Arianna Huffington & Marina Khidekel, YOUR TIME TO THRIVE
[0:01]Hi, this is Vivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[1:51]I am so excited to be interviewing Ariana Huffington and Marina Cadecal for your time to thrive
[1:59]and burnout increased well-being and unlike your full potential with the new science of microsteps.
[2:05]Ariana Huffington is the founder and CEO of Thrive Global, a leading behavior-change tech company
[2:11]helping individuals, corporations, and communities improve their well-being and performance.
[2:16]She is also the founder of the Huffington Post and the author of 15 books.
[2:21]Marina Cadecal is Thrive Global's Head of Content Development, bringing Thrive's corporate
[2:26]and consumer audiences compelling multimedia storytelling and actionable science-backed advice
[2:32]to help lower stress and improve well-being. She has been a top editor for National Media Outlet,
[2:37]including Women's Health, Glamour, and Cosmopolitan. Hello. Hi, zivi. Hey, zivi. How are you? Good.
[2:43]I just so love, love, love. What you are doing. Thank you. Nothing is more fun than
[2:52]honestly what you are doing. I feel as having written 15 books, I think it's the most wonderful
[2:58]thing to have all the support you are giving authors. Oh, I love it. It's like a joy for me.
[3:06]You know, even when I get stressed out, it's like, how can you be stressed out about having
[3:10]to read all these amazing books? It's like getting worried about eating too much ice cream or
[3:14]something. It's a good pleasure. It's a total pleasure. I was reading this book during such a
[3:20]stressful time where I was like, oh, I've got to prep all these books for the week and I'm reading
[3:24]this book being like, okay, this book is telling me to have to calm down and take small steps
[3:30]and get some sleep and all these great tips. I was like, all right, well, this book is hitting me
[3:36]just the right time. So thank you for that. Sometimes it's the step at all taking any steps.
[3:47]You know, it's kind of like weight loss. It's like you can't lose weight until you stop gaining
[3:51]weight, right? That's like the first step. It's like one thing at a time. Well, I love to
[3:58]how both of you wrote these great introductions slash forwards and really started off the book
[4:04]sharing from your hearts about what was going on and that there's like no better way to
[4:08]get into any type of book than I think than hearing the experience of the editors of the whole
[4:14]thing. So I was hoping you two could talk about how your personal vested interest in the
[4:19]micro steps and getting all of these amazing concepts out there and helping other people have
[4:25]their time to thrive. Yeah, I mean, I can start. So we actually started writing this book
[4:31]before the pandemic. So we were already in this epidemic of stress and burnout. Things were already
[4:36]bad and we needed to change the way that we worked and lived, but then the pandemic hit and myself
[4:42]and the other editors working on this book are, you know, we went into quarantine. Our lives
[4:46]like everyone else's were turned upside down and it became even more of a mission like during
[4:52]the pandemic year, not very many people were thriving. And the I like we had we had this mission
[4:59]statement. There's nothing wrong with aiming big, but you can help yourself by starting small.
[5:03]So micro steps became more core to what we were doing than ever because the idea of a big life
[5:10]overhaul during this overwhelming pandemic was pretty laughable. Like no one, no one had the energy
[5:16]or wherewithal for that. So we leaned even harder into the science of micro steps. These are
[5:22]tiny science back to actions you can start doing immediately to start seeing, you know, benefits to
[5:28]your well-being and form, form healthier habits. So, you know, it was hard to thrive during this year,
[5:34]but the small steps really helped us personally. And your step was not picking up your phone for
[5:40]the first minute or so after your last week. That is my favorite micro step. So I noticed, you know,
[5:46]in the pandemic, I was doing the thing where I would roll over in the bed in the morning and
[5:50]grab my phone and look at it even before like my eyes were fully open. I think a lot of us
[5:54]sort of do that. And I was experiencing this palpable anxiety spike that would take hours to go
[6:00]away. Like my heart, I was like, what is happening? I knew I didn't like what I was feeling.
