Gail Crowther, THREE-MARTINI AFTERNOONS AT THE RITZ
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[2:02]Gale Crother is the author of Three Martini Afternoons at the Ritz.
[2:06]They're a billion of Sylvia Plath and Anne Sexton.
[2:10]Gale is a freelance writer, researcher, and academic.
[2:13]She's also the author of The Haunted Reader and Sylvia Plath and the co-author of Sylvia Plath in Devon,
[2:19]a year's turning, and these ghostly archives, the unerthing of Sylvia Plath.
[2:24]Gale divides her time between the North of England with her dog George and London.
[2:28]As a feminist begin, she engages with politics concerning gender, power, and animal rights.
[2:33]And you will hear in the episode about how she got a PhD in a different topic.
[2:38]Welcome, Gale.
[2:39]Thank you so much for coming on mom's time to read books.
[2:42]Thank you so much for having me.
[2:44]Okay, your book Three Martini Afternoons at the Ritz,
[2:47]the rebellion of Sylvia Plath and Anne Sexton.
[2:50]First of all, you are like the foremost scholar on Sylvia Plath.
[2:53]You must be the most accomplished Sylvia Plath scholar in the world.
[2:57]Is that true?
[2:58]Pretty much.
[2:59]Well, I think that's very kind of you to say,
[3:01]but I think there are many, really amazing Plath scholars out there.
[3:05]And I don't think I could take a tip off, but certainly.
[3:09]I spent a long time researching Sylvia Plath and writing about him,
[3:13]and this is actually my fourth book about her.
[3:15]So, you know, I've dedicated quite a lot of time to a really.
[3:19]I do want to talk about this book, but I first just need to know,
[3:22]like what draws you so much to her?
[3:25]Why dedicate your professional life to delving so deep into another woman's
[3:30]career and life and history and like what is it?
[3:33]Do you think that draws you so much to her?
[3:38]Yeah, I mean, it happened by accident, which is a very odd thing really.
[3:42]I was 13 years old at school in a library,
[3:46]and we were just told to spend the afternoon choosing a book and reading a book.
[3:50]And so I just randomly went to the poetry section and pulled out this collection,
[3:54]which was randomly, very randomly Sylvia Plath, and I opened the book.
[3:59]And it was a poem mirror that started with the line I'm silver and exact.
[4:03]And my 13 year old self just honestly fell into this book,
[4:08]and I've never got out again.
[4:09]And I just I'd never heard a voice like it.
[4:12]And then from the age of 39,
[4:14]and so I just started reading everything that she'd written.
[4:17]But then oddly, my background isn't in English literature,
[4:20]and it isn't in literary theory either.
[4:22]I'm a sociologist.
[4:24]So I'm coming from quite an odd angle really, I think.
[4:28]So looking at the, I suppose the cultural figure of Plath, you know,
[4:32]and why she has so much significance for so many people,
[4:37]and my PhD was about why people become so attached to her.
[4:41]And I spent four years researching that, and I still don't have an answer.
[4:47]I mean, obviously she's an incredible wife for four years, well spent.
[4:53]But you know, so that I think there are there are lots of reasons,
[4:57]but people seem to have a very special relationship to Plath,
[5:00]and I cannot obviously relate to that,
[5:02]but I still never really quite managed to know why.
[5:06]So interesting.
[5:08]Well, you also in, so in three martini afternoons of the ritz,
[5:11]you also track an interesting path at all the different intersections
[5:15]of Sylvia Plath and Ansexton's lives,
[5:17]how they grew up, you know, only four years apart,
[5:19]and then basically the same town outside Boston,
[5:22]and how there were so many parallels between the two,
[5:24]and yet so many differences in how they culminated,
[5:27]finally, in them getting to know each other after this course,
[5:30]they were both enrolled in, but you use it as a great way
[5:34]to really shine a light on what they were even writing about
[5:38]and some of their innermost feelings
[5:40]and how those came out over time.
[5:42]And I was particularly struck by their shared frustration
[5:47]at their roles, sort of as these, you know,
[5:51]middle upper middle class white women trapped in the roles of mother
[5:56]and the limitations on their roles in society at the time
[5:59]and how they fought against that.
[6:01]So I was hoping maybe you could talk a little bit
[6:03]about that angle of the two of them
[6:05]and how they kind of dealt with that,
[6:07]the mothering section, the feelings about their sort of lot
[6:11]in life when, you know, if they had been born today,
[6:13]things would be very different,
[6:15]but they'd probably be like bloggers and whatever,
[6:17]but anyway, tell me a little more about that.
