Dawnie Walton, THE FINAL REVIVAL OF OPAL & NEV
[0:01]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:34]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:38]Downie Walton is the author of The Final Revival of Opal and Neve,
[0:41]which is a spectacular debut according to publisher's weekly start reviewed
[0:46]that has been named to one of 2021's most anticipated books by Essence Vogue,
[0:51]O The Oprah Magazine, L The Independent, Litub, Pop Sugar, The Millions, and Hyped Bay.
[0:56]Her work as a fiction writer and journalist explores identity, place, and influence of pop culture.
[1:01]A McDowell Colony Fellow, a tin house scholar, and a graduate of the Iowa Writers Workshop.
[1:06]She has worked as an executive level editor for magazine and multimedia brands,
[1:10]including Essence, Entertainment Weekly, Getty Images, and Life,
[1:13]a native of Jacksonville, Florida. She lives in Brooklyn.
[1:16]Welcome, Donnie. Thank you so much for coming on Momstone Have Time to Read Books
[1:20]to discuss the final revival of Opal and Neve.
[1:24]Amazing. Zibi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
[1:28]So I have to say, when I started this book and you have an editor's note in the beginning,
[1:33]I was like, oh, I guess Donnie's name is really sunny.
[1:39]I was like, oh, okay, so her real name is sunny Curtis.
[1:42]And interesting that this is her film. I didn't realize this is sort of part memoir,
[1:47]and then I was like, I am a moron. That is not at all what's going on.
[1:51]This is all fiction. And it's so clever and so unique and awesome.
[1:56]So thank you so much.
[1:59]So basically, why don't you tell listeners how this whole
[2:04]the concept and structure of the book is how you came up with it and then more about
[2:09]just like how you came up with this idea in general?
[2:11]Sure. So, you know, I'll start talking about the structure. It's a fictional oral history,
[2:17]which is basically a series of interviews. And it's sort of, you know,
[2:21]interjected with bits of memoir from the journalist who is putting together this story
[2:27]of Opalyn Neve, who are an unconventional duo, a black American woman and a white
[2:33]Englishman who make music together in the early 1970s. I worked many years as a journalist
[2:40]at Entertainment Weekly actually for about six of those years. And oral history was a format
[2:46]that we always used to tell the stories of like big, beloved movies and albums,
[2:53]just to kind of get the story from all the people involved of how those things came together.
[2:58]And it was always a format I really love to read stories and because you had, you know,
[3:04]voices overlapping and those voices were often, you know, celebrities. So they were full of
[3:09]personality, really big, you know, voices coming through. And also like the ways that memories
[3:16]would compare and contrast. And so the reader is also kind of looking for the truth in between
[3:22]the lines of everyone's memories. And so I was really intrigued by that idea for this, for this book.
[3:28]Wow. And then how did you, when did you decide you wanted it to be about performers and
[3:35]this relationship between them and, and to have this editor be a voice because that, and
[3:40]I mean, the oral history, sorry, I'm like stumbling over my words. But oral history is such a
[3:45]cool concept in general because it's almost like this could be a podcast. Like the whole book could,
[3:51]you just hear it, right? It's a, I love that idea, right? I do it. I'm sure you have lots of
[3:56]plans to do things like that. Using the oral history of it to do it on, you know, to make it like a
[4:01]very companion piece, if you will, but to read it. Yeah, the audiobook is going to be awesome.
[4:06]I have to say. I'm very excited about that. Do you have, you must have like amazing people reading
[4:10]all the voices? Yes. Yes. I cannot wait to share more about that. Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
[4:17]That's going to be great. Yeah. But, you know, I'll tell you a bit about how the idea sparked.
[4:24]In 2013, I was watching concert footage from one of my favorite bands talking heads. And at
[4:31]center stage, you had the front man, David Byrne, if anyone remembers the once in a lifetime video,
[4:37]you know, he sort of dances in a really quirky way, you know, and he's just such a fascinatingly
[4:42]kind of weird figure that I've always really loved. But then the camera pans over in the new
[4:48]seat to his left, his backup singers, two black women whose names I've since learned are
[4:54]Lynn Maybury and Edna Holt. And I found them so fascinating as well. Like they had like these braids
[5:03]and these red lipstick and they had like these gray, short suits that matched his boxy gray suit.
