Rio Cortez, THE ABCS OF BLACK HISTORY
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[3:56]Ria Cortes is a writer and push cart prize nominated poet who has received fellowships from
[4:01]Poets House, Cave Canum, and Cardo Mundo Foundation. Her work has appeared in the Los Angeles
[4:05]Review of Books, the Miami Rail, and Mother Magazine, among others. Ria is the author of,
[4:10]I have learned to define a field as a space between mountains and the ABCs of Black History,
[4:15]born and raised in Salt Lake City, Utah, Ria writes and lives in Harlem, New York.
[4:18]Her daughter was the inspiration for this book. Welcome, Ria. Thank you so much for coming on
[4:23]mom's. Don't have time to read books. Hi, thanks so much for having me. It's my pleasure.
[4:28]I loved this children's book, the ABCs of Black History, not that it's even just for children.
[4:33]It's just really an awesome book, but I should call it this illustrated work picture book.
[4:38]How about that illustrated picture book? It's very generous of you. So tell me a little bit about,
[4:45]I know you're this push cart nominee poet and now you've written this book. And by the way,
[4:49]we have to talk about your essay about your pregnancy. So just put that in the back burner because
[4:55]was obsessed with that essay. But tell me first about this book and how it came to be the ABCs
[5:00]of Black History. Yeah. Well, like you mentioned, I mostly write poetry and for adults and this book is
[5:06]also a poem. It's a long poem. It's told in rhyming verse and it came to be through a conversation
[5:12]with my editor, Tracy Todd, who's at workman about what's missing in the children's book world.
[5:18]And so I started writing this when I was pregnant with my daughter who's now two years old.
[5:23]and we kind of worked on it collaboratively and now it's in the world. But I think it was mostly
[5:29]because I was interested in presenting more lesser known figures in Black History to younger
[5:36]children because I feel like that's something. I feel like when I encountered Black History as a
[5:41]kid or an elementary school, I clung to every little crumb and I grew up in Utah and so I feel like
[5:48]perhaps those crumbs were even fewer or smaller. And so I just sort of wanted to provide
[5:54]better morsels, I think, for young readers. And so that's kind of what this book is.
[5:59]Tell me about growing up in Utah where what part of Utah and what was what was the Black community
[6:03]like there? Tell me about that. Yeah, I mean small was the Black News small. I think it always has been.
[6:10]But growing up in Utah was great in some ways. It's a beautiful place. I grew up in Salt Lake City.
[6:16]My family is all still in Salt Lake City. And they've been there for a really, well my mom's side,
[6:22]my mom is Black American, my father's Puerto Rican from New York City. But my mother's side's been in
[6:27]Salt Lake since reconstruction. So they went after the abolition of slavery, they were enslaved in
[6:34]Louisiana. They traveled west by a coach and train and they are part of the first Black settlers
[6:40]in the state of Utah. And so they've been there for a really long time. But it didn't make growing
[6:46]up there Black any easier for me unfortunately. I think I feel like there's just generations of
[6:51]my family who've been like really some of the only Black students in schools there and in their
[6:58]communities and neighborhoods. So it's an interesting place to grow up. It's informed a lot of my
[7:02]poetry. But I think probably some early interest in Black history trying to figure out why we were
[7:10]I think we're some of my earliest questions. That's amazing that your family knows that you have
[7:14]all the details of that piece of history and that you've retained that over all the generations.
[7:20]Do you have artifacts or anything else from that time? Yeah a little. So my family isn't of the
[7:25]Mormon faith but you might know that the Mormon church is really good at genealogy. And so I
[7:32]think to our benefit there's just a lot of record keeping in the state of Utah and really good
[7:37]historical record. So yes, one relative of mine who was my great grandfather was a famous Black
[7:45]Mormon sort of a singular conversion in our family and it his story through the church and their
[7:51]bookkeeping has really made it easy for us to kind of know a lot more about our family. So he
[7:56]testified to the Mormon faith and he traveled on behalf of the church and he wrote a book
[8:02]like a pamphlet called the Negro Pioneer in which he even names the family that owned our family
[8:08]in Louisiana. And so I feel really lucky in a way to have so much access to our family's history and
[8:15]I think a lot of Black Americans aren't able to access that. So wow, but yeah. I mean that feels like
[8:20]it feels like another book to me in there just like you need to you need to maybe find those
[8:26]archives a little for some more stories. That's that's really powerful. You don't often hear about that
[8:31]in anybody's family frankly, but just how people got there. I'm always so interested like how did
[8:36]you end up in Salt Lake City? So how did your New York Puerto Rican father fall into this family? How did
[8:43]they meet? It's a really that's a that's a longer story, but my dad grew up in the Lower East side
[8:49]and he was in the Lower East side and got in with a little bit of trouble and ended up going west
[8:53]and so he stayed. He ended up in Utah and met my mother and they've been together for 30 years. So
[9:01]Wow. Lovely. Yeah, but but yeah his family is a little bit more it's very different, but he's
[9:08]Afro Puerto Rican and I have still a lot of relatives in New York City and so that's made it it's
[9:13]made it a little nicer living here for so long. I'm in New York City too. So one of these days we can
[9:18]meet up. Sorry. I don't I didn't intend to like delve into your family business, but I'm so
[9:24]interested in hearing all of that and how everybody came to be. Well, thank you for all that.
