Ashley Audrain, THE PUSH

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[1:42]Ashley Audrain previously worked as a publicity director at Penguin Books Canada.

[1:47]Prior to Penguin, she worked in public relations.

[1:49]Ashley began writing her first novel The Push after leaving her job in 2015.

[1:54]Her novel is snapped up in a series of record breaking deals around the world

[1:57]and has sold in over 34 territories.

[2:00]Recently, hey day television, the production company

[2:02]run by once upon a time in Hollywood and marriage story producer David Heyman acquired the

[2:07]film and TV rights.

[2:08]Ashley will serve as an executive producer on the adaptation.

[2:11]The push has received rave reviews from best selling authors like Lisa Jewell,

[2:15]Kristen Hannah, and Amy Maloy, author of which by the way are all songs podcast.

[2:20]The page turning intense drama discusses the expectations of motherhood

[2:24]that we are taught not to question such as nature versus nurture and unconditional love.

[2:29]Welcome Ashley.

[2:30]Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books.

[2:33]Thank you Zibi.

[2:34]Thank you for having me.

[2:35]As I was telling you before we started recording, I am a huge fan of your podcast.

[2:39]I love it.

[2:40]I listen to it every day.

[2:41]You I don't know how you do it, but the content you put out for us, for all of us,

[2:45]listen or we just appreciate it so much, especially during during these COVID days when

[2:49]you just need something to get through the day and you're always there.

[2:52]Thank you so much for saying that.

[2:56]It really really means a lot to hear, especially from an author who's book.

[3:00]I like so enjoyed to know that you were like out there listening to other interviews.

[3:04]It's awesome.

[3:06]I have to start with just telling you a funny story that my son, so I listened to your podcast

[3:10]a lot in the car like when we're driving to school and driving home from school and my son,

[3:14]he's now five.

[3:15]I always, you know, he humers me and listens long.

[3:18]much of me all the time to your podcast, but he always, especially when he was a bit younger,

[3:22]he would hear your opening and he would say, mom, why is this lady saying you don't have time

[3:26]to read books? She's saying you can't read books. You don't have time.

[3:29]And it's just so funny. And I have to kind of, you're trying to explain to him what it means,

[3:34]but he's always very concerned about the title of your podcast and what that means for me,

[3:38]but I have a shirt.

[3:39]Well, maybe I should put a disclaimer if that be now.

[3:42]It's just a joke.

[3:44]I read lots of books. I love reading books and I have an almost, almost six-year-old, but

[3:50]now he's so five. And the other day he was like in the corner and he was like holding up some like

[3:56]the little toy and he's like, hi, I'm silly. Oh, and your mom's don't have time to read books.

[4:04]They're always listening.

[4:05]Yeah, always listening.

[4:07]Five is the cutest age, by the way. I'm like really sad that it's coming to an end, having

[4:11]live through a new four times. Anyway, okay, can we talk about your amazing book, The Push,

[4:17]which is alternately chilling and life-affirming and worrisome. And I just wanted to like run out and

[4:25]like find a therapist to like throw in the pages. And I was like, oh my gosh, now's when she needs

[4:31]a therapist. Wait, now she needs a child's psychiatrist. Wait, now, oh no. And then last night,

[4:37]in some scenes, I'm like, I like have to close my eyes. Anyway, so The Push, tell listeners, please,

[4:45]what The Push is about and what inspired you to read it? Sure. So The Push is about a woman named

[4:50]Blithe Connor. And she comes from a history of women who have struggled deeply with motherhood

[4:56]in various ways, but she's quite determined that her experience is going to be different and that

[5:00]she's going to sort of eat as warm and pathetic present mother that she never had. And so she

[5:06]and her husband have their first child, a daughter, and her name is Violet. And at first,

[5:12]Blithe sort of goes through the various kind of typical early days of motherhood that we can all

[5:16]really do, tired and sort of just overwhelmed. But then as Blithe sort of, or as Violet gets a bit

