Kristin Hannah, THE FOUR WINDS
[0:01]Hi, this is Vivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:06]I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology,
[0:12]which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to Accarantine Anthology.
[0:16]I'll proceed to that book, go to COVID-19 Vaccine Research, and I'm the editor-in-chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a new publication on Medium,
[0:24]and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there.
[0:28]And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram, ad-Zibioins, and my website at zibioins.com.
[0:34]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:36]I had the best time interviewing Kristen Hannah, who is most recently the author of The Four Winds,
[0:43]but as you probably all know, is an award-winning and best-selling author of more than 20 novels,
[0:49]including the International Blockbuster, The Nightingale, Winter Garden, Night Road, and Firefly Lane.
[0:55]Her novel The Nightingale has been published in 43 languages, and is currently in movie production at Tristar Pictures,
[1:02]which also optioned her novel The Great Alone.
[1:05]Her novel Home Front has been optioned for film by 1492 Films, which produced the Oscar-nominated The Help with Chris Columbus attached to direct.
[1:14]And as you also probably all know, Firefly Lane recently came out on Netflix, and is like number one there,
[1:20]and The Four Winds has also just come out.
[1:22]Kristen is a former lawyer turned writer who lives in the Pacific Northwest with her husband.
[1:27]Her novel Firefly Lane became a runaway bestseller in 2009, a touchstone novel that brought women together,
[1:34]and The Nightingale in 2015 was voted a best book of the year by Amazon Buzzfeed, iTunes Library Journal paste,
[1:41]The Wall Street Journal, and The Week.
[1:43]Additionally, The Novel won the coveted Goodreads and People's Choice Awards, the audiobook of The Nightingale,
[1:48]won the audiobook of the year award in the fiction category.
[1:51]And by the way, I am actually home with COVID.
[1:54]When you listen to this, it will be, let's see, I think day eight of my having COVID,
[2:00]and at the very beginning, all I was doing was laying staring up at the ceiling,
[2:04]and listening to the audiobook of The Nightingale.
[2:06]So I hope you enjoyed this episode.
[2:08]I was thrilled and honored to have interviewed Kristen, especially before I got sick.
[2:13]Welcome, Kristen. Thank you so much for coming on Momstone. Have time to read books.
[2:18]Thank you. I am honored to be here.
[2:21]This is such a thrill, and I have loved like holding onto your book the last, like a couple months.
[2:27]I feel like this is like the major coup is like getting your book early. I was like, okay, I've made it.
[2:33]Anyway, congratulations on the four wins. Wow.
[2:38]How do you feel with this finally coming out? Oh my gosh.
[2:42]You know, it's all sort of surreal, you know, because it's, it's firefly lane.
[2:47]The series coming out the day after the four wins, the book.
[2:51]And, you know, it's, of gosh, it's been 15 years, you know, for firefly lane.
[2:55]And I've been working on the four wins for almost four years.
[2:58]So it's just this amazing confluence of, I don't know, just excitement all in one place.
[3:04]Oh my gosh, everything coming together at the same time.
[3:07]It's amazing. Oh my gosh.
[3:09]Well, let's talk about Elsa. By the way, did you know that the character in frozen was named Elsa when you named your character.
[3:18]I must admit that I did. Yes.
[3:21]Okay, all right.
[3:22]I don't wonder anything.
[3:23]It was before frozen was quite the cultural phenomenon that it is now, but yeah.
[3:28]Okay. Well, I just had to, I just had to wonder.
[3:32]There is a part in the four wins, well, there are many parts where Elsa's love of books sort of pervade the entire narrative.
[3:40]And there's one quote I just wanted to read to you because I'm about to put it on my bulletin board books had always been her solace novels gave her this space to be bold, brave, beautiful.
[3:50]If only in her imagination. I love that.
[3:53]Talk to me about books and how books have given you solace or how writing books have given other people's solace or you as well.
[4:02]Well, I mean, you know, you certainly, I don't think anyone gets to where I am having, you know, written 24 novels without being, you know, a voracious reader your whole life, you know, that's really sort of the beginning.
[4:17]And so I don't, it doesn't matter which of my books you read, you could read the great alone and Lenny in the 70s or Firefly Lane and Kate in the 70s and 80s.
