Dr. Amy Shah, I'M SO EFFING TIRED
[0:01]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
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[2:19]adore. Dr. Amy Shah is the author of I am so effing tired, a proven plan to beat burnout boost
[2:27]your energy and reclaim your life. She is a double board certified medical doctor and nutrition
[2:33]expert with training from Cornell, Columbia and Harvard universities, drawing from her background
[2:39]in internal medicine and allergy immunology as well as her own wellness journey. She is dedicated
[2:44]her practice to helping her patients feel better and live healthier through her integrative
[2:49]and holistic approach to wellness. She was named one of MindBodyGreens top 100 women in wellness
[2:54]to watch in 2015 and appears regularly on national television shows, podcasts, and a national
[3:00]magazine. She lives in Arizona with her family. Welcome, Amy. Thank you so much for coming on
[3:05]mom's and have time to read books. Thank you so much for having me. This is so my life.
[3:11]You mom don't have to. I'm a mom and I don't have time to read books. Your title is also just
[3:16]perfection. I am so effing tired. I feel like that is just it's just the most perfect title. It
[3:22]just completely absolutely. That's how we all feel. And yes, at least makes me feel like I'm a little
[3:27]bit less alone in that. Yeah. When I first looked into the data on it, I was so shocked to see that
[3:34]so many of us are feeling like this, but it's almost like, you know, not talked about much.
[3:39]You know, we talk about a lot of other topics for women, but we really don't talk about this
[3:45]real fatigue and burnout epidemic as it relates to kind of food and lifestyle and habits and
[3:52]mindset and things like that. So true. So you started your book. First of all,
[3:57]you're a double certified, amazing doctor craziness. Amazing. I'm so in awe. My brain just
[4:03]does not work that way. So whenever I meet someone with that capability, but you start off the book
[4:08]in such an authentic open way about the car accident you got into and how it made you sort of stop
[4:13]and think and reshift. And then of course you give the rest of us all this amazing advice.
[4:17]And I'm convinced I have like every single melody that you put in the book.
[4:21]So what do you put enough out there? So tell me a little, tell listeners, I guess a little more
[4:26]about the inspiration for this, for you writing this book and your whole career into wellness and
[4:32]how we can be not so tired as I sit here with my like, you know, warmed up during that I can
[4:37]drink all day. Yeah. I, you know, part of it is just our lives. Part of it is what we are asked to do.
[4:46]And I think you'll appreciate this because I think when I was in medical school and, you know,
[4:52]trying to get into medical school, I was really busy and I was tired. But I wasn't to the point
[4:59]where I was having anxiety and mood changes and GI symptoms and burnout symptoms. And I think the
[5:08]really big thing that changed was children. And I think having children put on a backpack of
[5:17]that like responsibility and expectations that I had never had before. And so I start the book
[5:25]talking about trying to excel at all of it. You know, I had a new practice handed to me, meaning
[5:33]they were just like, here Dr. Shaw, like this is going to be your baby. And you have to grow it
[5:38]as a physician on your own. And I literally was like, oh my God, like I don't know how to grow anything.
[5:44]I've never run a business before. And then I had these two little rug rats were so beautiful,
[5:53]but they would literally be in my mind at all times, especially when I wasn't with them.
[5:59]And I would be thinking like, okay, I'm not a good mom if I don't constantly think about how
[6:05]I can make their lives better. And they were really little at the time. And, you know, really
[6:10]dependent on us to help. So I had called in my parents for support and we had help. And it still
[6:18]was overwhelming. So basically that's when I really felt the symptoms of burnout fatigue. And to
[6:25]the point where I thought this was unsustainable. But I couldn't stop like it was like this train I
[6:31]was on, you know, that we all are on. And we can't we know something's off. We know something has
[6:36]to change. But we don't know how to pause or how to change it. So we just keep going. And that's
[6:42]what I did until I got into a very life threatening car accident that forced me to pause because I
[6:49]couldn't go to work. And I couldn't take care of my children. And I couldn't do any of the things that
[6:53]I was usually better on my to-do list. And that really changed everything for me because I said,
[6:59]wow, I need to do something. I need to fix this problem. And as I fixed it, I failed
[7:06]a ton. But a few things that I found that worked for me. I share in the books.
[7:10]I know. And your all your advice with eating is so I mean, it doesn't seem like it would be
[7:17]that hard to follow. But I'm like, but I don't really know that I want to eat those leafy greens.
