James Brown, APOLOGY TO THE YOUNG ADDICT

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[0:35]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.

[0:38]James Brown is the author of Apology to a Young Addict, a memoir.

[0:42]James is the author of the critically acclaimed memoirs Apology to the Young Addict, as I said,

[0:46]the Los Angeles Diaries and this river.

[0:48]He is the recipient of a National Endowment for the Arts Literature Fellowship,

[0:52]and the Nelson Algren Literary Award in Short Fiction.

[0:55]Brown's work has appeared in GQ, The New York Times Magazine,

[0:58]Los Angeles Times Magazine, Plow Shares, New England Review, and many other publications.

[1:02]He and author Patrick O'Neill are currently collaborating on writing your way to recovery.

[1:07]How stories can save our lives, a book using creative writing techniques,

[1:10]to help other alcoholics, and addicts achieve and maintain sobriety.

[1:15]Welcome, Jim. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to read books

[1:19]to discuss Apology to the Young Addict, your memoir, which was so, so good.

[1:24]I'm just so excited to be talking to you about it.

[1:26]Well, thank you. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.

[1:29]I know this is not your first book, and now I have to go back and read all the other ones,

[1:34]which I haven't read yet, but tell me a little bit about what made you write this book right now,

[1:40]and how is this book different from the other books, which I haven't read?

[1:43]Like, what is this book? What did this book do for you?

[1:46]Well, good question. I'll try to keep my answers short, but the Los Angeles Diaries

[1:52]was my first book, and it's this memoir on the trilogy, and it dealt a lot with my family,

[1:57]and my brother and sister for both sadly community.

[2:00]But it's to the side. All of us had drinking and drug problems.

[2:04]My mother was a career criminal.

[2:06]I did a piece of time for arson and homicide.

[2:10]And then my second, I could go into great detail about that book,

[2:13]but it really wasn't about my struggles with alcohol and drugs.

[2:18]My second book dealt not so much with my brother and sister, and that part of my family,

[2:23]but my immediate view of my three sons and my ex-wife now sat it cast away while back.

[2:30]And then this one here is the result of getting close to 14 years sobriety.

[2:36]Got willing in, and that I maintain until next August, I'll have 14 years.

[2:42]And it had a lot to do with what it's like to be sober, what it's like to help others with their sobriety.

[2:50]It's sponsorship, and it also has to do with my family.

[2:53]It has to do with having survived, and having dug myself out of that hole.

[2:58]What my life was become.

[3:00]Good job.

[3:02]Oh, thank you. Thanks.

[3:05]So this book, what I liked about this book is how you jumped both from points of view to who you were addressing.

[3:12]Some of the sections were written in, I guess, the second person or wouldn't you say, you feel like this.

[3:18]You feel like that.

[3:19]And you take us through all the physical moments and experiences of going through detox.

[3:25]Like, immediately that night, the next night, months down the road, years down the road.

[3:30]So you have some of that.

[3:31]And then you have these vignettes almost like your next door neighbors who become opioid addicts and you have to watch their self destruction and get sort of pulled into that.

[3:42]And then you have moments that were like edge of your seat reading when you were in Las Vegas for the horrific shooting mass killing that went on there.

[3:53]And then like, tender moments with your family. So you end like skipping rocks on the water with somebody's dad over doses or it was just like this wonderful like 360 view of all the sides of how addiction can sort of permeate someone's life.

[4:10]And you're a really good writer too. I'm sure you know this because this is your book, but I just really appreciated your actual writing.

[4:19]I was going to try to read a passage or something that I loved, but you were talking about how some, let me just read this passage if you don't mind.

[4:27]This is when you're talking to audiences, you say, I open it up to questions, hands rise.

[4:32]This is the part they usually like best.

[4:34]And in the process of answering, I end up telling them how I used to love alcohol.

[4:37]The smell, the taste, how it made me feel, how had I been able to stop after three or four even tendrils, I'd still be at it.

