Adam Grant, THINK AGAIN

2021-02-02 · 31:04 · Adam Grant · Podcast Audio

[0:08]Hi, I'm Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

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[0:53]Hi, I don't know if you guys know this or not, but I have an anthology coming out called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology.

[1:01]And it comes out on February 16th and has essays by 60 plus of the authors who have been on this podcast.

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[3:24]hosted by Hollywood mom, celebrity stylist, influencer, and Bravo Reality Star, Ali Levine. On

[3:31]her podcast, you'll get a mix of, well, everything from motherhood, to fashion, lifestyle,

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[3:47]and truly entertained. Hey everybody, yesterday started our February book blast. Sometimes,

[3:53]I end up with just so many amazing episodes that I have to release a whole bunch at once.

[3:57]So, today is day two of the February book blast. And today is nonfiction Tuesday. If you missed

[4:03]it yesterday was memoir Monday. And then we have literary fiction coming on Wednesday, new novels,

[4:08]Thursday, and family theme memoirs on Friday. So, stick with us for the whole week. Adam Grant is

[4:15]the author of Think Again, The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know. He is an organizational psychologist

[4:20]at the Wharton School, where he has been the top-rated professor for seven straight years.

[4:24]His books have sold millions of copies. His TED talks have been viewed over 25 million times.

[4:29]And his podcast Work Life with Adam Grant has topped the charts. His pioneering research has

[4:34]inspired people to rethink fundamental assumptions about motivation, generosity, and creativity.

[4:39]He has been recognized as one of the world's 10 most influential management thinkers,

[4:44]and fortunes 40 under 40, and has received Distinguished Scientific Achievement Awards from the

[4:48]American Psychological Association, and the National Science Foundation. Grant received his

[4:53]BA from Harvard University and his PhD from the University of Michigan, and he is a former

[4:57]junior Olympic springboard diver. He lives in Philadelphia with his wife and their three children.

[5:03]Welcome, Adam. Thank you so much for coming on mom's. Don't have time to read books to discuss

[5:08]Think Again. Well, thank you, Debbie. I am thrilled to be here, but you should really

[5:12]reserve your enthusiasm for the end, because we don't know how this is going to go. You're right.

[5:15]And I might change my mind a hundred times. I'm going to rethink the whole thing.

[5:18]Maybe you should. In fact, maybe you shouldn't have invited me at all.

[5:21]I have been debating that. Maybe there are some things you shouldn't rethink.

[5:25]We, in case anyone is confused, we are joking like this, because that is the topic of Adam's

[5:31]book, the power of knowing what you don't know. And I personally have found immense validation

[5:37]at the whole premise of this book being that it's okay to rethink, because I literally rethink

[5:42]every decision I ever make to the distress of everyone around me, because I am constantly

[5:47]changing plans. And everybody has sort of viewed this as a weakness. And now I'm going to,

[5:52]I'm going to view it as a strength. I'm not sure I really meant to come and just validate all

[5:56]of your analysis paralysis. And all the ways that you might drive yourself and other people crazy,

[6:02]if you rethink everything. But I do worry is to be that we live in a world where people are

[6:08]expected to stick to their convictions. And we think that consistency is a sign of strength.

[6:12]And every time I hear people say that I think, well, if you never change your mind,

[6:16]how are you ever learning or growth? It's so true. I was actually talking about the topic of your

[6:21]a friend of mine and what it was about. And she was like, well, I'm so glad someone said that.

[6:25]She's like, because I always feel bad for politicians when they have a different belief about a

[6:30]certain topic, like 10 years later, why are they not allowed to change their mind? I changed my mind

[6:35]on lots of things she said. So yeah, I've been thinking a lot about that lately, because we see so

[6:40]many headlines about flip flopping. And I do think there are times when we should be critical of that,

[6:45]if you're changing your mind just to please your tribe, or if you haven't actually changed your

[6:51]mind, but you're towing a party line, then we probably shouldn't give people credit for evolving.

[6:57]But if people have reflected deeply on an issue, if they've looked at the evidence,

[7:01]if they've had conversations that led them to question some of their convictions,

[7:05]I think that's a sign of progress in many cases. Yes, I didn't mean to suggest flip flopping

[7:10]to cater to the whims of the popular vote would be a positive, but just that people are allowed

[7:16]to change their minds as we do about lots of things in the course of daily life. Bring it on.