[5:22]older, she kind of starts to realize there's something wrong with Violet. There's something different

[5:26]about her. She's quite aloof and doesn't really express much emotion. She's not very attached to

[5:31]her mother. And as she gets a bit older, she starts to witness some behavior that she feels is

[5:35]malicious towards other children. But the problem of course is that her husband cannot see this,

[5:40]nobody can see this. And she's really the only one who believes this about her daughter. And so

[5:45]they sort of try to move on and in their marriage and have another baby, Sam, who's born shortly

[5:51]after. And in Sam, she sort of finds that connection that she had hoped to have as a mother with

[5:56]her child until something very tragic happens in the family. And they're all sort of forced to

[6:01]kind of face what has happened and who their daughter is and who Blithe herself is. And the rest

[6:07]of the novel is sort of looks at that unraveling of the family from there. And so that's sort of

[6:11]what happens. I have to say, the whole time I was reading the book, I kept flashing back to your

[6:18]opening scene of the book, which makes you wonder how did they arrive there? You have basically,

[6:24]I don't think I'm giving anything away because it's opening scene. But you have the mother in the

[6:29]car, like looking in right through the window. And you're wondering why, like what is going on

[6:35]had it shanned up there. And as you go, you still don't know, like what is it? What, how is this

[6:41]happening? So it's almost suspense, but it's not a thriller. Like how would you even describe,

[6:46]because I don't I don't view this as a thriller. It's more like a psychological drama of sorts,

[6:51]but yet there's this element, this big question mark hanging over it.

[6:55]Yeah, it's interesting you say that because a lot of people have described it as a thriller,

[6:59]and I didn't really set out to write a thriller or wasn't kind of what I had intended. I think

[7:04]I love like a lot of us do just a page turning book, like something that you just want to find out

[7:10]not so much what happened, but sort of why, like why did that happen? Why have we got there?

[7:15]And it's funny, one of my editors described it as sort of emotional suspense, which I thought

[7:20]was maybe a better description for it than thriller, because I think people who enjoy thrillers

[7:24]will hopefully enjoy this book because of the pace of it, but it's really more emotional

[7:28]suspense than anything. And it's really sort of more of a family drama, I think,

[7:32]than kind of a straight thriller where you're trying to figure out what happened.

[7:35]And you can definitely tell in the writing just how close to early childhood you are.

[7:42]And you can tell in some books like, okay, you know, maybe this author has young children,

[7:48]maybe she doesn't. And you know, with a gal, you never really know how old anybody is, right?

[7:53]Like, I'm not looking at the author photo. I don't have any context. I just always

[7:56]am like diving in. And in this book, I was like, this author definitely has had children recently.

[8:04]Because you remember all of it. And it's like, I started finding myself wondering what

[8:09]your review on motherhood was, because there seems to be so much ambivalence on the part of the

[8:14]characters. Did you feel that way? And then I was thinking, if you didn't have any of these

[8:18]ambivalence feelings, how would you have put these characters together? And even just like the

[8:24]sort of inherited trauma of generation after generation of mothers who are disappointing their

[8:30]children. Tell me about where this is coming from for you. It's interesting. Yeah. So I started

[8:35]writing this book on my son was my first child. My son was six months old. And when he was born,

[8:40]he had some health challenges that we didn't know about. We didn't expect them. And so, you know,

[8:45]sort of put you in this situation where you're planning for a baby and you're planning,

[8:48]you know, you enjoy your pregnancy and you have this healthy pregnancy and you think everything

[8:52]will be fine. And then when he was two weeks old, we discovered it was not. And we were going to be

[8:56]spending a lot of time basically living in the children's hospital and trying to get him better

[9:01]and figure out how to manage the problems that he was having. And so that was a, I mean, we know,

[9:06]we know how hard those early days of motherhood already were. And at two weeks old, you know,

[9:10]two weeks into kind of have everything sort of completely changed and sort of flipped upside down

[9:15]was very challenging. You know, like, I loved him and I loved, you know, it loved being his mother,

[9:19]but I didn't, I just didn't know, I guess I was learning kind of have a mother within the walls of

[9:24]a hospital. And you know, it was like nurses helping you instead of, you know, your family members.

