Laura Dave, THE LAST THING HE TOLD ME (Apple Movie)

[1:47]Zibby Owens: This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, moms don't have time to read books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a New Publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. I could not be more proud to announce today's sponsor and why they're sponsoring the podcast. Citizens of Humanity, which you may know as this amazing denim company, decided to do stay safe t shirts. They're available on Monday, May 3, and you can shop them exclusively on the Citizens of Humanity website, citizensofhumanity.com. A 100% of the retail selling price of every t shirt sold supports the Susan Felice Owens program for COVID-nineteen vaccine research at Mount Sinai Health System, which I founded. I am over the moon grateful and excited that Citizens of Humanity is donating their proceeds of their Get Vaxxed shirts which are long sleeved unisex t shirts available in white or black and the retail price is $34 Go to Citizens of Humanity. Please go get one of these t shirts. And again every t shirt sold supports vaccine research at Mount Sinai and the program that I founded to honor my late mother-in-law. Thank you Citizens of Humanity for choosing my charity to donate the proceeds to. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I am just so excited. So go check out Citizens of Humanity, the shirt, buy some jeans, go crazy, and, just thank you. Laura Dave is the author of The Last Thing He Told Me, which since I did this interview has been chosen as Reese's book pick for May. Laura is the international bestselling author of several novels including The Last Thing He Told Me and 800 Grapes. Her fiction and essays have been published in the New York Times, ESPN, Red Book, Glamour, and Ladies Home Journal. She is dubbed a wry observer of modern love by USA TODAY and has appeared on CBS's Early Show, Fox News Channel's Fox and Friends and NPR's All Things Considered. Cosmopolitan magazine named her a fun and fearless phenom of the year. Several of her novels have been optioned for film and television with Laura adapting The Last Thing He Told Me for Hello Sunshine and to Apple. Welcome, Laura. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I'm an avid listener, so it's very fun. Yay. Well, you have so many books that all look amazing. Now that I have your latest book, I have to go back and read all these other ones, which I I don't know how I missed and I like hate that I did. And so especially because no one else in the world seems to have missed these books. And they're like, all being made into movies and all such I mean, they look great. And now you've switched gears. You've been called something like the master of the family novel or something amazing like that and wrote a thriller ish type of novel. So tell me about switching gears and then I wanna go back and hear how you started writing to begin with. Well, for this book, for the for the last thing he told me, I actually started working on it in 2012.

[5:17]Laura Dave: So it's been a long time coming. And I was really interested. I love true crime. I've always loved thrillers in general. That sort of especially, you know, on the other end of the pandemic, I feel like that was a lot of comfort food to me. I had a lot of Nora Ephron movie viewing and a lot of thrillers on my But I wanted to write a thriller that was rooted in hope, which sounds at odds with what the genre is. But I wanted to see, you know, Gloria Steinem has this quote that I love about watching a woman become the hero of her own life. And I started imagining a woman who is presented with a version of her husband that seems entirely paradoxical to who she knew her husband to be. And while this was happening, I had for years and years before that been very interested in Enron and trying to retell the story of a financial scandal through the point of view of a wife who really believes her husband to be innocent. Not unlike how Linda Lay went on the Today show when that all broke and said, you know, my husband's done nothing wrong. And I would never, you know, speak to Linda Lay's actual mind frame or what she what she thinks or thought about her marriage. But for the purposes of this story, I wanted a wife who believes that, who believes her husband's done nothing wrong despite all the mounting evidence to the contrary. And in that juxtaposition, Hannah Hall was born and the last thing he told me was born. And then it has had many, many iterations over the last eight years, the largest of which happened shortly after I had my son when I realized that this was in the most primal sense, the story of someone becoming a mother. And her hero's journey was gonna wrap entirely around becoming a mother to this this girl, to her stepdaughter who did not have one. Wow.

[7:06]Zibby Owens: Well, when I was 16, I was sort of dealing with the my parents dating type of it's always great when your parents are dating, but particularly in high school when you're like trying to figure your own stuff out. Right? So I really kind of empathized with the daughter who was, you know, up listening to like beautiful Carol King and like doing her own thing and having to deal with this perhaps not so welcome stepmother into her life. Yes. And then you're thrust together. And so I I don't know. I viewed it from I could view it from both point of views, which was very interesting. I can imagine that too. Like, you know, you're like, I'm the woman supposed to be having a date on a Saturday night, not you. Like, what's happening? You know? Yeah. Plus the fact my well, you know what? I'm not even gonna go there. I'm gonna talk about my parents' dating life, but I feel like they would not be happy about that. So I'll move on. So tell me about the stepdaughter, step parent relationship as the central piece. What how did you come up with that or what was that