[6:19]Well, I suppose I was quite interested in the ways,
[6:22]I mean, the kind of so tight of the book is the rebellion
[6:25]of Sylvia Plath and Ansexton,
[6:27]and I was quite interested in all of the ways
[6:30]that they kicked against that 1950s message
[6:34]of what women should be
[6:36]and the type of wife they should be,
[6:38]the type of mother that they should be.
[6:40]And I was quite interested to explore
[6:43]what parts of that 1950s very patriarchal ideology
[6:49]they had absorbed, which parts of it that they decided
[6:52]to just completely boot out of their lives.
[6:55]And it was interesting to see,
[6:57]you could see them balance in that tension.
[7:01]And particularly with Plath, I think you can see that
[7:04]in so much as she was determined to be this amazing writer
[7:08]and that her time should be at her own
[7:11]in which she would curve out writing time,
[7:13]she still wanted to be the perfect wife
[7:16]and the perfect mother in the perfect cook
[7:18]and the perfect home keeper
[7:20]and all of these different things
[7:22]that she was trying to manage at the same time.
[7:24]I think Sexton was a bit more relaxed about that.
[7:27]And I think she was much bold
[7:29]and seemed to have much more confidence about
[7:32]taking time for herself, grasping and not caring
[7:35]if her house was messy.
[7:37]She had someone who came in to clean for her
[7:40]to do her laundry and husband did the cooking
[7:42]and all of the shopping for food.
[7:45]She had family members who dropped the children to school
[7:48]and took them to their lessons after school.
[7:51]So I think Sexton was more comfortable with rejecting
[7:56]those traditional expectations
[7:58]of what she should have been doing as a wife and a mother
[8:01]or as Plath seemed to be very much trying to handle
[8:05]all her do it all and be exceptionally brilliant
[8:09]at all of it as well.
[8:10]There were a couple of times that I just wanted to read
[8:14]a quote or two, hold on.
[8:15]Let me see if I can find it.
[8:17]A little piece more on growing up so constrained
[8:20]you pointed out there were all these ads
[8:23]and everything in the culture at the time
[8:25]was pointing towards how women belonged at home
[8:29]and, you know, get your wife this Hoover vacuum
[8:32]and, you know, that's what she needs.
[8:34]And there was just so much pressure to be a wife
[8:38]and yet they had these thoughts and feelings
[8:41]that they expressed in their writing,
[8:44]particularly the quotes from Silvia Plath
[8:46]in her early work about not wanting to feel this trap
[8:51]and saying that her writing was really the only way out of it.
[8:54]So how do you think they used their writing
[8:56]to kind of escape the trap of where they felt
[9:00]themselves ended up to be?
[9:02]That was not my most articulate question
[9:04]but I think you got the point.
[9:06]No, I think you're completely right.
[9:08]I think they actually directly used a writing
[9:11]to manage the rest of their lives
[9:15]and certainly, Silvia Plath is very open about this
[9:19]and there are at least just off the top of my head,
[9:22]there are at least two letters that I can think of
[9:24]where she actually starts.
[9:26]I can only be a wife and mother because I write
[9:31]and that she would not be able to do all of that domestic,
[9:35]you know, take all that domestic responsibility
[9:38]if she didn't have time to write.
[9:40]And so I think that writing was absolutely vital for both of them
[9:44]and certainly in terms of, I think,
[9:46]for Sexton writing was vital in terms of keeping her quite healthy
[9:51]to, you know, her daughter, Linda Gracexton,
[9:55]who's written to very eloquent articulate.
[10:00]and was about her more and growing up
[10:02]with her mom talks about how my mom was never crazy
[10:05]when she wrote, you know,
[10:06]but she should kind of, you know,
[10:08]the times that Anne Sexton,
[10:10]I think became most ill with the times Linda said
[10:14]when her type prior to fell silent.
[10:16]So in that sense, I think writing for them
[10:18]was a fondant number of different purposes.
[10:22]And what's interesting is that both of them also saw
[10:24]it as a business too.
[10:25]I mean, it was a career, it was a job, it was a business.
[10:27]And although they both said, you know,
[10:30]we don't do this to make money.
[10:32]We do this because we have to write,
[10:33]they both also said, but also we like to get paid,
[10:36]and we want to get paid fairly,
[10:37]and we should get paid.