[9:28]And so it was just, it was very challenging, obviously, but it also just, yeah, it just really made

[9:34]me think a lot in those days about those expectations of motherhood and that, you know, we really

[9:41]society sort of teaches us to think that it's going to be a certain way and that we're

[9:44]going to feel a certain way and it's going to look a certain way. And then when it isn't,

[9:49]you know, it's very isolated, very isolating experience and you really don't feel like you can

[9:54]really relate to anybody. I remember sort of all my friends having babies at the same time, which

[9:58]at, you know, which at first.

[10:00]like such a wonderful thing. And then when my experience ended up being just so different and so

[10:04]far from the experience they were having it was hard. And so that I think that's that those were

[10:10]kind of just the things that I was sort of mulling over in those days. And then having sort of,

[10:14]you know, the very, you know, the mind that I do sort of kind of taking it a bit further and sort

[10:19]of wondering like my gosh, like this was not my experience, like with my son, but what would happen

[10:24]if you if it was even worse, if you didn't like your child or you couldn't feel like you

[10:29]loved your child or your child, you know, did something that you couldn't forgive, like what,

[10:34]like there are, you know, or you really regretted having that child, like what would that feel like?

[10:38]And so those were kind of the things I sort of started writing about. It was sort of,

[10:43]it was the stuff I was writing about was so much darker than what I was going through. I mean,

[10:47]I was going through a hard time. The stuff I was writing about was darker and maybe that was a way

[10:51]of sort of working through or coping with what kind of I was going through at the time. It's kind of

[10:56]just really just exploring that. And that and those were kind of the seeds of thinking that grew

[11:00]into sort of the character of life and her daughter Violet and the story that became the push.

[11:04]And then and then for the, you know, once I sort of kind of exploring blight and figuring

[11:08]out who she was, you know, especially kind of through revisions, I sort of, I started to understand

[11:13]that I couldn't really understand life without understanding the women that she came from.

[11:17]And so that was one kind of the backstory started to develop, which is basically the story of

[11:22]Blyce mother and Blyce grandmother and the challenges that they went through. And so that,

[11:26]and I was very much interested in that idea of inherited trauma and kind of what we carry

[11:30]from the women, women before us and how much of that is kind of this maternal anxiety and how

[11:35]much of it just true, you know, in our, literally in our DNA and our genes. And so that, that really

[11:40]interest to me, although I should, I feel like I must disclaim this on every interview I do that

[11:44]my mother is nothing like my mother's in the book or my grandmother. So I feel like I over the

[11:50]I had a feeling this was coming. I could, I could tell you are going up and get going to that

[11:55]place. I do not blame your mom. She's off the hook. You are all from, you know, our little limited

[12:02]interaction. It's really funny because I didn't talk to my mom. My parents are at really anybody

[12:07]much when I was writing this book about what it was. It was such a sort of internal and living

[12:10]within me. And then when I realized that this was going to happen and the book was going to be

[12:14]published, I had to tell my mom what the book was about. And she was like, oh, what an

[12:18]interesting, you know, that yeah, it was a bit, it was a lot for her to take in, but yes, you know,

[12:23]it's interesting too how at one point you have life go to the support group for mothers whose

[12:30]kids have done sort of un-partitable offenses, right? Because I always think about that when I hear

[12:35]about, you know, the mother of this shooter or the mother of this, like, how does that mother

[12:41]feel? Like, of course, the mothers of the victims, right? Yeah, why? You know, you do your best

[12:46]with your kids, right? And I think as parents, like, I know I've had moments where I'm like,