[6:04]So I just challenged myself to do the micro step of taking one minute to not look at my phone
[6:09]after I woke up, either drink a glass of water or take a few breaths or even set an intention
[6:14]for the day. And it really solidified why it was so bad that I was doing that before. And it's like,
[6:19]when you start your day on your phone, you are focusing on what other people want from you,
[6:24]like your emails. What other people are inspired by their social media, if you scroll. And,
[6:30]you know, stressful headlines of the day, rather than focusing on what you want from the day.
[6:35]So when I stopped doing it and just took that minute, I flipped how I went into my days. Like,
[6:40]I put myself in my intentions first and that made a huge difference. And even like how I interacted
[6:44]with people and the energy I brought, you know, to my work and to my friends and family. And
[6:50]again, I'm not always, you know, I fall off the wagon. We're all works in progress. I don't do it
[6:55]every single day, but I really try to do it every day because I noticed a huge difference.
[6:59]All right, I'm going to try it. Yeah, if I'm going to be away, Marina's favorite micro step is how
[7:05]she starts her day. My favorite micro step is how I end my day because the truth is that nobody
[7:14]really has a natural end to their working day. We have to kind of declare it. And I like to declare
[7:21]the end to my working day, which is not the same every day, but whenever it is by turning off my phone
[7:28]and charging it outside my bedroom, because that's basically the time for me to begin transitioning
[7:37]to sleep. And we have all the data that shows that 72% of people sleep with their phones on their
[7:46]nightstands. It's not cuddled up with them. And really they're on their phone texting handling things
[7:54]until they can't keep their eyes open anymore. And then they turn off the light and go to sleep,
[8:02]they haven't had this transition that helps them slow down their brain, even though they're physically
[8:10]exhausted. So their brain wakes them up in the middle of the night and then they can't go back to
[8:15]sleep. And that's the most unproductive time. And then, you know, of course, you're frustrated because
[8:21]you can't sleep. So you go to your phone, which is right there in front of you, which makes it
[8:26]harder to sleep. So it's a vicious cycle. And really, what we love about our microsteps is that
[8:33]they're all based on science. And on ancient wisdom, you have four children. So you know that
[8:41]when you're children are little, you don't just drop them in bed. You have a whole transition.
[8:48]You give them a bath. You sing them a lullaby. You read them good night moon. Well, we need
[8:55]a little transition too. So another micro step is start with a five minute transition.
[9:03]My transition now gradually has gotten from five minutes to 30 minutes. And it includes having a
[9:10]hot shower or a hot bath to wash away the day, having dedicated PJs, you know, normally I would wear
[9:18]the same t-shirts that I want to work out not literally that day, but you know, not having
[9:25]separate sleep work, which sends another message to your brain. And I always love to read physical
[9:31]books in bed. Nothing on Kindle or screens. There is something wonderful in tactile about holding a
[9:39]book and often even like getting so drowsy that you drop the book to the floor. And it doesn't break.
[9:47]It's like you have a camera on me and my bed late at night.
[9:54]Your books. Yes. And occasionally I only get a book, you know, via email or something.
[10:00]Even last night, I had my laptop on my lap and bed
[10:03]and I was trying to read, I was like,
[10:04]this is terrible, I am just not doing this.
[10:06]And so I closed it and like picked up a different book.
[10:08]And I was like, I'm just gonna do this one again.
[10:10]Yeah, no, I'm so glad you say that.
[10:13]And I love that you have books behind you.
[10:15]It's the best house decoration too.
[10:19]Oh, thank you, yes.
[10:20]My new color-coded books here.
[10:22]Yeah, and I love your whole concept
[10:25]of the minimum viable effort.
[10:27]Because I feel like so often
[10:29]we're all trying so hard to do everything perfectly
[10:33]and the idea of flipping that on its head
[10:35]and being like, actually, do the worst, do the worst.
[10:37]Not the worst, but just the least you can do to get it done.