[7:21]And like those are my favorite foods. And like what I'm sure that I eat. And I don't know. It's
[7:28]it seems very easy to follow. And I love your plan. But I feel like I internally have like such
[7:33]resistance to to adopting it. I'm sure you face this from people all the time, right?
[7:38]And what do we do? Yeah, people people keep asking me, you know, what what's the magic
[7:45]appeal there? Like what's if we can't do all this things, all these things, like what is the pill
[7:50]that we can take that can kind of, you know, replace all of that. And I get it because I wish
[7:55]there was two, like I wish there was a pill that could just replace all the greens and the fiber
[7:59]that we need to take. But honestly, it you automate it. And maybe that's what I did. I started to
[8:06]automate my at least my vegetable intake a little bit. And you know, I still have days I struggle. But
[8:12]and seeing with my circadian fasting, like I started to build a life that just included those things
[8:20]that it doesn't become as big of an effort anymore. So tell me a little about this high
[8:25]cortisol state because I feel like I must have that one. Yeah, life is stressed. Tell me about
[8:33]the effects of like basically always making too much cortisol and like living like you're under
[8:38]the gun all the time and the detrimental long-term effects of that. And by the way, are they reversible
[8:45]like or am I doing? Yeah, damage to myself. Right. I know. Okay. So multi-pronged question. But if
[8:53]you think about it, even 100 years ago, there were many practices built into our culture to kind
[8:58]of counteract some of those stressful days in religion, old cultures and how life used to be for
[9:06]women and for men. You know, there were built in moments of parasympathetic activation, which means
[9:12]like our rest of relaxation mode. Now, we've basically taken that all out because we say, well, we
[9:18]have to be productive all the time and we have 24 seven access to computers and phones and so
[9:23]you could be working all the time. And so we've lost these habits that used to counteract the cortisol.
[9:30]And so that's why we are in such a bad place. So for example, a person like what you're describing,
[9:36]when you have so much stress all the time, when it approaches night, your body actually becomes
[9:43]really sensitive to light and to food and to stressors. And it's thinking like, is there a danger
[9:51]for Zibi right now? Like, should I just stay awake because she's running from a tiger? You know,
[9:57]like, that's how our bodies are wired. Because-
[10:00]She's very stressed. So if it senses that you're really stressed that you're looking at bright lights that you are giving the signal of danger to the body, the body will be like, okay, I'll stay awake, we're not going to start the repair and renewal processes, we're going to just focus on getting blood flow.
[10:19]to your legs, to your heart, so it can beat faster and to the parts of your brain that you need just to focus on safety. Okay, so then what happens is if you can't sleep, she feels like her heart's beating really fast, like you're feeling like anxious, you can't think clearly, don't even ask us, you know, a complicated problem because our brain is like only hyper focused on the tasks at hand.
[10:47]And you basically cannot sleep and you didn't get the repair and renewal processes that you needed for your hormones and your gut and the rest of your body, so you wake up, you're exhausted, you're anxious, and you basically told your body that it was, it was too dangerous to fall asleep and that makes sense, right, we as a human species are, we're built to protect ourselves from danger.
[11:13]So that's why in high times of stress, I'm sure you'd had it with your book launch, your body can't tell the difference between like a tiger, you know, danger you and a deadline or a big book launch where you're expecting.
[11:26]And so we interpret those things as dangers are brain does and our hormones stay in cortisol crazy mode, which makes us exhausted.
[11:37]And it depletes our body's ability to restore our other hormones and, you know, why do people have all these thyroid issues and then they have like, you know, cycle their cycles completely off is because it affects all of it.
[11:51]And to add to insult to injury, women are especially sensitive to stressors and we have this hormone or brain that's pulsating.
[12:02]It's called G and our age, Connecticut, releasing hormone and that pulse stops when there's a lot of danger in your life or stress in your life.
[12:12]Exercise stress, whether it's emotional stress and when that pulse stops the entire hormonal system pauses.
[12:20]So there's no ovulation that month.
[12:22]That means that a lot of women will skip their period.
[12:25]That means that they will have symptoms of hormonal imbalance because your hormones were like your G and our age was like, whoa, I need to pause this because there's a lot of stuff going on that we need to attend to.
[12:38]I want the chance we think it's because our bodies protecting us from getting pregnant during a time of severe stress.
[12:48]So you can imagine during a severe famine or during a severe drought or during a severe war, the body is protecting you from being fertile and in turn, even if you weren't trying to get pregnant, you have the fallout from that.
[13:04]Wow, I actually haven't heard infertility sort of described in that way because that's essentially what you're saying.
