Emma Gannon, OLIVE

[1:26]Zibby Owens: But at that time, I was like going to the guy at Joe and the Juice behind the counter asking him to vote for me and anyone I could. So now I'm coming to all of you to ask you to please vote for moms don't have time to read books to win the People's Choice Webby Award for Best Live Podcast. If you go to vote.webbyawards.com, again, that's vote. Webby, W E B B Y, webbyawards.com. And then go to the little magnifying glass search thing on the upper right. All you have to type in is search my name or entry and just type in moms and it will come up. And then you can click on the best live podcast recording nominee and vote for me. Also, by the way, I won honoree for best influencer, which is crazy. Anyway, thank you for voting. I really, really would appreciate it. I would love to win the People's Voice Award, especially after trying so hard and failing two years ago. So if you could just take a few minutes and vote, I would be so grateful. You could email me after if you want at infosibbyowens dot com. I will say thank you to you via email myself because I'm so grateful. So email me if you've done it, post about it. I'm just, I would be so grateful. Thank you. Hi, this is Zoe Owens and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. I loved talking to Emma Gannon about her book Olive. Emma is first and foremost a writer. She began life as a social media editor at Conde Nast before going freelance and writing for The Guardian and Elle and being a columnist for The Telegraph and The Sunday Times. She's the author of How to Get Out of Your Own Way and The Multi hyphen Work Less, Create More, and Design a Life that Works for You. Her Webby nominated podcast, Ctrl plus Alt plus Delete, is a nontraditional careers podcast founded in 2016 and gives an insight into people who have looked at their interests to shape the world they do. By the way, when it says her Webby nominated podcast, as you're listening to this, my podcast is nominated for a Webby award. So if you wouldn't mind going to the Webby award website and voting for moms don't have time to read books, that would be amazing. Thank you for doing that. Anyway, onto her bio again. Her podcast, Ctrl plus Alt plus Delete has had nearly 8,000,000 downloads with guests including Elizabeth Gilbert, Ava DuVernay, Glennon Doyle, and Gillian Anderson. Both people and brands such as Google Pixel, Amnesty, Princess Trust, and Sainsbury's look to Emma as a curator of people and ideas. Her various platforms have become a window into her multi hyphenate lifestyle. She also writes a weekly newsletter called The Hyphen that explores ideas that have got her thinking in new ways and a book club, The Hyphen Book Club. Emma has 52,000 followers on Instagram and 52,000 followers on Twitter. She has been included on the Forbes 30 under 30 list in media, and we had the best time talking. Welcome, Emma. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Olive and all the great stuff that you do. Thank you so much. I love your podcast. I listen to it religiously, so very happy to be here. Yay. I love your podcast. I was just listening to the one about you being a recovering people pleaser, and I was like, how do you become a recovering people pleaser? So what like, why don't we start there? What is your secret? Because I feel like I have not recovered from that affliction as yet.

[5:19]Emma Gannon: I think I said recovering because I feel myself slipping back into my old ways very easily, so I'm not quite over the line. But it's good. It's like an out of body experience now because once you read all the self help books, you can kind of call yourself out a bit more. So yeah, I'm getting there. It's hard, but people pleasing is a thing. Like my tendency is to say yes. I just I read something. I'm like, yeah, I wanna do that. And then I think, oh god, you that's cutting into all your writing time and blah blah blah. So yeah.

[5:51]Zibby Owens: Yes. Well, you had you had you were recommending a book on your podcast. I think it was called, like, People Please or Please Know or something. What was it called? Please Know? Anyway Oh, it's called Please Yourself, which Yeah. I really

[6:03]Emma Gannon: because it's quite empowering actually to be like, do you know what? I'm gonna go in the garden and eat some ice cream and not talk to anyone and please myself.

