Gabriela Garcia, OF WOMEN AND SALT

[1:39]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, My website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. Gabriela Garcia is the author of Women and Salt. Her fiction and poems have appeared in Best American Poetry, Tin House, Zizia, Iowa Review, Michigan Quarterly Review, The Cincinnati Review, Black Warrior Review, and elsewhere. She received a Rona Jaffe Foundation Writers Award, a Steinbeck Fellowship, and residencies and fellowships from Bread Loaf, Sarah Bandy Books, Lighthouse Works, the Keller Estate and the community of writers at Squaw Valley. She has an MFA in fiction from Purdue University where she also taught creative writing. Daughter of immigrants from Cuba and Mexico, Gabriela was raised in Miami and currently lives in the Bay Area. In her past life, she worked in music, magazines, technology, and feminist and immigrant rights organizing. Welcome, Gabriela. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss of women and salt.

[3:06]Gabriela Garcia: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

[3:09]Zibby Owens: First of all, congratulations on this being a GMA pick for April and the bestseller list and everything else and all the lists that you've made and everything. Are you just mean, I you must be so excited. That's awesome. Yeah. No. It's super exciting. It feels unreal still, you know, like, feel like it's happening to somebody else. But, yeah, I'm I'm just so excited that so many people have have connected with the book. It's truly beautiful. I mean, I've literally been, like, recommending it left, right, and center. Like, all these events, what are you reading? What are you loving? I was like, this book is so good. I also then slip in, and it's only, like, 200 pages. Yes. Because, you know, I feel like it's actually a little bit shorter than most novels that have been coming out lately or that I've been reading. Did you do that intentionally? I have like a zillion other questions. But Yeah. Yeah. I knew I I sort of wanted to write like a compact novel and to sort of offer

[4:04]Gabriela Garcia: these brief glimpses of these people's lives rather than like a traditional historical epic that's like, you know, 400 pages. I didn't want to like trace the whole life of all of these women just offered in snippets. But yeah, I mean, I feel like throughout the pandemic, I've struggled to concentrate and read and have appreciated some shorter reads. So I'm glad that that's

[4:29]Zibby Owens: that was exciting to you. Moms don't have time. That's funny. So I I saw an interview with you where you were talking about your own background and how having grown up in Miami to parents who are from Cuba and Mexico sort of inspired writing about a character like you. You didn't feel like was particularly represented and that your experience hadn't been written about in the same way. So I was hoping you could talk a little about like the inspiration for this book and how it came to be, especially as a debut novelist. I mean, this is so great.

[5:00]Gabriela Garcia: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I mean, so none of the characters are like really autobiographical. Like, I'm actually pretty different from almost every single character in the way I grew up and everything. But I think, you know, sort of what I was referencing in that is that I grew up in Miami, which is one of the few cities, maybe the only one, I'm not sure, that's Latinx majority. But you know, there are all of these sort of divisions along racial lines, along class lines. And I think, you know, maybe being the daughter of a Cuban immigrant, of a Mexican immigrant who had, you know, different, different sort of paths to migration in The US. And I think I always sort of felt that tension. And so I wanted to write about Miami and all of its complexity and these like really very different families who are living next door to each other. You know, there's Jeanette, the daughter of Cuban immigrants, and she witnesses her neighbor, Gloria, who is Salvadoran, be taken by ICE agents, and her daughter is sort of accidentally left behind. And so that's sort of the catalyst that that brings these these two families together. But, yeah, I I think I was sort of interested in in mining some of that complexity in Miami.

[6:16]Zibby Owens: I loved all the imagery of Gloria and her fascination with birds and all when she was in the deportment camp. I don't know what to call it. The temp The family detention center. Family detention center. Sorry. Thank you. And, like, you have a fast a fascination or an maybe I shouldn't say it's fascination. You include animals in a lot of different places with, like, the jaguar surprise and, like, the bird analogies. And I just feel like you weave in all these very, you know, natural world elements into the narrative. Tell me about that. Yeah. It's interesting because I think I I didn't even necessarily

[6:51]Gabriela Garcia: notice that until people started pointing it out to me. But it makes sense because I I myself have always been, you know, sort of fascinated by birds and animals. And I think, I think, you know, maybe some of what I what I was gesturing toward is the wildness that exists in people, you know, and sort of these different animals, like offer a kind of glimpse into these characters and how they think and how they sort of, you know, see the world, you know, and in particular, like the character of Gloria, who's really into into birds, I wanted to sort of show this other facet of her personality as she's going through this really difficult experience that she's just this like complex, interesting, interesting person.

[7:39]Zibby Owens: And how some animals so some birds even, like, commit suicide and how some birds are so bereft when they're, like, away from their loved ones that they they can't survive. I don't know. It's just like this really powerful image among many. Yeah.

[7:55]Gabriela Garcia: I I think I remember coming across that fact about about that those birds that sort of plunge to their death. And I was just I never sort of that image just stayed with me for for a really long time. And I was like, I need I wanna include this in something that I write. Mhmm. You also did such a great job, I thought. Well, first of all, of like creating all these characters who feel completely lifelike.