[13:10]I mean, that's so interesting.
[13:12]Wow, okay, digesting all of that.
[13:16]Also, as you mentioned and in your book, also you talk a lot about the impact on mood because it's so inextricably linked.
[13:24]And of course, any woman knows like with your hormones that can throw your mouth like a hundred percent every month or whatever.
[13:31]In fact, in your book, there was this quiz, which now I feel like has changed my entire marriage because I was sitting there in my head.
[13:37]So I was like, let's do this quiz together.
[13:39]Like on a scale of one to 10, like how would you say your mood is?
[13:42]And he's like, oh, I'd say my mood's like five all the time, like the top of it.
[13:46]And I was like, really?
[13:47]I don't think I would put your mood that high.
[13:49]And then he's like, and then he's like, well, what about you?
[13:51]And I was like, I think my mood's probably like three.
[13:54]And he was like, I feel like your mood is generally a one.
[13:58]Oh, what?
[14:00]I was like, no.
[14:01]And he's like, well, you're stressed so much.
[14:03]And I was like, yeah, but just because I'm stressed doesn't mean I'm in a bad mood.
[14:07]Like, is that how it's?
[14:08]Yeah.
[14:09]So is stress necessarily make you in a bad mood?
[14:13]Like, do bad mood?
[14:14]Yeah.
[14:15]There's nothing a lot to do necessarily cause stress.
[14:16]Can you just have a lot to do?
[14:18]And like, what do you do about all of that?
[14:20]I mean, it can't be cured with like three days of working out and like, you know.
[14:24]Yeah.
[14:26]That's a problem with, you know, the culture that we live in right now.
[14:32]So the culture we live in is like, you work so hard and you are rewarded.
[14:38]You know, by saying like, you'll say like, I have worked so hard that I can't even sleep.
[14:44]And I'm so stressed that, you know, can't even do the things.
[14:47]And people are like, wow, that's so great.
[14:49]Like that in your mind, you're like, I'm doing a great job.
[14:52]You know, and then you burn out.
[14:54]And then you go say you go to a quick vacation weekend away, a spot A, whatever it is.
[14:59]And then you come back to this insane life again.
[15:03]And there is this thought that you can just like, you know, take a day off here and there when you burn out.
[15:09]But what I am challenging people to do is like,
[15:12]fix your daily life.
[15:15]So fixing fatigue is not about doing less because look, we did less during this past year.
[15:21]And we were more tired than ever.
[15:24]It's not about doing less.
[15:25]It's actually about doing more.
[15:27]More of the things that actually recharge you.
[15:30]When our cell phone is low on battery, we don't just use it less.
[15:34]Like, oh, we'll just, you put it on the charger and you recharge it.
[15:38]And you do the things that you need to do because you know that you just leave it on low battery and just use it less.
[15:45]That's really not the way to get that battery back.
[15:49]Right.
[15:50]So the same thing.
[15:51]We cannot just say, oh, mom's just rest a little more.
[15:55]You know, like just just figure out a way to, you know, do less.
[15:59]And that's actually the worst advice.
[16:01]It's the opposite.
[16:02]Do more of the things that give you that energy and fire and recharge from inside.
[16:09]And that's the key.
[16:11]And so making just like you said, it's not about eating the smooth like drinking the smoothie and working out.
[16:18]It's about creating spaces in your day, in your week, in your month, in your life.
[16:24]That actually bring you joy that we charge you that put your body in this parasympathetic mode, which is our kind of more relaxed creative mode, which can be done in various ways and build that into your life.
[16:39]And that's why I give tips.
[16:41]Here, I understand that's very cerebral and like people might be like, oh, but what are things like that would actually do that for me.
[16:50]And so that's why I talk about, you know, maybe going for a nature-based workout in the morning and giving your body some natural sun that basically tells the body it's daytime to time to be energetic.
[17:02]Time to think complex task and tells your metabolism time to get to work.
[17:07]And so you get all these benefits, not only mood boosting and also relaxing, but also helps with your circadian rhythm.
[17:16]So building in these small things throughout the day can really, really help.
[17:19]And that's the first, like, if you were doing one, if you could do one thing, that's what I would suggest.
[17:24]Just go outside in the morning. If you have time for a walk or 20 minute workout rate.
[17:30]Otherwise, spend a couple of minutes out there reflect on your life on your energy or do a prayer, do humming.
[17:36]In fact, humming, the word ome, the hum at the back of that is known to activate the parasympathetic system.