[10:41]And sometimes that's okay.
[10:42]And that leaves, that's just such a huge weight off my shoulders,
[10:45]right?
[10:46]Tell me about that mind shift.
[10:48]And it's also like not depending entirely on self-control
[10:53]and discipline.
[10:54]You know, we all think, oh, that's okay.
[10:56]I'll put the phone on my nightstand,
[10:58]but I won't look at it.
[11:00]No, you will look at it.
[11:03]Oh, you know, I want to lose weight,
[11:06]but I'm which, okay, my fridge is full of ice cream
[11:11]and bad carbs and sweets, but I'm not going to touch them.
[11:15]No, you are going to touch them.
[11:18]So I think we are saying in the book
[11:21]that organize your environment to make it easy
[11:26]for you to take these micro steps and make better choices.
[11:31]Make it easy for yourself.
[11:33]If you don't want to eat Doritos, don't buy Doritos.
[11:38]And if you don't want to go to your phone in the middle
[11:42]of the night, charge it in another room.
[11:45]So minimizing the amount of willpower we have to use
[11:49]because willpower is very easily exhausted.
[11:53]That's true.
[11:54]It sounds so simple when you say it like that,
[11:56]but yet the hard part is not,
[11:58]maybe the hard part is not buying the,
[12:00]I don't like Doritos, but buying the chocolate tube cookies
[12:03]to begin with, because that's, you know,
[12:05]now we've got to go backwards in time here
[12:08]and figure out how to stop the purchasing.
[12:10]I'll give them away.
[12:14]I'll give them away.
[12:15]I loved also the notion of how if we had a doorbell
[12:19]that rang like every two minutes,
[12:21]you would just disconnect the doorbell,
[12:22]you'd be so annoyed by it.
[12:24]And yet we let our phones like ding their way
[12:26]into our lives all the time.
[12:28]And we are all okay with that.
[12:30]So I just love that idea of like disconnect the doorbell.
[12:33]It's like such a great sort of mantra
[12:35]for trying to disconnect in general.
[12:38]Yeah, exactly.
[12:38]It's part of setting your environment up to serve you
[12:41]rather than making yourself a slave to that doorbell
[12:44]or that phone.
[12:45]Yes, which so many of us are.
[12:47]And I loved also as a, you know,
[12:50]professional-ish podcaster
[12:52]that one of the chapters was all about listening
[12:54]because I feel like that's such a big,
[12:56]huge, important, rejuvenating part
[12:59]of like what I do every day is listening to other people
[13:02]and I get so much out of it.
[13:03]And to have a whole chapter sort of dedicated
[13:05]to the benefits of connecting and hearing
[13:07]and really active listening was great.
[13:10]And I think it's not talked about enough.
[13:11]Yeah, absolutely.
[13:12]I mean, as human beings, we are wired to connect, right?
[13:15]We and this pandemic has made that a lot trickier
[13:19]for a lot of us, we're not seeing people
[13:21]the way we used to, we're not traveling.
[13:24]It's so important to strengthen the connections
[13:28]that we have in our lives in all the ways that we can.
[13:31]One way is that idea of active listening
[13:34]that you mentioned is it'd be.
[13:35]It's like we are engaged members of the conversation.
[13:39]You know, one micro step is, you know,
[13:41]once a day have a conversation where you mostly listen
[13:44]and don't speak.
[13:45]And to your point, it's really become hard for people
[13:48]because their phones are always around.
[13:50]And there's actually research showing that when your phone,
[13:54]even if it's flipped over and not lit up,
[13:57]if you see it with an eyesight, you're a worse listener
[14:00]and you're a worse connector.
[14:02]And the other people, you know, see that you're distracted.
[14:05]So it's so true that, you know,
[14:07]fostering those connections with each other
[14:10]and also, you know, listening to ourselves
[14:12]and having that conversation and dialogue with ourselves
[14:15]is super important.
[14:17]I love that that you really resonated with that.
