Cait Flanders, ADVENTURES IN OPTING OUT
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[1:42]Happy New Year everybody! It's January 1st 2021. I'm recording this ahead of time, but if you're listening it means that we got to 2021 and I know I'm somewhere out there being really happy
[1:54]and excited today and I hope you are too. I hope you had a great New Year's Eve and that this year brings lots of joy and health and happiness for all of you and just a bright and happy New Year and let's get 2020 just out of the picture.
[2:08]Anyway, onto the next. I hope that you will follow along and come on the ride with me in 2021 for all of the amazing podcast guests. I have lined up. I'm already just so excited about all of them.
[2:19]So this one will kick it off, but then there are so many more that I want you to hear. So many authors you might not know about. Topics maybe you want to learn a little more about novels that are just immersive and amazing and so much more.
[2:32]So come along and I'm so happy you're listening. I'm going to try and make it the best year possible for this podcast and I'm so grateful to you for listening.
[2:40]Okay, with that being said, Kate Flanders is the author of Wall Street Journal bestseller the year of less described by Vogue as a fascinating look into a living experiment that we can all learn from.
[2:51]It has been translated into 10 languages and has sold more than 200,000 copies. Kate's story has been shared in the New York Times, The Guardian, The Globe, Oprah.com, Forbes and more.
[3:02]Her latest book Adventures and Opting Out is a field guide to opting out of expectations, changing paths and leading a more intentional life. She always has an adventure in the calendar and believes in leaving every place better than she found it.
[3:14]I mean, how great is that? Enjoy our episode.
[3:16]Welcome, Kate. Thank you so much for coming on momstone have time to read books. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me.
[3:22]So, Adventures and Opting Out, a field guide to leading an intentional life. This is so timely. I feel like we have all sort of opted out of everything, like not perhaps by choice, but here we are, right?
[3:35]We've taken everyone's taken a new path from what they thought and yet here comes your book.
[3:40]So, tell listeners a little about what made you take a new path. What did you opt out of and why?
[3:47]And I'd particularly like to hear more about this is like 100 questions in one, but I really want to hear more about quitting drinking because you talked a lot about that in the book, but I feel like that was a whole other book waiting to happen.
[4:01]Yeah, so I mean, you're right that we I think have all unintentionally opted out this year. I think that we are forced to opt out of a lot of things that we used to do.
[4:12]And the book is about making intentional choices, right? So deciding that something is no longer working for you or even just like one of the things I like about the book or just the idea is like you don't always have to make a different decision because something bad has happened.
[4:27]Sometimes you make a different decision actually when everything's kind of okay, but you're still noticing that you just want something different.
[4:35]Like there's something that you've been curious about and it's time to follow that path or just see where your curiosity leads you.
[4:40]But things that I've opted out of in the past drinking was the first one.
[4:45]And I would say in terms of timeline, I stopped drinking in 2012 and I was only 27 years old.
[4:53]So, you know, if I was a little older, that might not seem, or maybe might not seem as big of a decision, but I think quitting drinking in your 20s.
[5:01]It just it changes a lot about your life like it changes a lot about your lifestyle and who you connect with and yeah, how you spend your time.
[5:09]And also how you, at least for me, how you deal with things.
[5:14]So I'll just list like things that I've opted out of drinking, I would say shopping. There was a year, actually two years where I didn't buy anything, except for a few things like if I absolutely needed them.
[5:25]So shopping sort of that consumerist lifestyle.
[5:29]It changed career paths multiple times. So originally being someone who I'm from a government town and the story is truly like once you get in your in for life, your set.
[5:39]And my parents both work for the government. So to say one day, actually I'm going to go to the private sector. I guess actually a big deal.
[5:47]And then eventually leaving that to work for myself. And then even within that and work within working for myself switching from being a full time freelancer to now being a full time author.
[5:58]There's a whole bunch of changes in there. And then I've also moved multiple times like decided to live in different cities. And the last or sort of biggest move that I made was at the end of 2018, I gave up my apartment so that I could travel full time, which looks a little bit different this year.