[17:46]These sages thousands of years ago when they picked these songs and these hymns and like religious.
[17:52]If you look at most religions across the world, there's a form up like humming and that's a way to activate the vagus nerve and put you into the counteract that stress mode that you're talking about.
[18:03]So if you're like, hey, how do I counteract that stress mode? There's two easy ways. One is hum.
[18:09]It can be ome or it can be a humming song or it can be just humming. And the two second one is to do this slow exhale out.
[18:19]The slow exhale out is often also called the physiological side. It's a way for us to counteract the stress in our body at the stress hormone.
[18:30]Doing a few slow sides out like you breathe in, breathe out. And that would be something super easy to do outdoors in the daytime, get some sunlight and start go on with your day.
[18:43]I'm going to add one thing to that and you tell me if it counts, but when you were deciding it like that is what I get when I do podcasts and I have like little 30 minute things that I sprinkle throughout my days.
[18:54]Where I sit and I'm not running around and I can relax and I can chat and I use my brain, but I use my creativity and like that is how I recharge and people ask me like, there's your energy from like how can you do all these podcasts and I haven't been able to articulate like some of the benefits, but that's just it like.
[19:13]This is how I recharge, but ironically also how I lose it because of all the associated work. But anyway, so I feel like no that's that's a great that's a great way.
[19:23]I mean doing creative work, whatever that is our dance singing are all amazing ways and like I said, you know, these were built into cultures into lives and now it's like considered, oh like play, but really that's supposed to be part of human life.
[19:41]So what does your human life look like like art and how did you fit in writing a book on top of everything else when do you get everything done when do you do it on.
[19:50]Yeah, great question I'm a mom just like so many of us are and I'm busy a doctor I have a clinical practice and I'm super into fitness and nutrition as you.
[20:00]No, so the way I did it is that for me writing was my creative outlet.
[20:05]And so when I was healing myself from this intense burnout,
[20:10]and I knew I had to do something, I actually started reading and writing more.
[20:15]And for me, because I had to search deep inside,
[20:18]like everybody had to do this work themselves.
[20:20]Like what is it that gives you that recharge?
[20:24]It doesn't have to be the same as, you know, someone else.
[20:27]But for me, it was creative.
[20:29]All this time, I had been so interested in nutrition and health.
[20:33]And I felt like in my clinical practice,
[20:35]I wasn't able to use it in that creative way.
[20:38]And so I was feeling like really almost like stunted in what I thought I could like offer.
[20:44]And the best thing ever happened to me was when I was, you know,
[20:48]healing myself, I was in the car listening to a podcast.
[20:52]And the ritual podcast, I don't know if you've ever heard of it.
[20:55]Like a health and wellness, it had to start it.
[20:57]And I had read his book, Finding Ultra.
[21:00]And so I was just listening to his podcast and he had Jason walk up
[21:03]who was the creator of Mind Body Green on the podcast.
[21:07]And this is almost 10 years ago.
[21:08]And he said, anyone who is anyone in wellness or interested in wellness
[21:13]would know Mind Body Green.
[21:15]And Jason, you're accepting submissions, right?
[21:17]And Jason said, yeah, we're accepting submissions for many of, you know,
[21:20]any listeners on the health and wellness in the health and wellness world.
[21:24]So that day when I got to work in between patients,
[21:28]I had like been writing here and there for fun.
[21:30]And I just like created a blog post and I submitted it.
[21:33]And lo and behold, about two days later, I got a message.
[21:37]And it was really simple email.
[21:38]It was like, thanks for your submission.
[21:40]This is a cool post.
[21:42]Like we'd like to post it.
[21:43]And for me, it was like this permission.
[21:45]Like, okay, I, my creative outlet can reach more people than just like
[21:51]my personal diary.
[21:53]And I started to write more and write more.
[21:56]And I was submitting like a few posts a week, every single week.
[22:00]And that was my outlet.
[22:01]And that's how I basically stumbled upon this whole social media world,
[22:05]this wellness world.
[22:06]Because at some point, they were like, hey, you doctor,
[22:08]you mean people are asking how to get in touch with you.
[22:10]But all we have is like your phone number, your email,
[22:13]and like, you know, your practice information.
[22:16]And so I basically went on Google like a lot of people do.
[22:20]And I learned like, how do you make a website?
[22:22]And then that's how I started into this world.
[22:25]So it wasn't until just a few years ago that I actually entered the social media space
[22:29]because I realized that would be a really nice way to send out smaller messages
[22:33]than blog posts would do.