[6:10]Zibby Owens: Wow. Well, I wouldn't mind talking to someone, but if they could be in the garden with some coffee or something, that would be a please myself moment. Well, anyway, your podcast, control alt delete, is so hugely successful. And I was almost surprised it was billed as a business podcast because I feel like it's so much about life. I mean, I I guess you have to put it in one category. And obviously, business ties into everything. Tell me I wanna go back to your book, but now I'm so excited about your podcast. Tell me about how you mark like, how you framed it and how I know you've had, 8,000,000 downloads and then crazy. So tell me a little more about the podcast.

[6:46]Emma Gannon: Yeah. That's a really good point because I wouldn't say it's business y, but it's in the careers section, which I kind of feel like automatically falls into the iTunes or Apple Podcast business bit. But yeah, it's really interesting because I started it five years ago and a lot has happened in five years in terms of the media landscape. And I feel like the podcast has evolved with me, which is really nice because it feels like my little home. And as a fellow podcaster, you'll understand that it's such an intimate, lovely space. I've never been into YouTube. I've never been into like presenting or video stuff. I just love that it's my voice and it's my thoughts and it's just, you know, accompanying someone on a walk somewhere or in the bath. And it started off as careers, like social media careers, basically digital careers, new unconventional paths that we're taking. It slowly but surely turned into a mental health podcast because I'm realising that we're all just losing our minds basically at work. And even, you know, in the creative space, like creativity comes with its own challenges. We're so hard on ourselves that we beat ourselves up all the time. So it's kind of morphed into this careers y well-being creative podcast. Well, it's super cool. And Yeah. It's just amazing. And this is your first novel. You obvious you have written two other books, Sabotage

[8:07]Zibby Owens: and The Multi Hyphen Life, which I feel like describes everyone I currently work with or am or exist today. You're like always just a little bit ahead of the curve, I feel like, with what your topics are. Take me through writing those two books and how we have arrived here at Olive. Thank you. Yeah. There's something to be said for being too early with certain things.

[8:30]Emma Gannon: And then someone comes along and writes the same book and I'm like, hello? But it's fine. Yeah, with The Multi Hyphen Life, I feel like that has actually taken on a new life of its own during this strange COVID time we're in, because I believe that we can't all be famous musicians and artists. Like, it's hard. It's hard to live that happily ever after kind of career, dream career. And it's not even like that for me. And I make my living through writing books. Like it's ups and downs and you have imposter syndrome because maybe one month is good, the next isn't. And I feel like we're just all trying to make it work as best we can. And we're all just trying to make our days slightly better. It's not about always being in the Sunday Times bestseller list, but just how do we feel successful on a daily basis? So that book I still love and am proud of. And then with Sabotage, I felt like The Multi Hyphen Life was about the tools we need to succeed or make our lives better. But then I didn't really talk about our brains and our mental health in that book. It was more about Skillshare and YouTube and podcasts and how do we build our brand using internet tools. Like it was very logistical and with sabotage it was, okay, if you've got all the tools under the sun, but you still can't get started with your creative project, it's probably not that you don't have, you know, the time or money or resource. It's probably that you're getting on your own way in some other way. So those books kind of go together. And then, the pivot came into fiction. So I felt like I wrote The Multi Hyphen Life so that no one would pigeonhole me. I was like, if I write a book about being a multi hyphenate, surely no one will, you know, make me into this like one thing. Like that book was about being multiple things. But what was interesting is I kind of did become pigeonholed as

[10:25]Zibby Owens: the side hustle woman. And you just cannot win. You cannot win. It's like impossible. And anyway, keep going. Yes. But I feel like, I don't know if it's more

[10:35]Emma Gannon: of a gendered thing. Like women need to be just one thing because we're not. Like, I don't know one woman who is just one singular thing in their life. Like they'll one minute be a parent and then they'll be doing something else on the side and then something else and something else. And we're so multifaceted and so are men, but I feel like men aren't questioned as much in this space. Like they just get to go and do what they want and experiment. Whereas if you're a woman experimenting with lots of different things, people are like confused by you. So yeah, I basically was like, I'm going to do fiction now. And people were surprised. I don't know why you're allowed to try new things, but they were.