[12:51]oh my God, I cannot believe my child did that. Like, and then it reflects on me or reflects on my

[12:56]parenting. What does it say? And then you wonder, like, you did sort of let's extrapolate and make

[13:02]this the biggest mess ever than what, right? Well, I think that I always think that too. I mean,

[13:08]when you hear something in the news or see something that's happened, I mean, I always think of

[13:12]the parents. And I always think, you know, if the biological parents were the people who raised

[13:17]them and were involved in their lives. And my mind always goes there to think, also, like, what

[13:22]did the parents know about their child? And did they ever suspect? And did they ever think that

[13:27]something like that could happen? Did they believe the humans they were raising capable of that? And

[13:32]if they did, did they say anything to anybody? Or would you say anything to anybody? And it kind

[13:37]of comes back to that question that I think I tried to explore in the book, which is like,

[13:41]ultimately, what do we owe our children? Like, what do we owe them? We, you know, in many cases,

[13:46]birth them and raise them. And, you know, what's our obligation in helping them to, you know,

[13:53]live in this world? I mean, it's really interesting. I mean, a lot of it comes back to just the

[13:58]nature versus nurture argument, of course. But it almost goes further than that to just,

[14:02]you know, like, I don't know, just kind of asking yourself, like, what are the links that you would

[14:06]go to? And what would be, it's really more of an ethical debate. But yeah, it's funny that you

[14:11]say that because I, my mind always goes over there. There was just in the paper this week. And

[14:15]this episode will come out not this week, but now we're in, I don't even know what we are.

[14:19]November pre thanksgiving. And there was just like on the New York Post, some man pushed a woman

[14:24]onto the subway. And he had done so also in January. And the mother had said, don't let my child

[14:30]back out on the streets. And they did. And he did it again. And she's like, I told you, and it's

[14:35]her face in the paper being like, you know, and he was adopted, not that that matters. I don't

[14:40]know, it's just like so on on the theme we're talking about not necessarily all the themes, but

[14:45]wait. So let's go back to the fact that you had a six month old son and decided to try to

[14:48]write a book at that point. And that the book ended up becoming this, which is like a really

[14:53]she's a good book, not like the, you know, tired musings of a completely strapped, stressed out

[14:59]new mother. Tell me about that undertaking and how you did it. Well, I think it did start as the

[15:06]tired musings of a long through a lot since then, it's gone through a lot of revisions since then.

[15:12]But, you know, I think it's interesting. I had always wanted to write and sort of couldn't, I just,

[15:18]I was writing. I was, you know, taking writing courses at night and writing on the weekends.

[15:23]And, but you know, I had like another full time job and career. And, you know, I didn't,

[15:28]couldn't afford to do like an MFA when I was, you know, in school or I honestly felt like I

[15:33]couldn't really afford to pursue writing for a lot of my life because I needed to, you know,

[15:37]go to university and work part time to pay for that and then get a job that could pay to bills

[15:41]and I left and writing just never seemed never felt attainable to me writing as a career. And so I

[15:46]just didn't pursue it that way. What, what, what kind of jobs did you have? Well, I worked in public

[15:51]relations in like public relations agencies. And then after working in agencies for a while,

[15:56]I did move over to publishing and worked at Penguin Canada as a publicity director. So,

[16:00]so I was just really focused on that and writing when I could. And then, even though, you know,

[16:04]I would have loved to just to be a writer full time or to consider myself that would be published.