[22:36]And so that's how I got to writing my book.
[22:38]And it was the daily grind of it was insane.
[22:42]And I basically had to really lean upon the things I have learned
[22:47]through my burnout journey.
[22:49]So what I do is I set a very strict morning and evening routine.
[22:54]And I automate at least two of my meals.
[22:57]What does that mean?
[22:58]And that automate means I picked something that I really love.
[23:03]And I have it every day over and over and over again.
[23:07]So it's not like automating in the sense of like you're eating from
[23:10]this like portion controlled, Tupperware, that's full of like broccoli and chicken.
[23:15]No, like what I'm talking about is picking something you love.
[23:19]So for me, you know, it's a series of things that I love to eat in the morning.
[23:24]That makes me feel good that are healthy enough, but also tasty.
[23:29]So you want to get to this point and I did, you know, I don't like to like give too
[23:34]many instructions, but you want to get to the point where you're eating something
[23:37]that's good for you, but also like slightly enjoyable, but not enjoyable so
[23:43]much so that you would like, you know, a whole box of it.
[23:46]So like don't pick a donut as you're automated if that's a trigger food for you.
[23:51]But maybe something like oh, yeah, like oatmeal's great.
[23:57]Bear I love berries and nuts and or smoothing try.
[24:02]I basically do this like concoction of things that I take every single day
[24:05]with me to work.
[24:06]And I do it like I fast from overnight.
[24:09]So say I started fast like at seven p.m.
[24:12]Then seven a.m. I'll go for a workout and then around eight, 30 or nine.
[24:17]I will have my first like meal and that'll be automated.
[24:21]And usually I automate that plus my lunch meal, which again, makes it easy.
[24:26]Right? It's nourishing.
[24:27]It's enjoyable on weekdays.
[24:29]It works on weekends.
[24:30]I kind of let it go.
[24:31]And it keep a semblance of in morning and evening routine, no matter where I am
[24:36]or what I'm doing.
[24:37]It was easy during pandemic because we weren't going anywhere.
[24:40]But before that, I wouldn't even if we're traveling.
[24:42]I would make sure that I would do a semblance, meaning like a mini version
[24:46]of the morning and evening routine every day.
[24:48]Wow.
[24:49]I love that because then you don't have to waste the time thinking about it.
[24:51]Yeah, exactly.
[24:53]Yeah, automated as much as possible.
[24:55]I automate.
[24:56]I wear the same clothes to clinic every single day.
[24:59]I mean, not the same physical clothes, but like the same outfits.
[25:02]Cut time out of your life by not doing the laundry.
[25:05]Says doctor.
[25:06]Yeah, exactly.
[25:07]Yeah, I have like a set of five things that I wear every single week.
[25:10]And that, to me, feels free.
[25:13]Like, oh, I don't have to think about what I'm wearing.
[25:15]Because I wear white coat, like a lap coat in my clinic.
[25:18]And so it kind of frees up what you wear underneath.
[25:21]And I just basically make it like fitness wear.
[25:23]And I have like, so that way just like so many of moms.
[25:28]I'm just like running for one thing to the next.
[25:30]And I want to always be ready for a workout, even if I'm not going to be doing a
[25:33]a workout just in case.
[25:35]And so, and I wear really comfortable shoes because I felt like for me, for some reason,
[25:40]my energy was being like sucked when I examined my life so much of my energy was being
[25:45]sucked out from wearing clothes that were uncomfortable and shoes that were uncomfortable.
[25:52]And I was like, well, I wear a lap coat and I can wear any shoes I want.
[25:57]And I don't understand why I have this like idea in my head of what, you know, like
[26:02]what I should be looking like when it's really up to me.
[26:05]What makes me happy and what energizes me.
[26:08]And so I chose, you know, to really build in things into my life that actually make
[26:14]it recharging to take out the time and energy suckers.
[26:18]Like, and I talk about even, you know, the people in your life, not just activities
[26:24]or foods or clothes, it's, it's, there's people.
[26:27]And if you examine your life, you'll find people that are constantly sucking to energy
[26:32]out of you.
[26:33]And, you know, you control your life and your energy and your time.
[26:36]And maybe you start to push those people to the periphery and you bring other people into
[26:42]the center.
[26:43]Like, this is your room, you know, you get to control it.
[26:47]So you're saying I can take one of my four kids and push them out, they are, they can be
[26:52]at the periphery.
[26:53]Yeah.
[26:54]Right.
[26:55]If energy sucks.