[8:03]Laura Dave: rooted in? So I've always been really interested in this idea of found families and the way that sometimes our family becomes people that aren't our blood families necessarily. And also, over the last several years, I've had so many friends become moms in ways that aren't the traditional, you know, root of they get pregnant, they have a child. And I sort of wanted to honor all the different ways we find our journey toward family. So that was one of the motivations for Bailey and Hannah's relationship starting off as, you know, a new stepmom to her new stepdaughter. Hannah arrives in Sausalito shortly before the events of this book begin. And Bailey, who is 16 and good at it, isn't particularly interested in her new stepmom and probably would have remained uninterested in her if her father's scandal hadn't blown up and he disappears, leaving the two of them together to figure out where he was and sort of pick up the pieces of where they're supposed to go next. And so while I was spending time with them, it allowed me to, in a microcosm, examine how you go from strangers in a way to something much closer. So something much akin to, you know, forever family. And it sort of was an it was a really natural exploration. I have a lot of empathy for both of them for walking in and what you share together is a common person, someone you both love deeply. But that doesn't necessarily translate into you getting along as well as each of you might get along with that common person. And so I wanted no one to be bad here, everyone to be coming at it from a place of just trying to navigate this new relationship while managing to have some self preservation of what they think they need. So, you know, that's sort of where we started. And I spent a lot of times talking with women who found themselves in that such newly in that situation, long held in that situation. And it was really interesting. And it and I think also well, I hope, you know, I don't wanna ruin anything that happens in the book, but I feel like their journey toward each other is one that, you know, I didn't wanna be linear. I wanted to mirror more how it happens, which is you move together, you move apart, you move together until sort of the ultimate way that they learn they can trust each other. Wow.

[10:35]Zibby Owens: And of course, it never is linear. Right? Yes. I mean, that's not how any relationships are. Certainly not complicated ones. Exactly. Exactly. And your closest family members. So Yeah.

[10:46]Laura Dave: Exactly.

[10:47]Zibby Owens: Exactly. So why not just scrap this book? You've written other books since this was twelve years ago or whatever. Like why did you go back? In the first several iterations,

[10:56]Laura Dave: there was a character who I was really trying to save. And I couldn't let go of the fact that I couldn't save this person to make the story work. I wanted in terms of, you know, we talk about found families and I well, I wanna hear was sort of the ultimate happy ending. But just like you're just saying now, there's no linear path. There is no happy ending. There's endings and there's beginnings and there's do overs if we're lucky. And I couldn't let go of the story because there was something that felt to me, it felt to me that I hadn't really seen a story before that navigated this terrain in a way that asked the question of what makes us who we are. Like, you know, what we find out quite early on in this book is Hannah's belief that she knew who her husband was. All the details come out different. He was he didn't go to school where he told her he went to school. He didn't grow up where he told her he grew up. And clearly, he's embroiled in some very challenging aspects of his present and his past, which he didn't share with her. But at his core, she believes that she still understands who he is. And at and and at her core, she believes she knows who she is. And I wanted to really figure out a way to look at what makes us who we are, what makes us know someone else, how do we become a witness to someone's life. And I kinda couldn't shake it. So every time I put it away and started working on something else, I found myself wanting to come back to it. And then as I said, you know, shortly after my son was born, my husband, who's also a writer said to me, you know, I was working on another book that was really was sort of focused on a therapist and on divorce and all this stuff, and I wasn't enjoying writing it. And my husband said, like, why don't what if you picked up that book and you made Owen bad? And I'm like, well, in in my infinite kindness of when I'm stuck writing, I was like, that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. And so that's verdict in what I said. But later that day, when I was at the coffee shop in a world where we got to sit at coffee shops, I opened the file again. And whereas that wasn't the right thing to do, or I don't think it was the correct thing to do, it opened up for me what I needed to do to tell the story properly and who I had to kind of sacrifice to tell it properly. And since then, then this final journey of this book has been really joyful in in finding where I wanted to go. The story is And now this is gonna be a movie. Right? Yes. It's gonna be a TV show. It's gonna be a little series with I call it a movie all the time. So even when I'm writing it, we're the middle of writing it. I'm writing it with my husband and Julie Roberts is going play Hannah, which is, you know, a dream come So that's very exciting. So we're in the middle right now of writing all the episodes, and it's supposed to shoot next January. Wow.