[11:17]Zibby Owens: I interviewed an author recently who switched genres, and she spent like a lot of time talking about the fact that this big deal that she had switched genres. And I'm like, I know this all feels like a big deal to you, but, like, as a reader and and nobody else is keeping as close tabs. You know how you feel like, you know, when, like, you're at a seventh grade dance and you think, like, everyone is staring at, like, you and your sweater that your mom made you wear. I don't know. Maybe maybe that was me. Anyway, but, you know, you're allowed to try whatever you want. Like, if you're creative and you love to write, like, switch genres. Try fiction, nonfiction. Like, great. I I don't know. Like, who else is gonna do it? Like, we need a new person to be now a debut novelist. You can't be the same amazing writer. Anyway, I don't know. This is just I'll get off my soapbox. No. I I completely agree. I feel like my whole thing is try whatever you want and also at any age. There is no cap to reinventing ourselves and rebranding ourselves. Like it's all exciting.

[12:15]Emma Gannon: You can try new things.

[12:17]Zibby Owens: I completely agree. So you started fiction. Had you ever wanted to do fiction before or was this a new thing that you're like, I fancy a try at fiction and how

[12:28]Emma Gannon: did it come about? It was a whole thing in terms of, I think that when we really truly want something deep down, it's quite terrifying and we don't tell anyone and we don't really admit it. And for me, that was fiction. And I kind of palmed it off as like something that maybe I'd do one day, but truly deep down, I was too scared to try it. It was so terrifying to me. And my friends and family were so lovely about the fact that I think they knew that I wanted to do it and they keep buying me presents. Like my mum, like five years ago bought me this novel writing workshop class, like online thing. And I was like, oh, this is nice. Like people around me are noticing that I keep saying I want to try it, but I really was terrified and I put it off for years. So what happened was when my non fiction career was kind of tootling along and things were fine and, you know, I had a bit of spare time through the kind of success of that side of things. I took myself off and just started doing it in secret. I just, it was a really scary thing. I felt so exposed. And also I know all authors will say this, but when your book goes out on submission and you're basically waiting for the entire publishing industry to either laugh in your face or say, 'Okay, this is good enough'. I literally lay on the sofa for like a week under a blanket. I was just, I felt like my my skin had been peeled off. Like, I felt awful. So thank God.

[13:57]Zibby Owens: Well, there were so many things that I loved about Olive. But the one thing that has stayed with me to your point about trying new things in writing is the one quote where wait, hold on. I have to find it. About how many tweets you can have and that if you write enough tweets, they would actually be converted into books. That there's this new app. Wait. I can't even find the correct quote. Well, anyway, just to summarize that Olive realized through her friend that if you counted up the word count of all the tweets you've done, you could convert it in an app to how many books you could have written and she could have written like, I don't know, 15 books and one of the guys could have written two books. And did you Is that an actual app? No, that isn't. I mean, might be, but Did you I always start that app?

[14:38]Emma Gannon: I mean, I think it might exist. I don't know. But I thought it would be quite an interesting, really simple tool actually. If you just type in how many characters you've literally written, it could work out how many. And I did think that when I looked at my Twitter page one day, and I've been on there for about twelve years or something ridiculous, and I looked at how many tweets I'd sent and it was like a thousand. And I thought, that is books. We've all written books. But I always thought that about my blog, because my first book deal came from a blog and essentially I basically turned the blog into a book. So it's all words and it all can end up hopefully somewhere.