[7:21]Yeah. Your book talked about so many different amazing things, but one thing that I loved

[7:28]was when you talk about kids and when people ask them what they want to be when they grow up,

[7:33]because I have been taking issue with this question a lot lately when people ask my kids,

[7:37]because I'm thinking, I don't know, I didn't not only did I not know for sure, although I

[7:40]wanted to be a writer, I've changed my career and my job a hundred times, not a hundred a lot.

[7:45]And I don't think it's even a fair question anymore. People don't know necessarily even when

[7:50]they're our age, what they want to be. Things are constantly evolving. So tell me about that

[7:53]in your whole discussion of it in the book. Yeah, it's I think it's a great way to get kids trapped

[7:59]in plans that don't actually make any sense for them. Right. So I remember as a kid being asked,

[8:03]what do you want to be when you grow up? And the only acceptable answer was something heroic.

[8:08]Right. I had to say an astronaut or a filmmaker. I had no idea what I wanted to be. And I also

[8:15]never occurred to me until much later that I didn't have to define myself solely in terms of work.

[8:19]Right. It's not an acceptable answer to say I want to be a good dad or for you to say I want

[8:23]to be a good mom. It's also not acceptable to say I want to be a person of integrity or generosity.

[8:29]And this is such a peculiar American thing. Right. If you go to Europe, people don't ask what

[8:35]do you want to be? They don't even ask you what do you do when they meet you because it's considered

[8:40]rude. And they'd rather talk about what you love to do. And so I don't know. At some levels,

[8:45]I think it would be a lot kinder to kids. If instead of saying what do you want to be when you

[8:52]grow up, we ask them what are all the different things you want to do and allow them to recognize

[8:56]that they can have many careers and many identities. And what they think is exciting to them

[9:01]might change over time or maybe even the job that they want doesn't exist yet. Totally.

[9:06]I mean, podcasting. What is that? Right. What are we even doing right now? Zoom podcasting? This

[9:12]I mean, no. This was not a job when we were kids. No. What have saved me a lot of rethinking

[9:17]of what I wanted to do. How do I know? You can talk to people and that's work. Really?

[9:21]Hi. It's amazing. It's like a total joke. And speaking of kids, by the way,

[9:26]so how great that I think it was your daughter who came up with the cover idea with the match

[9:30]and the water. Yeah, Joanna's 12. It was such an exciting moment for me because I knew we needed

[9:37]to cover that would get people to think again. But nothing we tried was working. And I just

[9:41]happened to mention offhand one day that we were looking for a cover idea. And Joanna says, well,

[9:46]what if you had a match with with water instead of fire? And it just clicked instantly. And it

[9:52]really made me rethink where I get my ideas. My process is way too linear. Well, we need an optical

[9:58]illusion. But.

[10:00]A lot of them have been done before and they're cliched and then the new ones we tried just didn't work. They were too confusing.

[10:05]And Joanna said, well, rethinking is about doing the opposite many times. And so let me think about opposites. And she said, well, water and fire.

[10:13]And she didn't even know that the opening story was about firefighters.

[10:16]I was going to ask if it was based on that and how perceptive she was that was amazing.

[10:21]Complete coincidence.

[10:22]Wow. All right. Well, I've gotten my kids involved in my anthology book covers by having them just pose.

[10:29]But yours are now like the idea generators. So I don't know. That's the next step for your kids. This is the next step. Yes, 100%.

[10:37]Tell me a little bit about in your TED Talk you talked about how you're a pre-crustinator, which I loved. Tell me a little more about that.

[10:44]Are you one too? I am one too. Yes.

[10:47]All right. I had a hunch. So I've always taken joy and pride in getting things done early.

[10:54]So I was the kid in college who annoyed all my friends because I finished a draft of my thesis a few months in advance.

[11:00]And I just, when I have a deadline, I want to not only, I guess, let me say this a little differently, when I'm excited about a project,

[11:09]I want to finish it as soon as possible because I have this image of how great it could be. And every minute I'm not working on it is a source of anxiety.

[11:17]It might not get done or it might be terrible. And I know a lot of procrastinators who feel that anxiety at the last minute.

