Lindsey Palmer, OTHERWISE ENGAGED: A NOVEL

[2:01]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, moms don't have time to read books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a New Publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. Another day of the June Book Blast! Today is family related fiction, and I hope you enjoy these episodes. Lindsay Palmer is the author of Otherwise Engaged. She also wrote If We Lived Here and Pretty in Inc. She's the senior editor at BrainPOP, an animated educational site for kids which by the way if you haven't checked out, my kids love so you should definitely check that out with your kids. BrainPOP. Anyway, previously, she was a high school English teacher and a magazine editor. Lindsay usually lives in Brooklyn, but has temporarily relocated to Cape Cod along with her husband and daughter. Welcome, Lindsay. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here, and I'm grateful for you and your role as an advocate for authors and books. It's it's so wonderful everything you've done. Thank you. That's so nice. PS, I love that otherwise engaged cover now matches the wall behind you and even the matching lamp shade on that cool lamp. That's and it happens to be like my favorite color. So there you go. Oh, I didn't even think about that, but that's right. I should just, you know, display it all around this turquoise Live in your book cover. I mean, immersive experience, you might as well. So for people who are not familiar yet with what Otherwise Engaged is about, could you tell them a little bit more about the plot and then also what inspired you to write it? Sure.

[3:54]Lindsey Palmer: So the protagonist of Otherwise Engaged is Molly. And very early on in the book, she and her boyfriend Gabe get engaged. And then very quickly, she discovers that he has been writing this novel that happens to be a thinly veiled retelling of his relationship with his ex, whose name is Talia, and he barely even changes her name in his novel version. Her name is Dalia. And this book becomes this big hit, and then his ex shows back up on the scene and it causes all kinds of distress and basically leads to a real unraveling for Molly as they are also planning this wedding that may or may not happen. That's kind of the premise. Actually, interestingly, the title of the book came to me first and actually it was on the plane ride home from my own honeymoon. Yeah, I mean, was someone who, like a lot of people, was excited to get married, but wasn't really into the wedding planning aspect of it. It just was not my thing at all. And I found it stressful and overwhelming. And in addition to the wedding planning, I found that period of life to be kind of stressful and overwhelming. All the kind of messaging that's coming at you from the world, wedding venues, from friends and acquaintances is that this is the most exciting thing. It's the pinnacle. It's this moment of commitment to this relationship and this new chapter. And I think it leads to a lot of stress and questioning. And for me personally, there was a lot of intense stuff going on. I taught for a few years, I was a high school teacher in a public school in Manhattan, and I was new to teaching. So that was kind of intense. I was on very tight deadlines for my second novel at the time. My now husband was unemployed for a period of time. So there was a lot going on that added to all of this. And when I just started talking to other people, I realized that for a lot of people, they found this to be a kind of tumultuous, difficult time. So I wanted to explore that in fiction, and I wanted to think about how I could really raise the stakes. And it felt like finding out that your new fiance has written this novel about their ex was a way to do that. And additionally, I'd written a couple of previous novels where a lot of the events in the novels were based on my own experiences. And I saw when the books came out, when people who knew me or who were involved in these experiences that the novel's events were based on reacted to them or asked questions and wondered what was real, what was not, how things were reinterpreted in fiction. I was interested in that and felt sympathetic to that experience of what it might be like to have a writer in your life who's kind of picking from real life and putting it into their fiction. And so I wanted to explore that too. So that's a big piece of this, where the protagonist is reading her fiance's book and saying, how much of this is real and how much isn't and how much does that matter? And at first, she wasn't even sure she even liked the way he wrote.

[6:44]Zibby Owens: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that was actually a part I mean, that was fun for me to do, to have this, you know, kind of fictional book within a book and thinking about how this character would portray that. I know. I was thinking as I was reading, it's similar there was a similar have you read the plot by Jean Hand Corleett? I haven't, but it's on my list. Everyone keeps recommending But it also has literally like yours, books within books and like segments like yours at the beginning and with, you know, all these all these passages that you excerpt, but that you also write, which I think is such a it's like you writing two different books. It's great because you get the reader Yeah, it was really fun. I mean, again, because it's also mean, a piece of it is really kind of poking fun at a certain type of male writer who portrays women in this way that doesn't necessarily ring true to to women. So I had fun with playing. And yet when her her ex sort of comes back on the scene and points that out, that he is that type of reader, she gets, like, so offended by it, even though deep down, that's probably what she's thinking herself. Right. It's like the whole, I can make fun of my mom, but nobody else can thing. Right? The protective instinct you get when somebody comes after somebody in your orbit. And you you did such a nice job also of that feeling as a woman where you have to wait to be proposed to. And like you think that every moment could be the setup for this like huge event in your life and then you're disappointed. And I love how Molly kept regrouping. Like, okay, this is perfect. We're sitting here and like, it couldn't be better. We have champagne and weed and whatever else that he made for their own perfect moment. No, not happening. Okay. Moving right along. Yeah.

[8:21]Lindsey Palmer: And I think and she has enough self awareness at least in this month to know that she should feel sort of pathetic about that, that it's silly that that's the way it is. But unless you want to be the type of woman to propose, and most people are not, you can be in that situation if you feel like you're ready for it and you've talked about it, but when is it coming? And in the end, you know, it really disappoints her how it happens, which, you know, things don't always go in that kind of picture book Yeah. She's like, oh, really? This?