[15:17]Zibby Owens: I tried at one point. I was doing so many, like, little mini essays type things on Instagram, particularly over the summer during the pandemic. And I was like, I'm gonna lose all these. I should, like, copy and paste them into at least one document just to save it, like, for my own sanity to see what that was like back then. And I was like, oh my gosh. It's like 20,000 words of Instagram posts. Like, it's I'm almost up to a book just on Instagram alone in, a couple months. So, yeah, it's amazing how we're afraid to do, like, big projects alone and yet you can, like, put little things out with, like, no hesitation and it's totally bad. Weird, isn't it? So weird. We're all so weird. Yeah. And and hearing about other people's process, I love hearing that. I remember Jesse Burton once saying she wrote The Minitrist about how she used to

[16:00]Emma Gannon: email herself things. And the same with Christie Tate, who wrote Group and also with Abigail Dean, who you've also interviewed with Girl Yes, yes. She said she used to just kind of write random little bits. And I find that so relaxing. Like that thought is so comforting to me because I think we just think about novelists writing into a Word document and it all being perfect, but it's not. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[18:52]Zibby Owens: Yeah. So that's good. And then the one other fact and figure that I took from your book, and then we can talk about the plot and everything else that's important. But Jacob says at one point, Olive's ex boyfriend, did you know six minutes of reading can help reduce stress levels by up to 60%? That's 68% better than listening to music, a 100% better than drinking tea, and 300% better than going for a walk. And she says, Did not know that. Are

[19:17]Emma Gannon: those actual facts or did you also say Those actually are. They are. Okay. Yeah. All right. Because I don't know if you have noticed, but during some really stressful weeks and very anxious months, I have found if I'm reading, I feel my whole body change. It's just a physical reaction reading. Some people just think it's like conjuring up thoughts in your head, but it has a physical reaction and I just feel so good after reading.

[19:44]Zibby Owens: Also because it's like we're not scrolling and scrolling makes you so tetchy. And I think just the act of sitting and not moving for a while is very good. I think you still get that even if you're moving and there's an audiobook or something. Like, I think it's the getting into the story and all of a sudden out of yourself that is a complete reset. And I think, yeah, five minutes, six minutes, like, it doesn't take long to jump into anyone else's head. Do you know what mean? Like, as long as you're in there for a minute waiting through their muck or their ideas or stories or whatever, how can you not just, like, come back then into your your life?

[20:19]Emma Gannon: I don't know. It's like this bizarre time travel or, like, you know, Freaky Friday type thing that we do all the time with books. But anyway. But it's like the whole premise of your podcast, I'm guessing. I know. It's like life is hectic and you have a lot of people relying on you and yet you can still escape.

[20:36]Zibby Owens: Yeah. You need to escape sometimes. Faster in a book than in a bath. Right? I mean, I think so. Okay. So Olive, the main issue Olive is having is whether or not to have kids or not not even really whether or not, but she kind of doesn't want kids. And is that okay in society? And should she change her mind? And you do it so interestingly with like lists and texts and quotes, and it's sort of like a multi format approach to the inside of someone's mind trying to wrestle with this really important big question, especially as her friends all go off and have kids or do IVF or do all these things. And you have this one moment in the bathroom where the two girls are doing their pregnancy tests side by side in different stalls and, like, have the same result but very different emotions related to that result. Tell me about centering this book around that question.

[21:23]Emma Gannon: I love that you picked out those little scenes because it was so fun to write. And I wanted to talk about this theme and it's a big theme and it's meaty and it's emotional. So I wanted to do it with a bit of lightness and a bit of humor because it's a very heavy thing for a lot of women. And I guess I need to make the distinction that I really wanted to write about a character who was child free by choice, who very much was leading the narrative of her own story. Whereas I know a lot of women who have desperately wanted that and it hasn't worked out. So I think that, yeah, there's like a nuance to that discussion. But with Olive, she knows she doesn't want children. She's definitely one of those people that just thinks it's like a 70% no, so therefore I should probably not because it's a big old decision and life commitment. But I think her problem is that we start the book with her ending a relationship with someone she's been with for nearly ten years who does want to have kids. And they hadn't really discussed it before then because they were in their twenties, they never really spoke about it. I think Olive was brushing it under the carpet and suddenly she's in her thirties and she's got her partner saying, right, let's do it. So I think even though she knows she doesn't want them, I think she's just questioning herself because she's thrown away. Well, not thrown away, but she's said goodbye to a massive chunk of her life. And I think most people do doubt their decisions. I think we all, it's such a human thing to just be like, have I done the right thing here? So the book is basically her going on this journey of convincing herself that she's made the right decision ultimately.