[6:14]But yeah, that was sort of the last one. But but drinking like fundamentally deciding to stop drinking, taught me everything that I would need to do the other things being that it teaches me still but taught me how to become
[6:29]comfortable being the only sober person in the room. So essentially being comfortable being the odd one out and choosing that like choosing to be different from most of the people that you're around.
[6:40]It meant that I had to change my coping mechanisms because drinking was something that got me through whether it was like awkward situations, social life, certainly my dating life and got me through tougher moments.
[6:53]I had identified that really until I stopped. But I really was someone I don't I don't instill I didn't and still don't identify as an alcoholic because I wasn't chemically dependent on alcohol, but I used it to get through everything.
[7:06]So any any bad negative feeling that came up I use drinking as a coping mechanism and to wipe all of those things out. Yeah, like it has been a lot over the years, but drinking taught me everything like not not drinking anymore has taught me everything that I need.
[7:20]Were there any moments and I know you referenced some of them, especially as you tried to stop drinking we would go a little bit and then you kind of regress and have like a bender of a weekend and things like that.
[7:30]And I know you're not identifying as an alcoholic and that's cool, but just as like getting rid of any coping strategy.
[7:38]Was there a moment that was like your hitting bottom where you're like, I better stop the drinking, like it could have been I better stop the XYZ at that moment right.
[7:48]Tell me your deepest darkest worst moment that made you change your life.
[7:53]No, I think there's two things right like I don't identify as an alcoholic and I actually think that there's something interesting about that of things don't need to be the worst in order for you to want to change it.
[8:06]It was still it was still no no I'm I'm more saying like from the intentional side of things I think that what I've done has and with drinking and all kinds of things is like I'm looking at at what are the results of my actions and which ones don't actually feel good.
[8:24]So drinking was one though where I did think about not drinking multiple times, I think the first time I very seriously considered that I was properly 20 or 21.
[8:39]And I remember I will say this like basically every time I drank I got blackout drunk and that could look different every time it was maybe I you know just lost an hour of the night or maybe I lost everything after the first hour of the night.
[8:56]And so when I was 21, yeah I was 2021 I remember going to this party and then I don't really remember anything and then I woke up in my bed.
[9:05]And I was very good he took me four days to piece together what happened like contacting multiple friends and trying to figure out how I had gotten home and figured out that what had happened was I had I had called a cab.
[9:17]I left the party and I guess was tired and I sat down like on the sidewalk waiting for the cab I must have fallen asleep there my friends parents found me and then they put me in their van and literally carried me into my house and I have no memory of any of it.
[9:35]And that was not like that was probably extreme, but in terms of the blackout it wasn't it was extreme and that someone saw me in it and had to help me through it just just curious here.
[9:48]Were you drinking that much or do you maybe have some sort of like reaction to alcohol.
[9:53]I was definitely drinking that much.
[9:55]Yeah, yeah, maybe there's an allergy and I'll just solve your.
[10:00]Oh, right here. Oh, my gosh, right. Like if only it was that easy. But no, I, I don't know,
[10:07]there was this thing about drinking two for me where it truly made up a portion of my identity
[10:12]that I was someone who could drink. I could keep up with the guys. I never got sick. I rarely
[10:17]got hungover. And like, it was almost like those were points of pride. And because I wasn't
[10:23]really good at anything else in my kind of teens and early 20s, it's like that is what
[10:29]formed truly a huge piece of my identity. So then to give it up in my like mid to late 20s
[10:35]was a massive shock. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Also, it's hard when everybody around you is drunk
[10:43]and they all find themselves hilarious and they're mostly not funny. Like when you're the
[10:49]only sober person in a crowd of junk people, it is not that amusing. So yeah.
