Carol Orange, A DISCERNING EYE

[1:32]Zibby Owens: This is Zoe Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time To, a Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions. So please send your personal essays there. If all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram ZibbyOwens and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. Carol Orange is the author of A Discerning Eye. Carol has worked in the art world for more than twenty years. She began as a research editor on art books in London and later became an art dealer in Boston. She has an MBA from Simmons University and worked as a marketing manager at the Polaroid Corporation. Along with concert pianist Virginia Eskin, who played Chopin's music, she read excerpts from George Sands novels in three salons at the French Library in Boston. Her short story Delicious Dates was included in Warren Adler's twenty ten short story anthology. Another story, Close Call, appeared in the Atherton Review, Volume two. A recent article, Seven Great Heist Novels Recommended by an Art Dealer, was published in Crime Reads. Her debut novel, A Discerning Eye, takes off from the tragic robbery at the Gardner Museum. It was published by Cabin Bridge Press. Good morning, Zippy. Good morning.

[2:59]Carol Orange: Thank you so much for having me this morning on your wonderful podcast.

[3:05]Zibby Owens: Oh, it's such a thrill to have you after all of our book club discussions to discuss your book. Well, as you know, this is a very informal podcast, so we can just jump in and start discussing A Discerning Eye. Thank you for sending it and all this great stuff. So Carol, let's start by you telling everybody what your book is about and what inspired you to write it. Thank you, Sabi. Okay.

[3:31]Carol Orange: So what inspired me to write it? I was an art dealer in Boston, and I've always been in love with art ever since I was a little girl and my parents used to take me to the Metropolitan Museum, and I would get lost in those fabulous paintings. And then when I was an undergraduate at Cornell, I took history of art, and I would sit on the edge of my seat when the lights went out and the discussions began about art. So art has always been something that's very important to me in my life. I would lose myself in paintings. So what inspired me is that I was living in Boston. I had a gallery, and the robbery happened at the Isabella Gardner Museum, which is a magical place. Have you ever been there? Yes. Oh, good. Yeah, it's magical place. I mean, Isabella Stewart Gardner was just an incredible woman. She was very wealthy and she could have done lots of things with her money, but what she chose to do was to build a museum and put together an art collection that is just fantastic. And she built this Italian Palazzo in the middle of Boston, so the outside is very severe. It doesn't look like much from the outside. But when you go inside and you see the Venetian, the very light pink Venetian walls and the nasturtiums falling down from the top of the balcony down these walls, and then on the ground, there are all these gorgeous plants and Roman antiquities, and you're transported to another world. And I used to go there very often, not only for art, but one of my neighbors was a concert pianist, and she used to play at the Gardner on Sundays. So, you know, it's just an amazing setting. So when this robbery happened, this theft of 13 objects, I I just was devastated. And I I just thought, how how could someone do that? Because they're depriving the public of being able to see one of the rare Vermeers, which is one of my favorite paintings, the concert. There are only 36 Vermeers in the world. And how could someone dare to steal this great art? And so I started to think about it, you know, who would be so nasty and who would dare to do this? And I thought it had to be someone really clever because the paintings that they chose, there seemed to be a purpose. You know, they went out of their way to steal the Manet, which is on the 1st Floor and not near the Rembrandts and the Vermeers in the Dutch Room. And the Manet is in a very crowded room with lots of other art, so they had to specifically go after that manet. And actually, I love that manet of the lonely gentleman within his He's all dressed up wearing a top hat and tails, and he's sitting at a cafe table with a glass of wine, half drunk glass of wine, and part of his face is in shadow, and he looks really lonely sitting there. There's something, you know, just compelling about this very simple portrait. So whoever was the mastermind, and I do believe there was a mastermind, went out of their way to steal that particular painting. So anyway, it just made me so upset, and I started imagining who might be behind this. I mean, obviously, the mafia was involved in some way because I do believe those two people who dressed up as policemen who got into the museum late at night on St. Patrick's Eve, had to be mafia connected, but the mastermind was super intelligent. They had a plot. So I started to imagine that it was someone from a foreign country, someone who knew the gardener, and I thought about Harvard graduations. You went to Harvard, so you know what an international

