Paul Rudnick, PLAYING THE PALACE

[0:01]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.

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[0:34]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.

[0:37]Welcome to another day of the June Book Blast for this podcast. This is RomCom Friday.

[0:44]So enjoy all of these fun, light-hearted conversations about different rom-coms that I've read and profiled for the podcast.

[0:53]Enjoy!

[0:54]Paul Brannick is the author of Playing the Palace.

[0:57]Paul is a novelist, playwright, essayist, and screenwriter, who the New York Times has called one of our preeminent humorists.

[1:04]Paul is writing the book, which means the script basically, for a Broadway musical adaptation of The Devil Wears Prada in collaboration with Elton John, and I just did an event with Lauren Weissberger, and had her on my podcast, too.

[1:17]And she's the author of The Book, The Devil Wears Prada.

[1:20]Paul also wrote the script for the recent HBO special Coastal Elite, a socially-distanced film about the COVID-19 pandemic, which stars Bette Medler, Dan Levy, Esare and Sarah Paulson.

[1:31]Paul's plays have been produced both on and off Broadway and around the world, and include I Hate Hamlet, Jeffrey, the most fabulous story ever told, Valhalla, regrets only, and the new century.

[1:40]He wrote the screenplays for many iconic movies, including In and Out, and The Adam's Family Values.

[1:45]And his novels include Social Disease, and I'll take it, both from Knoth.

[1:49]Paul is a regular contributor to The New Yorker, and his articles and essays have also appeared in The New York Times, Esquire Vogue and Vanity Fair.

[1:56]Welcome, Paul.

[1:57]Thank you so much for coming on Momstone.

[1:59]I have time to read books to discuss playing the Palace.

[2:02]Oh, thank you so much for having me.

[2:04]So many people, by the way, recommended your book to me that I hope you know that there's all sorts of buzz going around this book, everyone's like,

[2:11]have you ready and have you ready yet? So anyway, justice.

[2:14]Oh, I'm so sorry.

[2:15]Nor that away.

[2:16]No, I'm especially glad I'm here today.

[2:19]And I see why, because it's so great.

[2:23]It's so fun.

[2:24]It's so immersive.

[2:25]The main character is hilarious.

[2:27]And I love him so much.

[2:29]It's great to find such a sort of self deprecating, you know, he's so down on himself.

[2:38]I'm blanking on his name.

[2:39]What is his name?

[2:41]Carter is so down on himself.

[2:43]And he's like, oh, he's just feeling like the worst.

[2:46]Like what is anyone doing with me?

[2:48]Or I'm going to fail this.

[2:49]And it's just so great to see him like triumph.

[2:52]And I don't know.

[2:53]It's just amazing.

[2:54]Like the underdog story, if you will, and with a sense of humor.

[2:57]It was just great.

[2:58]I loved it.

[2:59]Paul, thank you.

[3:00]Thank you.

[3:01]That makes me very happy.

[3:02]So why don't you tell listeners a little about what the book's about

[3:06]and how you came up with the story idea, which is, well, I want it after

[3:10]everything we've all been through for the past year and the past many years before that.

[3:15]I wanted a complete all-out romantic comedy.

[3:19]You know, the most giddy, delicious escape.

[3:23]And I've been thinking for actually quite some time about a royal romance.

[3:27]I'd had the title maybe 20 years ago playing the palace.

[3:31]And I wasn't sure where this story should land until I came up with Carter Ogden.

[3:35]Who is a very lonely New York event planner with roommates.

[3:40]He's been dumped time.

[3:41]And again, he just is at that as low as you can get.

[3:44]And then one day, as can only happen in Manhattan, he manages to make Prince

[3:48]Edgar be crown prince of England.

[3:51]And they fall hopelessly and passionately in love against, you know,

[3:55]some of the largest imaginable obstacles, which is what I loved writing.

[4:00]So I think the core of the book is pretty much the moment when Carter

[4:04]decides he's going to take the crown prince of England to

[4:08]Piscataway New Jersey as his plus one and his sister's wedding.

