Joann Lublin, POWER MOMS: HOW EXECUTIVE MOTHERS NAVIGATE WORK AND LIFE
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[0:34]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:38]Joanne Leblin is the author of Power Moms, How Executive Mothers, Navigate, Work, and Life.
[0:43]She is the former management news editor of the Wall Street Journal,
[0:46]and created its first career advice column, which she wrote until May of 2020.
[0:51]Joanne shared the journal's 2003 Pulitzer Prize for stories about corporate scandals.
[0:56]In 2018, she won the Gerald Loeb Lifetime Achievement Award,
[0:59]the highest accolade in business journalism.
[1:01]Joanne is the author of two books about female business leaders.
[1:05]Her first popular leadership book, Earning It, Hard One Lessons from Trailblazing Women,
[1:09]at the top of the business world, offers insights from 52 high-level executive women
[1:14]about obstacles they overcame.
[1:16]And her latest, of course, is Power Moms.
[1:18]Welcome to Anne.
[1:19]Thanks so much for coming on Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[1:21]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:23]It's my pleasure.
[1:24]And your book was Fantastic Power Moms, How Executive Mothers, Navigate, Work, and Life.
[1:30]This was awesome.
[1:31]And by the way, the subtitle does not reflect that it's not only moms of one generation,
[1:36]but also the adult children of the next generation, which is so genius to contrast and compare.
[1:42]So I loved that.
[1:43]In fact, the book is about three different generations, if you think about it,
[1:47]because I interviewed 111 women all together, of whom 86 were women who had children and
[1:55]became executives, from two generations.
[1:58]My generation, the boomers, and the generation of millennials and Genexers, women in their
[2:04]30s and early 40s.
[2:06]Separate from that, I interviewed roughly two dozen adult daughters of the boomers,
[2:12]who for the most part were women in their 20s, to ask them what was it like
[2:17]rowing up with, or on the blank?
[2:20]Somebody say like Mindy Grossman of WWE, Weight Watchers, International,
[2:24]having her as your mom, or what was that like?
[2:27]And of course, there's also a very personal side to this book,
[2:31]because my publisher insisted that every chapter start with a personal anecdote.
[2:37]So my husband's in here, my adult daughters in here, my adult son,
[2:42]and it became kind of a family affair, so speak.
[2:46]Well, honestly, those were my favorite parts.
[2:48]I mean, I appreciated all the advice, and I need that, and it was great and helpful,
[2:52]and interesting.
[2:53]About four kids, right?
[2:55]I have four kids.
[2:56]I feel like not so power mom today, but I feel like, but everything being up in the air on
[3:02]your cover, that that is an accurate reflection of the state of my life.
[3:06]Older your children.
[3:07]I have 13-year-old twins, boy girl, and then a seven-year-old girl and a six-year-old boy.
[3:12]Yeah, so it's busy, but it's great.
[3:16]But, you know, I loved, first of all, how you threw away the concept of work-life balance
[3:21]and called it work-life sway.
[3:22]Tell me more about that, because that was, I'm like, finally, I don't have to try
[3:27]to achieve balance.
[3:29]Well, frankly, this notion that work-life balance is an impossible ideal,
[3:34]is something I addressed in one chapter of my first book, which was called Ernie.
[3:38]And that was a chapter whose title was, manager moms are not acrobats.
[3:43]DAW, and when I started reporting this book and reaching out to these younger executive moms,
[3:49]these women in their 30s and early 40s, the first one I actually met said, you know,
[3:56]have you heard of work-life sway?
[3:57]I was like, what?
[3:59]What's that?
[4:00]You know?
[4:00]And she said, it's the idea that we have to accept that work-life balance is a myth.
[4:07]It's an ideal.
[4:07]It's never can be achieved.
[4:09]And we have to acknowledge the fact that we have two different parts to our lives.
[4:14]And we're going to sway back and forth as needed and have one part of our life and
[4:18]true to the other when it's important and not get all bent out of shape about that.
[4:25]And I was like, okay, you know, tell me here what you're talking about.
[4:28]And so this woman is an executive for a very important of global auction house.
[4:33]She runs their photography business worldwide.
[4:37]But, you know, when her one of her two sons took a step for the first time,
[4:43]her many texted her a video.