[4:29]Books are always the place that my characters go when the world bruises them or when they need to sort of recharge or regroup and just, you know, to enjoy themselves.
[4:42]I think that's because that is something A that I understand because it's a big part of my own life, but also I think that it's just important to show people reading as much as we can and a lot of these books.
[4:58]You can go through your life and say these are the touchstone books, you know, I was reading the Lord of the Rings when I was here, I was reading the Thornbirds when I was here, you know, these books are the mile markers of our lives and so I love being able to remind readers of that.
[5:16]Well, very important and just amazing and I love how Elsa, but always try to bring books with her and how leaving books behind when she joined West was such an ordeal and which books to bring from her parent's house, I could just see her like, Oh, how do you pick.
[5:32]Oh, wow. There's also, of course, this whole narrative of Elsa being a mother and what would a mother do for her child, which I think is also another theme of yours.
[5:43]And there's the one scene which has stayed with me so much when Elsa is pushing and to the hospital and her think, you know, her, the skin on her palms is gone and you know, she's about to collapse, but she's pushing this wheelbarrow.
[5:57]And then finally, you know, her in-laws come to rescue her and she's just like, I'm just and then her mother-in-law says a mother and it's like everyone has their limitations.
[6:07]Tell me a little bit more about that scene.
[6:09]And then Elsa is far and away, my favorite character I've ever created. I think she's just, you know, she has a tough beginning, but she's one of those characters and represents one of those people who throw themselves all in for whatever it is they're passionate about whatever it is they love about.
[6:28]She, you know, she doesn't love a little. She loves deeply, dangerously, unreservedly.
[6:34]And it is of course, motherhood that teaches her that because I think for a lot of women, certainly for me, the moment they put your child in your arms, you understand that there's a different dimension to love that that it can be bigger than you ever imagined.
[6:53]And so I'm very drawn to this idea of, you know, the whole, the mother who can lift a car to save her child, you know, and that kind of stuff.
[7:02]So, so I really like to not only explore and dramatize that, but to, I guess to remind people that it's there and how important it is.
[7:13]Have you had a moment with your son, for instance, where you felt like you needed your superhuman strength.
[7:20]I don't know about super human strength. There was a couple of years there were trying to keep up with him skiing and and being certain that I needed to keep him safe.
[7:29]When clearly he was out skiing me, you know, there was a lot of that sort of stuff, but I don't think I've ever needed superhuman strength.
[7:37]I have needed superhuman emotional strength.
[7:41]I feel with the teen years for sure.
[7:44]Yes, I feel like there's not enough of that to go around for.
[7:48]Yeah, I'll need those regular doses.
[7:51]I've read that you depend on your morning run to work out. Is that still true?
[7:57]Yes, you know, since we're in lockdown here. I'm in Washington state.
[8:02]And so I haven't, haven't been able to travel much.
[8:06]So now my work, my morning run is a little more difficult because it, it rains here a lot in the winter.
[8:12]So now I'm sort of moving on to an elliptical, but it, it's pretty cool actually.
[8:18]It, it allows me to like watch all these movies. I'm currently watching Nodding Hill that I just haven't sat down and watched for a long time.
[8:26]So it's fine. Excellent. I know I used to think that my workouts on the elliptical were like a joke, but now I'm like, wow, if only I could get back there.
[8:37]That would be great.
[8:40]So much for that.
[8:42]Well, tell me a little bit more about like your writing process and how you come up with the ideas for really for your main characters and then all the settings for what they go through.
[8:51]I know you've written over 20 bucks in this way.
[8:54]There's a lot, a lot of books and, and my process has changed a lot.
[8:59]And I can talk about if you're interested, you know, the various stages of it and the various processes that I went through at the various times of my life.
[9:08]But at this particular moment, the way it works is I come up with sort of the bones of an idea and I then begin researching and it takes me for these historical novels.
[9:23]It takes about a year of research to both read everything I need to read and interview people and travel, hopefully.
[9:31]And then, you know, come up with the actual story and begin to write.
[9:36]And in this particular book, I did all of that work and I started writing and I was about 350 pages in when Elsa appeared as a walk on character.
[9:50]And I felt this connection to her instantly and interestingly part of it was that she came as.
[10:00]as a reader, you know.
[10:01]And so that was what she had brought into the Martinelli family originally.