[13:48]Zibby Owens: It's exciting. That's really, really awesome. It's fun. My brother is also a producer and my husband, and he did Ben Is Back with Julia Roberts. You're kidding. Yeah. Oh, I love that movie. Oh, good, right? It's so good. The son in that is also, I mean, so so good. Don't don't tell me his name. I know. I can't I was trying to remember it too. This is terrible because he was also in oh gosh. This is just showing my age here. I can't remember anything. It'll come to me before the end of this episode. It'll just pop in. But anyway, well, that is so exciting. So what is it like collaborating with your husband on a creative project like that? Have you done that before for your other things or not? For one of my other books, book called Hello Sunshine,

[14:27]Laura Dave: we wrote the script together. So we're still, you know, that's on hold at the moment because we have to do a rewrite, you know, of that after we finish this. So we collaborated, but it was a we were collaborating in a very different world, you know, where there was leaving the house and childcare. And so this is this time around, it is fun and an honor and also like, oh my gosh, you know, a lot of late night, early morning navigating of trying to write that. I think what's really fun about it is, you know, we got married in 2011. So he's been living with these characters on and off for this whole time anyway. He's read so many drafts of this book. So I feel really lucky that we're doing it and also quite tired because usually we're working from about 08:30 at night to close to midnight after my son goes to sleep. So Wow. Oh my gosh. It's a little crazy. That's a Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[18:20]Zibby Owens: But, well, at least it's something you can do together. Exactly. You know, my husband and I are like, I'm like, should we put something on the calendar? Like, don't know when we're supposed to see each other. I don't know. I'll wave to you. We'll we'll pop into each other Zooms and That's the thing. I mean, with the it's so it's exactly it's so hard to figure out figure out that time. But one thing I highly recommend doing together if you haven't already is have you seen Ted Lasso?

[18:42]Laura Dave: No. Oh my gosh. It's so good. It's like these little like twenty five minutes of joy. It's a show on Apple. And I don't it's Jason Sudeikis, please. Right. No, I saw him win all the awards and stuff. But yes, It is I have so joyful. And it was so funny because I feel like, you know, especially in the middle of all this, like you turn on the TV or you're so tired, like, just forget it. I'm just gonna read a book and go to sleep or whatever, you know, you can't even but that was one show that sort of captivated me during this. And I was like, oh my gosh, you'll watch them in three days. It'll be it'll be really great. Okay. Perfect. So meanwhile, your book Hello Sunshine,

[19:17]Zibby Owens: did you name it Hello Sunshine before Reese's Company?

[19:20]Laura Dave: Like a couple months before. Oh my gosh.

[19:23]Zibby Owens: Then but then she like didn't they option one of your books? I was like reading it three times. I was like, did I get this wrong? Like, is it a coincidence? Tell me about it. It's a total coincidence. So it's actually funny. So I named I named the book Hello Sunshine,

[19:36]Laura Dave: and then between the time I named the book Hello Sunshine and the book came out, that book, she named her company Hello Sunshine, which, you know, is it's funny. So I got a lot of notes when Hello Sunshine when Hello Sunshine came out, like, oh my god, you're doing that with like, was very confusing for people. Because Reese actually optioned my very first novel called London is the Best City in America. And then she just the show that we're doing with Julie Roberts. She's the producer. This new show, the last thing he told me. And she's amazing. Like, she's been, you know, she's so I mean, she's so smart about these I mean, these limited series and how to make them. And so that's been really lucky. But we had a funny moment about the Hello Sunshine of it all. Not involved in that one.

[20:21]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. And so what now that you've put this one to bed finally, what are you did you love writing a thriller so much you want to write another one? Are you going back to your sort of bread and butter? Like what's coming next for you? That's a good question. I just

[20:38]Laura Dave: started a new book that is in this realm of sort of mystery, sort of heightened mystery, you know, not thriller thriller in that like I could never write violence very well. I would have people shaking hands at the end instead. So but it is in that same genre, and it's sort of based on family secrets. So but again, that writing is taking place, you know, sometime between 6AM and 07:30AM. So 6AM and 8AM. So it's slow going but So what are you doing in between? Are you with your son the rest of the time? Like what's happening in those hours? I am with my son. I'm with my son. And he just actually started back at preschool last week. You have you have several kids. Yes? I have four kids. Yeah. It's four kids. I thought I knew it was three or four. I forgot for a second. So and are they back school now? Remind me. Or Today was literally the first day that well, at least three of them. But my little guys went back today after

[21:34]Zibby Owens: multiple quarantines for various reasons, including my own being sick. And then That I remember. A baby's I mean, we've had like everyone we've ever seen even for a second get sick. So they finally went back today and literally my but my son now is home from boarding school. So it's with his friend. So it's like never empty, which which is fine. I love it. But at least the little guys who just walked in in case that now interrupts our podcast. But Yeah. Oh my god. That's so funny. A couple months ago, was gonna like I was like, do you hear him? He's in the next room. But, he just the going back to school even for the three hours is like