[4:44]And at one point, though, it quit being about how it made me feel and started being about how I felt when I didn't drink or use.

[4:50]I thought that was such an interesting distinction. So just tell me a little bit about that and how you even got into speaking to take groups about your experience.

[4:59]Fortunately, the Los Angeles Diaries did well. And that book was picked up by many colleges, universities, even some high schools across the country.

[5:09]And so I was fortunate enough to be asked to come out and speak at Red Ribbon Week and also unfortunately asked us to come out and read my work and talk about addiction as well as writing.

[5:20]And that was, you know, that was one of those events where I actually had a good fortune to go speak and share the message about some being sobriety.

[5:28]Once you become addicted, whether it's to alcohol or other substances, a lot of it isn't about the pleasure that you initially got when we started drinking and using, but once you become addicted, I said before.

[5:42]Now, at that point there, it's about maintaining, it's not about avoiding seeking depression when you don't have that substance in your system.

[5:52]So that's a whole different thing. It's no longer about pleasure now. It's about maintenance.

[5:57]As I read your book, I was like, wow, this guy is sort of lucky to still be alive after all you've gone through, right?

[6:04]Just all the ways you've cheated death. And then I got to the passage when you almost drove your car off the cliff when it was so foggy and you were driving drunk and you felt like you heard a voice saying like that you were going to be okay.

[6:16]And for the first time after being a lifelong atheist, you finally were like, well, maybe there's somebody watching over me.

[6:22]So how do you feel about that now? Like where do you fall on that sort of belief spectrum?

[6:28]My belief spectrum is open-minded. And so what works for me may not work for another person struggling with addiction.

[6:36]Every child is a big part of many of recovery programs, including AA. And for me, I always felt that it was quitting drinking and using, it was a matter of willpower.

[6:49]And unfortunately, I never had enough willpower to do that. And I had a sponsor kept saying, well, Brown, you know, you know, being able to do this by yourself.

[7:00]So I said, well, what do you mean? Basically, it says you need to embrace power greater than yourself. So if you have someone to talk with, then you have someone to ask for restraint.

[7:12]That was the beginning. I had to crack that door open a little bit because of my past with agnosticism and atheism.

[7:20]We get accepted. There was something out there that could be helpful to me that I couldn't see the other touch. It was hard to accept.

[7:27]And however, once I started doing what he asked me to do, which was just to open my mind a little bit to the notion that there might be something out there bigger than myself.

[7:37]And that's something might be able to help me when I open that door just to a little bit of a faith to believe in the possibility eventually when I began to see what results.

[7:49]I began to believe that there just might be something bigger than me out there. And I do believe now that there is something bigger than me out there.

[7:58]Tell me also about parenting through addiction. So you referenced several times in the book.

[8:05]You did things when you were a dad when your boys were younger that you weren't proud of and that they have since forgiven you for because you've proven now 14 years sober, less so when you wrote the book, but that you can maintain it and you've sort of done.

[8:19]They've forgiven you and you've moved on, but you said that, you know, growing up there were things you really regret as you did in your parenting. And then of course you, you spotlight others sort of parent child relationships and the fact of them with when addiction is a part of the family essentially.

[8:35]So I was wondering how your kids, how you feel about the impact of kids when there's addiction like this in the family. And then also for your own kids, you know, how is it for them like with all these books and with your story so public, how do they feel about it?

[8:53]There's a few questions there. Yeah, sorry. That's okay. It's just, you know, like my memories, I think it's sharpest memory, but I won't even remember I asked them so.

[9:04]Okay, children are probably the greatest casualties of addiction, even if they're not the addict. They live with an addict or alcoholic.

[9:14]The behavior of mom and dad is not what it should be. The alcoholic addict is usually irresponsible and children need for the parents to be responsible and they children need you there when they need you.

[9:27]And if you're not there when they need you, you're falling short in your duties to your children.

[9:34]And I wasn't always there for them because my first, you know, my first call was to reach that drink and I tried to be a good father, but the compulsion to drink and use took me away from those responsibilities.