[22:54]Zibby Owens: I mean, thing about that decision versus other decisions that are more private, right? Like, should I go here for the weekend or should I do that? You know, should I take my kid here? I don't know. Whatever. A decision like this, I feel like society, as you point out in your book by the onslaught of comments. Right? You know, when is the time or what do you mean or are you guys trying? You know, all these societal inputs that that you get when you're a woman of a certain age and you're in a relationship or or not or whatever. But without women having kids, essentially, like, I I feel like there's this evolutionary thing, like, hardwired into people. Because if we didn't all encourage each other to have kids, our whole you know, we would all extinguish ourselves as, a species. So I feel like some of it is it's like this deep rooted thing that I don't know if people are even conscious that they're doing, but it's like, everybody's gotta get on this train. Like, we've all gotta get on the train even though it hurts and it's hard and whatever because, like, without us, then who? Yeah. But that's Yeah. That's heavy for each individual woman to have to carry.

[23:57]Emma Gannon: It's true. And what was interesting is when I interviewed the real women to kind of inspire the book, because I didn't want it be just me and my opinions of, you know, Olive is like an amalgamation of a bit of me, but a bit of all these women I spoke to who are child free. And a lot of the women were concerned about like the planet and overpopulation. And I was like, oh my God, that's so interesting because I don't know if I want children, but I definitely didn't factor in that. Like maybe, I don't know, maybe that is a big, big thing. But like, for me, it's just, oh, I don't think it fits into my lifestyle. But for some people they're like, oh, you know, we're overpopulated and I don't want to add to that. And I was like, this is such an interesting topic because every woman had so many different reasons.

[24:43]Zibby Owens: And we don't I don't think we talk about it very much. It's so true. When I was reading Olive's list, like she does a pros and cons list for having kids at one point. And all the cons of like what her life could be like without kids, I was reading. I was like, oh, that sounds so nice. Like, you know, she's like, I can go, you know, I can go for tea. I can see my friends or I could do this. And I was like, yeah. That is true, isn't it? I don't know. She makes a good case for the cons.

[25:08]Emma Gannon: But I think that's the interesting thing is like all the women are kind of triggered and jealous of each other at different times or at least maybe jealous is too strong a word, but I think sometimes Olive does look at her friends and thinks, oh, having a kid looks really lovely. Like she'll see tender moments between her friend and the baby and think that's the meaning of life. That is love. That is what we should all want. And yet Olive doesn't, but she still longs for that sort of part of her life. And it's not just black and white. It's not, oh, I don't want that, so I'll never long for it. And then her friends with kids sometimes look at Olive and think, oh god, she's like so lucky.

[25:47]Zibby Owens: And so they kind of like no one life almost has it all, I suppose. I also the character Dorothy, is that the elderly next door neighbor? Is that her name, Dorothy? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I thought when you introduced Dorothy as this single elderly lady living next door who every so often sort of totters over and and says hello and everything. At first, I thought, okay. She's using this to show, like, what a woman who doesn't have kids but gets older or, like, is this some sort of commentary? And then the way you kind of wrapped it all up at the end sort of threw that on its head. Like, you can have a legacy. It does not have to be through kids. Like, you can have a zillion friends and make a huge impact, and kids are just one way. So I was just so interested in sort of seeing how that relationship developed throughout the book and what you were what your messaging was or what your what her role was in your thought process in writing and putting her into the story. Yes.