[22:08]Laura Dave: Life changing. Lovely. And can I ask how old your son is? You don't have to say. He's four. He's four. So and he loves he loves going to school. And I think also like it's it's it's a double sort of life changing thing. One is you can have a minute to breathe. And then the second thing is the happiness and the social interaction that you see come back into their skin and into their lives. Like, he's like, literally, like he comes out of school and his cheeks are red with like happiness. And, you know, it's that feels like such a blessing. So I feel very lucky. So maybe now I'll have those two and a half hours in addition to try to do something. Yeah. But watch, you're not going to be able to get anything done. Right? You'll

[22:48]Zibby Owens: like do like online grocery shopping or something. Exactly. I'll watch Ted Lasso again. Yeah. You'll watch Ted Lasso again. Oh my gosh. So how did you how did you first get into writing? Just like you're like how did you break into this whole publishing world to begin with? You know, I always wanted to write since

[23:05]Laura Dave: I was eight years old, literally. And I went to college and I was I wrote a collection of stories as my thesis. And then I went to graduate school and I wrote an entire book and I moved back to New York. And I was very proud of myself. I wrote this book, and I published two short stories in literary journals. So I had a couple of agents reaching out, and I'm like, oh, this is anyway, long story short, moved back to New York, I spilled water on my computer, and I lost the entire novel. My whole No. Novel. Yes. So I was like, oh my gosh. But it was sort of this beautiful moment in that I mean, this is very retrospectively looking at it this way. But my father said to me, well, what are you gonna do now? Like, what are to you do? I'm like, I'm going to start again. And like I ended up in that year after graduate school, I had 13 jobs, literally. Again, literally, I sound like Bailey in my book. A lot of it's so funny. I'm like in her mind frame, I've been talking like a teenager. But so I had all wrote for ESPN. I wrote for Glamour. I wrote for all these places. I tutored. You know, to just try to save my mornings for writing. And in some ways, I think the book turned out a lot better than it would have. And also, I just sort of learned that, you know, what makes you a writer is that you sort of sit down and write every day without thinking about what's going to happen or whether you're going get like that became I taught myself that was what was most important to me in that year. So whereas I think I should learn how to save things on my computer properly, it probably ended up, you know, working out. And so I ended up selling that first novel, quitting most of my jobs and writing full time from then on. Wow, that's amazing.

[24:45]Zibby Owens: Well, speaking of that, what is your advice to aspiring authors?

[24:48]Laura Dave: So my advice is that you need to create a habit out of it. Meaning, and it doesn't have to be that you write every single day, but that you have, I think we teach ourselves what matters to us. And if you teach yourself that you have sacred time devoted to this, then it helps you keep doing it. Because some days it's going to work and some days it's not going to work. But if you sit there and you honor that time, something good is going to come out of it. And to that end, I really do believe that what makes you a writer is if you write, not if how often you've been published or where you've been published. So if you're writing, you're doing the job. And if you're not writing, you're not doing the job. And two books that sort of always help me return to doing the job when I'm having trouble, which I recommend to anyone that wants to write, is Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott and On Writing by Stephen King. And Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott especially, like she talks a lot about letting go of expectations and your first draft is for yourself. They actually both talk about that. But I read them, I reread them. It just reminds me that it's a practice and it's to give yourself the freedom to write the story you want to write. I was just gonna grab I she's coming Anne Lamott is coming to my book club. I was gonna show you her new book, which now, of course, is like I don't know where it went. If you wanna come, you should come. It's Zivvy's virtual book club is every other Tuesday, but I'm doing an extra Tuesday

[26:13]Zibby Owens: for her episode. I think it's either April 4 or eleventh. Okay. It's on zivyowens.com. Go to book and you just sign up and you'll get the link. And we always talk about the book for thirty minutes and then the author joins for the next thirty minutes. I'm in. That's great. Okay. That's so fun. I'm excited. Oh my gosh. That's a dream. That's I mean, she can

[26:32]Laura Dave: I'll just

[26:33]Zibby Owens: be there silent because I won't want to embarrass myself. Yeah. You can watch me embarrass myself. No. No. When the author comes, it's all Q and A. I mean, it's just, you know, we can just dissect the book first. But Yeah. I would love you to be there. That would be amazing. So Wonderful. I would love that. Well, Laura, thank you. This was so fun, and I hope we can, like, all meet up in LA this summer sometime and whatever. And I'm so excited about your book, which I feel like we didn't talk enough about, but I'm sorry. And No. No. Good to It's

[27:02]Laura Dave: so nice. Yes, when you're when you're in Los Angeles this summer, I would love that. I would really love it. Awesome. Okay. Alright. Have a great day. Okay. Bye. Bye bye.

[27:12]Zibby Owens: Thank you again to Citizens of Humanity for sponsoring this episode and for donating all the proceeds of your long sleeve unisex t shirts that are available for getting vaxxed, the retail price is $34 to the Susan Felice Owens program for COVID-nineteen vaccine research at Mount Sinai Health System. Go to citizensofhumanity.com, Chad, and check them out. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.