[16:09]And so when I had Oscar when I had my son, I realized I wasn't going to go back to work after that

[16:13]because I mentioned because he had these health challenges and life just felt different. And I

[16:17]just couldn't really see myself being able to bounce both of those things. And then, and so it was

[16:22]around that six month mark where I feel like, you know, we weren't spending as much time in the

[16:26]hospital and I was home a bit more. And we were lucky to have a bit of babysitting help through the

[16:30]week. And so I used to those hours to write. And it's funny, you had another unauthorized show,

[16:35]Ruman, along on it. Yeah. It was such a good interview. And I thought he put it just perfectly. He

[16:41]talked about when you have children sometimes, it can really clarify for you what you really want

[16:45]out of your life and who you want to be and kind of who you want to show up in as the world,

[16:50]in the world. Like, you know, who do you want to be for those children? Who do you want to be

[16:53]for yourself? Your time becomes so limited when you have kids. And I really sort of thinking about

[16:59]that limited time very differently. And I just thought, I need to do it now. This is when I need to

[17:03]pursue this because I this is the time. And so yes, I was tired and exhausted. And it's very hard

[17:09]to write during those months. And it is a privilege to have help with childcare. That is for sure.

[17:14]And if I didn't have help with childcare, those few times a week, I wouldn't have been able to do

[17:19]that, I don't think. Because that's really how it started was, you know, the, our babysitter would

[17:25]walk through the door. And I would like run past her with my laptop under my arm, like running to the

[17:29]coffee shop on the corner, trying to get in as much as I could while she was here. So it wasn't

[17:34]easy. And I don't, I think, yeah, I think without help, it is very, very difficult. But that was

[17:40]just, and there was just so much on my mind then too. And it's funny, it's sort of, you know,

[17:44]a lot of writing advice you get is like, you know, write the story that's just burning inside you,

[17:48]or that you just feel like only you can tell. And I did have a bit of that. I had this sort of

[17:52]creative energy around that time that I just felt compelled to do it. And I don't know. And looking

[17:58]back now, of course, I'm like, how did I know how I did that? Like that was, it seemed, I don't know.

[18:03]I don't know if I could, if everything were to happen all over again, if I could do it again,

[18:06]but it just felt like what I needed to do at that time, if that makes sense.

[18:09]How can I even ask, how is your son and this might be personal, but is he okay?

[18:14]He is. Thank you for asking that supply. And yes, so he still, he has a chronic

[18:18]illness, a chronic condition. So he will have that, you know, forever, but, but it is very

[18:23]manageable now. And he is just thriving and is just like the most incredible five year old, almost

[18:30]six year old, like yours. And so now it doesn't even feel, I mean, now those days feel so far

[18:34]behind us and things felt, you know, so much worse because we've just, he's doing so well and

[18:38]learned how to manage it. And so it does get better. And tell me, I know you said earlier,

[18:46]I can't remember if we were recording yet or not that he was upset that I was always talking

[18:50]in your car radio about how moms don't have time to read books. So tell me about your like reading

[18:55]life. Are you reading a lot around the house? Like do you have books everywhere? What's your like

[18:59]relationship to reading like these days? Or do you just not have the time? Yeah, we do, we read a lot

[19:04]in our house. I think we do, we do read a lot of my kids love books, which is great. I mean,

[19:07]definitely a nighttime reader. I have a hard time reading during the day that I read every night.

[19:11]And I think that, and it's amazing how fast that can add up if you just commit to doing it at

[19:15]night. I love to read new releases. I love to read new views. I love to read like whatever the newest

[19:21]book. I'll just probably lie, I love your podcast because you have many like authors who've

[19:24]books are just coming out. So it's such a nice pairing with reading what's publishing at the moment.

[19:28]But yeah, we do read a lot and they think, you know, I think it's so true that, you know, your kids,

[19:33]you know, I always make sure my kids know how much I'm reading. And I, you know, even though

[19:36]I'm reading at night when there's sleep, like the books are piled on the bedside and

[19:39]people do the library a lot. And my books a lot. And we feel like that, I hope that that kind of

[19:44]my kids kind of grow up with that, but we'll see. You know, it's so funny because I didn't set out

[19:49]to do books that were coming out now. In fact, I remember at the very beginning when I was trying to

[19:53]get an author on my podcast, the response was, well, you know, so once it doesn't have a book coming

[19:58]out, or like there.