[26:44]Emma Gannon: I tried not to be too obvious with like planting people in just to say like, set an agenda and then leave, but I feel like Dorothy was that person. She basically I think what was interesting is when I turned 30, I got a lot of people asking me if I wanted to have children. And I was always sort of like, oh, I'm not sure. And a lot of people would say to me, and I was always baffled by this, but they would say, oh, you know, if I said I didn't, like, because I changed my mind with what I say. Sometimes I say maybe, and sometimes I say no. And people were like, oh, but aren't you worried you'll be lonely when you're older? And that is a really valid thing to say, but I'd never really thought of that. And so I really wanted to show with Dorothy that she's this older woman. She lives on her own. Her husband's died. She's quite happy, but she does have a kid. But he moved away years ago and lives in Australia and they never really talk. And I just wanted to show that having a kid doesn't mean you have this like best friend for life. And some people don't get on with their kids. Sometimes it's really difficult. Sometimes people move away.

[27:48]Zibby Owens: And so I think Dorothy was an important character for Olive to see that actually there is no one size fits all and life just takes on its own different path for each of us, I think. Wouldn't it be so neat if there was a way to sort of fast forward and see what it would be like? So you could you could say like, well, I was going to have a child, but this particular, you know, but I went to blah blah blah, and I could see forward and he was gonna be horrendous and abusive or he was gonna be like, you know, a terrorist or he was anyway, so I've decided I'm not gonna have him. Everybody would be Oh, okay. You know what mean? Oh my God, imagine. I mean, I know you interviewed Ashley Audrain recently, Yes, the author yes. Of The And I love The Push because

[28:30]Emma Gannon: I think that really taps into a primal fear of, I wanna have a kid, but like, is it gonna be nice? Because I kind of wanna know in advance. But it's funny because like the Instagram

[28:42]Zibby Owens: mom thing, I feel like has fed us this formula of like, you're gonna have a cute kid and then you're gonna dress it in some dungarees and then it's gonna be really well behaved and then life is gonna be great. And I just think, God, that's kind of a scary marketing thing. Like there's lots of ways that isn't gonna go just kind of one, two, three step program, you know? That's not even how that person's life is. I mean, that's that picture of that second and then that kid is going to, like, go to the bat. I mean, it's, you know, that's such a fleeting moment and it's not the whole picture. Well, it's too bad. See, if I were a novelist, which I'm not, but, like, I would be like, oh, I should write a novel about, you know, this machine where you could fast forward. You could, like and how would that change society if you would you then not have the anyway, whatever. Anyway. Oh my god. I'm into that. I'm into that. I read that. Would be very cool. Alright. Well, any novelist, feel free to steal my idea. So what what was your process like when you were writing this book? Where did you write it? Like, what was the how long did it take once you finally got going? And would you do another novel?

[29:44]Emma Gannon: So the process was when I look back, I don't know if I've got rose tinted glasses on because it was hard. But the way I see it is that it kind of was one of those ideas that just came out and I didn't do a lot of planning. I just, in my head kind of knew what I was trying to do and then just went for it because I'd never done this before. I'm not trained. I haven't done like an MA. I'm very much, I look at people who have done all these degrees and I'm like, oh my God, that's not me, but that doesn't mean I can't give it a go, but I don't know what I'm doing. So it was very much just kind of navigating through that sort of darkness of not knowing. And I guess when I sold it to HarperCollins, they loved it, but they kind of, we had to do then more work on it. And I was so happy to work with a fantastic editor. So yeah, I feel like it's important to say that because you don't do this first draft that's shiny and done, and then it goes and gets printed. Like that was a lot of drafts, a lot of drafts. But I loved the fact that I could do it in private and no one was watching me. No one knew I was doing it. This wasn't a like me putting on Instagram, like my laptop saying, write, I'm writing today. Like there was none of that. It was like, I don't want anyone to know. And I'm writing a second one at the moment because it was part of a two book deal. I've gotta say, found it really hard because it's a psychological thing. Because I have people waiting for me to produce something, I'm a bit blocked. So I need to kind of find a way to make myself feel free again. Because I do think, and I'm not like a big time author, like people who are really well known must have this so much because people are sort of tapping their watch saying,