[10:39]Sexton in particular, she was like a warm woman
[10:42]campaign activist for fair pay, you know,
[10:45]before all of that was even kind of in our social consciousness.
[10:50]Her letters are astounding when you read them.
[10:53]And then when she didn't win the prize,
[10:55]it was in prize, they went to the third member
[10:58]of their sort of trifecta in the class.
[11:00]And she was so upset that she hadn't won it
[11:02]when her poem was probably better.
[11:04]Just, she's like, a man got it, and this is why.
[11:07]Yeah, I love how you also talk in this book
[11:13]about the effects of their upbringing,
[11:16]and how there's this cultural sort of assumption
[11:21]that these women and mental illness and things
[11:25]that have happened with them are only because of their own makeup.
[11:29]When in fact, their upbringing has completely dictated,
[11:33]or at least has a huge part in how they've ended up,
[11:37]how they ended up becoming, and what happened
[11:39]with their early lives, and you know,
[11:41]the nine years after Sylvia Platt's dad passed away,
[11:44]and how her life sort of took on a totally different shape
[11:47]after that in these years that she doesn't talk about,
[11:49]and her relationship with her mother
[11:51]who ended up having to take on the burden
[11:53]of being a single mom with two little kids,
[11:56]and having to support the family
[11:58]and not necessarily being warm and loving,
[12:00]and then you can trust, you know,
[12:02]and sexed in her very, you know,
[12:05]question mark, question mark relationship with Nana,
[12:08]and how that might have affected her upbringing,
[12:11]and the things you inherit essentially
[12:14]that can change your mental makeup.
[12:16]Tell me a little more about your thoughts
[12:19]on what's happened, like what actually happened
[12:22]in the family and how that translated into how perhaps
[12:25]their emotional makeup evolved over time.
[12:29]Yeah, I mean, I think if I can just sort of,
[12:31]just set off by saying, I think, I mean,
[12:33]one of the main reasons for writing this book
[12:35]is because I find it very tiresome and very annoying
[12:40]when women like Platt and Sexen are written off
[12:42]as these crazy poets, you know,
[12:44]it's this very, very lazy stereotype
[12:48]about women writers, and they're just written off
[12:50]these mad poets and they were always going to kill themselves.
[12:53]And it's, you know, almost becomes a joke.
[12:55]And I just wanted to explore and try to perhaps argue
[12:59]that there's a bit more going on here, you know?
[13:02]First of all, let's blast that useless
[13:04]and quite annoying stereotype out of the water
[13:07]because it's not helpful, it's sexist,
[13:10]it's misogynistic, we don't need it in our lives.
[13:13]And think about what was actually going on in their lives
[13:15]and try to look for a more multidimensional explanation.
[13:19]This, of course, there might well have been
[13:21]psychological reasons, maybe for all I know,
[13:23]even physiological reasons why some people
[13:26]are more prone to depression than others,
[13:28]but also there are environmental reasons too.
[13:31]And I think when you look at their offerings,
[13:34]you can certainly see elements that took place there
[13:37]that would have created trauma in both of their lives,
[13:41]you know, for Platt, the loss of her father,
[13:44]for Amsexen potentially being sexually abused by her father
[13:48]although this is not confirmed
[13:49]and we have to be quite careful about that.
[13:52]But certainly the way that Sexton wrote about it
[13:55]and spoke about it in therapy,
[13:56]there's certainly a big question mark over that.
[13:59]And Sexton's an emotionally distant mother as well.
[14:03]So, you know, she was constantly wanting her mother's love
[14:06]and never quite getting it and getting disapproval instead.
[14:10]In contrast, we have Platt who had, you know,
[14:12]in her own words, quite suffocating mother
[14:14]who didn't let her breathe,
[14:16]it was, you know, she shared a bedroom with her
[14:18]until she was, you know, in her late teens, early 20s.
[14:21]So, you know, they had these perhaps unusual elements
[14:25]in their formative years that I think would certainly
[14:29]have influenced their future behavior,
[14:32]perhaps their future mindset and how they were able
[14:36]to negotiate their own way through the world as well.
[14:39]Hello, how you joke, you were like,
[14:41]maybe they joked at one of these Martini afternoons
[14:44]about the fact that they each got the wrong mother
[14:46]for the kind that they needed for their personalities.
[14:50]And like, perhaps they should have sought work done.