[4:46]And so she was, you know, it was sort of, I guess it was live, it was what it was.
[4:50]She was watching her toddler take his first step and she was at the office.
[4:56]And, you know, those in my generation, if God forbid our child did take the first step while
[5:02]they were being cared for by the caregiver, the caregivers knew not to tell you.
[5:09]So that you could see it happen.
[5:10]And frankly, I have no idea if either one of my children started walking for the first time
[5:16]when they were in the care of a child caregiver.
[5:18]I data with my son.
[5:19]He walked when he was nine months old, which was a little young.
[5:23]That's early.
[5:23]Yeah.
[5:24]Right.
[5:25]So the good news was he walked when he was nine months old.
[5:27]The bad news was our child care provider had cared for him in her house and said,
[5:32]I will take care of your newborn until he starts to walk.
[5:35]And then you got to find somebody else.
[5:36]Uh oh.
[5:38]Oh my gosh.
[5:40]I gotta go find another girl.
[5:43]Well, the sway that the, particularly the younger moms talked about is how they basically bring
[5:50]sometimes quite literally bringing their children into work.
[5:53]Right.
[5:53]The girl, the daughter at the board, the law, legal office board meetings and the baby
[5:59]conference calls with babies.
[6:00]I mean, that is just the way it is, especially now with COVID with everybody at home.
[6:03]So now it's kind of where we're bringing our children to work 24 or seven.
[6:08]Yeah.
[6:08]And I think frankly, it's even more important with COVID-19 to try and forget about work-life
[6:15]bounds and to accept not only that we are imperfect, but that work is going to intrude on
[6:22]home life at home life is going to intrude on work life.
[6:25]They need to kind of go with the flow.
[6:27]That's kind of the principle behind work life's way.
[6:29]You know, it all gets taken care of in the end.
[6:33]And frankly, the children all grown up grow up to be perfectly capable adults.
[6:39]And if we have been good parents, we raise them right.
[6:43]And even if we haven't been good parents, they often turn out okay.
[6:47]So, you know, you got to take the longer view I think.
[6:51]I think you're absolutely right.
[6:52]And your book also, it's not even just about the demands of kids at home.
[6:57]It's like all these other things that impinge on your work life.
[7:00]Because when work becomes such a central part to who you are as a person,
[7:05]when you lose a parent, when you have a child who's ill, when you have really anything going on,
[7:11]it affects work.
[7:11]So it's almost like the book is more a guidebook to how to be a working person at all in the world.
[7:18]You know, I mean, like how to balance a giant career and anything because life happens.
[7:23]That's right.
[7:24]It's us.
[7:25]And there's a very, very important chapter called Power Over Pain that relates to just the issue
[7:30]you're talking about.
[7:31]You know, what happens when you yourself develop a life-threatening illness,
[7:35]or a loved one, whether it's a baby, or a grown child, or a spouse,
[7:40]or a parent, and God forbid, one of those treasured family members dies?
[7:45]How does that affect your view of yourself?
[7:47]How does that affect your view of the world?
[7:50]And frankly, the idea for that chapter came from my daughter,
[7:54]Ava, who in around age 29 was diagnosed with a genetic condition that she inherited from me
[8:02]and from my mother's side of the family.
[8:04]It is a joint condition in which you never know when your joints could go out of alignment.
[8:09]She described it to me recently very well.
[8:12]I thought she said, Mom, having this EDS is like having the radio on at all times in the background,
[8:19]and you never know when it's suddenly going to become loud and debilitate you.
[8:23]And so that's the other horrible thing about a chronic illness is you don't have any way
[8:28]control it.
[8:29]And in fact, she was joking with me the other day.
[8:31]She says, I can give lots of advice to people about being out of quarantine and how to isolate
[8:37]because often I can't function and have had to do that pre COVID-19.
[8:44]I'm actually going to interview soon another author who has a whole book on
[8:48]her experience with chronic illness.
[8:50]I should just send you the link to whatever the book is.
[8:52]Of course, now I'm blanking on the title, but it's about her experience with chronic
[8:57]illness and how it affects so many people in the United States.
[8:59]And it made me think of your daughter.
[9:01]And that chapter was so poignant, especially when you describe yourself crying.