[4:12]Because I'm a Jewish guy from New Jersey and I thought,

[4:15]OK, what would that be like?

[4:17]You know, it's just I hope a real celebration of romance and love.

[4:23]And everything we're sort of yearning for in a beneath our masks.

[4:29]I was surprised by the way at how cool his sister Abby was

[4:33]with having the crown friends sort of be in the audience,

[4:36]if you will, for her wedding unexpectedly, right?

[4:38]Because he hadn't told her and that she was like,

[4:40]this is awesome.

[4:41]I mean, anyway, she just loved it.

[4:43]It was great.

[4:44]She used much that more foul language than you just did.

[4:47]I was debating if I should say that or not.

[4:49]I didn't know.

[4:50]Yeah.

[4:51]I tied to that.

[4:52]I love Abby.

[4:53]She spoke a surgeon and someone who speaks her mind at every possible

[4:59]community.

[5:00]And I just always admire people with that kind of exuberant confidence.

[5:04]You know, people who are very happy to tell you what to live.

[5:07]Who to marry and, you know, what to wear.

[5:10]So she is just so protective and supportive of her brother.

[5:14]And I think as you're in the book,

[5:16]you find out why they bond it so deeply.

[5:18]It's great.

[5:19]And yet there's still like, there's so much heart too.

[5:22]I mean, it's not, I mean, it's not a frivolous read.

[5:25]like you get into some real stuff.

[5:28]You know, like here's this one paragraph I really liked that Carter

[5:31]said.

[5:32]He said what I needed.

[5:33]Well, this actually I'll read the previous line too,

[5:35]because it's hilarious.

[5:36]I briefly considered tutoring people in poverty,

[5:38]stricken countries on creating Wonder Woman themed

[5:41]bumsets for centerpieces as a form of associate event

[5:44]architects without borders.

[5:46]Oh my gosh.

[5:47]And then he said what I needed was something I'd never confided

[5:49]to anyone, not even my dearest friends and family members

[5:52]because it was such an impossible and yearned for wish,

[5:55]something that I wanted so badly.

[5:57]It made me believe I had a soul.

[5:59]I wanted this one thing with such certainty

[6:01]that I knew it was more than a journal entry,

[6:03]Doodle or a childhood fantasy,

[6:05]which I needed to outgrow.

[6:06]It was who I was.

[6:08]That's all.

[6:09]Oh yeah.

[6:10]No, it's I.

[6:11]Well, I'm so glad you picked that because yeah,

[6:12]Carter is somebody who has so many secret dreams

[6:17]and that he thinks he's just reached that point in his life.

[6:20]He's about to turn 30

[6:21]where he thinks maybe this is all out of reach.

[6:24]And suddenly there are possibilities,

[6:26]which can be quite terrifying.

[6:28]And I think Carter backs away quite a bit.

[6:31]And Prince Edgar wonderfully makes that a draw each other out

[6:35]and they make each other's futures become possible.

[6:39]And so yeah, I wanted it to have some real underpinnings.

[6:42]Also, it's a story that people

[6:44]are very different social status.

[6:46]You know that there couldn't be a larger gap between these two

[6:50]guys and many ways it also made me think about Megan and Harry.

[6:55]You know, the idea of such an unlikely romance

[6:58]and how sometimes those are the very best

[7:00]and those are the ones that I think the rest of the world tends

[7:03]to invest in because they can see themselves.

[7:06]Oh my God.

[7:07]There is the slightest dreamy possibility

[7:11]that that could happen to me.

[7:13]Well, it's it's true.

[7:14]I mean, I feel like especially with the royals,

[7:16]like everybody wonders because it's of course

[7:18]it's like an impossible dream.

[7:20]How could you like what is it like for them to live

[7:23]and how what if what if like they'll have to get married?

[7:27]Like I remember this in Prince Williams.

[7:29]Oh, this son was born and it was like right when my third child

[7:32]was born and I was like maybe maybe they'll meet and fall in love.