[31:26]Zibby Owens: come on then, where's your next one? Yeah. And from big deal authors that I've interviewed, they are just as scared, not all, but many admit to being like just as scared that like this time, like, the secret sauce of their creativity is, like, not gonna it's not gonna come out right. Yeah. Like Yeah. Like, nobody ever feels not nobody. Many people don't feel like, oh, I've got this nailed. Like, even if they've written so many books. Like, of course, I'm blanking on which exact authors, but, like, it doesn't go away. It's like every time a good book comes out, it's like, oh, phew. I completely

[31:57]Emma Gannon: relate to that because I do think, and I'm not trying to be woo woo, but I do think there is this like magical sort of dust that has to be sprinkled onto it and you kind of have to have that inspiration wherever it comes from. And during last year in the pandemic, I hardly wrote. I just felt really flat. I just didn't feel like I had this like mojo of me being out in the world and feeling energetic. I just had

[32:21]Zibby Owens: disappeared. And so that is scary and thank God it's coming back. But if you lose that kind of zest or whatever it's called, you're not going to write the book you want to write, I suppose. Speaking of magical dust, I said this to my son yesterday morning. I was so tired. I could barely get out of bed. And I was like, I need to he was like, get up. Get up. And I was like, ugh. I need some, like, magical fairy dust that's like magical wake up dust. Could you sprinkle some on me? And he just looked at me and he goes, you have a thousand books to read. Get up. I was like, you're right. I do. Okay. I'm getting up. I love Yeah. So what advice would you have to aspiring authors?

[33:01]Emma Gannon: My advice would be to spend some time by yourself, go and reflect. If you can, it can even be a walk by a river or going and sitting in the garden. But I think really tune into what you want to write about. I think we're in this world and we've always been with writing that there is an industry with a capital I, who is trying to market things and spin things and sell things. And I do think you have to write the book you want to write. And as much as someone's trying to push you in a certain direction or thinking that you'll be more commercial if you do this, I think you do have to have that magic dust, whatever it is, to be proud of the book you're gonna write. So have conviction in yourself, I think, if you can, to believe that you've got something to say. Love it. Yeah.

[33:47]Zibby Owens: Amazing. And also find a way to trick yourself to doing it and pretending that no one's gonna read it.

[33:52]Emma Gannon: Yes. And also, and I'm guilty of this because I'm sort of being impatient. I'm very impatient as a person, but it will take time, especially with novels. It's kind of a little bit every day. So try not to be too hard on yourself because you're not gonna wake up and write 10,000 words. That's just not how it happens. Some people might. If you're listening, I'm jealous of you. But most people write a couple 100 words a day and then over six months you have something. So yeah, just little steps. This I'm sure not that you actually need help, but I'm trying to write something too and I'm getting in my head so much about it. And so I put in, like, big letters now, like, this is not the draft I'm going to show anyone.

[34:30]Zibby Owens: So I write that at the top and then I find, like, I can actually just write. And then it ends. Oh, that's so good. Anyway, just experiment. I don't know. It's working for me. Like, having, like, two different documents, but still. Anyway okay. Well, it was really great getting to know you. I'd love to meet you in person someday. And thank you for sharing Olive and everything and your fantastic podcast control alt delete. And,

[34:55]Emma Gannon: yeah, stay in touch. Thank you so much. I'd love to as well. And this has been really fun and really exciting that Olive is out in The US. It's something I never thought would happen for a debut novel, so I'm so thrilled. And to be on your podcast, one of the the biggest ones I follow in America, I'm like, wow. So thanks for having me. Aw, thank you.

[35:15]Zibby Owens: Take care. Bye bye. Thanks. Bye.

[35:30]Zibby Owens: and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.