[10:55]No, my, my dad. And so my dad, he got sober when I was like 10 and a half, 11 years old. And
[11:02]I do believe that that is one of the reasons that the topic of sobriety even seemed like something
[11:06]that would be possible because then I grew up in a house where my parents didn't drink.
[11:11]Right. So that is, that was my role model growing up. But you know, I remember having conversations
[11:16]with him in that early days that I couldn't get on board with, he would say things like,
[11:20]it's kind of funny now. And I'm like, like to watch other people. And like, no, it's not,
[11:26]it's really annoying. I've been there too. It's, it's annoying. I, I, I back you up.
[11:33]Luckily, no, there are no parties. So it's not even an issue. I didn't mean to focus too much
[11:38]on the drinking. The burst so much in your book, obviously, aside from that. And you know,
[11:42]your whole analogy is this, you know, sort of too pronged mountain and coming down in all the
[11:46]different ways and from packing to everything that where you traverse this sort of path.
[11:52]And one thing I thought was interesting, and I guess it's sort of related to this being an
[11:55]outsider now in your friend group with the drinking is how to deal with the aftermath of making
[12:01]a decision that might be right for you, but that sets you outside the comfort zone of your entire
[12:06]life. Right. So I was looking at some of the things that you had pointed out that, you know,
[12:11]you might, you know, this is sort of like the warning bullet point list, right? Like, you might feel
[12:15]as though you don't have anything in common with anyone anymore. You might feel like you have
[12:19]nothing contribute to conversations. You might feel like you can't relate to experiences and you go on
[12:22]a, I mean, not on it on in a bad way. You elaborate. And, you know, this could have
[12:28]be applied to so many things. I mean, I felt like I could have written that bullet point list
[12:32]when I got divorced, right? As a mom with little kids, right? It's like suddenly everybody else is
[12:38]married. And you're like, well, that's not my experience right now. Like, I don't have a husband at
[12:43]home, who I'm nervous and, you know, or whatever it is they're complaining about or whatever.
[12:48]But I think it's interesting because people don't really talk about what it's like in life
[12:53]as adults to suddenly like, almost like I'm envisioning like a jello mold and you like
[13:00]squish out just enough that you're like not really in the mold anymore, but you're still attached
[13:05]to the jello. Yeah. I mean, it makes me think one of the pieces around why it can be applied to
[13:11]so many different things is it's like that was a piece of your identity, which means it was how
[13:17]people connected with you and or how you connected with other people. And then it's gone. And so
[13:22]that can be so many different things that we're going through. It can also be bigger things like
[13:26]if you are grieving or just healing from something and you're sort of deep in process,
[13:33]that can be a very sort of isolating period of time. That is certainly something that I think that
[13:38]we've probably all collectively, but at different times been dealing with this year. But it is hard.
[13:44]It is hard to to feel like no one sees you or hears you anymore. Like no one really gets you
[13:54]anymore. And it's especially hard when you choose that. Like when you choose to enter that space
[14:01]and it's not even that I wrote the book being like here I have all the answers. But one of the
[14:07]main reasons I wrote it was because I just thought we have to acknowledge this. There's so many
[14:11]self-help books that just sort of give you the 10 steps to follow or here's the goal in making these
[14:18]changes. But I don't often read a lot about like just people describing the actual human
[14:25]experience that you are going to have when you decide to change your life. Because it's not just
[14:29]that you change like a whole bunch of other things changed because you have changed. And so it's not
[14:35]as simple as you're saying like oh it was like let go and it'll get better. I mean trust me I'm
[14:41]a firm believer in sort of non-attachment and how that can help us in certain ways. And like
[14:48]doesn't mean that hard things don't come up or that you're not going to have to navigate
[14:51]difficult feelings and difficult situations. And I just thought we just need to at least be
[14:55]addressing this. And if this book is even just like a conversation starter maybe someone else will
[15:00]write like all the tangible ways of how to navigate all of it. But I just thought we have
[15:05]this art acknowledging this. We can't just keep writing self-help books that are that are just
[15:09]promising like simple solutions and don't talk about the actual emotional ups and downs that come
[15:14]with it. Yeah maybe it could have been called you know adventures and opting out like what comes next
[15:20]or like after the self-help book ends or something. And you know almost like a continuation right
[15:25]like okay you decided you're gonna have a big January and stop doing XYZ now what so yeah you know
[15:32]you also have obviously moved so much in your life and I know you talk about as a child how you
[15:36]move so much with your family and then as a grown-up and then now of course traveling or whatever
[15:42]I'm curious what you're doing now in place of being a nomad but I wonder if there's like a correlation
[15:49]between kids who moved a lot or military families or just people who have had to have change
[15:56]in the ability to sort of pick up and change again right I would think yes I would think like
[16:01]okay well you've learned to adapt you know it's possible and so okay you're gonna try it versus
[16:07]people who maybe their parents are married and they've lived in the same home until they go to
[16:11]college and they go to college and they come back to their hometown or something and then
[16:15]therefore is to make a decision like oh maybe I'm drinking too much maybe then they don't have
[16:20]them mental sort of I don't know roadmap if you will to put that into place what do you think?