[7:36]Who knows?

[7:37]Like what if what if or not her?

[7:40]Yeah.

[7:41]I and you should keep thinking that way.

[7:44]You never know.

[7:46]I don't know.

[7:47]People magazine.

[7:48]I don't know that I would wish that on my daughter.

[7:51]I don't know.

[7:52]I don't know if it's something anymore to really aspire to.

[7:55]I mean, I grew up with like the Princess Diana giant coffee table

[7:58]books that I would like read every night before bed.

[8:00]And that whole time of really idolizing the palace life where

[8:04]is now I feel like we've all seen the underbelly if you will.

[8:07]But oh my God.

[8:08]Yes.

[8:09]But back in the day it was quite different.

[8:10]So I don't know.

[8:11]I won't push my daughter too hard.

[8:13]I know although I think you made a good point because also Princess Diana

[8:16]was one of the first royals I think especially in our lifetimes.

[8:20]Who used her celebrity and her influence to do an awful lot of good in the world.

[8:25]Yeah.

[8:26]I think that's something that Carter and Prince Edgar share that sense of no

[8:29]it's no longer enough to just be rich and royal.

[8:33]You know how can you turn that into a force for good?

[8:37]And I remember when Princess Diana visited AIDS patients when she made a

[8:41]a point of showing up.

[8:43]And I think Megan and Harry seem to be following in that tradition.

[8:47]So it's impressive because you think, yeah, that's that's a I

[8:51]Prince and Princess we could believe in.

[8:53]Yes.

[8:54]And I love by the way that they at their first date Carter and

[8:59]Prince Edgar and you were like, it's somebody when you were like,

[9:02]when he said like you can call me and or Eddie or so then you were like,

[9:05]no, no, no, he's not.

[9:07]He's not in any.

[9:08]But that they sat down to this super formal meal at whatever fine dining,

[9:12]you know, super posh private room, whatever.

[9:15]And Carter's like, let's go to iHOP.

[9:18]I feel like you need to do some massive collaboration with that chain.

[9:22]Like have you talked to them?

[9:24]I am waiting because I happen to be an enormous iHOP fan.

[9:29]Because when I was growing up in Jersey, anytime my family went to iHOP,

[9:33]it was a major occasion.

[9:34]It was a big treat.

[9:36]And I by one of the things that bonded mine my long time partner and I is that

[9:40]we visit iHOPs all across the country.

[9:43]Although I have always been a little confused.

[9:45]Even though it stands for international house of pancakes,

[9:48]I haven't come across any in other countries.

[9:50]So there's there's a goal.

[9:51]But yeah, no, that is my dream for iHOP to maybe name a

[9:55]Rudy 2D fresh and fruity special after me.

[9:59]Thank you.

[10:00]That was the first place we went, you know, when the lockdown was slightly lifting and I have this very good about social distancing and wiping everything down with limited menu, but I thought, okay, I hope is here for us.

[10:12]That's so funny. Yes, there was one when I was in graduate school, there was an I have nearby and that's sort of where I got to know my ex-husband and we would like go to I have all the time and it was open all that. I know it was just great. I love I haves. I love pancakes favorite food by the way. So yeah.

[10:29]No, I have been carvel actually. Yes, I feel like I'm proving I'm from New Jersey. Yeah, but it's yeah. No, I have interestingly is a destination for families and often for criminals because it's open late. So it's you can meet all sorts of people at an I have.

[10:48]Yes, but very good and the sticky syrup and like you could just got it all I mean you just like nailed it. And yes, Carvel as well. We have edgy at all of our birthdays.

[10:58]I do the well. A staple. So yes, father's I should. Yeah, now you don't even have to order anything just like go in anyway.

[11:07]So I know you have a big background in screenwriting and I loved in and out by the way. I watched that right when it came out and everything.

[11:14]And this of course feels very visual. It feels to me a lot like nodding hill where you have like all these this cast of characters and they all kind of band together and there's dramatic ending and I don't know.