[14:19]Totally.
[14:20]I feel like personally offended
[14:22]when I'm trying to talk to someone and they have their phone.
[14:24]Even if they're like, no, but I'm just doing whatever.
[14:26]Meanwhile, I say that all the time.
[14:28]But when somebody does it to me,
[14:29]I'm just like, you know, you must not really care
[14:32]about what I'm saying.
[14:34]Our phones have become so addictive
[14:38]that even the people who love the most, our children,
[14:41]our partners have to compete for our attention.
[14:44]That's really what's happening.
[14:46]And we always feel the phone is so much more interesting.
[14:51]It's colorful.
[14:53]It covers everything I care about from politics,
[14:57]to entertainment, to music, to podcasting.
[15:02]So it's so important to, again, make it harder
[15:06]to lose yourself in rabbit holes.
[15:08]Like if you're addicted to Instagram,
[15:11]as my daughters have done, they've just removed it
[15:14]from their phone.
[15:15]So if they ever want to go on Instagram,
[15:17]they have to download the app or love it again,
[15:22]which is obviously something they're not going to do randomly.
[15:27]And whatever our addiction is,
[15:32]let's make sure we make it harder to engage.
[15:34]And anybody who has dealt with alcohol or drugs
[15:38]know that if you're trying to kick off the offer drinking habit,
[15:44]you are not going to put a bottle of wine on your nightstand.
[15:48]And the same applies to the phone or the food
[15:52]or anything that tempts us.
[15:54]And another thing, Zibi, that we talk a lot about
[15:57]in the book is habits talking.
[16:01]How can we use existing habits?
[16:03]Things that we do automatically like brushing our teeth,
[16:06]washing our hands, to stack a healthy habit on top of it.
[16:11]That doesn't take any more time.
[16:13]Like remembering three things we're grateful for.
[16:16]That's my absolute favorite healthy habit.
[16:20]And it has a huge impact on reducing stress and anxiety
[16:25]because literally anxiety and gratitude cannot coexist.
[16:30]And it takes no extra time.
[16:32]And it's just a matter again of building
[16:34]that habit's stacking habit.
[16:37]I do that.
[16:38]I have loved that micro step and I do it in the morning
[16:41]and at night while brushing my teeth.
[16:43]And I've like started challenging myself
[16:46]to think of three new things each time
[16:48]because you always start with like my health
[16:50]and my family.
[16:51]Like the main things that you're gonna say
[16:55]over and over and you feel guilty if you don't say them.
[16:57]But it's more fun.
[16:58]Like I know I'm grateful for my health, my family.
[17:01]But what else?
[17:01]I saw a really cute puppy today
[17:04]or like my niece got into the college of her choice.
[17:06]Like I challenged myself to think of new ones.
[17:10]And it snaps me out of whatever funk I'm in instantly.
[17:14]I love that.
[17:15]With my kids at dinner every night,
[17:16]we always go around and say like,
[17:17]what was our best today?
[17:18]What was our worst today?
[17:20]What was the time we left the hardest?
[17:21]And what was our most challenging?
[17:23]So I feel like that's our way of like stopping
[17:25]and even thinking about the day, right?
[17:27]And what were our grateful for?
[17:29]And then like once a week we do like,
[17:30]what are we grateful for this week?
[17:32]But I don't know if I could do it every time
[17:34]I brush my teeth.
[17:35]But it's a goal.
[17:36]It's a goal.
[17:37]You've got very little things like my line in my water.
[17:43]You know, it doesn't have to be as Marina said,
[17:46]just the big existential things were grateful for.
[17:51]That's true.
[17:52]And you had so many people quoted in here.
[17:54]Like Charles Dewhig, who was one of my first guests,
[17:56]we went to school together.
[17:57]And you know, I recently interviewed Jen Sincheiro
[18:00]about her habits.
[18:01]And so I've actually spent quite a bit of time
[18:03]like analyzing habits and all of mine
[18:05]and what I can change and what I can
[18:07]and what I could add.