[9:29]You know, in this book I actually my favorite page was the diaspora page. I don't know why,
[9:34]but I love how I'm showing this for people listening. You can watch on YouTube or whatever, but
[9:38]just how far everybody traveled and all the bigger spots for the community in the United States
[9:45]even, but PS there is no Utah on this map. I don't know. I think you need to go back. So even just
[9:50]seeing like how far everybody traveled and you know just all the amazing accomplishments like
[9:56]all the sports rock stars and the music.
[10:00]musicians and just from Jesse Owens, Gabby Douglas,
[10:04]and the Queens, and I love that you included Michelle Obama
[10:06]in there, that was a nice touch.
[10:08]The organizers, newspapers, holidays, really awesome.
[10:12]How did you end up collaborating
[10:15]with Lauren's summer, your illustrator?
[10:17]Through email back and forth.
[10:19]So we actually have never met in person,
[10:21]which is, I think probably the story
[10:23]of a lot of author illustrators, but I don't know.
[10:25]So I wrote the manuscript,
[10:28]and then she would do a draft of illustrations.
[10:31]And then between our mutual editor,
[10:33]we would make changes through text and image.
[10:36]And we might say, like, actually,
[10:37]I don't think you need to say this.
[10:38]It can be shown.
[10:40]And so it was all through email,
[10:42]but she's really wonderful and talented.
[10:44]And if this is her debut also,
[10:46]it's all the same thing.
[10:48]And yeah, tell me about your book of poetry,
[10:51]which now I have to go back and read.
[10:53]I'm sorry that I haven't.
[10:54]It's actually a very limited press edition
[10:57]from High Live Books out of Miami.
[10:59]So it's not like easy to grab at your local bookstore,
[11:03]but it is, it's a lot of poetry about Utah
[11:05]to put it quite simply.
[11:07]I was not just about Utah.
[11:08]It's also about belonging and racial identity
[11:12]and finding yourself in places in worlds
[11:15]that aren't meant for you.
[11:16]But that's a little bit about my adult poetry.
[11:18]And how did you become a writer to begin with?
[11:20]When did you start writing poetry and books?
[11:22]And did you know that was your calling?
[11:25]Well, I wrote when I was really young.
[11:27]I feel lucky that way too.
[11:28]I think poetry really found me when I was in the third grade.
[11:32]And it kind of saved my life.
[11:34]I think poetry has been there through every up and down
[11:37]in my life.
[11:38]And it's actually how I met my partner.
[11:41]We're both part of a Black poetry fellowship
[11:43]called Copicana when we met there.
[11:45]And so I think to be honest with you in the third grade,
[11:49]that John Singleton movie poetic justice came out.
[11:52]And it just spoke to my little broody heart.
[11:56]And I was like, the first time I encountered poetry,
[11:59]I didn't grow up in a household with people who read poetry.
[12:03]I don't think a lot of people do,
[12:04]but some lucky ones.
[12:06]And so that's how poetry found me through film,
[12:09]which is kind of funny.
[12:11]But it just stayed with me my whole life.
[12:13]And I ended up studying poetry at Sarah Lawrence
[12:15]and at NYU, so I was lucky enough to do that too.
[12:18]But yeah, never left after John Singleton movie.
[12:23]You should do like a party where you screen the movie
[12:27]for like to debut your book or something.
[12:30]You should do like a Facebook watch party of the movie.
[12:34]And like, that's brilliant.
[12:37]There are some scenes I feel like
[12:38]that we could definitely watch together.
[12:40]All right, well send me the invite
[12:41]because I haven't seen that movie.