[11:24]It just kind of reminded me of that in particular. What's it like writing a fiction as a novel as opposed to screenwriting and do you see this one ending up on the screen as well.

[11:35]Well, I'm so glad you mentioned not any help because that was the kind of movie I wanted to reflect in this novel that it was also about someone because it's a regular guy a guy who runs a book shop who falls in love with one of the world's biggest movie stars.

[11:49]I love the idea of a romance in that kind of spotlight that that's different from equals, you know, or that's it entails all sorts of challenges that most of us don't have to have to deal with.

[12:01]So when it's far I love screenwriting but it's very different discipline and I've learned through trial and error to usually let the material decide where it wants to land.

[12:12]So I would be delighted to play in the palace become a movie, but I think it was when I heard it in Carter's voice, which is something that can only really exist on the page.

[12:22]That was when it all came together for me, so that it certainly has a visual element, especially anytime you're entering Buckingham Palace, you know, suddenly that's what we're looking at, but yeah, I always enjoyed sort of

[12:36]leaprogging between the stage movies look at your beautiful dog. Yes, she's my podcast companion she's so great, but yeah, so that screenwriting certainly has informed my my work and help me with dialogue, especially because you it makes you edit it makes you aware of how sometimes

[13:00]you know, the visual can do what five pages of dialogue has to accomplish in a book or on stage.

[13:07]But I've been very wary of making sure okay now this wants to be a book and take advantage of that.

[13:14]Interesting yeah well Carter did have such a great well I mean it's such a unique voice and yes it was really fun very confessional in a way.

[13:24]So what was it like writing this did you write it during Covid I know you said that that was sort of it was the antidote to that kind of fear to have an escape in this book, but when did you start writing it like when what was that process like.

[13:37]actually a few years earlier, but I did all the final editing and the and the final dallies during the lockdown, which was such a blessing if a pandemic can ever be said to have you know an upside.

[13:50]But it was the pandemic actually I realized kind of made all of us assume the way a writer usually lives which is alone in your room.

[13:59]But what I love was being able to escape into this world of a certain glamour a certain freedom, a certain wild amount of passion it was just what I needed you know so that I would be working so you know line editing and going through every every sentence and I'd be so happy and then I'd look up and realize alright.

[14:21]I hope it my miss me sitting on the desk my surgical gloves are sitting over there, you know, this is a very different time, so it was a great balance for me and I thought oh okay good I hope I could share this with with readers that sense of yep you're going to have a great time.

[14:39]I mean this isn't just nodding hello, this is and it's not just the the class differences or the fame levels, but this is a this is two men who are in love and that you did that doesn't often get you know central casting.

[14:54]You know to speak right, but having the whole relationship focus on this romance tell me about that and deciding to have that be the central feature.

[15:02]Well, I didn't want to write a coming out story because I think those are very valid and there are plenty of books about.

[15:09]Prejudice about the you know be enormous rejection that that gay people could sometimes face, but I thought we need other stories as well joyous stories and I know so many openly and very happy gay people that I thought yeah that's the world I want to explore.

[15:26]But let's have the two guys being gay a complete given and you think the royal family's been around forever there are so many members and you know there are some LGBTQ people in there somewhere so I thought let's imagine that one of them have come out.

[15:40]Fearlessly and happily and said you know I if I'm going to represent my country that I they need to know who I really am and take it from there.

[15:48]So I loved trusting the reader that way it was something but I remember what I was working on it and out and the studio was very nervous about it and how would it play in different.

[15:58]Part of the country and they found out this is a universal language people in fact are also I think very eager for fresh stories for a story that haven't heard a million times before.

[16:08]So it was really fun to say okay what would that look like also because I think protector has an additional layer of responsibility because he has to not only represent the royal family, but he becomes a gay figure head and that's not easy that he's going to be criticized from every.

[16:28]place on the political spectrum that there will be people who feel he's not gay enough he's not gay in the correct manner he's to gay and I thought okay that's something that only the first guy has to deal with the first woman that it's.