[10:05]And so, you know, I kept working and kept writing and got to the end of that draft.
[10:11]And by the end, I did, I realized that I had mistaken what my plot needed to be
[10:18]and who my characters needed to be.
[10:21]And I was writing this big sweeping love story.
[10:24]And what I really needed to be writing was about a woman's resilience as she fights
[10:31]to stay alive in this environment.
[10:33]And so I basically threw all of that away and started over with Elsa as my viewpoint
[10:41]character. And that's when I think the book really came to life.
[10:44]So like, what does that afternoon look like when you go to a realization like that?
[10:49]It's not pretty. Let me tell you, it's, you know, it's a lot of wine and whining with
[10:55]girlfriends, a lot of staring at the wall, a lot of thinking, no, I can fix it.
[11:00]I can, I don't have to go that far, you know, and a lot of conversations with yourself
[11:06]about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
[11:09]But for me personally, once I not only see an error, it takes two things.
[11:16]I have to see a fundamental error, which is that I felt I was writing not the strongest
[11:21]book about the depression and the dustbowl that I could.
[11:25]And I need to have real clarity on how to fix it.
[11:30]And so when I decided to make Elsa and Loretta, mother and daughter and make this
[11:37]a book about motherhood essentially and the fight for survival, then once that
[11:44]occurs to me, I just can't look away.
[11:46]I can try, but it's all wasted time.
[11:49]So I find that the most important thing for me for writing the book I ultimately
[11:57]publish is clarity of purpose.
[12:00]And sometimes that just takes a while.
[12:02]You have to write yourself to it.
[12:05]You can't necessarily know it ahead or I can't.
[12:08]Wow.
[12:08]Well, at least you're sort of comfortable with that process.
[12:11]It's not, it's not good.
[12:14]Well, I feel like in this book, the descriptions are so vivid, especially the
[12:21]dust storms and that one black storm and the chickens, like laying there, like
[12:26]listless because it's so hot.
[12:29]I just felt like I have to say I was reading it and then I went in to make
[12:33]breakfast for the kids because I get up really early.
[12:35]Anyway, I was reading it and I went to like open up the egg carton to make eggs.
[12:39]And I was like holding each egg and I was like, I really need to appreciate these
[12:43]eggs because in the book, you know, they were like, you know, egg will pop out.
[12:48]So anyway, you completely put the reader back in that framework of
[12:52]desperation and hopelessness and yet commitment to the land.
[12:57]So it was like such a, so just tell me about how you did that.
[13:00]I mean, you couldn't possibly have put yourself in dust storms as research, right?
[13:04]No.
[13:05]No.
[13:06]I mean, that's the, that's what I love, love, love about writing.
[13:09]You know, really it's our job to take all of the information that we can gather.
[13:16]So here's, here's what everything I can find out about the dust storms through
[13:21]the words of the people who lived through them, through the newspaper, clippings,
[13:25]through old photographs, you know, all of that sort of stuff.
[13:28]And then it's my job to take all of that information and turn it into words that
[13:37]and make you actually feel what's happening as opposed to simply being aware of
[13:42]what's happening.
[13:44]And, you know, from a writing standpoint, it's really mostly for me about specific
[13:51]detail and emotion, you know, it's important to me that the reader feel what it feels
[13:58]like, you know, to wake up in the morning and have your body covered with dust and
[14:04]outlined, you know, when the dust hits and the centipedes come climbing out of the walls
[14:09]because they're trying to get away too, you know, all of these things that, that you would
[14:14]never think of on your own and then sort of, you know, put you through that.
[14:18]And then I, you know, I tend to add the extra layer, which is, and you're responsible
[14:24]for another human life on top of it, you know, it's not just saving yourself.
[14:28]You have to save your children.
[14:30]And I think it's the best way to learn whether it's historically the dust ball or whether
[14:38]it's too broadcast journalist in the 80s.
[14:41]It doesn't really matter when it is set.
[14:44]It's about, again, clarity and how good I am at painting a word portrait.
[14:51]Wow.
[14:51]You're like the Picasso of the word.
[14:55]Not to just try to butter you up or anything.
[14:58]But I'm not sure the most vivid descriptions.
[15:01]I felt like I needed to take a long shower and I hear this as long as I do.