[16:26]Yeah I think that makes perfect sense I think that an extra piece of that would also be around
[16:33]probably relating to people and or building relationships and also maintaining relationships I get a
[16:39]lot of questions or just comments from people saying like you seem to have friends all over or
[16:43]friends from all these different periods of your life and I don't think I had ever really
[16:49]actively thought about if that was true or how that was possible but I have reflected on it a bit
[16:54]more this year obviously as we're all communicating at a distance more and and people are really
[17:00]learning how to check in with each other more I actually think that also came from moving around
[17:05]all the time and and also having a dad who he worked for the Coast Guard his whole career
[17:10]so he was home for 28 days and then gone for 28 days so I've also learned a lot about how to
[17:15]maintain like long distance relationships essentially but I do think that you're right I think that
[17:21]if you have really been raised where things are constantly changing you do learn I think just sort
[17:29]of how adaptable we are I would say that that like the word adaptable is something that I
[17:34]has really resonated for me this year and also has been nice to see other people recognizing
[17:40]in themselves that they are more adaptable than they thought because of course like even I at the
[17:44]very beginning had really intense anxiety about what this year was gonna look like but reminding
[17:50]myself like you know if I can settle into whatever this looks like let's say for a year and a half
[17:56]because we were all promised like two weeks two weeks and like things get better and I just thought
[17:59]that is not gonna work for my anxiety if I can settle into like whatever this life is this is my
[18:05]life for a year and a half I will be able to I don't know at least get through it like I just I have
[18:10]to find whatever my base is sort of for this but to answer your other question I've been at my
[18:14]dad's house this earlier because literally like what what else could I do and also because we had
[18:21]finished everything for the book I had a flight book to go back to Europe where I would have
[18:25]probably spent most of the rest of this year and I would have come home for the holidays like
[18:29]those were the original plans and yeah sort of like okay well what what now and so we just had
[18:37]conversations and it was like my dad's still gone sort of half the year and it was just like okay
[18:42]well I'll pay rent like I'm a grown up I'm not gonna live at home rent free or anything so I'll
[18:47]pay rent and we'll be roommates for up to 18 months and see what happens after that and it has
[18:56]worked and also been challenging like it's challenging to live with your parents as an adult
[19:02]and the silver lining of it is like I think we'll have a much different relationship as adults
[19:07]now than we would have if I had just left home at like 20 and never come back. You see another book
[19:13]information here. You're your dad. Yeah like living at home ventures in living back in the
[19:24]masters. Oh my gosh wait to that I actually wonder what it's gonna be like when everybody tries to
[19:32]leave again like you know this whole two weeks and now it's been you know you said you kind of got
[19:36]used to this 18 months or longer I am like not allowing myself to look forward anymore like I am
[19:41]like this is in my head I'm like this is life now it will never change and then I'll be pleasantly
[19:47]surprised so but in in actual of course things will probably I hope I'd will and get back to normal
[19:54]at some point and how are people gonna cope with that maybe you become like so closely to dad
[19:58]and everybody feels the sense of a lot.