[14:54]I mean, I know that, yeah, I mean,
[14:57]I guess speculative like that isn't the best thing to do,
[14:59]but it's so time you do that.
[15:01]They have such great senses of humor.
[15:03]And I'm sure if they moaned about them more,
[15:06]they were like, oh, you should have them like,
[15:07]and I'll have yours.
[15:08]You mean, you could just picture that conversation,
[15:11]especially after the third Martini.
[15:14]The thing that I really loved in this book
[15:16]won't many things, but that you clearly have had
[15:20]in your hands these artifacts of the women, right?
[15:22]Like the address books and even the image of the Ann Sexton's
[15:28]lock of baby hair on like a pink tissue carefully wrapped
[15:32]and Sylvia Platt's like longer ponytail or something.
[15:36]I mean, it almost like gave me the chills thinking
[15:38]that you must be, you know, you today looking at these items.
[15:43]Like tell me what that feels like
[15:44]and obviously wrote about it really powerfully,
[15:47]but what did it feel like for you having to remember
[15:51]that these are not just fictitious people?
[15:53]These are actual real living people multidimensional
[15:56]with like belongings and tell me,
[15:58]just tell me a little bit about that.
[16:00]Yeah, I mean, I never have here when I'm in an archive.
[16:04]And I know handle these possessions
[16:09]and to handle manuscripts and personal artifacts.
[16:14]And as you say, hair, typewriters, you know,
[16:19]pressing the keys, the Ann Sexton pressed and so it's a very
[16:25]evocative experience.
[16:26]It's a very inner kind of in sociology language.
[16:29]We would use the word spectral or ghostly.
[16:31]It's a very ghostly experience and I feel, you know,
[16:36]a kind of a sense of them being there in some way.
[16:40]Because, you know, what are we, we are made up of the things
[16:44]that we own, the things that we are hair, things.
[16:46]You know, it's like having a part of them there with you.
[16:48]And I've just written a short piece actually
[16:51]that we'll be coming out in America in a couple of months
[16:53]about combining that with audio as well.
[16:56]So not only, you know, having their hair
[16:59]and having their handwriting and their address books,
[17:01]but listening to them.
[17:03]And it's like they're over your shoulder, you know,
[17:05]you can almost feel the breathing on you.
[17:07]And so it's, it's an experience that, that I both love
[17:12]in terms of just, it's very immersive,
[17:15]but also I think it really humanizes them as well.
[17:19]You know, we have a tendency to mythologize these women
[17:23]because they were so brilliant and they were so good
[17:26]at what they did and they almost seem super human.
[17:29]But then you see a draft of an early poem
[17:33]where there's really clunky sentences
[17:35]and it really doesn't work.
[17:36]Anything I think they were actually human after, really bad.
[17:41]I mean, they were brilliant and it ended up brilliant.
[17:43]But, you know, they didn't always get it right.
[17:46]And so that kind of, I love that human aspect of them as well.
[17:50]And, you know, you can have a flat manuscript
[17:53]and it's got a coffee ring encrusted, you know,
[17:57]or and so many of Antsex's purpose have cigarette burns
[18:01]in them where she's obviously been smoking
[18:03]and the ashes dropped and onto her papers.
[18:06]So it's very, very effective.
[18:08]And Antsex's address book still smells of nicotine,
[18:11]which is also very odd as well.
[18:14]Well, it's like traveling time,
[18:16]traveling back in time, you know, I actually love that.
[18:18]So what is it about their time together
[18:22]that you feel is worth noting?
[18:25]The intersection of actually when they got together
[18:27]and like obviously their disparate careers and lives
[18:31]and the intersection of those are fascinating.
[18:33]But what is it that drew you to these afternoons,
[18:36]for example, like why structure the book in that lens,
[18:39]if you will, or was it a device created in the,
[18:43]how you decided to write the book?
[18:44]And maybe I should ask how you decided to structure
[18:47]the book in general.
[18:48]I think the first thing I wanted to think about
[18:51]with the book was that although it was being called
[18:54]a geobiography, I wanted it to have a particular,
[18:58]I wanted to look at them through a particular lens,
[19:01]which was their rebellion.
[19:02]And the thing that I found particularly fascinating
[19:07]about them and also something quite maddeningly elusive
[19:11]about them is that their lives collided
[19:14]for this really short period of time.
[19:16]So they didn't see that much of each other.