[15:06]Oh, no, I hate saying things people hear a lot.
[15:09]All right.
[15:09]Well, anyway, I felt like I needed a hot shower after the spec, but that's okay.
[15:13]And I feel like perhaps having read the great alone before this book, you go from like cold climate
[15:20]to hot climate.
[15:22]So I'm wondering like, where are we going to go next?
[15:24]I feel like I'm with you on all these different temperatures.
[15:27]You know, I don't know.
[15:28]For me as a writer, the hardest part of this process is the idea.
[15:33]I have a lot of friends who are writers and they have like file cabinets full of,
[15:37]oh, somebody, I'm going to write this book and this book and this book, I don't do that.
[15:41]I am, I'm lucky to come up with one idea that I care enough about to spend two or three years
[15:48]on, you know, I have to really love what I'm doing.
[15:51]And so, and during this pandemic, I've been like a lot of people, you know, not quite as productive
[15:58]as I'm used to being and not quite as creative.
[16:02]So I am just as excited to see what I'm going to do next as anybody else.
[16:09]I always feel a little bad at asking, what are you going to do when like you've just done
[16:12]something amazing, right?
[16:14]Don't forget to forget that.
[16:15]I think I'm just done.
[16:17]So what do you do?
[16:18]Like, let's say after you hand in a big book like this, it's taking you years to write and research
[16:24]and edits and two almost completely different books and you hand it in, you send it off to the publisher
[16:30]like, then what do you do?
[16:31]Like, what is that night?
[16:32]What does that feel like?
[16:35]Well, the way I work, which you may have gleaned from previous answers,
[16:42]I'm a very editorial writer and I'm a very collaborative writer.
[16:46]I really like input and I really like fixing things and rewriting them.
[16:52]So between me turning the book into my editor, which is at the moment when it's as good as I
[17:00]think I can make it.
[17:01]That's, you know, however long that is, that's when I turn the book into my editor.
[17:06]And she has learned, and we have learned the way we work together best is to be sort of not only
[17:13]brutally honest, but always forward looking.
[17:19]So I'm trying to figure out how to say this.
[17:21]So she doesn't necessarily only edit what's on the page.
[17:25]She edits what she thinks could be on the page.
[17:29]And so for example, when I turned this book in the first time to her, Elsa and Loretta were
[17:36]sisters in law and the book went on for another 300 pages after this end.
[17:42]So it was this huge sweeping epic that went through the 40s.
[17:46]And, you know, she said, I don't think this last 300 works.
[17:51]I just, I think that the dust storm and California and that is also big that going on just diminishes
[17:59]that.
[18:01]And so, you know, so I gave that a lot of thought and tried to figure out how to focus on that
[18:08]part of the story.
[18:09]And so that was when it became Elsa and Loretta as mother and daughter.
[18:14]And so that's been another six months while I'm doing that.
[18:19]And then finally, you know, when she, when my editor says, you're done,
[18:25]that is the champagne moment.
[18:27]That's when I like popped the court.
[18:30]I mean, I popped the court all the way through.
[18:32]Don't mean online.
[18:33]I'm constantly celebrating, you know, oh, that's a good sentence.
[18:37]I need champagne.
[18:38]But that's when I really, you know, when she tells me I'm done,
[18:42]that's when I really kind of take a deep breath and to the best of my ability
[18:48]walk away emotionally and stop obsessing about how to make it better.
[18:54]And so then how does the film world work with your, like, putting to bed of these titles when
[19:00]you have now adaptations in the mix and all of that?
[19:03]Well, this, you know, this week is my first.
[19:07]I mean, I've had a lot of things option.
[19:09]I've had a lot of things in development.
[19:11]You know, Nightingale is supposed to start filming again in this month, I think, or next month.
[19:17]But firefight line is the first thing that's actually made it to the screen.
[19:21]So this is my, you know, my first experience with seeing something that is my world
[19:29]and someone else's world at the same time.
[19:31]So it's kind of this merging of ideas.
[19:35]And I have to say, I mean, I think that the friendship between Tali and Kate, which is
[19:42]the core of that novel, it is everything that that novel is about.
[19:46]I think they've done an amazing, amazing job with.
[19:50]I think Katherine Hygo and Sarah Chalk are just amazing and their chemistry is great.