[8:19]Zibby Owens: But also talking about their relationships with men along the way and their relationships to their own sexuality and whether it's being a young girl sort of like, you know, at the gas station provocatively leaning in and ending up at like a bubble party to Mario and Jeanette's, like, on again and off essentially, you know, abusive relationships to other male figures in the book. And you had this one paragraph I was hoping to read from the beginning about when she breaks up when Jeanette had broken up with Mario. And you said that other life feels so distant now. All she can feel when it's just two voices across an expanse is the knowing that still survives. The body her fingertips memorize the universe of a relationship, all its language and borders and landscapes, a geography she studied for years and still does not understand. A man who pummels a fist into her side the same day he takes in a kitten found lying in the crook of a of a stairwell during a rainstorm. Nobody knows about the fights that got physical. Nobody knows these phone calls still happen. She thinks of Anna in the next room listening to the credits, thinks how even the best mothers in the world can't always save their daughters. Wow. That was beautiful. Thank you. Tell me a little more about this passage and even and how sometimes you have to hold on to pieces of the relationship, right, when you know you shouldn't.

[9:40]Gabriela Garcia: Yeah. I mean, I think especially when it when it comes to abusive relationships, like, there's there's such a complexity in in relationships. Like, rarely do you ever meet someone who's just fully a monster and has no other aspects to their personality. And, you know, I think in that case, like she's she's struggling with that. She's struggling with the tenderness and the connection she has in this relationship, while also this man is incredibly violent and toxic to her. And so I sort of wanted to plumb that a little bit, you know. There's always like this question of why women don't leave, which, you know, it's really complex. And there's there's so many reasons. But I think one of them, too, is that some of these relationships can be really confusing, you know. And so I think in that section, Jeanette is sort of struggling with that, and how to sort of situate herself in this relationship history that she has with this man. And part of what it's pointing to also is the way that, you know, when two people have an intense intimacy, other people can sort of look at that relationship from the outside. But nobody truly, truly understands it at all, you know, except the two people who are in it. And that, I think, can be really difficult to communicate. And so I think she's also thinking about that, you know, just the universe of their relationship that is so enclosed, you know?

[11:20]Zibby Owens: Yeah. And then you have Jeanette who's sort of struggling with the aftermath of her extrication from this relationship and addiction. And then her mother who was literally like channeling Martha Stewart on Thanksgiving and trying to make sure everything in her surroundings were completely perfect and how different you made that mother and daughter. I mean, there's so many mother daughter relationships throughout this book that are all so interesting because of course that relationship is such a unique one that has so many different iterations. But the fact that she cares so much about how she looks and how it seems, and then her daughter, you know, is almost the opposite, right? And that she shows up looking her best in like a tank top and jeans or something like that. Tell me a little more about that relationship and sort of the need to control or to seem like everything is okay when it's really not. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[15:24]Gabriela Garcia: Yeah. And I think you're right. I think mother daughter relationships can be some of the most intense, complicated relationships. And I think, you know, I think sort of both Jeanette and her mother are dealing with the aftermath of trauma and violence. But they deal with it in very different ways, you know, and both are sort of destructive to themselves, but are just are just very different, you know, and Carmen is sort of bearing a lot inside of her and just trying to, you know, trying to portray herself as having it all altogether. And that sort of damages a lot of her relationships. And, and yeah, you know, I think part of what I, what I really wanted to do in the book in portraying these mother daughter pairs, is sort of point to like, to like the complexity of motherhood and these characters, you know, I wanted to sort of write against some of the tropes that exist about, you know, women being strong or, you know, immigrant mothers in particular being like suffering and sacrificing all the time. And not that, you know, the mothers here don't suffer or sacrifice, but they're so, so much more than that. They're so much more complicated. You know, Gloria, at some points, like, questions if she even wants to be a mother. And Carmen is sort of distracted by all of her own inner turmoil and struggles to really see her daughter. So they're really complicated in that way. And also, you know, they're all sort of surviving circumstances. But, you know, I did, like I said, I didn't want them just to be strong, you know, survivors. Like, I wanted to also show the cost of that survival, you know, that sometimes, you know, you're able to survive in this, like, patriarchal misogynist world that they're in. But but there's a huge cost to that too, you know, in in the self. And so that's you know, I was thinking about all of all of that when I was thinking about motherhood. Mhmm. I got the chills when Jeanette found, I hope this is not giving I mean, when she found the book that said force written in the margin,

[17:40]Zibby Owens: you know, oh my God. Like what a moment. Like, especially because like all your scenes, it was so, they're all just so visual. Like you can feel like the dust when the car breaks down in the village. Right? You can like hear the creeks of the porch with the grandmother in her like sleeveless dress and like, I don't know. You just like have all these moments that are so amazing and then to discover these ancient books. And of course, the first half be like, well, could I sell an old book like this? You know? But this notion across centuries or over centuries and across generations of force and how people get through things. Is that like one of the takeaways not to like encapsulate your book and just like one thing, but just that our force, like our will to survive essentially?