[11:24]And I just feel it a few weeks or a few months ahead of schedule. So procrastinating is essentially

[11:30]feeling that urge to finish way ahead of schedule. Yes. Tell me about your procrastination.

[11:36]I make false deadlines to avoid the anxiety of running up against a deadline. But then, as you said,

[11:42]like all main anxiety spikes around my false deadline. It like makes no sense. I don't think I'm

[11:48]actually doing any good. So I felt relieved that there was now a term to describe this thing.

[11:53]Yeah, I keep meeting people who say, look, I understand that it's probably worse to be an extreme

[11:59]procrastinator than it is to be a procrastinator. But this isn't fun either because I'm always

[12:04]tricky myself into thinking that I have all this pressure on me to do something. And it's actually

[12:09]taking some of the joy out of my work. Totally. Okay. So let's talk a little more about

[12:14]rethinking in general and why you wanted to write a whole book about it. Why is it so important

[12:18]that people know that it's not only okay, but actually beneficial to rethink and dig deep

[12:24]and poke holes in our own beliefs and come up with new theories? Why is this important?

[12:30]There's so many reasons. I think the place I would start is to say that our first thoughts, our

[12:34]intuitions are often not our best thoughts. So you know, there's some research on students taking

[12:40]tests, showing that if they, if they have a first instinct and then they change their answer,

[12:46]on average, they actually improve their scores. And yet when you tell students that,

[12:50]they still hesitate to rethink their answers. Because I think in part, there's this regret

[12:55]that comes from saying, well, I had the right answer. And then I undid it. And I made a big mistake.

[13:00]Whereas if you stuck to your first answer and you didn't rethink it, there's really nothing to

[13:05]second guess. And I think for so many of us, it's just, it's easy to prefer the comfort of

[13:10]conviction over the discomfort of doubt. And every time you question your own opinions or your own

[13:15]knowledge, you're saying, you know what? I might be living in an unpredictable world. I might

[13:21]lack some control over my life. I might be excluded from the tribe of people who sees the world

[13:26]certain way. And yet we live in a rapidly changing world. And as knowledge evolves, as facts change,

[13:33]if we don't update our thinking, it's pretty easy to get stuck in the past. And I think we

[13:38]probably should put an expiration date on a lot of the beliefs that we form. Is there a belief you

[13:42]have that you've changed lately? Oh, I have so many. Where do you want to start? I don't know.

[13:46]Something about parenting. Oh, yeah. I've, I've rethought almost everything I used to believe

[13:51]about parenting. So I think the one of the big ones for me actually is a little bit of a twist on

[13:57]growth mindset. So I was really heavily influenced as I'm sure you and many others were too

[14:03]by Carol Dweck's work and said, okay, we should really be careful to praise, you know, to

[14:08]praise effort, not, not character. We should praise, sorry, we should praise effort, not ability.

[14:14]Was, was the big thing that stuck with me in the past hour of yet, right? Yeah, exactly. Not

[14:20]Yeah, I haven't figured this out yet, such a, such a key phrase. And yet, I read some research

[14:25]showing that in the realm of generosity, if you want to raise kids to be giving and caring,

[14:30]it's actually more effective to say you are a helper or you are a giver than to praise them for

[14:37]helping or giving. Hmm. And I've started to wonder if there's something about character that's

[14:43]different from achievement where when you say, Hey, you know what, you are, you are a kind person,

[14:50]it actually starts to internalize it as part of their identity. And then the next time they have

[14:54]a chance to do something that shows compassion for someone else, they think, well, that's who I am.

[14:59]And so my wife, Alison, rolls her eyes at me every once in a while when she catches me saying,

[15:04]you're a giver, which just sounds really cheesy. But I think the data are really interesting,

[15:09]even as young as three, if you invite kids to be helpers instead of just to help,

[15:14]they're about 25 to 30% more likely to show up and help. So even that young, they want to earn the

[15:19]identity. And that's something I've started to think differently about. What do you make of that?

[15:24]I love that. And I think I'm going to use that to coerce them to do more chores. I say, like,

[15:31]you know, you are the dishes helper tonight versus do the dishes.

[15:36]I think there's potential there. I, yeah, I think there's a lot of room for growth.

[15:41]I should say caveat. Carol has some work showing that you still have to express disappointment

[15:46]when they don't earn that identity, though. And that when parents show disappointment and say,

[15:50]hey, you know what, I know you're a helper, but you weren't helpful today. That cultivates guilt.