[9:05]Zibby Owens: I went to the business school. Yeah, but that's still

[9:09]Carol Orange: Okay. Well, at the business school, didn't you have lots of international students? Yes. Yes. I mean Many. Yes. Little Cambridge is an international place. There are so many people who come there from all over the world to go to the Divinity School or to business school or law school or as an undergraduate. So I imagine that someone from another country went to a Harvard graduation. And when you go to a Harvard graduation and you have a long weekend, one of the things you do in Boston is go to the Gardner Museum. Right?

[9:56]Zibby Owens: Mhmm, yes. That's what I went with my dad and stepmom. Yes. Yeah.

[10:02]Carol Orange: So that's, I imagined it was someone who graduation and went to the Gardner Museum and noticed, because unfortunately, it's easy to notice, that the security there is a bit lax. I mean, you know, they're just, you know, and and so this clever person, this clever maniacal person said, you know, it it probably wouldn't be too difficult to get my favorite paintings from the gardener. So that's what my book is about.

[10:45]Zibby Owens: That's what inspired it. Wow. I love that story. I love how so much fiction is like, what if meets emotion. Right? Like, you're upset about the theft and then you imagine, like, what could it be? And the next thing you know, you have a novel. You know, it's amazing. Which period of time, like, when you studied art history in college, I loved art history, by the way. I took it every semester in college, and I am a huge art fan general, although I don't spend much time in museums anymore. But what I did take this amazing class by Christopher Wood about Dutch, like, eighteenth century, know, amazingly Vermeer and all those, you know, Rembrandt and everybody. What is your some of your favorite

[11:26]Carol Orange: time of art and all of that? Well, I do, of course, love Vermeer, and I wanna say something about Isabella Stewart Gardner. When she bought the Vermeer in Paris at an auction, Vermeer was not well known. He was not well known, so it was really impressive that she decided, I have to have that painting because, you know, now he's extremely well known. But, you know, she had been schooled by Bernard Berenson, another Harvard person who really taught her about the Italian Renaissance world, Italian Renaissance paintings, and actually, it is interesting because those jewels were not stolen, the Giotto, the Titian, Repo Europa, which is one of the world's most famous paintings. So, you know, the fact that she, on her own, without Berenson, selected Vermeer, and I do love the Dutch masters. I think that they capture, like, you know, Rembrandt's faces follow you around the room. I mean, they're so evocative, they're so real, they're authentic, and they have so much character. I mean, people have lived. I do love the Dutch masters, but I was very lucky. After graduation, I married my husband who was studying for his PhD in political science, and we went to live in London. And I was so fortunate because I found a job as a research editor of a book on Spanish art. And very honestly, I did not know much at that point about Spanish art, but I was so fortunate because my advisor on this book of Spanish art was named Xavier de Salas, and he was a wonderful, wonderful man, and so erudite, but also funny and warm and fascinating. So he later became the director of the Prado Museum. Oh, wow. So because I had this job, I fell in love with Goya and with Velasquez and El Greco and then, you know, some of the lesser known Spanish artists, like Rivera, like Zubaran. There's a great Zubaran in the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, which fortunately is still there. So because of Xavier de Salas, I love Spanish art. And, you know, they also, you know, really portrayed people, you know, with lines in their faces, with character. And then I like contemporary art. I like some of the German artists who, like George Gross, he's in the Neue Gallery, And his portraits, which are very, very different than the Dutch and the Spanish artists, I mean, of course, they're more contemporary, but his faces are really amazing. And he captures pre Nazi Germany in the faces, people, you can really see this. So my taste is kind of eclectic, you know, I'm in awe of Picasso, not because he's so famous or because, you know, his prices are so high, but because he continually reinvented himself. I mean, he was abstract, he was cubist, then he played around with pottery, then he did sculpture. I mean, he played around with every possible art material, and his inventiveness, his continual growth, going from the blue period, which was kind of semi realistic, you know, to super abstract. And, oh, I love his collages, by the way. Mean, I don't know any artist who has been as inventive

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[19:16]Zibby Owens: So, Carol, take me from you studying Velasquez in London to now. Like, writing this novel. Do do me the short version of your whole, like, life story. How did you end up writing this novel? How did you find your passion in writing? Like, how did we get here? Okay. Thank you, Sibi. That's a really good question.