[19:19]I mean, they maybe would have had to say seven, eight,
[19:22]martini afternoons together.
[19:24]It wasn't many and they didn't really spend that much time
[19:28]in each of this company because shortly after meeting
[19:30]Plathuan back to England at the end of 1959.
[19:34]And so they stood in touch by writing to each other.
[19:37]But again, not hugely frequent letters
[19:39]and also quite maddeningly and sexed inside
[19:43]that correspondence is missing.
[19:45]So we only have Plath's letters to sex then.
[19:49]And so what I found fascinating was that this moment
[19:52]in time is collision that happened between their two lives,
[19:56]then kind of sparked off this.
[20:00]pull influence on each other, because initially when they met, if you read Platt's journal,
[20:05]she's so jealous of Sexton, she's furious, you know, she's her waking up at three in the morning,
[20:11]absolutely raging because Sexton's got published in places and she hasn't and Sexton's got a
[20:17]book contract and Platt hasn't. So there's this raging jealousy that then in the poetry workshop,
[20:23]Robert Lowell makes them work together and then obviously something happens there and they become
[20:28]friends and so they start going out for these martini afternoons which I imagine were an absolute
[20:34]rioter. So I imagine they were grateful, accompanied by George Starbook and there's another poet
[20:40]in the workshop and so I really wanted to use those very few very short meetings to kind of
[20:48]meander off through the book. So the book isn't necessarily, it's kind of chronological but it
[20:53]isn't because I didn't want, you know, at this point in 1932, you know, and then I wanted it to be a
[21:00]little bit more interesting in terms of exploring some of those themes. So I tried to structure
[21:05]in a way that would perhaps make sense to people who didn't know too much about their lives,
[21:10]but would also allow me room to use this particular lens of rebellion to explore their lives in
[21:17]terms of all the ways in which they were rebellious, all the ways in which they weren't and when
[21:22]they weren't, why might that be that there were certain things that they were still hanging on to?
[21:27]And so that was the kind of theory behind the structure of the book really, but I just,
[21:32]I just thought that, you know, the idea of drinking martinis in an afternoon in the ritz,
[21:37]I mean some glamorous as well isn't it? I hope you're planning on eventually having some sort of
[21:43]ritz-centered party where everybody drops martinis. Do you know it's possible?
[21:50]Please invite me. I will come across the line.
[21:53]I definitely invited. Yes, I would like to have three martinis though. Okay.
[22:02]Well, so what do you think if they were our age today, these ladies? First of all, do you think
[22:09]they would be on medication? Do you think they would be like, what do you think their lives would be
[22:14]like? What do you think they would have contributed? What do you think? I mean, I would have hoped in terms
[22:20]of mental health they would have received much better, more effective, less barbaric treatment.
[22:29]They were both subjected to really quite traumatic experiences as the chapter on mental illness,
[22:36]explarse, particularly plath with her botched ECT that she received. And Linda Gracexden has
[22:43]written about her mum that she does believe that if her mum had been alive today, she would have
[22:48]been properly medicated, you know, and would have hopefully had a much more comfortable,
[22:53]happier life. So that, you know, you would kind of haunt that in terms of what I mean,
[23:01]it's really interesting to think about. They might have made of things like Twitter.
[23:06]I mean, I think certainly they both probably would have been great at Twitter because they
[23:09]were so good at what he won liners. But, you know, whether they would have blocked or not,
[23:15]I don't know because I mean, it certainly towards the end of plath's life, it looked as if she was
[23:21]going to increasingly be doing, for example, becoming a critic. So she was, you know, she'd got
[23:28]a job on the BBC on a programme called The Critics, where she would be reviewing books and theatre
[23:34]and I guess music and things like that. So it would have been interesting that she might have
[23:38]become a bit of a social commentator herself, you know, so I guess if she had access to the social
[23:44]media, that would have been useful for her. And I don't know, I mean, Sexton, I think,
[23:50]if you're interested in because Sexton was a writer who worked so hard on her drafts, you know,
[23:56]she worked and worked and worked and reworked sometimes 20, 30 times. And I imagine if she was trying
[24:02]to block doing that, she'd be completely exhausted. I mean, it's fascinating. It's fascinating
[24:08]to think how they would offer. I think they'd see a lot of similarities. Some things haven't
[24:12]moved on at all. Have they? Very true. So now, of course, you as a woman have added your own
[24:18]book into this, you know, into the universe of literature written by women about things and
[24:25]you have your own commentary on everything as it's seen through this lens. So where do you go
[24:30]from here? What is next for you? What would you like to see happen with your own career? And like,
[24:37]what's coming up? Are you going to keep delving deep into these women? Did you have another book coming?