[20:00]And I was like, so, like, it never occurred to me that you had that authors would only be interested in doing publicity around new books. And so it's sort of like, it's become this because that's what the authors need the most, but I never would have thought like I was like, oh, I'm going to go into, no, I'm going to like work my way around my book.

[20:21]But luckily most those authors come out with new books. And then I'm like, Oh, okay, let's talk about your new book, but really want to talk about

[20:28]10 years ago.

[20:30]It's funny that it's funny, isn't it? I think now I would have thought that too. Now that I'm writing, I sort of get it a little more because it's hard to kind of talk about one book and be writing another book, like you sort of have these two totally different worlds in your head.

[20:43]So I think, yeah, I think a lot of it is people, you know, needing to kind of shut out the world and dig into the next project and you can't even let your mind go back to the other book.

[20:50]So yeah, maybe that's part of it, but it is funny. Yeah, but there's something fun about always wanting to dig into whatever's new and whatever's out. And it's, you know, I'm definitely a news junkie. And so I like, I love reading the book that everyone's talking about the reviews are happening.

[21:04]And I just find that adds to the whole experience of reading for me. So there's some books that like, I know they're going to be big books, but like, I know I wouldn't have bought it.

[21:15]I don't know. This is like my big thing. I'm always like, Oh, I go to pitch that, but I didn't do it. My husband's always like, well, maybe you're passing on way too many bucks. I'm like, well, I just have to stay true to like the books I would want to read and like maybe it's going to win a huge prize.

[21:29]But like, I'm not sure I would want to read it. I don't know. I have to want to read it. I still have to want to read it. I still have to speak to you in some way.

[21:38]Not that I haven't read tons that don't go beyond my comfort zone. And I'm so grateful for them. But I don't know if it's just a little too. I don't know.

[21:46]I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about.

[21:48]I know.

[21:49]I know what you mean. You books. You'll have to speak to you. Even like you have to. I mean, I'm, I don't know what you're, I, if I'm not enjoying the book, I will put it down. I will never force myself to finish a book.

[21:57]Because that's just not what reading is to me. Reading is just about being swept away and enjoying, you know, enjoying it. Like enjoying every page and enjoying every minute that you're devoting to that book. And so if I'm not in love, I don't, I usually don't finish.

[22:08]So I get it. I totally got it.

[22:10]So as a big book lover, tell me about the thrill of the publication journey for you then from when you were starting to write it and then editing and then what happened.

[22:20]Well, she was really crazy. It was a wild ride for sure. Yeah, it took, I mean, I've worked on the book for about three years from that time. I was talking about when I first started to get it to where I felt like it was maybe ready to kind of go out there in the world.

[22:32]And I think because I worked in publishing for a couple of years, although I was not on the editorial side. I was on the publicity side.

[22:38]I sort of, you know, I had more when I think I had an idea of how kind of things worked and, you know, going to agents.

[22:44]But even though you have that knowledge, you still don't know what you have. And I hadn't shared it with that many people. And so I, yeah, as I shared it with if you hadn't got a few more readers, I started getting more comfortable with going out there with it.

[22:55]And, and again, because I worked in publishing, I had, you know, like kept friendly with, it was penguin Canada at the time. This was just before the penguin random house merger.

[23:03]With, they had a penguin Canada and a colon Stanley. And she and I would meet, you know, a couple times a year for tea or whatever, just to keep in touch.

[23:10]And I remember, so I met with her. This is when I was just, you know, working on my query letters getting ready to send it out to agents. And I met with her for tea.

[23:17]And I was sort of, I was so anxious to meet with her because I, she didn't know that I was writing. I had never, when I worked there, I've never talked about wanting to write a book or publish a book.

[23:24]And I didn't tell anybody that he used to work with and I was doing this because it just seemed, you know, like just such a dream, you know, pipe dream and was so interior living within me only.