[9:49]And that's what I, you know, the title piece, all of you too, you know, I got something to do with that. The people we harm, you're not just harming ourselves, harming all of those.

[10:00]plus. And we can't necessarily see it at the time. And again, I can't use words

[10:05]sadly, but it is sad. It's not even personal to the children or to the spouse. It's

[10:11]that the drugs and alcohol must come first. And you and I both know that when your priorities

[10:17]are towards drugs and alcohol first, I put your children second or third and they're

[10:23]quite second or third. And that simply is not right to do. It's not a good way of decent

[10:30]way of the right way to live a life. I have responsibilities and I have to live up to those

[10:35]responsibilities. Because in the end, what all is said and done and it comes time for me

[10:41]to depart, I want my children to remember me and say, hey, you know, dad had some problems,

[10:48]that he changed and he became a good father. And I prefer to remember good things

[10:53]about my father. And I would say the darker things in the end, I want to go out of peace

[10:59]man, even people with good memories of me. Well, I don't even know you and I have good

[11:04]memories of you. So that's good. Well, thank you. But your son, is it your son Logan who's

[11:09]in law enforcement? Yes. Okay. So when you wrote about him, you wrote about your concern

[11:15]that perhaps he was getting too aggressive at times, even if he hadn't had that much

[11:19]to drink. And you kind of sniffed out some signs that you were worried about and that

[11:23]you saw as reflections of what you had been through. And you wrote about that very openly

[11:28]and I'm thinking to myself, well, like, where is Logan now? And how does he feel about

[11:32]what you have that and was this the beginning of something or how does he feel? So not that

[11:38]you know necessarily, but from what you've gathered, how do your children feel about your

[11:43]your dad's life sort of being so on display in this way and by consequence or their

[11:49]own? You know, there's all Logan. Logan is my middle boy. And then I've got a younger

[11:56]one, they Nate. And that I have the older one, Andy. And my son Andy is a reader. And

[12:02]he read all, he's read all of my books. And Andy has a MFA in art music or rhyme

[12:09]at school, got my MFA, but his is his studio art magazine, great writing. And Andy is actually

[12:16]the one that's read me back-to-back and knows of material. Well, the other boys believe

[12:22]they're not. One is a computer's things in cybersecurity. And he was raised on this darn

[12:29]thing that we do in our community. And he hardly reads. His fiance has read my books and

[12:36]she read a couple of my books and she really likes them. And it says nice things about

[12:41]the writing as you mentioned earlier. But other boys, Logan prefers not to, you know,

[12:47]it's odd because I could have been a better father. I should have been a better father.

[12:52]But Logan for some reason, when I had to make my nins, I had to make my mins with children.

[12:56]And I had to tell him, you know, I could have been a better father to you, the things

[12:59]I did. I'm sure you remember that, you know, we're wrong. And my little boy, Logan,

[13:06]he said, Dad, you were a great father. Well, sudden, there's parts of me that were not great.

[13:12]You shouldn't think of me that way because I don't want you to repeat this kind of behavior.

[13:16]It's not acceptable. And he says, but you forgot all the times you got me up and took me to

[13:21]wrestling with all the times you spent training me all the time you spent doing this and that.

[13:26]And it's very interesting how Logan in particular was able ended up focusing on the better

[13:33]parts of his father. And for some reason, maybe I don't know. It must be a psychological reason

[13:38]for it to compartmentalize and pushed out the other side because he wanted to love me.

[13:43]And all my boys love me. I'm very, very fortunate that they've forgiven me and that they're,

[13:48]you know, fully in my life now.

[13:50]So wait, tell me, go back to when you were talking about your MFA and creative writing.

[13:53]And tell me about when you started, when you knew you loved to write. I mean, the way you described your childhood,

[13:58]it was less than perfect to say the least given how early you started drinking and

[14:04]doing meth and like all sorts of stuff. How did you end up in an MFA program for creative writing?