[18:08]So I liked having that in here as well.
[18:10]It all adds up.
[18:11]I'm listening in some way.
[18:14]I was just gonna say that at thrive,
[18:16]we always joke, but it's true
[18:18]that we drink our own champagne.
[18:19]So in each chapter you'll see a micro step diary
[18:22]by somebody who works at thrive
[18:24]who was challenged to try and micro step themselves.
[18:27]And some had more challenges than others.
[18:29]But I always find it so interesting as you were saying.
[18:32]Like what's Charles Dewhig actually you're doing
[18:34]to see voyeuristically how other people
[18:38]and act micro steps in their own lives.
[18:39]And we have plenty of that in the book.
[18:41]Now you have so much Tom Brady and Hoda
[18:43]and like every, you know, all these people,
[18:45]it's like every page.
[18:46]I was like, how did they get all these amazing?
[18:48]So this must have taken a lot of work and time
[18:50]and effort to compile all the different quotes
[18:53]and people and tips and experts.
[18:55]I mean, this is a lot of work that goes into this book.
[18:57]But we feel it's really important
[19:00]to bring storytelling into the book.
[19:04]The micro steps are science based.
[19:07]You have all the quotes from the scientists
[19:09]like that you mentioned.
[19:11]But we also need people from all walks of life.
[19:15]Because you may identify with Hoda,
[19:18]my daughter may identify with Selena Gomez,
[19:21]a businessman may identify with Jeff Bezos
[19:24]getting eight hours of sleep.
[19:25]We wanted to cover the waterfront
[19:28]because we found that storytelling
[19:31]is such a huge inspiration and motivator.
[19:35]Very true.
[19:36]Yeah, there's nothing quite like it.
[19:38]Best way.
[19:39]So tell me what's going on with Thrive Global?
[19:42]How are you guys doing throughout this pandemic?
[19:44]How do you individually thrive
[19:46]and like what's going on with the whole business?
[19:49]Kind of a big question.
[19:50]But it's been an amazing year for Thrive
[19:53]because everything we found at the company to do
[19:57]and the stress and burnout epidemic.
[20:00]He recognized the connection between well-being and productivity, prioritized mental health
[20:06]and resilience, all these issues for many of the companies that we are working with were
[20:12]no longer just nice to have, they became imperative and essential.
[20:17]So we've grown really fast and one of the things we're very excited about is that we're
[20:23]not just working with people who like us have the privilege to be able to work from
[20:28]home during the pandemic but with frontline workers. We work for example with a 2.2 million
[20:36]associates at Walmart, most of whom work from the stores and they have to show up at work
[20:42]and that of course can be incredibly stressful during a pandemic but with these microsteps
[20:50]or as we call them also one better choice around food, sleep, breathing, movement,
[20:58]family, finances. We've had amazing success, in fact we we track it on our Instagram and Facebook
[21:07]accounts that we call Thrive Zip, ZP and you're going to be so moved by the stories of people
[21:16]who even during the pandemic have made so many better choices that they reversed diabetes,
[21:22]got closer to their families etc etc. That's amazing and so what's what's next? Do you have a whole
[21:31]you must have like a whole list of books that you want to write or is is this it for now?