[23:34]And so, but I, but I thought, okay, I should, I want to just get heard by us on on agents, like I had this list of agents I wanted to go to and just would love her opinion on it.

[23:42]And so I sat down for tea and I said, Oh, I, you know, I have something to tell you, I'm feeling a little nervous to tell you this, but, and she interrupted me and said, Oh, let me guess, you wrote a book.

[23:53]I thought I was, I thought you would like never guess that I would do this, but it was kind of funny, but she, you know, gave me some good advice and then it was sort of out to agents and from there, yeah, it was really a whirlwind.

[24:07]And I, it was life changing and I will never forget how that all felt to kind of even just be, you know, I will always remember and I will always save that sort of email back from my agent, Madeline Milburn, she's now my agent, but just her reaction to it.

[24:19]And just, you know, it's really incredible to see.

[24:22]Just, just this dream to see something that you've worked on for so long. You just don't know what it, if it will ever be anything and then to have these people kind of take a bet on you and have this kind of reaction to your work is really, it's a very like magical thing.

[24:34]And I will just never forget it. I know I don't take it for granted. And it's, it's, yeah, it was very, I feel very lucky to have had that experience.

[24:40]And then from there kind of very quickly sort of went out to publishers and went out into the world and.

[24:45]Yeah, and then in here. So it's, it was, it really was magical. It's kind of a funny word, but it just, that's just how it felt.

[24:52]It just felt kind of magical. Yeah, kind of incredible.

[24:55]It's amazing. Are you working on anything else?

[24:57]I am. I'm revising the second novel now. So, which has been a really fun process.

[25:03]The process of writing it has been very different than writing the first one just because I, you know, life looks a little different now.

[25:09]But there are a little bit older and we're in a pandemic.

[25:13]So that's another challenge. But yeah, so I've been working through that now and just kind of trying to, I mean, I'm so new at this still. So just kind of trying to figure out, I'm nice still interest trying to figure out how to write a book.

[25:23]This is the second one. So I, you know, just kind of working my way through it. And yeah, but can you give a glimmer of a plot or not really.

[25:31]Or is it too early? If it's too early, don't worry. I don't want to jinx it or anything.

[25:35]I feel like it's, I feel like it's for the same readers of the push. I feel like it's, I feel like it's for the same kind of readers. It's family drama. It's emotional suspense.

[25:44]It's motherhood and friend, female friendships and marriage. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. Yeah, enjoy writing it.

[25:51]That is like a combination that I would be like, yes, I'm, you know, signing up pre sale, like pre order. Okay.

[25:58]So sell me on that. That's good enough. I will definitely be reading that book.

[26:03]Do you have any advice to aspiring authors? Well, after I just said I have no idea what I'm doing.

[26:08]I don't believe that at all. So scratch that and be honest.

[26:14]I have advice. I think for new mothers, for mother, for new mothers were writing.

[26:20]So I think that's my experience. That's the place where I can offer advice. And I think it's sort of too part advice.

[26:26]The first part is that, you know, it's okay to ask for help to write your book specifically.

[26:33]Like it's so hard to ask for help period as a mother, as we know this or as a parent, especially when your kids are super young because you just have so much anxiety about other people caring for your kids and all of that.

[26:43]So the thing that I had to learn with the first book when my son was so little was that, you know, it was okay to ask my mom or have a babysitter or me obviously my husband, like whoever to say I need help for two hours and it's because I'm going to go write this book and kind of making that really a priority.

[27:02]Like showing people that writing a book is a priority for you and that writing is as important as the things that, you know, my husband got to go out to do like go to work where I was home.

[27:10]I'm going to a priority, you know, committing that time and letting other people know about it, giving yourself permission to make that as important as doing the errands and going to the grocery store and everything else.

[27:20]So that was kind of my number one, but I think the part two to that advice is that, you know, everybody says so many so many writers accomplish writers say you have to write every day.