[12:42]And if I would love to.
[12:44]So that would be a really cool way to promote a book.
[12:47]I also want to talk about your essay,
[12:50]which was so beautiful in Mother Magazine
[12:53]about being a black mother,
[12:55]but it could have been any kind of mother.
[12:57]I mean, it was about how when as soon as you become pregnant,
[13:00]you basically become a receptacle for everybody's story.
[13:03]And you're not necessarily prepared for that.
[13:05]And then you become sort of the story keeper.
[13:08]You've been referenced here.
[13:10]Like the security guard in your building
[13:11]and her ephesiotomy and just how much detail people
[13:15]would share with you as soon as they saw your belly.
[13:17]So tell me a little bit about that.
[13:19]Yeah.
[13:20]I mean, I think I,
[13:21]and when I was pregnant,
[13:22]I was going through,
[13:23]it was such a new experience to me
[13:25]and that was really fascinating also
[13:28]because I've had a woman's body my whole life.
[13:31]And everybody goes through the experience of being born,
[13:34]but it felt like I had no information whatsoever
[13:37]about being pregnant.
[13:39]It felt like I was cramming for an exam.
[13:42]That wasn't like imminent.
[13:43]You know, and it felt like over my life,
[13:45]I should have known more about the,
[13:48]about the birth experience.
[13:50]And so for me, that said that it was like,
[13:53]it felt illicit and like really quiet.
[13:56]Like sort of the actual,
[13:58]you know, you see a woman and I think I talk about this,
[14:00]like on Instagram or something.
[14:03]And it's she's pregnant and then like seven days later.
[14:06]She's like holding a baby in a hospital bed
[14:07]and it all seems just so perfect.
[14:09]And I think that's part of what I was experiencing
[14:12]as a pregnant woman is that women want to tell these stories.
[14:16]And it doesn't feel like there's a really welcome place
[14:20]for them in the world to talk about the details
[14:22]of their birth and labors.
[14:24]And it's monumental and life changing
[14:28]and to not really have an outlet for those conversations
[14:31]is like, it's just suffocating.
[14:33]And so when I was pregnant, it felt like an invitation
[14:36]to women to say to me like, oh my God,
[14:39]like I went through this and this and this
[14:41]and so many intimate details of women
[14:43]I had worked with or seen every single day
[14:46]and now new part of their medical history,
[14:49]which was so interesting.
[14:50]And I think part of that gives you a little anxiety
[14:53]as a pregnant woman also because,
[14:56]especially for a first time mother, like I was not knowing
[14:59]and not ever being able to know what your birth story
[15:02]will look like or your labor story will look like.
[15:04]So you're ingesting all of these other people's stories
[15:08]and applying them to yourself and seeing yourself
[15:12]in those situations and wondering how you would cope.
[15:15]And so there's a little bit of that,
[15:17]but it's also gratitude that I felt
[15:19]because I felt like I was getting closer
[15:22]to all these women around me
[15:24]and that we had this thread between us that connected us.
[15:27]But again, on the other hand, it made me feel like
[15:30]they shouldn't be so silenced
[15:32]and it shouldn't be so much silence
[15:34]around the process of labor and delivery
[15:36]and childbirth and fertility and all of these issues.
[15:39]And I think those stories are coming more and more,
[15:41]but still between women,
[15:42]but they should really be between everybody.
[15:45]So that's sort of what I was thinking about
[15:47]when I wrote that essay.
[15:48]It started because I went to like a fundraising gala
[15:53]and I was found myself like six months postpartum
[15:56]sitting next to a pregnant woman
[15:58]and I was like doing the exact,
[15:59]like I couldn't stop myself from just like addressing
[16:03]her pregnancy and my experience.
[16:05]And I was like, wow, it really is.
[16:06]It's just like a thing.
[16:08]So I was asking her all these questions
[16:10]and I was like telling her about my C section.
[16:11]I'm like, this woman doesn't need to know
[16:14]all of this about me,
[16:15]but here I am like, never out of the house
[16:18]and had like a newborn and I just was like unloading on her
[16:21]and thinking about what drives that impulse, I think.
[16:25]Was the gala for the Schomburg Center?
[16:27]It was for, it's called the Black Girl Magic gala.
[16:30]It was organized by Mahogany Brown
[16:33]and they do really great work
[16:34]and like the urban word community
[16:37]and young poets and stuff like that.
[16:39]So that's what it was for.
[16:40]So it's really lovely experience.