[20:00]us that the closeness that we're all having with our media, you know, quarantiners is going to
[20:06]lift and then we'll all be inexplicably sad while we're out in the world again, expecting to be,
[20:12]you know, jumping up and down for joy. So who knows? Who knows? Who knows? I mean, I do think that
[20:17]there will be, if people don't stick with it, I think there will be a longing for how slow and
[20:23]present people were this year. Like, if that part goes away, we've been forced to look
[20:32]sort of at a much smaller perspective than usual, which is immediate family, closest friends,
[20:38]our home, our hometown, like wherever we're staying. We're so localized right now and I do
[20:44]think that when it expands, my assumption is there will be a bit of a longing for that.
[20:49]Yeah, you're probably right. Then we'll all need to opt into that. Yeah, that's it from my book,
[20:54]I do. How are you working on any other writing projects right now?
[20:59]Kind of, I mean, I don't know that either of them are going to be comedy thing, but I do have,
[21:05]I don't want to say that it's like a novel, but I'm like playing around with fiction for the first
[21:10]time since I was probably 18. Like, and I don't actually know that anyone will ever read it,
[21:17]but even for now, if it's just like, it's nice to be trying something different and something
[21:23]that's a little bit challenging or a lot challenging. But I actually also, I don't know that I
[21:28]would call this maybe an opt out, but I actually, like, thanks to COVID and the fact that
[21:33]everything is online, at least here still, I'm actually decided to go back to school just part time,
[21:38]and so I'm taking two classes at my local university in January. And it may just be two classes
[21:45]and I'll never take any more again, but I thought, I have a curiosity, I'll follow it a little
[21:51]bit. We'll see what happens. I love that. Yeah, we'll see. Okay.
[21:56]In the meantime, do you have any advice for aspiring authors? Oh my gosh, I almost feel like this year
[22:04]has shown like to not be afraid of whatever your idea is because we do only get one chance at it.
[22:14]And so even if no one ever reads it, like just following it, you know, I didn't actually know that
[22:20]anyone would understand what adventures and opting out was going to be. And it does only take one,
[22:26]like one person, whether it's another writer or it's an agent or one publisher, like it only
[22:32]takes one person to say that they get it, that they can see it. So just to try it. Yeah. And perhaps
[22:39]take a few classes. See what you can drum up. Take a few glasses. I think another, just to give
[22:45]lessons on your behalf from your books is that any big life change is also great copy for a
[22:53]memoir, right? Can you go here? Stop shopping. And there's your book right there.
[23:00]Apparently, yeah, that one was, you know, really interesting. I wrote about the shopping ban on my
[23:05]blog and with no intention ever of writing anything about it after that. Like I just thought
[23:11]it would be over and I was done. And then other people said, hey, that could be a book and I went,
[23:16]okay, so that is true. I guess also too, just like you do not know who is reading your content
[23:23]and who might think that you have more to say. Very interesting. It's a good encouragement for
[23:29]just writing something and putting it somewhere because you never know if it stays inside you,
[23:34]no one's responding to it. That's for sure. Yeah, that's definitely true. Yeah. So basically,
[23:40]I'm just giving my own advice. Thank you for coming on my show where I just don't even
[23:46]interview you. Thank you. Well, thank you, Kate. Thank you for your advice and mine. And thank you
[23:54]for, you know, sharing all of your adventures. And I can't wait to see your next book about your
[24:00]time with your dad. I'm with my dad. He's going to laugh so much. I can't wait to tell him about it.
[24:06]At least an essay. At least an essay. An essay that I could probably do that. There you go.
[24:13]Awesome. Thank you. Thanks. Bye.
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[24:40]that you are looking for. Thanks. Thanks for listening to this episode of mom. Don't have time to read
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