[19:56]And, and all my girlfriends are in love with Ben Lawson, who plays John
[20:00]And so it's very exciting.
[20:03]I mean, it's exciting.
[20:04]It's really awesome.
[20:05]I love hearing about you talk about your girlfriends
[20:08]because you can tell how important they are.
[20:10]And even the relationship with Jean and Elsa in the book
[20:13]speaks to this bond of female friendship
[20:16]and what you wouldn't do for the other person you love,
[20:19]like you love them like family.
[20:20]Tell me about some close friends
[20:22]or how your friend group works,
[20:24]like the importance of friendship in your life.
[20:26]Well, I mean, you know, friendship is always important.
[20:30]And I think we women have always formed,
[20:33]especially in our teen years, very intense,
[20:37]you know, very bold friendships.
[20:39]And I think if you're lucky enough
[20:41]to make the kind of friend that can go through life,
[20:45]it means a lot of things, you know,
[20:47]because I think that a friendship like a marriage
[20:51]takes work and it isn't always perfect.
[20:54]And there are bumps in the road.
[20:55]And so it's all about, you know, being honest,
[20:59]taking care of each other, loving each other
[21:02]and getting each other through good times and bad times.
[21:05]And I know that of all the times in my life,
[21:09]the two times I needed my friends the most
[21:12]were when my mother was dying of breast cancer
[21:15]when I was young and during my son's teen years.
[21:19]And, you know, he was a great kid, you know,
[21:22]and yet still that whole teenage thing,
[21:27]you know, there were a lot of times when I called my girlfriends
[21:30]and said, you know, we gotta have a glass of wine.
[21:32]Somebody has to tell me that this is normal
[21:36]and we're gonna be okay.
[21:37]And that's what we did for each other.
[21:39]And I love it.
[21:41]Did your son like get over that?
[21:43]Like for people who have teen sons right now,
[21:45]our teen daughters and our despairing hearing
[21:47]your description of this, does it get better?
[21:50]Well, to be fair, he was a boy.
[21:53]And girls, I think are tougher on their moms
[21:56]than boys are, but maybe I'm wrong
[21:57]because I, you know, I don't have a daughter.
[21:59]I know I was tough on my mom.
[22:01]I do know that my son, Red Firefly Lane, as an adult,
[22:06]and called me when he finished and he said,
[22:08]wow, mom, I'm really sorry for all those sleepless nights.
[22:12]What I was trying to sneak out of the house or whatever.
[22:17]What was it like giving your mom a hard time
[22:20]and then having to cope with her loss?
[22:22]I mean, there are obviously themes that pervade this.
[22:25]It's in my work all the time.
[22:28]You know, I mean, I think, you know,
[22:29]not to be overly psychological about her or anything,
[22:33]but clearly I lost my mom when I was 24.
[22:36]And, you know, that loss just, it sort of permeates you
[22:41]and I had not grown up enough to be the daughter
[22:46]that I wanted to be that I would want to be now, you know?
[22:49]And I was what she raised me to be,
[22:52]which is opinionated and powerful and strong.
[22:56]And when that's, you know, what you learn,
[22:58]the first person you turn that on is your mom.
[23:01]I mean, it's just sort of a natural course of events.
[23:04]And so, you know, that's probably the only regret
[23:10]in my life is that, you know, we didn't sort of
[23:13]get tons of time after all of that.
[23:18]But I know she is, she is somewhere with a martini
[23:22]and she is very happy and very proud of me.
[23:25]Is there anything you wish you could say?
[23:28]Oh, I mean, I would say I'm sorry.
[23:31]I, you know, I'm sorry that I thought
[23:33]I knew everything in the world.
[23:34]Maybe you did.
[23:35]I'm pretty sure not.
[23:39]Let's give you the benefit of the doubt.
[23:40]You never know.
[23:41]You never know.
[23:42]Well, I'm so sorry for that loss.
[23:44]It's such a young age.
[23:45]And it's also such a tough time because it's right.
[23:48]And the crux of sort of developing your adult identity to,
[23:52]you know, I don't know.
[23:53]I mean, there's no good age, but I don't know.
[23:55]I feel like that's an impression of a point
[23:57]where your life can go off in so many ways.
[23:59]But what advice would you have to aspiring authors?