[9:05]She's crying and it was just because what can you do?
[9:09]You were like, what can I do aside from cry?
[9:11]It was so sad.
[9:12]And yet your daughter is the one who was like, I have to choose life because what choice do I have?
[9:17]That's the only way to go.
[9:18]And like she in the book seems to be inspiring you.
[9:21]And then of course, all of us reading it.
[9:23]She has, she has been so inspiring to me.
[9:27]And yet, on a day-to-day basis, she has no control over her life.
[9:32]She has to essentially live in the moment.
[9:34]And frankly, that is good philosophy for all of us.
[9:37]We have to live for today because we don't know what to call a brain.
[9:42]And so that's part of my own philosophy of life, which is tell the people you love,
[9:47]that you love them today.
[9:49]You don't know what to call a brain.
[9:51]And also view the world as the glass has full.
[9:54]It's true.
[9:55]Those are good philosophies.
[9:56]And you have been through so much, even professionally yourself.
[10:00]of having been such a head honcho at the Wall Street Journal
[10:03]and career columnist.
[10:05]And you've seen so much.
[10:06]And you've grown up in such a time
[10:08]where all these things have been thrown at you.
[10:10]And all the ways that you talk about it.
[10:12]I mean, you're still standing.
[10:14]You're like the, I feel like in a carousel
[10:17]where all the like courses are going up and down
[10:19]and you're in the middle.
[10:20]And like every course is like a different thing.
[10:22]It's like you've been through so much.
[10:24]And yet you've come out on top.
[10:25]And now you're sharing all of your secrets with us.
[10:28]So when you look back on your, on your career
[10:31]as a journalist and a manager and a mother
[10:34]and like all the things you've accomplished
[10:36]of all the challenges, what was like the biggest one
[10:39]and how did you get through that?
[10:42]I think the biggest one was coming back to work
[10:44]after my first maternity leave.
[10:46]So the years 1979 when my son was born.
[10:50]And what happened was a half a dozen journalists
[10:54]at the Wall Street Journal all declared their pregnancies
[10:58]within the same two week period earlier that year.
[11:01]The managing had her throw up his hands in this gust.
[11:04]He was like, this is not in my job description.
[11:07]What am I supposed to do?
[11:10]And only two of us came back to work after maternity leave.
[11:14]And the other one who was a reporter in New York lasted,
[11:18]I don't know, a month or two and she quit.
[11:20]So, you know, it's just me.
[11:23]There's no role models.
[11:24]There are no books.
[11:25]There's no internet.
[11:27]There's nobody to talk to about this.
[11:30]And my first day back of work was just horrible, horrible.
[11:35]And I remember waiting for the bus
[11:37]with one of the journal colleagues, a guy, of course.
[11:40]And he said, so where do you park your baby all day?
[11:44]And it just really, really hurt.
[11:47]But frankly, it was even worse seven months later
[11:50]because a colleague of mine, the Washington Bureau,
[11:53]who had decided not to come back after her baby was born
[11:56]and he was born very soon after Dan.
[11:59]We were asked by the editorial page editors
[12:01]to write opposing op-ed essays on why in her case,
[12:05]she chose to stay home and why in my case,
[12:08]I chose to come back to work.
[12:10]And again, this is before you're working on a computer.
[12:14]You're still typing stories because it's 1980, all right?
[12:19]And the articles run back to back
[12:21]with a drawing of a scallowing infant
[12:24]looking at this typewriter, right?
[12:27]And what happened was the story appears
[12:31]and then a week or so later, my husband and I went away
[12:34]for a long weekend.
[12:35]First time since the baby was born, left him with my parents,
[12:38]I come back to work after this long weekend.
[12:41]Of course, I miss my baby terribly.
[12:43]Come back to work on Monday
[12:44]and I find there's an entire page of letters
[12:47]to the editor attacking me personally.
[12:51]And on my guess is another 30 letters
[12:53]that were two basically libelists to publish.
[12:57]They were mostly from women who chose to stay home
[13:00]and be a fatal mom who were accusing me of an unfit mother.
[13:04]One of them said, it's good thing that Daniel is not,
[13:07]you're not with Daniel all day
[13:08]because obviously you're not fit to be his mother.