[15:55]And as Irma bum back, I think put it best, guilt is the gift that keeps on giving.

[15:58]I love Irma bum back. I'm so glad I wish I could interview her. I should actually,

[16:03]if anyone ever asked me that question, which no one has. For the fictitious interviewer who wants

[16:08]to know who I would like to have dinner with who's not alive anymore, I would figure that is such a

[16:13]great answer. Yes, to a non-existent question. Thank you. But I, I'm glad I lied. No, but people ask

[16:18]it all the time, right? So in theory, you should always have an answer to that.

[16:22]Right. It's at the ready. Tell me a little bit about the power of listening because you

[16:26]write a lot about that in the book. And I particularly love this illustration.

[16:30]You have roses. Let me interrupt your expertise with my confidence, which is not only about

[16:35]listening, but also about the unbridled confidence. Sorry. What were you saying?

[16:40]I couldn't resist. I almost, let's go. Glad I had coffee. I'm with it. I got it. Okay. Yes.

[16:48]Listening. The power of listening, I was really profoundly affected by this work in

[16:55]counseling psychology on what's called motivational interviewing. And it grew out of

[16:59]counselors who were doing work with people who were trying to overcome addictions. And they found

[17:04]that preaching at people and prosecuting them for doing the wrong thing just didn't tend to work.

[17:09]It made people defensive. And suddenly they realize, you know, you often are in a position where

[17:16]you can't motivate someone else to change. What you could do though is help them find their own

[17:21]motivation to change. And one of the best ways to do that is to do what we're doing right now,

[17:25]which is actually to interview them, right? To ask them questions about what changes they've considered

[17:30]and how they went so far and then reflect back to them, hold up a mirror and help them see,

[17:35]you know what? I have some reasons to stay the course, but I also have some reasons to consider

[17:41]changing my beliefs or my behaviors. And then if they express an interest in changing,

[17:45]you help them think through what their plan might be. And this is really changed the way I have

[17:49]conversations with a lot of people, whether it's friends who are concerned about vaccines or it's

[17:55]students that I give advice to in office hours for so much of my life. I've felt like my job is

[18:02]to try to help people get closer to the truth. And when I think I've already found the truth,

[18:07]I, okay, I need to enlighten you. And it does such a disservice to their own freedom of choice and

[18:13]also their own expertise and experience. And so what I've tried to do now when a student comes into

[18:18]office hours, for example, and they asked me for advice on a tough career decision, I'll start

[18:22]by saying, well, tell me why you're here. Are you here because you just want validation for a decision

[18:27]that you've already made? Or are you looking for someone to help you think through what the thought

[18:32]process should be? Or do you want me to challenge some of your assumptions and help you rethink what

[18:38]might be a premature conviction? And once I understand that, I can just ask them a bunch of questions

[18:44]to say, okay, what are your values? What are you trying to achieve in this career decision?

[18:49]And then once I understand that, look, it's your choice. But here's how I might think through

[18:54]the decision if I were you. And based on what I've heard here, the criteria that seem to matter

[18:58]to you. And I end up being much more helpful in those situations. I also learned a lot more because

[19:04]I find out that the reasons I had for preferring a different path are not necessarily their reasons.

[19:10]So interesting. I feel like you can apply that to couples counseling and other areas of

[19:16]times when people end up not listening to each other, especially perhaps if everybody's been

[19:20]home from this year because of a worldwide pandemic and are having trouble getting along with

[19:25]people they live with. Not that this is happening to me, but I'm just saying.

[19:28]Hypothetically, you know, it is interesting. Motivational interviewing has been applied in some of those

[19:33]areas. There's work on divorcing parents, for example, trying to reach a settlement about

[19:38]about who takes the kids and what the schedule looks like. And when the mediator uses this

[19:45]approach and says, you know what, I want to interview each of you about what your goals and your

[19:49]values and your intentions are, they're significantly more likely to actually reach an agreement.

[19:54]And I wonder, I mean, this is the work on listening to me is so interesting.

[20:00]but just sitting down with someone

[20:02]that you sometimes don't get along with

[20:03]and saying, hey, you know what,

[20:05]I realize I haven't always done a good job hearing you.