[16:42]starting now with that with Megan and Harry with our first gentleman and married to Kamala with you know there are new roles with with chastened and Pete, you know that I love watching how the world just and realizes.

[16:57]To a great degree what were we ever nervous about you know these are wonderful couples in love just like everybody else sometimes even more so that I think that's also at the core of the book is when you're.

[17:09]that out there on every level when you are representing the English people gay people everyone it's great to have a partner, you know it's support system is so important.

[17:21]So that yeah I just I mean I'm gay and I love writing back gay lives in a way that says no this is this is for everyone.

[17:29]And poor Edgar has had a lot on his plate in addition to all of that right in addition to having to be a figurehead of a nation and a sexuality and everything but he's gone through a lot of loss himself and it really has to.

[17:42]figure out how to cope with that on a day to day basis even you know his special favorite room in his house and you know the old nursery and the memories that he carries with him and you know that sort of sense of.

[17:54]Of loss and longing is also unfortunately super timely as well yeah that was why one thing I'm so admired about Perry.

[18:02]Was when he was so open about experiencing depression and about allowing himself to go into therapy because you think of what the tragedy he's known since he was a small child.

[18:13]That that's very brave because the royal family was usually very private about any of those concerns and I think he realized no this is again a way I can use my position in the world.

[18:26]To help other people and today remove a certain stigma from issues surrounding mental health and yeah I wanted to be somebody who had a lot of damage and I think it's also why when we need his his grandmother Queen Catherine she seems very hilarious.

[18:43]You know some I Carter meets her what he thinks I'll maybe I'll be presented properly and formerly and of course no he runs into her at 2 a.m. in the palace kitchen when he's.

[18:52]You know stealing snacks and it's just you know in his sweats and it's just the everything goes wrong.

[18:58]But I think you eventually realize that Catherine isn't just the toughest cookie on earth.

[19:03]She's so protective of her grandson and she so on so many the best for him and she knows that okay this is a guy who's experienced way more than his share of tragedy and she doesn't want that to continue so that you find there are all sorts of facets to to that relationship as well.

[19:21]But yeah no I mean Edgar I think it's it's also the the difficulty of dealing with.

[19:27]Personal trauma in a spotlight you know with the internet breathing over your shoulder 24 seven that's not something that the rest of us.

[19:38]You know we have to deal with quite as much so and I think I wanted to create a character who dealt with it for the most part very well who understood his privilege understood his responsibilities.

[19:49]and try desperately not to let it drive him crazy.

[19:53]Well I hope you I mean I'm sure you don't but I hope you bring these characters back in some way shape or form I know it.

[20:00]like tied up with such a neat sort of bow at the end.

[20:02]It was like, oh, well, so well done.

[20:04]But I would love to see like what it's like next.

[20:07]Like what happens next?

[20:09]And like, I don't know.

[20:10]What if they decide to have a child or like,

[20:13]I don't know.

[20:13]I just feel like you should keep these guys going.

[20:16]Oh, are you still there?

[20:17]I guess Paul had to go.

[20:19]But anyway, I was recommending to him

[20:21]that he, I think he should keep his characters going.

[20:24]And they are amazing.

[20:27]And the book was fantastic.

[20:28]And I'm sorry we didn't get to hear if he's working

[20:31]on anything new.

[20:32]And I'm sorry he didn't get to add any advice.

[20:35]But I love chatting with him about playing the palace.

[20:38]And thank you to Paul for joining.

[20:41]And thank you all for listening.

[20:43]Bye.

[20:44]Thanks for listening to part of my June book blast.

[20:47]I hope you enjoy it.

[20:48]Come back tomorrow for more.

[20:51]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.

[20:53]Don't have time to read books.

[20:55]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,

[20:57]at zibi Owens, and at Moms.

[20:58]Don't have time to read books.

[21:00]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com

[21:02]and sign up for my virtual book club

[21:04]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.

[21:07]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound

[21:09]for the Sound Editing.

[21:10]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions

[21:12]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.