[19:40]Carol Orange: Well, I always loved writing. I was an English major and I minored in art history. So I was always in love with writing. So when I came back from living in London and working in art book publishing, I thought I would work for Abrams, but actually I couldn't get a job doing that. I ended up working for this really brilliant man named Jason Epstein at Random House. I was his editorial assistant and I didn't know how to type. And the other thing was I hadn't graduated from Radcliffe, but I worked, which were his two criteria, but I worked for Jason, I commuted from Princeton, my husband was finishing his PhD, and, you know, I mean, Jason was just so brilliant, and I got to meet writers like William Styron, one of my favorite writers of all time, and the infamous Philip Roth, and, you know, just all these extraordinary writers. And that was my dream, was to I didn't dare think of myself as a novelist. I was too young and didn't have the confidence, but I wanted to work in publishing. But when I moved to Boston from New York, my choices were really much more limited. And I did spend a bit of time, not much, because after you've worked for Jason Epstein, you know, no one can possibly meet that criteria. So, you know, I worked at The Atlantic Monthly Press, but in any case, you know, over time, I started really taking myself more seriously and thinking about myself as a writer. I mainly worked in education. I developed a curriculum for a nonprofit organization called the Educational Services. So with a group of people, I developed a curriculum called Black Americans in America and Irish Americans in America, and it was intended for ninth graders. So I not only wrote with other people, I think there were like five people on our team, this curriculum, I also taught ninth grade without any experience. So writing has always and reading has always been my passion. So over the years, I've taken lots of writing classes, and I've gone to many writing workshops. And, you know, I hope that I've gotten better and better over time.

[22:48]Zibby Owens: And so when did you this couldn't be your first novel. It is.

[22:54]Carol Orange: It is like, You must

[22:56]Zibby Owens: have some, like, in the drawer or something. Was this literally like, I feel like most novelists have a stash in their in their file cabinet or something. That well, I understand. I know you have have some. Well, I did write a book. I, again, was very fortunate. I got to live in Paris

[23:13]Carol Orange: for two years, and I researched the life of the writer Georges Sande. And I did write a biography of Georges Sand. You know, I just was blown away by her life and the life of other women during this period in France when women had no rights, they couldn't get divorced, they couldn't own property, and here were these women. And Georgiosonde, of course, had to write under a male pseudonym to get recognized. And another one was Marie Dagu, who wrote under the pseudonym Daniel Stern. She was a historian and she was the lover of Franz Liszt, while Gerson was the lover of Frederic Chopin, and, you know, these women were extraordinary. So I did that's in my draw. Okay. The biography of Georgian. I have had some short stories published, but I really was intimidated by the novel form.

[24:23]Zibby Owens: But now I'm working on my second, so. Oh, good. Wait, so how did you do it? Did you outline the whole thing? How did you approach it? How did you dive in and how did you get it done? Okay,

[24:33]Carol Orange: well, I did outline. I learned how to outline. I think initially I, you know, just wrote without any thought of where it was going. But I was in a writing group and one of the members of the writing group taught me how to outline. And I do think outlining is wonderful. And it's a lively outline. It's not static. So it did take me ten years to write this because I did have a full time job while I was doing it, of course. And a grandmother. Aw. How old are your grandkids? I only have one. I, you know, I envy you having four.

[25:21]Zibby Owens: I don't have four. I only have four. They might not have kids. Who knows? I have four kids.