[14:10]Like, how did that even? Well, you know, it's interesting. There's things called functioning

[14:15]to alcoholics and I was a functioning alcoholic. And so I was able to get most of my work done

[14:23]and then partake to know I was able to keep that balance for quite a few years before it finally

[14:29]caught up to me probably. I made my first attempt to earnestly to get sober. I was 40. However,

[14:36]I realized I had problems in my mid 30s. But up until that point, I had, you know, I'd worked at

[14:42]gun college and I decided to be a writer that that veers off into a slightly different

[14:48]train in the train is that although I was in and out of trouble at the young age,

[14:53]although I was already using and abusing, I had a brother very good ground after

[14:59]Star Daisy Miller and a movie bed company Jeff Bridges. He saw what was happening to me.

[15:06]Ironically, he was not called himself, but I was getting into cool behavior. And my brother was

[15:12]the one first encouraging me to read a short story by Ernest Hemingway called The Evil Light of

[15:17]Place. And I read that and there's some reason or the age I really did that story and empathize

[15:23]with old man that story. And out of blue, I wrote a little piece, a little short story about

[15:29]old man. And I gave it to my brother and he, I don't know if it was very good, but he really liked

[15:36]it. I loved him. I wanted to please him. So that set me on the course of what I eventually

[15:44]was Angeles and then get out of dodge, get in trouble, move in with my father. I began to

[15:49]correspond my brother and my brother. I've seen him stories and he would write me back and say

[15:55]they were terrific, et cetera. So I got early encouraging for my brother and then I got this

[16:01]little notion of my hand that I was good at something other than crime. And I, you know, I could

[16:06]write and then I start showing my teachers and and a few of my high school teachers encouraged me

[16:12]and I think they saw the same thing. It's a troubled kid, but who tried in these attempts to write

[16:18]and so they too encouraged me. And I got a lot of encouragement from other people. And so I began

[16:24]to think that I was good at something. And that's how it started. And they just kept on doing it.

[16:31]And what's your writing process like? The boreus. You might have noticed how short my sentences are,

[16:40]how I try to strip my sentences of adjectives and adverbs. And a lot of times I don't have

[16:45]the idea or the characters or everything clearly in focus when I write, but I still feel obliged

[16:50]to put it in my time. And I have come to believe that I discover what it is I want to say in my

[16:56]writing through the process of attempting to write or to say it. And then the revision process

[17:03]curve. And so I go back and I'll revise what we revise. And it's it's it's a long process.

[17:11]I certainly toss more work than I think. Interesting. How how often do you write? Are you like

[17:17]someone who writes every day a little bit or do you only write when you're focusing on the next

[17:22]book? Like how does it fit into your regular life? It's odd because when I don't sit down to write

[17:28]up, you'll do it. And then sometimes I sit down and I'm going to need to say, darling. And so usually

[17:36]I may go well, with quite a few years between books. With Los Angeles started with nine years

[17:43]to gap. And I function in my books to be with able to write. But for the most part I do what

[17:49]I have a book project. I just want to sit down and focus. But always seems I have a book project going.

[17:55]So yeah, what's your next project? Well, I'm working on a book now with another writer

[18:01]on the Apache Khalil, a lot of book called Gun Needle Spoons, memoir about his drug now

[18:06]called Dictionary. He was facing 25 years to life and since he's got a pardon from Governor Brown

[18:12]for its iteration and former Governor Brown. And he's been playing silver for over 20 years.

[18:19]He and I have been together and he hasn't met me as well. And he and I put together,

[18:24]either Meyer or my work. And that's how we came together. So we found each other. We

[18:27]had written a couple of reviews by contact with the thank you. And anyway, to get around to your

[18:32]question, I'll get there to second. Take your time. I just wanted to do Simon now. He came into my

[18:37]life because he's co-authored the book I'm working on. And this one has to do with issues

[18:42]revolving and involving recovery and putting them into creative writing exercises.