[26:56]No, but they give me so much joy.
[26:57]I'm just kidding.
[26:58]Obviously, I love my.
[26:59]Yeah.
[27:00]But there are people who like message me and they're like, oh, my mother-in-law or,
[27:05]you know, mother, whatever it is.
[27:07]And what I say is like, it's not like this combative thing where you're going to go
[27:11]up to them and say, like, I hate you and I don't want your energy.
[27:14]It's not like that.
[27:15]It's like you in your mind say it's your mom or your mother-in-law, you in your mind decide
[27:20]that you're not going to engage with the negative conversation or the things that really
[27:25]bring you down.
[27:27]And you get to control how you interact and maybe you only focus on subjects that are
[27:32]neutral or maybe you remove yourself from situations where it's uncomfortable or drinking
[27:37]for you.
[27:38]You don't have to be a martyr for every single person on this planet and I think setting
[27:43]up boundaries was something that I've learned and I didn't know that they were called boundaries
[27:47]until recently when like social media and I was like, oh, yeah, that's what I've been trying
[27:50]to do all these 10 years like when I'm trying to fix my burnout is like, cut up boundaries
[27:55]with people with things and so that I can save a little bit for the work that I want
[28:00]to do.
[28:01]Oh, I think at least for me during the pandemic, it became very clear the people who
[28:06]I wanted to keep in close touch with and those who maybe weren't as additive as I had thought
[28:12]or you know what I mean?
[28:13]Like you get to really, yeah, you get to, it's shined as a spotlight on some of those
[28:17]relationships that I hadn't taken time to really think through before and how to best
[28:21]them in it.
[28:22]Yeah.
[28:23]Amazing.
[28:24]You're so busy all the time.
[28:25]I know, yeah, we'll like look for you at every workout class I ever go to from now on.
[28:28]But I'm just doing more of the same trying to get my basic message out there is for us
[28:37]to be examining women's health for us to be talking about how the mind is connected to
[28:43]the body and how food and burnout are not really talked about topics like how nutrition
[28:50]or lifestyle or your self care plays into this, but just continue to spread that message
[28:55]and you know, talk about my book basically.
[28:57]Amazing.
[28:58]Sorry, I think I've said amazing like 20 times because everything you're saying, I'm
[29:01]just like, yes.
[29:02]That was nice to meet you too.
[29:04]Yes.
[29:05]Also, anyway, I'm sorry about that.
[29:06]I love it.
[29:07]What advice would you have for aspiring others?
[29:09]Oh, this is a good one.
[29:11]I loved, right.
[29:13]I just loved the whole book process.
[29:16]Okay.
[29:17]Yes.
[29:18]I agree with you.
[29:19]I read your essay about how it should be short.
[29:21]It shouldn't be two years.
[29:22]I agree.
[29:23]Like I think that with medical science, like two years is like dated, you know, like
[29:28]your science that is is already old.
[29:31]So my advice to new authors is, you know, youth as a creative outlet, just like we were
[29:39]talking about.
[29:40]Like don't think of this as somebody's judging your work.
[29:43]Think of it as that you are using the creative forces inside of you to create something.
[29:49]But once you create it, it's gone from you.
[29:51]And just like if you were, if somebody was going to insult, you know, a painting or a
[29:56]song that you made you to be like, oh, well, that was one of my works of art.
[30:00]But I have a lot more. And that's how you should think of any creative work, put your creative work out there. And if someone doesn't enjoy it, you can be like, it's fine, but it's not a personal attack on yourself. So just treat it like that.
[30:12]Perfect.
[30:13]Amy, thank you so much. I'm so glad we finally connected. I would love to continue this in person in some way, shape or form. I feel like there's so much more to discuss. But thank you for coming on my podcast. Thank you for spreading your message to help so many women, which is just really
[30:28]say it one more time. Really amazing.
[30:33]That's a new or amazing, Zigbee. Thank you so much for having me and I'm enjoying all your content. I wish I had like it's one of those things. I'm like, oh, everything you say. I'm like, yeah, agree with that. So love finding online. It's like minded people. Me too. Me too. Can't wait to meet you too. Okay. Take care. I take care. I take care. I take care. I take care. Bye.
[30:52]Thanks again, nail Butler for sponsoring today's episode. Again, for anyone interested in getting a business subscription, you could use code Zigbee 33 and start sending emails better. Thanks for listening to this episode of moms. Don't have time to read books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibb Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at
[31:21]Textures Sound for the Sound Editing and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.