[5:10]And I had this crazy urge to stick my hand in the screen and literally pull one of them to
[5:16]center stage with David Byrne and just watch them for the rest of the show. And I just could not
[5:22]get that image out of my head of these two people together. And so that kind of sparked a series of
[5:30]what if questions, like what if two people like this really did get together and make kind of artsy
[5:35]weird rock and roll music. And I just started going from there. Yeah. Even in your opening
[5:43]in the letter where your sonny who is the protagonist of sorts telling the story has her own
[5:50]really powerful story with her own death of her father and how and the mother's alter ego of sorts
[5:59]you know in the family with having to compete essentially against somebody. So with so much spotlight
[6:05]on her and all of that. Yes. And it's a lot of like pain and also a lot of like gratitude
[6:14]deferred when she realizes what's been going on all these years. And then undertaking this big
[6:19]project. It's so neat. I don't know. I'm not making much sense, but so tell me about how you got
[6:26]your start as a writer. How did I know you were an entertainment weekly and all these other things
[6:30]you have MFA and everything. But tell me more about your journey to getting here. Yeah. Yeah. So
[6:36]you know again I was a journalist for 20 years and I got into that field because you know even as a
[6:42]kid I was very practical. I always love to read and I always wanted to write fiction. But I didn't
[6:49]know that you could like actually like make a living doing that. I just it wasn't like
[6:54]something that I thought was a practical thing to do. And so that's why I entered journalism. But
[7:00]the secret about journalism is kind of like the higher up you get the less writing you do. So
[7:06]near the end of my career, you know as I was an executive level editor at Essence Magazine,
[7:11]wonderful brands love my experience there. But you know it was a lot less about writing and a lot
[7:18]more about managing people, doing some light editing. And so I still had this craving inside me
[7:27]to express myself creatively. And so you know I started writing this book kind of on the edges of
[7:33]my day like really early in the morning. If I had the energy after work I would work late at night
[7:39]like anytime with day that was quiet and my emails weren't blowing up. It was when I was writing
[7:46]and I reached a point with it where I just wanted to focus on it full time. And I you know had a
[7:55]friend who was a writer and was telling me kind of about all the opportunities that are out there,
[8:01]the fellowships and things like that. And so I applied for a fellowship at an artist residency
[8:06]called McDowell and I got in. And you know when I applied for that I promised myself that I would
[8:14]really go for it if I got in really not thinking that I was going to get it. But when I did it was like
[8:20]okay time to jump. And I did and I ended up while I was there learning about such a thing as an
[8:27]MFA. And that fall I applied to programs got into Iowa and that's where I finished the first draft
[8:34]of this. There's such an allure of Iowa and McDowell and Giotto and all of these places.
[8:40]Like what was it like to actually be there? Like was it what was it like both of them? I mean
[8:46]when you got to McDowell, did you meet people there who are now like who are like the most
[8:51]brilliant writers ever? Or like what was it? So yeah. So Jeremy O'Harris was at McDowell when I was
[8:58]there. And we all knew that he was like a star. Oh yeah he's going to be famous. And of course
[9:06]now he is. But when I was there it was the wildest feeling. I had climbed so high in my professional
[9:14]career. But I felt like a deer in the headlights when I was there because I knew nothing about
[9:23]the artist's life. You know. And all the artists who were there. And the cool thing about it was that
[9:29]it's interdisciplinary. So there were visual artists and filmmakers and composers. They were so
[9:37]warm and welcoming to me. But I will say like it took probably the first couple of weeks just to
[9:43]realize that like this was real life because it felt like such a dream. It was so amazing
[9:49]to have that time and that space to just focus completely on your art. It was such a gift, such a gift.
[9:57]Wow. What if you like I always wonder what if you got to
[10:00]one of these places and you couldn't think of anything
[10:02]to write, would that just never happen?
[10:04]Like, what if you had, yes?
[10:07]Yeah, you know, I think like sometimes it maybe does,
[10:10]but I think the quiet and kind of the absence
[10:14]from the busyness of your everyday life kind of puts you
[10:18]in a head space where you're able to just like think
[10:21]creatively, you know, and play, play around
[10:25]with different ideas.
[10:27]Yeah.
[10:28]And then highly recommended.
[10:29]You got to Iowa having already been a journalist
[10:32]for 20 years.
[10:33]What was that like?
[10:35]I feel like it's like the Rodney Dangerfield
[10:36]back to school moment where he's like all of a sudden, right?
[10:39]Well, it's so funny, Zibi, that you say that
[10:41]because I was the oldest person in my class.
[10:44]So I didn't know why Rodney Dangerfield.
[10:48]But, you know, because I knew what it was to work
[10:55]and I knew all of those things
[10:57]like the whole thing just felt like a blessing.
[11:02]You know, I was like, I can't believe I did do this.
[11:04]It was just, it was great.
[11:06]And I loved building community there, you know,
[11:10]especially with the other writers of color.