[13:12]And I got, as you can imagine, a blinding headache
[13:15]and I left work at lunchtime, went home
[13:19]and I was walking home from the bus stop,
[13:22]which too early to pick him up at childcare plus,
[13:25]I really needed some time to myself.
[13:27]Stopped off at a friend's house
[13:28]who was a school teacher, she was already home from work.
[13:31]And I just lost it.
[13:32]I was like, you know, I can't do this.
[13:34]The whole world is against me.
[13:36]So how did you regroup?
[13:37]Like what did you have to say to yourself?
[13:39]Well, she asked me whether, you know,
[13:42]I really liked being a journalist and liked having a career
[13:45]and I said, yeah, I love it.
[13:46]That's what I've always wanted to do in my entire life.
[13:49]And I'm having a ball, you know,
[13:51]and she said, would you be happier at home with Dan?
[13:55]And I said, no, I think I would be miserable.
[13:57]And I think it would affect him.
[13:59]And so she said, eff him.
[14:02]That's it.
[14:03]I mean, that's just the perfect piece of advice
[14:05]for the whole thing, right?
[14:07]I mean, everybody has their own way
[14:10]of having to sort of navigate this whole thing of work
[14:13]and life.
[14:14]And I mean, I think back to the challenges
[14:17]not so long ago in your generation
[14:19]compared to how easy it is relative for people like me,
[14:22]like, you know, I can be on my phone writing something
[14:26]like in front of my, they don't even know what I'm doing.
[14:28]I could be like texting my best friend
[14:30]or I could be, you know, writing for a new,
[14:32]you know, it doesn't matter.
[14:33]They don't care, right?
[14:34]But you're there in person.
[14:36]So I don't know, it's just things change so quickly.
[14:39]And then I have to wonder in another, you know,
[14:41]30, 40 years the women working then,
[14:43]like what's that gonna look like
[14:44]when like my kids are working?
[14:46]Who knows, right?
[14:46]Maybe it's all, I mean, I don't know.
[14:48]I want to hear my forecast.
[14:50]I would love that.
[14:51]Well, it's gonna be better
[14:52]because, you know what?
[14:54]Both my generation and your generation
[14:57]know the importance of raising feminist children.
[15:00]We have to raise feminist sons as well as feminist daughters.
[15:04]And that's what I did with my son and my daughter.
[15:08]I think it was harder with my son, frankly.
[15:11]But I like the result.
[15:13]And at one point then, you know, not that long ago,
[15:16]he ends up becoming a boss.
[15:18]And the people in his office split down the middle.
[15:21]But people who have older kids are opposed
[15:24]and the people who have younger children
[15:26]have just had children first time
[15:28]while I bring the babies to the office
[15:29]to the point you make.
[15:31]And so he reached out to me and said,
[15:33]Mom, what do I do?
[15:34]I have the century and insurrection in my ranks here.
[15:37]You know, have the people who wanna bring their kids
[15:40]to work up until age one,
[15:42]and let them crawl around and do whatever.
[15:44]And I don't think very many people there,
[15:46]it's a government agency of private offices.
[15:48]So it's not like you could close them off.
[15:51]And the people whose kids are school age or older life
[15:54]or have not had children said no way.
[15:58]But he was thoughtful about it, okay?
[16:00]And he looked at both sides.
[16:01]And he could speak from his own position
[16:04]because he has three kids under nine years old, you know?
[16:08]I mean, I think if I were to add my own prediction
[16:11]into the hat of, you know, life in 40 years,
[16:14]I mean, I wonder if there will even be offices.
[16:16]I mean, it seems like there's almost no reason
[16:19]to even have an office.
[16:21]Like I'm thinking of your son,
[16:23]now that everybody's working from home
[16:24]and nothing bad is, I mean, nothing bad.
[16:27]It's horrific time.
[16:28]I just mean a lot of businesses can still function
[16:30]in this new format.
[16:31]So all the time spent on commuting is that worth it
[16:35]versus how much you could get done in those 30 an hour.
[16:38]You commuted for a long time.
[16:40]I mean, when you were in DC or something,
[16:42]or I don't know, I feel like the commute was really the hardest
[16:45]when I was working on the Manhattan office.