[25:26]Carol Orange: No, but the odds are in your favor. Odds are in your favor. I mean, my best friend from childhood, we've been friends since we were seven. And oh, that's another book that I've been writing, you know, this incredible friendship that we've had. And she has three kids and nine grandchildren, so I have envy.

[25:54]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. I've gotta, like, stock up on kids' birthday presents and, you know, all that. Oh my gosh. Wait. What is your next novel about? So my next novel is about Nazi stolen

[26:08]Carol Orange: art. My husband was a German Jewish refugee. I met him at Cornell. His story was amazing. He and his parents left Germany, if you can believe this, in the fall of nineteen forty two. Don't really understand exactly how they were able to leave, but they were an interesting family. My husband died young in his 50s, and I became deeply attached to his great aunt who lived in New York. And I learned from her that the family had lived in this region of Germany for six hundred years. Wow. And that they did have some art, but they weren't as concerned with it because the grandparents died in Auschwitz. And, you know, what does art mean when life is lost in such a horrible way? Anyway, about six years ago, I went to Germany to this beautiful little town that they came from in South Germany. It's South Of Stuttgart. And I had met people with Greta, who was Eric's aunt, at the Goethe Institute. I had met some German people. Greta brought me to this meeting. They wanted to meet survivors, and they were such fabulous people. They just wanted to do whatever they could to help survivors and to make sure that genocide like this never happened again. So I became friendly with some of them. And so I went to this little town. After Greta passed away, I went to this little town and I saw this, you know, gorgeous house that my husband's family lived in and this beautiful town, and I thought, How could this have happened there? But, you know, it was really amazing. We were in the cemetery, the ancient cemetery, not a new one, but an ancient Jewish cemetery behind the house. And it was the summertime, and, you know, I was looking at gravestones, and all of a sudden, it started to hail with hailstones the size of quarters, and it was like, I've gotta do something about this. You know, I've gotta write this story. But I decided to make it about art and to have Portia involved. You know, Portia being working in in this case with Julian Henderson, the art crime chief from the FBI, they both give up their jobs and they become PIs. So I've made it about getting the art back, but I've included all the information about the family. That's what my second novel is about. That sounds very powerful and fantastic.

[29:36]Zibby Owens: Wow, good for you. That's amazing. Okay, quickly, do you have any advice for aspiring authors? I do. I do because

[29:45]Carol Orange: it's been quite a journey. Quite a journey. I think the most important thing is to believe in yourself, to learn as much as you possibly can. I mean, it is really hard to find good, critical feedback that can make whatever it is that you're writing even better. And so you have to learn as much as you possibly can from as many sources as you can, and then believe in yourself, believe in the authenticity of your own voice. And the other piece of advice is to be persistent, to hang in there because there's a lot of rejection along the way, and none of us like rejection, right? But in actual fact, rejection, it depends on the kind of rejection you get. Rejection can really help you understand what you need to do in order to make it even better. Excellent.

[30:57]Zibby Owens: Wow. Carol, I'm so glad we got a chance to talk and I get to learn more about you and read your book and you're a beautiful writer and I'm so excited about your next book and

[31:08]Carol Orange: wow, what a story. What a life. Thank you. Thank you so much, Zibby. It's just so wonderful to be in your book group and to know you. And I hope to get to know you even better in November. You're a very special person. You know, you have such a generosity of spirit and I love it. I just love it. Thank you. Thank you.

[31:34]Zibby Owens: Okay, yes, to the retreat.

[31:36]Carol Orange: I'm very excited. That's wonderful. And that is really in the spirit of Georges Saland and Marie Debout. They had salons in Paris where they invited people to listen and learn. And so thank you, Zvi, for organizing

[31:54]Zibby Owens: this. My pleasure. Wow. What an honor to be in there the same sentence as them. So

[32:00]Carol Orange: alright. Thank you, Carol. Oh, thank you, Zippy. Thank you. Have a wonderful day. You too. Bye bye. Bye.