[20:08]And I'd love to ask you some questions

[20:10]to better understand your viewpoint.

[20:12]And I'm just gonna listen for three,

[20:14]for maybe five minutes.

[20:15]That is enough to create significant understanding

[20:18]between both people.

[20:20]So interesting.

[20:21]I've thought a lot about listening

[20:22]because I do this all day.

[20:24]I mean, I know I talk a lot too,

[20:25]but I really am listening.

[20:28]I listen to people, I hear them.

[20:30]I think about it all the time.

[20:32]And what it does just to have someone know

[20:36]that someone's listening.

[20:37]Like that alone, no matter what you say after.

[20:40]Like, wow, somebody cares about what I have to say

[20:42]for a half an hour.

[20:43]And I really do care.

[20:44]So it's like, I feel like it makes people so grateful.

[20:48]That simple act of just not being distracted and listening.

[20:54]It's such a rare commodity, isn't it?

[20:56]I know, and it's so simple.

[20:58]It is, I mean, it's the most basic skill

[21:00]that we're supposed to have.

[21:01]And yeah, you're a professional listener.

[21:04]And it's surprising how rare it is for us

[21:07]to sit down with someone else

[21:08]and have a conversation where they're not just waiting

[21:11]for their turn to talk.

[21:12]But they're genuinely curious about who we are

[21:15]and how we got there.

[21:17]I'm reminded of some work I did studying astronauts.

[21:21]And their big challenge was to build trust,

[21:24]especially this is going to sound like a bad joke.

[21:26]It's not, there was an American and Italian and a Russian

[21:29]that we're supposed to go to the International Space Station

[21:31]together.

[21:32]And they didn't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things.

[21:34]And there were some gender biases and some culture clashes.

[21:38]And one of the things they did around a campfire

[21:40]during their training was they told their origin stories.

[21:44]And they listened to each other talk about the defining moment

[21:46]when they realized that they wanted to go to outer space.

[21:49]And all of a sudden, they realized, you know what?

[21:51]We have all these differences.

[21:52]But we also share a really uncommon commonality

[21:56]with something that only hundreds of people in human history

[21:58]can relate to.

[22:00]And it was sort of a turning point for me

[22:01]because I realized everyone has an origin story.

[22:04]We've all had those defining moments that have shifted

[22:07]our ideas of who we want to be or how we want to lead our lives.

[22:11]And how often we actually shared those moments

[22:13]with the people that we interact with every day.

[22:15]I would say probably not often enough.

[22:17]Totally.

[22:18]Also, I find if you ask people even something simple about themselves

[22:21]when they're not expecting it, like how you met your spouse

[22:24]because I'm always like totally curious

[22:26]about those relationship origin stories,

[22:28]you end up learning so much about the person

[22:31]in another context, too.

[22:32]People just want to tell you.

[22:33]And I really want to hear it.

[22:35]Tell me about it.

[22:37]It's speaking of wanting to hear it.

[22:38]Tell me a little more about how you got to where you are

[22:41]and how also your professional diving experience somehow

[22:44]made its way into your story.

[22:46]Yeah, I guess I'll start with diving.

[22:48]So I fell in love with diving right before I started high school

[22:51]and it was probably a bad idea

[22:53]because I was afraid of heights and I was completely

[22:55]inflexible and I walked like Frankenstein.

[22:57]But I had an incredible co-charic best who said,

[23:00]I will never cut an athlete who wants to be here.

[23:03]And he said, I will invest as much time in coaching you

[23:06]as you put into this sport.

[23:08]And he saw more potential in me than I saw in myself

[23:11]and my biggest, my biggest hurdle in diving

[23:14]aside from all the physical limitations

[23:16]was I was just terrified of trying new dives.

[23:18]And I would sit at the end of the board shaking,

[23:21]waiting to, yeah, I was supposed to,

[23:23]I look back now and think, what was I doing?

[23:25]Why?

[23:26]But I remember one practice in particular

[23:29]where I was supposed to learn a,

[23:30]I'm supposed to do two and a half summer salts in a twist

[23:33]and dive in headfirst without getting lost.

[23:36]And I just stood there shaking frozen for 20, 25 minutes.

[23:40]And finally, Eric said, Adam,

[23:43]are you going to do this type of one day?