[21:35]No we've got a couple we've got two more books coming and we are you know talking about down the
[21:41]line to doing children's books because you know who needs tiny steps more and who could use them
[21:47]more than kids? I'll talk about microsteps. Micro-micro-micro. You love the idea of getting on
[21:54]this journey with your children even your young children one of the concepts in the book is what
[22:00]we call having an accountability body you know somebody who has your back and helps you on the journey
[22:09]and you help them so I love the idea of you know a mom and her child the picking let's say an
[22:16]affirmation something that they say every day that connects them to their strength and resilience
[22:25]and and the child picking up an affirmation and reminding each other to do their affirmation
[22:32]so reminding each other to repeat what they are grateful for I think it it brings people
[22:41]it brings families together and we see also when it comes to our relationship with our phones
[22:48]how important it is to teach phone hygiene to our children early so a lot of the micro steps we have
[22:54]in the book you can start using with your children around not sleeping with your phone
[23:01]not taking your phone to to the dinner table all these little things the sooner you start your
[23:09]children with and the faster will they will become part of their lives and it gives you all
[23:16]something to celebrate like yes I did my micro step today one tiny win that you can celebrate every
[23:22]single day you know with each other it's did and you strengthen that muscle and then you continue
[23:27]to do it and do more and more and form better habits but I love that idea too of like holding
[23:32]each other accountable like who's better than kids at holding you accountable for something totally
[23:36]I feel like Apple must not like you guys very much you're like the anti the anti phones over here
[23:43]nope I'm kidding no we're not we're not anti technology at all we believe in tech for good and
[23:52]being intentional about how we use our tech but you know tech can foster a lot of great things
[23:57]and it can foster connection and it can also you know make us addicted and stressed out yes some of
[24:05]some things that are great can very easily become addictions but at their core they they used to be
[24:11]good things you know so what advice would both of you have for aspiring authors oh the most important
[24:20]thing for aspiring authors is to start you know not to feel that you have to have it all figured out
[24:28]in your mind but to start somewhere and to make sure that you don't expect the first draft to be
[24:38]the final draft that kind of frees you up I find that was something I had to learn the hard way
[24:46]because I'm such a perfectionist that I could literally organize for hours over a sentence
[24:53]and then I started tricking myself and putting question marks on the margin meaning maybe I'll
[24:59]change that word but I'll keep going and then when you go back you either realize okay that was
[25:08]the right work or you know exactly how to replace it you have to allow the flow to happen and even
[25:15]if you start with maybe if this is not your primary job you start with 10 minutes while you're
[25:22]having a morning coffee and you put something on paper and there's nothing easier than writing
[25:30]once you have already written something and so it's not the confrontation with a blank page
[25:39]absolutely and and I can say for for me when I it's so funny it like came into focus when
[25:46]when I was working on the focus chapter and I was multitasking like like crazy and multitasking
[25:53]is terrible for us when we get into this in the book and irony of irony is here I was like texting
[25:59]and answering emails while working on this chapter about focus so for me what really helped
[26:06]was just blocking off like 20 minutes at a time to to work and then you know stopping and taking a
[26:13]but being intentional about that time I love it I feel like some of the mission of what I'm trying to do
[26:20]is so aligned with what you guys are trying to do and yours is much more specific and professional
[26:26]but I'm trying so hard to help moms and just busy people in general not forget all of the
[26:32]important things in life right like we only get to do this once and we should try to do it the
[26:38]best way we can and here are some of the the things and let's not take ourselves too seriously
[26:43]in the meantime so I don't know I just love your whole message and it's so important and
[26:48]the book in particular ending burnout increasing while being unlocking your potential
[26:54]these are this is great I mean who doesn't need this this is perfect so thank you so much
[26:58]for coming on momstone how time to read books to discuss it and maybe there's some way we can
[27:04]do more stuff in the future that'd be fun we would love that and thank you so much ZB for
[27:09]what you are doing we absolutely love it thank you thank you and we look forward to much more
[27:16]together thank you all right goodbye thank you bye thanks so much to audible.com for sponsoring
[27:26]this podcast I hope all of you will go to audible.com slash ZB for text ZB to 500-500
[27:34]and download some audiobooks and check out their new popular plus catalog for so many amazing
[27:40]things and get your free trial for 30 days thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have
[27:45]time to read books don't forget to follow me on instagram at zbohans and at moms don't have time
[27:51]to read books also sign up for my newsletter at zbohans.com and sign up for my virtual book
[27:56]club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at
[28:00]texture sound for the sound editing and thank you to morning moon productions for providing
[28:05]this fantastic intro and outro music