[16:47]Manhattan office, yeah.
[16:48]I mean, all that wasted time.
[16:50]Well, it was wasted in that wasted.
[16:52]I had a colleague who wrote three novels on that same commute
[16:55]that I was on when I was, you know,
[16:57]blissfully continuing to write my stories
[16:59]or teach out to sources or reach out to the kids
[17:03]and let them know that I was on the way.
[17:05]So, you know, there is something to be said
[17:07]for decompression time.
[17:09]But on the other hand, there's a recent survey
[17:10]that came out that showed about 47% of employers
[17:13]who are willing to let people continue to work from home
[17:17]full time, even after they've, you know,
[17:20]mostly let people come back to the office.
[17:23]So I think that's one of the very profound changes
[17:26]that has come about from coronavirus and COVID-19,
[17:30]which is guess what?
[17:32]You can work from home and be successful in your career.
[17:35]You know, you may go a little nuts
[17:37]in the price of it.
[17:38]But productivity doesn't have the summer.
[17:41]Yes.
[17:42]And I think that's been a major, major breakthrough
[17:46]from this whole horrific experience.
[17:48]Well, I think before people thought
[17:49]that working from home that you weren't actually working,
[17:52]right?
[17:53]No, everybody knows that like, yes, you're working
[17:54]and you're dealing with 8,000 other things.
[17:56]Actually, it's even more impressive, right?
[17:59]In my case, I asked for a reduced schedule.
[18:02]After I went back to work after April was born,
[18:05]it was turned down.
[18:06]And a year later, I then got it.
[18:08]And I worked up a 40 week for several years.
[18:11]And then when I went into management,
[18:13]I went back to working five days a week.
[18:15]But when we moved back to New York to U.S. from London,
[18:19]I was offered a chance to work from home on Fridays
[18:22]by the then managing editor.
[18:23]And initially, I was like, oh, I don't need this, right?
[18:26]Kids are slayed.
[18:28]And then I thought, you idiot.
[18:30]And we'll have this hour, hour and a half commute each way.
[18:33]And so I said, okay, I'll do that.
[18:35]And I did, I did for over 20 years.
[18:38]Wow.
[18:39]So at this point, you have a new book coming out.
[18:43]You clearly have not slowed down at all.
[18:45]What's coming after this?
[18:47]Like, where do you see the rest of your career?
[18:48]Do you want to do another book?
[18:50]Like, what gets you up in the morning?
[18:52]Well, after I wrote my first book,
[18:54]earning it hard one lesson from trailblazing women
[18:56]at the top of the business world, I said, okay.
[18:59]Can you check that box?
[19:01]I don't have to write any more books.
[19:04]So I never thought I was going to write one book much less too.
[19:07]I didn't think I had it in me to do any books
[19:09]because I was a journalist.
[19:11]At this point, I don't have any plans for a third book,
[19:14]but who knows?
[19:16]At the same time, the journal ended my career come
[19:19]after 27 years in May.
[19:22]And so I pivoted to work for another section
[19:25]of the paper as a contributor.
[19:27]And it's called Personal Board of Directors.
[19:30]And it's a feature that looks at fast, you know,
[19:34]high potential, high achieving executives
[19:37]who have advisors that have helped them figure out
[19:41]their philosophy of life of work
[19:43]and have also helped them advance their careers.
[19:46]And at the point when I started writing
[19:47]for that section this spring,
[19:49]they realized even though this little feature
[19:52]had been around for two years,
[19:53]they had done very few profiles of women
[19:55]and very few profiles of people of color of either gender.
[19:59]So that's my...
[20:00]Focus is doing personal board of directors,
[20:02]profiles both of women and women of color and men of color.
[20:07]And, you know, funny thing about that,
[20:09]I have to know a fair number of executive women.
[20:11]I can tell, you know, a lot of it, yeah.
[20:14]So, you know, one of my first personal board
[20:16]of directors features was about Stephanie Strach,
[20:18]who's one of the younger power moms.
[20:21]And, you know, it was great,
[20:22]because it ran just before she launched her startup.
[20:25]Start up, of course, turned out to take longer
[20:27]to get off the ground because of COVID.
[20:30]He was hoping it would launch in June,
[20:32]it launched in August.