[23:46]Are you ever going to do this type?

[23:47]And I said, of course, I know this is a major goal of mine

[23:50]and it will help me reach some of the,

[23:53]some of the heights that I've really dreamed of

[23:54]for the last few years.

[23:56]And he said, well, then what are you waiting for?

[23:59]And there were so many moments like that in my diving career

[24:02]that really helped me appreciate the importance

[24:04]of psychology.

[24:04]And as I started coaching,

[24:06]and especially after I retired from diving,

[24:08]I found myself applying a lot of what had learned from Eric

[24:11]with other divers and wanting to pay that forward.

[24:14]And at some point, it clicked that if I became a psychologist,

[24:17]there was so much knowledge collecting dust

[24:19]and bunch of boring academic journal articles

[24:21]that could actually help people

[24:22]live more meaningful lives.

[24:24]And maybe have fewer regrets too.

[24:26]And so I think diving probably planted a lot

[24:27]of those early seeds.

[24:29]Wow. So you did all the diving,

[24:31]you started coaching, you stumbled on psychology,

[24:35]you decided that was for you and then what happened?

[24:38]Then I was lucky to have a few professors

[24:40]who just transformed the way I saw the world.

[24:42]I took a social psychology class with Ellen Langer

[24:45]where every day I would come into class

[24:47]and I'd have an assumption shattered.

[24:50]Then I took an organizational psychology class

[24:52]with Richard Hackman who really turned upside down my view

[24:55]of what it meant to have a motivating job.

[24:57]And he also just, he got me to rethink

[25:00]what my career path might be

[25:02]because one of the things I hated most

[25:05]about what do you wanna be when you grow up question

[25:07]was there were a lot of different things I wanted to do.

[25:09]And I didn't see how they could fit into one career.

[25:11]And as I listened to Richard talking about

[25:14]how he didn't know what he wanted to do.

[25:15]So he just got a job where he got to study

[25:18]all the jobs he found interesting.

[25:20]He studied orchestra conductors when he wanted to be a musician.

[25:23]He studied airline cockpit crews when he wanted to be a pilot.

[25:27]He studied intelligence agencies

[25:29]and how to make their teams great

[25:30]when he wanted to be a spy.

[25:32]And I thought, well, this is the perfect job.

[25:34]I'm gonna try to study and improve other people's jobs.

[25:38]And it really crystallized then.

[25:40]Wow. And when did writing make its way into your life?

[25:44]I've always loved writing.

[25:45]I think the first time I thought seriously about being a writer

[25:48]was the summer after a freshman year of college

[25:50]when I started writing a novel.

[25:52]I was reading a lot of thrillers and mysteries

[25:54]and sci-fi books.

[25:54]And I thought it would be fun to try to write one.

[25:57]And then I got busy and forgot about it.

[25:59]And then the next year I read a bunch of books

[26:03]that really took psychology and made it mainstream.

[26:06]I started reading Malcolm Gladwell.

[26:07]I read she sent me a high on flow.

[26:09]I read Childini on influence.

[26:11]And I was mesmerized by the way

[26:13]that psychology came to life.

[26:15]And I thought at some point in my career,

[26:17]maybe I wanna do that.

[26:18]And then I forgot about it again

[26:20]and got very focused on doing research and teaching my classes.

[26:24]And then after I got tenure,

[26:26]I felt like I no longer had an excuse

[26:28]to only communicate to other professors

[26:30]and decided it was time to try reaching a broader audience.

[26:33]And then what was it like when originals became such a hit?

[26:37]It was sort of a shock.

[26:39]I had really taken the experience a little bit for granted

[26:42]because I guess the short version of the story is,

[26:46]so my first book given take came out in 2013.

[26:49]And I didn't expect anyone to read it.

[26:51]I just, I promised my students that I was gonna try

[26:55]to build a bridge from the ivory tower to Main Street.

[26:58]And it got a lot more interest and attention

[27:01]than I expected.

[27:02]And at some point during that process,

[27:04]I just started to take for granted that I was an author.

[27:07]So original, it comes out.

[27:09]And a friend calls me and says,

[27:10]what are you doing to celebrate and mark the moment?

[27:13]And I said, nothing, I'm a writer, that's what we do.

[27:15]We write, I write books.

[27:17]This isn't a milestone.