[18:27]Gabriela Garcia: Yeah. I mean, I think there's so many different ways of thinking about that word force. And I think maybe that's why I was drawn to that phrase in these letters from Victor Ugo to Cuban workers. You know, I think there's that. There's like what you said, like the force, will to survive. There's also the way there are like historical forces, you know, at play that sort of pass through the generations. There are the ways that, you know, some of these women are sort of forced into circumstances where they have to sort of fight for agency. So I think there's so many different ways of sort of looking at that phrase. And so I was sort of drawn to that kind of ambiguity and the fact that it can mean

[19:11]Zibby Owens: all of these different things that are at play in the novel. So, Gabriela, tell me how you became this amazing novelist. I know you have an MFA, but, like, how did this start? Did you always know you wanted to be a writer? Did you always write fiction? Like, how did we get here? Yeah. So I,

[19:27]Gabriela Garcia: yeah, have always loved writing since I was a little girl. Like, before I could even write, I used to tell stories to my mom. Would like dictate them and she would write them down. So I feel like I've been writing fiction and poetry and everything all my life. But it's not something that I sort of pursued seriously until, you know, like a good ten years after graduating from undergrad. And I didn't study creative writing in undergrad. I never took a workshop, actually, until my MFA. I had many different jobs, you know, in music, in magazines. Eventually, I became an organizer working for feminist organizations and migrant justice organizations, you know, and I was doing writing in all of these jobs, but not, you know, creatively. And then I just got to a point where I really wanted to take my fiction seriously. And I thought, you know, I'll apply to these programs that I'm that I'm really interested in. And if I don't get in, like, I'll just, you know, continue down this path. And, and if I do, like, I'll, dedicate myself to really pursuing this. And so I was really excited to get into, you know, one of the programs that I was really excited about at Purdue. And yeah, the novel sort of really came together in those three years of of my my MFA. Mhmm. And what are you working on another novel now? Or what are you up to now? Yeah. I haven't started on a novel. Like, I I do want to write another one. But right now, I'm mostly writing poetry, mostly working on short stories.

[21:06]Zibby Owens: Yeah. Did this ever did you ever conceive of this book as short stories? Was it ever like short stories about some of these women?

[21:14]Gabriela Garcia: Yeah, so I sort of knew when I started that I didn't want to write a kind of chronological linear storyline. But I wasn't entirely sure of the of how I wanted that structure to work. You know, there was a point where I was like, Oh, maybe this is like a linked short story collection, like a novel and stories. And then I started adding in pieces that didn't really work as standalone stories. And at some point, I just gave myself permission to not to not have to, like, define exactly what what this is, you know? But, yeah, that's sort of the the backstory behind the structure.

[21:49]Zibby Owens: So when you're not writing, like, what are some of the things you love to do? I

[21:55]Gabriela Garcia: so I've been roller skating a lot during the pandemic, like many people. I don't know anybody else who's been roller skating during the pandemic. Really? I feel like maybe I'm just like hyper aware of it because I started roller skating. But I feel like there are all these roller skating videos and people are, you know, have really oh my gosh. Yeah. And they sort of like, made this impromptu roller rink by my house, by the lake. Like, it's just like a parking lot and a bunch of people go out there to roller skates. It's really fun. And, yeah, I mean, I read a ton, obviously. I draw a little bit. I like to draw. What else do I do? What kind of books do you like to read? I read I read, you know, fiction, literary fiction. I read a lot of poetry too. Sometimes I read, you know, nonfiction, memoir stuff. Yeah. I I read pretty broadly, I think. And do you still sort of keep your activist hat on? Yeah. I mean, I've done, you know, I've done some some work with organizations I previously worked with this year, but, you know, not not in a full time capacity like I used to do. Just it's really hard to sort of try to juggle that with all of the the writing stuff and the book coming out. But yeah, I've been I've been mostly sort of focused on on book stuff. I bet.

[23:13]Zibby Owens: Awesome. Do you have advice for aspiring authors?

[23:16]Gabriela Garcia: I think, you know, the thing that's been absolutely most helpful for me has been being part of writing communities. And I think if that's in the form of MFA, if that's just in the form of like, attending more literary events wherever you are, sort of creating that community. I think just, you know, writing can be such a solitary pursuit. And being part a community has just really sustained me, nourished me. So I think that would be my advice to either find or create those communities. Awesome.

[23:57]Zibby Owens: Great. Well, you so much. Thank you for this beautiful, beautiful book. And I truly loved it. And these characters are going to stay with me for a while. Is this going be a movie? Did it get optioned yet? I'm sure it has, but Not yet. What? Crazy. Oh, well, even just the image of the cigar factories and reading under the amazing. Like, I could just go on and on, but I won't bore you. I'm sure you're used to this. Oh my. Anyway Yeah. Congratulations. Well done. Awesome. Yeah. I can't wait to see what else you write. Thank you. Okay. Have a great day. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.