[11:12]It was really important.
[11:13]We're still very close to this day.
[11:15]We do zoom catch ups and all of these things
[11:18]and support each other.
[11:20]But I think also because I was older,
[11:21]I went in with the confidence in what I was doing
[11:25]and an understanding of what feedback to take
[11:28]and what to sort of like leave on the table.
[11:31]You know, I had a very clear sense of what I was doing
[11:33]and so age in that way really worked for me.
[11:37]And so did you finish this book there?
[11:40]I did, yes.
[11:41]I promised myself I would finish a full draft of it
[11:44]by graduation and I think I finished just two weeks
[11:47]before my deadline.
[11:48]And did that involve work shopping?
[11:50]Did your class?
[11:51]Oh, yeah, yeah.
[11:52]A lot of my classmates have read chunks of this novel.
[11:55]Yeah, so I worked shop.
[11:58]Did I think maybe three semesters out of the four?
[12:01]I took one off at a point where I was sort of blocked
[12:04]with the novel and not sure what happens next.
[12:07]My took time off to work on some short fiction.
[12:09]But yeah, I worked shop at heavily
[12:12]and it was incredibly helpful.
[12:13]Wow.
[12:14]So it's almost like in addition to all the different characters
[12:17]that you profile in a way in this, in the novel,
[12:21]you're also sort of carrying forward
[12:23]all the people that you did your whole program with.
[12:26]And like the, you have so many people with a hand in it.
[12:29]It's like a collaborative production in a way.
[12:31]So cool.
[12:32]I, it does feel that way.
[12:34]Yes, yes, I'm so thankful to so many different people.
[12:38]Even people in pandemic, you know,
[12:40]I have made such wonderful community just online
[12:44]between Robert Jones, Jr. and Disha Filial
[12:48]and some wonderful champions, Dontiel Modi's KSA layman
[12:52]have all been great.
[12:53]People I've never actually met in real life,
[12:55]but, you know, we've found a way to, you know,
[12:59]have conversation and community with each other
[13:01]which has been absolutely wonderful.
[13:03]Robert Jones, Jr. is on my podcast.
[13:06]It's so nice.
[13:07]He's awesome.
[13:07]It's funny, he's so great.
[13:09]Yeah.
[13:10]I feel like real life friendships,
[13:11]like what does that even mean?
[13:13]I've made so many, I've connected with so many people this year.
[13:17]I'm like, I don't even know.
[13:18]Like when I walk out on the street,
[13:20]I'm like, I didn't know everybody.
[13:22]Like, I don't know what other people who like,
[13:25]I've who might be like, you know, at NYC Flower Girl,
[13:28]like maybe that's her.
[13:29]Right.
[13:30]You know, I don't know.
[13:32]It's just crazy.
[13:33]Yeah.
[13:34]Relationships can have morphed virtually.
[13:36]And I don't know.
[13:37]I'm interested to see the integration
[13:39]of how you absorb new relationships, right?
[13:42]That you make and then put them on.
[13:44]I know when this whole thing got well again.
[13:48]Well, the funny thing is, is that Robert and I
[13:50]figured out were neighbors.
[13:52]Like, he literally have doors down from me, right?
[13:57]So we're so excited when this is all over
[13:59]to get a drink or a coffee or something like that.
[14:02]Yeah.
[14:03]Yeah.
[14:03]So what are you working on now?
[14:05]Huh.
[14:06]Well, right now, I'm really like trying to savor this moment,
[14:11]you know, being a late bloomer,
[14:13]it's like, I still am pinching myself
[14:16]that this is happening.
[14:17]And I'm trying not to like freak out about the next thing.
[14:20]But I do have an idea for a second novel.
[14:23]And when things quiet down a bit,
[14:24]I'm excited to sort of sit in some quiet time
[14:27]and really think through the characters
[14:29]because that's how things really kind of spark for me
[14:32]is thinking about characters first.
[14:34]So I'm eager to put some meat on those bones.
[14:38]That's exciting.
[14:39]And yeah, coming in all sorts of fun stuff.
[14:42]That's great.
[14:43]In terms of like how you would attack it now,
[14:46]now that you don't have the structure of like a program,
[14:49]but you've taken all that knowledge with you.
[14:51]Have you thought about not to say you have to sort of
[14:53]thinking about your next project?
[14:54]But how do you like take all those lessons of community
[14:58]and collaboration and everything?
[15:00]And then when you're not in one of those structured settings,
[15:05]how do you then move forward and like start your next project?
[15:08]Right.
[15:09]Yeah, you know, I think for me,
[15:11]it's about just leaning into what feels natural for me.