[20:34]In fact, I just heard from her over night.
[20:36]She's doing okay.
[20:38]So, what advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[20:42]Or, you know, let me throw journalists in there
[20:44]because you're such a, you know, renowned journalist.
[20:46]So, I would have different advice
[20:48]for aspiring journalists.
[20:49]I would for aspiring book authors.
[20:52]I think for aspiring book authors,
[20:55]it's especially important as Virginia Oakland said
[20:58]to have a room of your own.
[21:00]You have to have space where you can think.
[21:04]You have to have space where you can have quiet.
[21:06]You have to have space where you can work.
[21:09]And, you know, for some people, it's the closet.
[21:12]You know, you just throw out all your clothes
[21:14]and, you know, put your little desk in there.
[21:17]It can be the laundry room.
[21:19]I've done zoos with people having their laptops
[21:21]on top of the dryer.
[21:23]But if there's a door, more power to you.
[21:25]But you really have to be able to think big
[21:29]and think hard and think differently,
[21:32]especially if you've spent your entire career
[21:35]as a journalist, that frankly was the hardest transition
[21:39]was to put it as my first book editor,
[21:42]put it, you have to think writerly
[21:45]and write writerly, which means you have to have longer
[21:48]than one sentence paragraph.
[21:50]In terms of advice to somebody who wants to be a journalist,
[21:54]I think you ought to be looking at some
[21:57]of these non-profit social media outlets
[22:00]that are like publica, that are really kind of doing
[22:05]really great social good, as well as, you know,
[22:10]achieving some great journalistic breakthroughs.
[22:13]I've been predicting 30 years that print journalism
[22:17]is the dodo.
[22:19]So for I've been proven wrong,
[22:20]but I think it's a matter of when, not yet.
[22:23]But, you know, the Wall Street Journal is a great example
[22:26]of this.
[22:27]There are many, many more subscribers now
[22:28]to the online journal than the print journal,
[22:31]but they can't fold up the print journal 10
[22:33]because there's still a very large core of loyal readers
[22:37]who only read the print journal.
[22:39]I only read the print journal, I have to say.
[22:41]I love print.
[22:43]It's a very big piece of journalism.
[22:46]I mean, the purple board of directors features
[22:48]is a great example.
[22:49]Like pieces there run about 1, 1200 words online
[22:53]and it prints it's 500 words.
[22:55]It's like the frosting without the cake.
[22:59]Oh, I just, well, I don't know.
[23:01]I tried to read three newspapers a day
[23:04]and I don't know.
[23:06]I feel like I can do it a lot faster when I flip.
[23:09]Yeah, it is, it is, it is, but now I feel guilty.
[23:12]So from now on, I'll try to skim both.
[23:15]I don't know.
[23:17]My line on a personal board of directors, you know,
[23:20]you can do it.
[23:21]I'm gonna set a Google alert now for you.
[23:23]So now I can follow all your stories.
[23:25]How about that?
[23:27]Awesome.
[23:28]That is awesome.
[23:28]All right.
[23:29]But I hope, you know, my new book will be of help
[23:32]to women, not just ones who already have kids,
[23:35]but women who are thinking, you know,
[23:37]further down the line,
[23:38]I wanna at some point get directly involved
[23:41]with a life or new or a spouse.
[23:44]And I wanna have kids
[23:46]and I wanna have a successful career, you know,
[23:48]how do I make that work?
[23:50]And that's really the goal of the book.
[23:52]Well, you communicated that and there was fantastic advice
[23:56]and inspiration and it was really great.
[23:58]It's super helpful and came at least for me
[24:01]at like a perfect time.
[24:02]So this was great.
[24:03]So thank you so much.
[24:04]And it was so nice to get to chat with you today.
[24:07]You're welcome.
[24:08]All right.
[24:09]I'll be reading your essays now whenever they come out.
[24:12]All your thesis.
[24:13]All right.
[24:13]Well, thanks Joanne and have a great day.
[24:15]All right.
[24:17]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[24:19]Don't have time to read books.
[24:21]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[24:23]at Zebioans and at Moms.
[24:24]Don't have time to read books.
[24:26]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com
[24:28]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:30]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:32]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[24:34]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[24:36]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:38]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.