[27:19]And she said really, really, seriously,

[27:21]you spent you poured more than a year of your life

[27:23]into this project.

[27:24]Shouldn't you do something to appreciate it?

[27:27]And after thinking about it for a little while,

[27:29]I realized I need to get better at getting in touch

[27:32]with my past self.

[27:33]And so what I ended up doing is thinking about,

[27:37]okay, how excited would the me of five years ago have been?

[27:40]If I had not only published a second book,

[27:42]but people actually read it, I would have been ecstatic.

[27:46]And I've tried to keep that in mind every time

[27:48]I accomplished something that seems worthwhile

[27:51]or took a lot of effort is to say,

[27:53]okay, I might not appreciate this now,

[27:55]but there's an old version of me

[27:56]that would have been overjoyed.

[27:58]And I need to keep that in mind.

[28:00]The old version, who was playing Nintendo

[28:02]so much that you got written up in a local paper,

[28:06]yes.

[28:07]Yes, the dark side of Nintendo kid who would have thought,

[28:12]okay, I guess I'm probably gonna be a professional video gamer.

[28:15]So do you have any advice to aspiring authors?

[28:19]Advice to aspiring authors.

[28:21]I think it's dangerous to take advice

[28:24]from people who don't know you at all.

[28:27]But I would say that the advice you give to other people

[28:30]is often the advice you need to take for yourself.

[28:33]So I would pay attention, if you're an aspiring writer,

[28:36]you probably know some other people who like to write,

[28:38]maybe even some people who write for a living.

[28:41]And I'm sure they've come to you at some point,

[28:43]asking for advice on what to write

[28:45]or how to overcome procrastination

[28:47]or how to improve their work.

[28:48]And I would just say pay attention to the guidance

[28:50]that you give them and then apply it to your own writing.

[28:54]Okay, love it.

[28:55]Well Adam, thank you, this was so much fun.

[28:58]Thank you for not making me rethink my decision

[29:01]and having on my show and for spending the time with me today.

[29:04]It was such a treat to be here, Zippy.

[29:05]Thank you for having me.

[29:06]And I have to ask you, is there something you think

[29:09]I should rethink?

[29:11]Maybe how often you post about amazing podcasters

[29:15]and maybe you should do that more often.

[29:17]Oh, I like it.

[29:18]I have not done that enough.

[29:21]That's a very good point.

[29:22]There you go.

[29:23]I'm thinking, I'm actually thinking I've been doing

[29:27]a whole bunch of fascinating interviews, obviously,

[29:28]over the past week or two, getting ready for book launch

[29:31]and thinking about maybe doing a roundup post

[29:32]so that they're all in one place as opposed to saying,

[29:35]all right, I'm gonna do a one off share of each episode

[29:37]and then it's only gonna reach a subset of an audience.

[29:41]Maybe I can amplify it by putting them all together.

[29:43]What do you think?

[29:44]I like that.

[29:45]I think that's great.

[29:46]All right, I'll run the experiment, we'll see how it goes.

[29:47]Okay, I'll be watching.

[29:49]I really appreciate you having me.

[29:51]And thank you for also just doing so much homework.

[29:54]I can't believe you read the book and also watch the TED Talk.

[29:57]I hope it didn't ruin your day.

[29:58]It didn't at all.

[29:59]I found out.

[30:00]of it, super fascinating.

[30:01]Truly.

[30:02]Well, thank you.

[30:03]This is a pleasure.

[30:04]OK, take care.

[30:05]Bye.

[30:07]Today's episode has been sponsored by This Is Everything,

[30:10]the podcast by Ali Levine.

[30:12]And just a reminder, again, please pre-order a copy

[30:15]of my book, Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology

[30:19]and go to my website under the Anthology tab

[30:23]for the fundraiser.

[30:24]And I hope you'll buy a ticket and join me

[30:27]for, and I should have mentioned, all proceeds

[30:29]go to COVID-19 research.

[30:31]So please join me for the fundraiser.

[30:34]Thanks so much.

[30:35]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have

[30:37]Time to Read Books.

[30:38]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at ZB Owens,

[30:41]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

[30:43]Also, sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com

[30:46]and sign up for my virtual book club

[30:47]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.

[30:50]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound

[30:53]for the sound editing.

[30:54]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions

[30:56]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.