[16:43]It was like my first time out of the house
[16:44]and she had no idea.
[16:46]I mean, I had no idea really what it was gonna be like
[16:48]and I was like without my child
[16:50]and I was just bothering stranger.
[16:53]Not bothering, I'm sure.
[16:54]I was super helpful to her.
[16:56]I think that happens to everybody.
[16:57]I think that's, it was such a relatable story
[16:59]because all of a sudden you're like, wait,
[17:01]what, this all happens to every woman who has a baby?
[17:04]Are you kidding me?
[17:06]There's so many.
[17:06]I mean, everybody has their own particular journey,
[17:08]but yeah, the medical stuff alone.
[17:10]I have four kids and I won't even get into all that,
[17:15]but I can share a lot of stories with you too.
[17:17]I remember being pregnant with my twins
[17:19]and we had, you know, they said you had to like
[17:22]have like some sort of course on,
[17:24]I don't know, childbirth, which is so ridiculous.
[17:25]But anyway, I couldn't leave the house.
[17:27]I was on bed rest.
[17:28]So someone like came over.
[17:29]I was like telling me about all the options
[17:31]for childbirth and I was like, where is option C?
[17:34]I don't like options A or B.
[17:36]No, no, no, no, thanks.
[17:38]And then I'm like, but I can't turn this clock around.
[17:41]I can't turn this around.
[17:42]Like they've got to come out somehow.
[17:43]Anyway, and it's like a nightmare.
[17:45]But yes, I, this will, and this is like a calm,
[17:47]people say this all the time, but another mother said this
[17:50]to me and she was like, the only way out is through.
[17:53]And I thought that the entire way through my pregnancy
[17:56]and it said a lot, but I never resonated with me more
[17:59]because if you're in the position,
[18:01]it's just like things are gonna,
[18:02]things are gonna be inevitable one way or the other.
[18:05]And so I would just think to that, that to myself.
[18:07]That is another, if it's not already taken,
[18:09]that's another great book title, by the way.
[18:11]The only way out is through.
[18:12]I feel like that could also refer to this year, right?
[18:15]It's like, just have to keep going.
[18:18]It's like, how does the pandemic have been for you,
[18:22]real?
[18:23]Uh, lovely time inside.
[18:26]But what has this year done to you and your writing
[18:29]and your life and your baby and all the rest?
[18:32]Yeah, she's active.
[18:33]We, it's just been odd.
[18:36]You know, we spent five months in Utah,
[18:37]which I never thought I'd be able to do really.
[18:40]And so that in a way was kind of a beautiful thing
[18:43]that came from it.
[18:44]I feel really far away from our family,
[18:46]but at the same time, it's felt necessary for us
[18:49]to live in New York for career stuff
[18:52]and my husband's career and also for my sanity in some ways.
[18:56]And so it gave us this opportunity to be in Utah
[19:00]and not have those feelings of like missing out,
[19:03]like the photo that I would sometimes feel.
[19:05]And so we got to be there in a really quite way
[19:08]and be around my family,
[19:09]but it's also been really hard.
[19:10]Now we're back in New York, we're in Harlem
[19:13]and we are both working from home
[19:15]and we have a two-year-old who I feel like
[19:18]we're just sitting in front of screens all day long,
[19:20]which is not what I would like to be doing.
[19:23]But we're just sort of, it feels like we're really surviving,
[19:26]like, you know, just getting through the day,
[19:28]like trying to do the things that we need to do.
[19:30]And then with this book coming out,
[19:31]it's been one of those, I keep calling it,
[19:34]it's like the year of horrors and delights.
[19:36]Like some things have been just truly horrible
[19:39]and then other things have been truly delightful.
[19:42]And so this book being published in the midst of 2020
[19:45]is one of those delightful things.
[19:47]But yeah, we're just getting back.
[19:49]I don't know what it's been like for you, but yeah.
[19:51]I feel the same way.
[19:52]I think I just posted or put in my newsletter
[19:54]something about like this year is all about joys and sorrows,
[19:57]highs and lows.
[19:58]It's just so, it feels so exciting.