[18:49]So you have a series of 10, 12 exercises writing exercises dealing with

[18:53]relapse, dealing with God or spirituality. And the culmination of the various exercise

[19:01]is a short story. So our belief is that we can creative writing can be used as an effective

[19:08]tool in recovery, not just generally. Most of the across the country we're going to find generally

[19:13]is very big and popular and important methodology to learn in the recovery process.

[19:20]But to you, I got to think it may be great writing can also be used. So that's the book we're

[19:26]working on now. We're almost finished. I might skip this another month. I think we'll tie it up.

[19:30]That's great. It's very exciting. Well, thank you. What advice do you have for aspiring authors?

[19:35]Don't tell them not to write. Not allowed to say that. Say anything else. No, no, I have a

[19:42]encouragement discipline and encouragement. The encouragement is that you've probably

[19:47]probably known, you've probably heard by other writers. And by the way, thank you again for

[19:51]having me on because I noticed you had some very successful writers on. I'm glad to be a part of

[19:56]your podcast and part of this interview. I'm a little bit behind you.

[20:00]You know, a very brief step.

[20:02]I think the two things, perseverance and then discipline.

[20:06]The discipline means that you need to write regularly

[20:09]and learn to own your craft.

[20:12]And that involves the actual act of writing.

[20:15]And I think we learn most about writing

[20:18]through the process of writing,

[20:19]doesn't mean that we can't learn from instructors

[20:21]who have gone to the distance themselves.

[20:23]Be helpful.

[20:24]But in the end, it's huge.

[20:25]You will know your writer yourself.

[20:27]In the end, it's just you and what

[20:30]as if you're looking at any of the computer

[20:31]or looking at the page, right along the end.

[20:34]In the end, it's just you and the pen.

[20:39]The next thing is when you take that deep breath,

[20:42]you think you have something to show.

[20:44]And you believe you have something to show.

[20:45]It's very scary at that point.

[20:47]Now you're going to put it out there,

[20:48]try to put it up into the world.

[20:50]And you're asking for acceptance.

[20:52]You want to be liked.

[20:54]You want your work to be read.

[20:56]And then the rejections have been in its heartbreaking.

[20:59]And I've seen a lot of writers, good ones.

[21:02]Some of the most talented writers I've seen

[21:05]have received rejections one after another after another.

[21:09]And some of them will give up at that point

[21:11]through the set must not be any good

[21:13]because no one's taking my work.

[21:15]And that could be the furthest thing for truth.

[21:17]Just made you may not have found the right person.

[21:19]Yeah, so my advice to the writer, aspiring writer

[21:23]and professional writer too,

[21:25]is the discipline writing regularly

[21:28]into the perseverance, continuing on along the face,

[21:32]continuing in the face and what we're bound to get

[21:35]as rejection.

[21:37]Very encouraging.

[21:38]Let me look at that.

[21:39]You're welcome.

[21:40]And I should have said earlier on,

[21:42]I meant to say in the beginning,

[21:43]just how sorry I am for the loss of your brother and sister

[21:47]and such awful, traumatic, terrible ways

[21:51]than you're having to go through your whole life

[21:53]with that loss is just really unthinkable and awful.

[21:58]So anyway, I just wanted to express how sorry I am

[22:00]that you had to go through that

[22:02]and for those losses in your life.

[22:03]Thank you, I appreciate that.

[22:05]Anyway, well, so that's it.

[22:07]Is that it?

[22:08]Okay, thank you for coming on my show.

[22:11]Thank you for this beautiful book.

[22:12]And I know you mentioned I have lots of well-known authors

[22:15]as you are as well, by the way,

[22:17]but this is really the top of the pile.

[22:21]This is a really beautiful book.

[22:23]And you belong.

[22:25]You belong at the show.

[22:26]Okay, well, thank you.

[22:28]I get appreciated very much.

[22:30]Shout out.

[22:31]All right, all right, take care.

[22:33]All right, okay, bye bye.

[22:36]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.

[22:38]Don't have time to read books.

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