[24:42]Will this be a movie? That was a lot of fun. Well, I do have another book coming and I hopefully
[24:49]publish it. We'll be talking about that quite soon. I'm just at the contact stage. I can say
[24:54]it's not about path or sex done. So I'm moving away from those two lovely letters for a little
[25:01]while, although they'll always be part of my life. So yeah, that that'll be another book. And
[25:06]then kind of around this book, I'm writing sort of shorter pieces that will be coming out. So
[25:12]pieces about working with their audio and also a piece about choosing photographs of the book,
[25:19]because I think photographs are so important. And I love writing about photography. And I spent
[25:26]quite a lot of time deciding which photograph should go into the book. So writing a piece about that.
[25:33]And so there's lots of little things that will be going on around the book that are not in the
[25:39]book, but will be also about the process of putting the book together as well. And then it will be
[25:44]yeah, straight into, straight into the next book, which of course is going to be really difficult
[25:49]with, because we're still kind of in lockdown in the UK. So not no international travels
[25:53]allowed. And I could do with being in some archives as well. So trying to, it's interesting trying to
[25:59]negotiate research when you can't leave your house. That sounds great. I can't wait to hear what your
[26:07]next project is. And by the way, the book trailer that you have for this book with the pictures,
[26:12]I don't know if you picked those pictures for the trailer, but those were awesome. I just
[26:16]loved it. I mean, it was great. Yeah, they're the pictures that are in the books. Okay, great.
[26:22]Interesting. Love it. Well, what advice would you have for aspiring authors? I think it
[26:28]takes, and I think it comes across it in through writing as well. I think it takes a lot of
[26:34]assistance. It takes a lot of patience. It takes a lot of managing your own emotions, I think,
[26:43]because writing is such a personal thing. And sometimes things can feel quite devastatingly personal
[26:50]when they're not. So, you know, getting rejections and things like that are really difficult to
[26:56]manage. And somehow, I don't know how somehow you have to hang on to self-belief even in the
[27:04]face of really terrible times. You have to believe that you can carry on doing it. And I think
[27:10]a big difference for me was, I'd previously published three books, but the big difference for me
[27:17]with this book is that I was really, really lucky to get an agent and a really good agent who we
[27:25]get each other with completely on the same page. We have, you know, the same interests. And although
[27:30]that may not be that relevant, it makes working together really enjoyable. So, and I think having an
[27:36]agent is a good idea for an aspiring writer if you can get one just because you have that extra
[27:43]support and you feel much less alone as well when you have an agent. And the thing I do is try to
[27:50]connect with other writers too, particularly if you get a bad review or if you get a rejection
[27:58]because everybody's been there. And it's just quite nice to be able to share that. And then
[28:03]also be able to share the really good news and the exciting news. And just, you know, because it's
[28:09]very solitary. And I think that's the biggest challenge for me as a writer is just how isolated you
[28:15]can be. And, you know, because it's something that you mainly do by yourself. And I also live by
[28:20]myself as well. So, I, you know, I'm kind of quite keen to network and get to know the writers.
[28:27]But it is as path and sex don't write about so eloquence about persistence.
[28:32]Wow. Well, Gail, thank you so much. I'm so impressed by just how great a researcher and author
[28:41]and how you bring these women so to life. And what I enjoy it is to read about them and learn more
[28:49]and really view them now as like, whole, I just feel like I know them much better. And I've already
[28:56]been very interested in so we've played over the years and felt like I knew enough, which I
[29:00]obviously did not. So I just, my hat's off to you. So thank you so much. Well, thank you. And hopefully
[29:10]I can connect you to lots of other authors because I'm always talking to authors and
[29:14]would love to put you in touch with whoever. So, yes. Okay, perhaps at the rest.
[29:21]So much. All right. Well, thanks so much for all your time.
[29:29]Thank you, Slumberkin's for sponsoring today's episode. Again, use code Zibi 10 to get 10% off your
[29:37]first purchase. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[29:41]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and ad bombs don't have time to read books.
[29:46]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet
[29:51]lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for
[29:56]the Sound Editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing
[30:00]This fantastic intro and now trim music.