[24:03]You know, I mean, I guess the bottom line is,
[24:07]I personally believe that this is learnable
[24:09]and it's teachable.
[24:11]So I'm not one of those people who believe that writing is magic
[24:15]and that you either have talent or you don't.
[24:17]I believe that, you know, like you can become a lawyer
[24:20]or an accountant or a pediatrician,
[24:22]you can learn to become a writer.
[24:25]And it requires you to have a lot of belief in yourself,
[24:32]even when the evidence tells you not to, you know,
[24:35]as you're failing along the way.
[24:38]And I think you have to,
[24:42]you have to really devote yourself to it.
[24:44]You know, there's a lot of people
[24:46]who want to write a novel and believe they're talented,
[24:49]but never actually get around to it.
[24:52]The key to being a writer is you have to write
[24:55]because you can't think your way in to become an novelist
[24:59]or to writing a book.
[25:02]You have to write your way there,
[25:03]sentence by sentence paragraph by paragraph year after year
[25:06]after year.
[25:08]And the thing that's amazing about that is you get better.
[25:13]I mean, you know, it's like anything else.
[25:15]You practice that and you get better.
[25:18]And, you know, I think you can learn, obviously, by reading.
[25:22]I think finding a really good, really honest critique partner.
[25:27]Someone you can, you know,
[25:29]work back and forth with is very important.
[25:32]And, you know, taking classes or conferences or anything like that
[25:37]that you can do and then set goals for yourself.
[25:40]You know, as a published novelist,
[25:43]you have to turn books in.
[25:46]And one of the best ways to get to that stage
[25:50]is to set goals and meet them
[25:53]and learn how to write on a schedule.
[25:55]Excellent.
[25:55]Very much a lot of a lot of calendar apps and things anyway.
[26:00]Well, with all of this excitement going on,
[26:03]what are some like final thoughts
[26:05]of how you can take advantage of this?
[26:07]Or, you know, after all this work,
[26:11]like you finally are getting to this place of like
[26:14]having a moment, having not that you haven't had it
[26:17]with night and girl and great alone and everything.
[26:18]But like right now, you're just like having a moment,
[26:21]bottle that up for us.
[26:22]You know, I don't even really know quite how to process it.
[26:27]You know, it's just, it's so big.
[26:30]It's so much bigger than anything I ever dreamed for hoped
[26:34]for wanted, expected.
[26:37]You know, it's like this gift moment from the universe
[26:40]is all I can say.
[26:41]I mean, I've been doing this for over 30 years.
[26:44]And, you know, the really great part about all of it
[26:49]is not that I'm here at this moment,
[26:51]which is super exciting and, you know,
[26:53]we're all having a lot of fun with it.
[26:56]But the real joy is that I have been lucky enough
[27:01]to be a working writer for 30 years.
[27:03]You know, to be able to be the at home mom that I wanted now,
[27:07]I'm able to travel if I want to, you know,
[27:11]so what I really, I guess,
[27:13]and most grateful for is just the life
[27:16]that writing has afforded me and given me.
[27:19]Well, I'm grateful for you taking us into all these other lives.
[27:24]Right.
[27:25]Each of your novels is just so immersive
[27:27]and you get all these different places and emotions
[27:31]and people and scenes.
[27:33]And it's also visual and memorable.
[27:36]So as you have spent 30 years of writing away,
[27:40]we've all been like, you know, following you along
[27:44]around the world on our own little travels.
[27:46]So anyway, it's such an honor to talk to you.
[27:49]Congratulations.
[27:50]Thank you for this amazing, immersive book.
[27:54]I will feel dirty forever.
[27:56]And even just holding it in my hands,
[27:59]I have to like, just it up.
[28:01]So thank you for all that.
[28:02]Well, and thank you so, so much for your support of writers
[28:07]and our work.
[28:09]And I'm assuming you're a writer
[28:13]and so good luck with everything and enjoy the journey.
[28:17]Thank you.
[28:18]I appreciate it.
[28:19]Thank you.
[28:20]All right. Take care.
[28:21]Thank you.
[28:22]Bye bye.
[28:24]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[28:26]to Read Books.
[28:27]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebiowens
[28:30]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:32]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[28:35]and sign up for my virtual book club
[28:36]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[28:39]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[28:42]for the Sound Editing.
[28:43]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[28:45]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.