[20:00]streamed to me, the depths that, you know, if it's like a sine curve, you know, like instead
[20:04]of just going along, it's like suddenly huge, up huge downs and I'm just sort of eager for
[20:10]to be closer to that middle line, you know, that I like I have like whiplash from this
[20:16]roller coaster ride of this year. I'm just like getting a little, getting a little seasick,
[20:21]if you will, a little motion sickness from the whole thing. So I'm ready for normal life
[20:26]in so many ways to come back. But, you know, I recently read this article in the New York Times
[20:31]about toddlers and the pandemic. My kids are older. I have now ages six through 13, but how so many
[20:37]toddlers and infants are getting that socialization that they would have otherwise and how there
[20:42]was some toddler in the article who saw a person on the street and they're like, uh oh, people
[20:46]and they ran away because, and how parents are now so worried about the long-term damage.
[20:52]But the good news from that article at least, and I should reference the author,
[20:55]but I can't remember who it was, was that that actually makes kids more resilient to have gone
[21:00]through a period of time like this, similar to kids in the depression and other periods of time
[21:05]where there's immense disruption and everything. So, so the good news is there won't be long-term
[21:10]damage or at least that's what they want us to believe.
[21:15]Right. And I would not know other children. I'm going to have a lot of people in our community with
[21:20]children that that are our daughters age and so. And they're like kids on the street when we're
[21:27]like walking to the car and she'll try to like talk with them. It's just it's really heartbreaking.
[21:31]It's hard to watch. I'm like, I know that you want to, you'd be such a good friend at this age, you know?
[21:36]She's so channy and curious and she just spends all her time with the two of us.
[21:41]Oh, I should say we caveat to this to my summary of the article. It also said if you
[21:47]you have to be part of a loving family. So the strength of the bonds of the family that's,
[21:53]you know, sort of isolated together is the protective factor of for the kids. So it's not just
[21:59]it. They'll be fine. It's that as long as they're with loving parents because of that age, the
[22:03]relationship with the parents is most important. So as long as you're loving and all that stuff,
[22:08]which I can already tell that you are, you're gonna be fine. So yeah. So are you working on anything
[22:16]now? Tell me about your work now? Yeah. I'm finishing a collection of poetry that has been like
[22:21]long on the back burner, which I'm about done with. And then I have one picture book manuscript that
[22:26]I'm shipping away at, but it's very near first draft. So those are what I'm working on. But hopefully
[22:32]I'll be able to finish the adult poetry first and kind of get that into the world and then
[22:37]and then see where the second picture book manuscript goes. But I think a lot about writing a little
[22:42]bit about my family also, like you're saying. So that's just longer term things. It's hard to be
[22:48]focused and creative when you're working full time. And obviously when you are a parent and
[22:54]and Brown and Sally's hats. And I know that there's some really great examples of writers and
[22:58]mothers who have done it before me. So I look to them all the time. But those are things that
[23:02]I'm interested in finishing up some projects that I'm working on. Well, if you have any interest in
[23:06]adding more to your plate, I'm doing these anthologies. I have one coming in February and one coming
[23:11]out in November. If you have any interest in contributing a poem to the anthology about
[23:15]you know, they're different themes. I could talk to you about it after, but it'd be really
[23:18]neat. I don't have any poems yet for the second collection. So let me know. Cool. Yeah.
[23:22]They're awesome. Okay. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[23:25]Oh, I suspected you were going to ask that because I've listened to your podcast.
[23:29]Oh, thank you. And that means you've listened to the end of a podcast. That's even better. Thank you.
[23:34]I do. I mean, everybody's always saying you true to yourself. And I think that's because that's
[23:41]really good advice. And I've heard, I think I heard Morgan Jerk and recommend writing what you're
[23:46]afraid of. I think that's pretty good advice too. But I also think be patient with yourself.
[23:53]I would suggest to as a writer, don't put pressure on yourself,
[23:57]try not to compare yourself to other people and find joy in your writing where you can.
[24:03]I would say that. Love it. That's not super practical advice. So I think it's really good for
[24:08]yourself care. Great life advice too. Which is great. Everybody can use some life advice.
[24:15]Well, Rio, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on mom's time to read books and talking about
[24:20]your experience. And now I really want to read the book you're going to write about growing up in
[24:23]Utah. And your family's history. And I can totally see that whole thing is a picture of a
[24:27]Pia. So get to work on that and I'll follow up about the poem. And have a great day. Thanks so much.
[24:32]Me too. Thanks so much for having me to be lovely. Hi, pleasure. Okay. Take care. Bye bye.
[24:39]Thanks to page and pairing dot com for sponsoring today's episode. Go check them out page and
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[24:49]And just a reminder again, please pre-order a copy of my book, Mom's Don't Have Time to
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[25:27]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at the Texture Sound for the Sound Editing. And thank you to
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