[27:31]I believe that when you have little kids you cannot write every day and it's okay. And I did not write every day it took me longer to get this book done, but I could not write every day because I was exhausted and I was overwhelmed and babies get sick and things pop up and some days I just did not have it in me even if there was a blank slate, you know, for the rest of the day some days I just could not rally to write.

[27:54]So I think if you're a new month throw that advice out the window and just do your best just right when you can when you can get those windows of help right during those windows of help.

[28:03]You know, something I could do every day, which I do recommend doing every day is think about the book.

[28:07]You can think about the book even when you're not sitting down at your computer to write it.

[28:11]I think about the book at the park or think about the book when I was walking or think about the book when I was dancing the baby or whatever at night.

[28:18]I won't say which writer it is because I don't want to freak her out, but I live across the street from a can be an accomplished Canadian writer which is kind of funny and, you know, she has no idea who I am.

[28:28]So I thought I won't mention who she is, but I remember this is with my second and I was going through revisions on the push.

[28:35]She was at my second baby. She was such a bad sleeper and she was up so much to me so long to get her to bed. And I remember like standing in the door and you know my house like rocking her and bouncing her from like, you know, the witching hour until the wee hours of the morning.

[28:48]And looking at across the street and seeing this other writer's office light on and just thinking, oh my god, she's in their writing, she's in their writing her next book and she's able to write for hours on end.

[29:00]I would just sit there and bounce my daughter and think I wish I had that I wish I could do that and it made me so anxious thinking that this woman across the street had all this time and I did not because I had this crying baby.

[29:10]And so I, and I, so I couldn't write every day, but I could think about the book every day. I could make notes. I could come up with ideas.

[29:17]I could feel committed to the project every day in other ways. And so that is my best advice. I don't worry if you can't do it every day.

[29:24]So some people find having too much time to be like a paralysis of sorts as well. I mean, if you just have like blank pages in front of you and endless amounts of time, I find it harder to get anything done than when I have like two seconds and so writing is like an Instagram post and I'm like, well, that's all I got.

[29:42]I mean, I can't even remember last time I opened up pages or word on my computer.

[29:46]It's like anything I like what I go right now is in the body of an email or it's a post or it's something.

[29:52]And I'm like, well, you know what, it might not be this waiver ever, but this is what we got right now.

[29:56]You have at that time, right? You know, being

[30:00]on this heart. And so that's just, you got to do whatever you can get done.

[30:03]So you can't live up to other people's expectations of what it looks like to write

[30:06]a book. Yeah, whatever you're doing, because you look amazing. And I know I say

[30:10]like this, like I'm particularly disheveled, but you look so put together, like

[30:14]you're like, Kristin Bell, like, on her way to the Oscars and I'm just

[30:17]setting up my God with this great book. So I don't know for all the drama from

[30:21]the outside that we just looks like you haven't made. So it's very, very sweet.

[30:27]Thank you. So I'm really excited for you. And I can't wait for this to come

[30:31]out in January. And I'm just so thrilled. I'm so thrilled for you. And thanks for

[30:35]our little intro pre-recording and the conversation and the hours I got to spend

[30:40]with your novel, which were great to be. Thank you. That means so much coming from

[30:44]you truly. So thank you so much. Well, thank you. Let's do it touch. Okay, bye, bye, bye.

[30:52]Thanks so much to today's sponsor. My bookshop.org and my amazon

[30:57]store. You can check out my amazon store at amazon.com slash shop slash

[31:03]mom. Don't have time to read books. And my bookshop.org store, which is

[31:07]bookshop.org slash shop slash Zibi Owens. And I hope that you will find

[31:15]every book that you were looking for. Thanks. Thanks for listening to this

[31:18]episode of mom. So don't have time to read books. Don't forget to follow me on

[31:22]Instagram at zibi Owens and at mom. So don't have time to read books. Also

[31:26]sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual

[31:30]book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to

[31:34]Steve and Ryan at texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to

[31:37]morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and