[15:15]And in writing fiction,
[15:17]I've never been a huge planner.
[15:18]It's always been like a space where I kind of come in and play
[15:23]and sort of let the characters unfold
[15:25]how they sort of naturally do
[15:28]instead of having like pinpointed like plot points.
[15:32]So for that, it's, you know, it's that for me.
[15:35]And it's also reaching out to like my Iowa friends
[15:38]who are all over the country now doing their own things
[15:41]and saying, hey, do you mind reading this?
[15:43]You know, we still trade work and give feedback.
[15:47]Yeah.
[15:48]So we question, I shouldn't have assumed that just
[15:49]because you're not in the program,
[15:51]you don't still have the same code.
[15:53]Oh, it's different though, you know,
[15:54]because people, you know, have their very busy,
[15:57]people have kids, they have jobs, you know.
[16:00]So it's different from being kind of in that bubble of Iowa
[16:04]where it was like you knew for sure every week
[16:07]going to be workshops being somebody.
[16:09]Yeah.
[16:10]So you missed the journalism world.
[16:15]I missed my friends from the journalism world.
[16:19]And I miss, you know, I mean, working in essence
[16:22]was such a wonderful experience
[16:24]because the women that we covered were so inspirational,
[16:27]you know, themselves.
[16:28]So it was so wonderful to connect with women like that
[16:33]and to work on like the live program.
[16:36]And we did, you know, essence festival,
[16:38]that kind of thing was really fun.
[16:40]I have to say like, I'm happy not to be like managing people
[16:45]or managing budgets or anything like that anymore,
[16:48]especially, you know, it's a really tough, tough climate
[16:51]for print media and it has been for some time now.
[16:55]So I don't miss that part,
[16:56]but I miss the people for sure.
[16:59]It's such a shame that this has happened to magazines.
[17:02]I feel like I just read,
[17:03]there's a woman named Kristin von Agrop,
[17:06]who used real simple.
[17:09]I know Kristin.
[17:10]Yeah.
[17:10]She has a new book out coming out called
[17:12]did I say that out loud?
[17:13]And she has a whole chapter on when she ends up
[17:16]leaving real simple.
[17:17]And you can just tell how emotional she was about it.
[17:21]What happens when your baby becomes a true like business
[17:26]on the chopping block in a way?
[17:28]Like, I don't know.
[17:29]She just captured what has been happening.
[17:32]I mean, I interned in medicine when I was like 19.
[17:35]This is like a long time ago, but, you know,
[17:37]as a bystander, I've been witnessing this slow shifting
[17:42]that's happening with the industry.
[17:43]And I'm so proud about it because I love print media.
[17:46]Like I love hold.
[17:47]Yeah, absolutely.
[17:49]It is a really emotional thing.
[17:52]It really, really is.
[17:54]Yeah.
[17:55]So I'm sorry that, yeah, just to have something so creative
[18:00]and be taken apart, I don't know.
[18:03]It's just real, it's a, it's a, it's a big bummer.
[18:08]Yeah, it is.
[18:10]You have any advice for aspiring authors?
[18:15]Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this question.
[18:17]And I think for me, it boils down to two things.
[18:20]It is find time and find community.
[18:25]And community can be anything from a writing community, you know,
[18:29]of people that you're trading work with and workshop in,
[18:32]or community can be like your support system,
[18:35]your family and your friends that like, you know,
[18:39]take over some things off your plate
[18:41]so that you have the time, you know,
[18:43]because you have to put time into it.
[18:46]You have to like sit in the chair and do the work, you know,
[18:51]and you need that mental space to think and to play.
[18:55]So those two things, I think would be my top advice.
[18:59]Those are great things.
[19:00]I missed those things.
[19:02]Yeah. Awesome.
[19:04]Well, thank you.
[19:05]I'm glad our, both of our internet somehow.
[19:07]I know I was so worried.
[19:09]I'm glad I worked out for this super creative, awesome book.
[19:14]The final arrival in Oklahoma, and I'm excited to see
[19:17]all the things from it and whatever you do next.
[19:20]And it's just super exciting.
[19:23]Thank you so much, Libby.
[19:24]I'm congrats again.
[19:25]Oh, okay.
[19:26]All right, that was a great day.
[19:27]You too, bye bye.
[19:29]Bye bye.
[19:30]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[19:33]Don't have time to read books.
[19:34]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zibi Owens,
[19:37]and at Moms Don't have time to read books.
[19:39]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[19:42]and sign up for my virtual book club
[19:43]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[19:46]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[19:48]in fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[19:50]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[19:52]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.