[8:50]Zibby Owens: This is the thing with Yeah. On the subway. But it is this sort of, you know, even in today's modern world of equality and blah, blah, blah, feminism, there are women, just wait and wait to be sort of swept off our feet in the old fashioned way. Even with the awareness, it's still not a 100% okay to be like, Oh yeah, I totally proposed to my husband.

[9:14]Lindsey Palmer: Yeah. Yeah. And I will say that that kind of experience is somewhat based on my personal proposal experience, which is that my now husband and I went on this beautiful trip to Greece. And we talked about, as most people do in this day and age, that we were heading in that direction. And I really thought at every moment on this trip that we were gonna get engaged, and we didn't. And then the morning after we came home, when we were so jet lagged and we were up so early and we went up to the roof of our building to watch the sunrise, and that is when it happened. And then later, my husband admitted that he'd actually carried the ring through this whole trip, for the right moment that just kind of didn't come. And decided it would be better to do it in our environment, which in the end was a really sweet story. But at the time, I was like, wow, we're in these gorgeous beaches. Here we are in the special place. And it didn't come. And

[10:12]Zibby Owens: it didn't work out that way. I know there's so much expectation. Even my babysitter recently, she was going to Hawaii or something with her boyfriend and we're all like, Oh, trip to Hawaii. What do you think? It's so awkward that she comes home like, Well, yeah. Anyway, I know I remember when I was like I got married pretty young, I guess, relative to other people the first time. Anyway, and we went to this like gorgeous, you know, Costa Rican thing after a wedding we had gone to. And I remembered when we were checking in, I was like, okay, I have a total right to be annoyed if it doesn't happen while we're here. Like this would like I am justified in being disappointed because like, look at this. And you know, anyway, it did end up happening again. Yeah. It did? Okay. It was fine. But anyway, Now I don't even basically remember my second proposal. But anyway, second marriage is not the same thing. Well, I have to say, like, you write in a very beautiful literary way. One that I I wasn't necessarily expecting from, like, the cover. Do you know I mean? Like, This is not read just a of a romance of people getting This is like, you're a really good writer. It's very literary. The prose and the language and how you describe everything and the dialogue and all of it. It's very literary. So anyway, take that for whatever.

[11:32]Lindsey Palmer: Well, thank you. I will say, I mean, I've gotten reactions from people who did see the cover and I think we're expecting you know, more of a beach read. And it is about relationships. And I mean, personally, that's what I like to read on the beach, but I understand it's not the kind of traditional, everything is tied up in a bow and happy ending. And so that's kind of interesting. And I thought about that. I mean, of course, there's the expression don't judge a book by a cover, but we all do. And so how do your expectations of what you're gonna read shape the reading experience? If you are expecting that and wanting that, you might be disappointed. So I guess that's a warning to people who might think this. No, no. I mean, it's not I don't mean it in any sort of judgment way. Just I don't know. Anyway. And Skyhorse is your publisher too because they published my anthologies. Yes. We we share an editor. Yes. Caroline. He's wonderful. Awesome.

[12:22]Zibby Owens: So did you actually I'm just curious now that we're talking about the cover. Did you pick the cover or how did that all happen? Like I didn't pick the cover. The I they sent it to me and I I loved it. I think it's kind of a fun, like, retro- I love the cover too, by the way. I don't mean to be makey. No, no, no. That's okay. I agree with you, though. It's not

[12:41]Lindsey Palmer: necessarily a mismatch, but it does, I guess, highlight a certain aspect of the book and not kind of the whole thing. I love actually when it first came out, I was seeing all these selfies from librarians all over Instagram, where they would hold up the hand from the book and the rest of their arm, which I always love those. I think they're called shelfies. Yeah. But they sent me the image, and I just thought it was great. I mean, I'm not a super visual thinker, so I'm always happy to just kind of trust the artists. Yeah, I mean, the funny cover My first novel, Pretty in Ink, when it came out, I remember, you know, it's like a woman sitting at a desk and holding a magazine open. And when I went to the publisher's party, I happened to run into an acquaintance and she said, Did you recognize my legs on the cover? And I said, What do you mean? And she had been the one posing for the cover. So that's my funny cover story. So I don't know whose hand this is on this cover. Maybe one day I will come across an acquaintance who tells me, did you recognize my hand? Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[16:46]Lindsey Palmer: You mentioned that your other novels were based on your own life experiences. What experiences were those? So my first novel is called Pretty in Ink, and it's kind of, I would say, half satire, half love letter to the magazine industry. I worked for many years as an editor at women's magazines, and it sort of captures the moment of decline. I mean, every magazine that I worked at, Glamour, Red Book, and Self no longer exists, which is kind of shocking to me, but also not shocking to the world. So that novel takes place at a women's magazine that is frantically trying to stay relevant in a post 2,008 world. And then my second novel is called If We Lived Here, and it's a couple moving in for the first time, having this horrendous New York City apartment hunt, which I feel like everyone who's lived in New York City has those kinds of stories. And the couple is not my now husband and me, but it is based on a lot of apartment hunting experiences we had when we first moved in together. And we ended up in housing court for a couple of years, like battling a landlord. We signed a lease and then quickly discovered there were bedbugs in this apartment and tried to get out of the lease. He didn't give us our money back and we took them to court. We did eventually win, but it took about a year and a half. My god. Oh, good for you for going to court. I was just like Thanks. In the end, when I, like, actually calculated, like, how much time and effort I was putting into it, but it just it felt like the principle of the matter. I was like, we will get our money back. Good for you. That's amazing. So what's your process like when you're working on a novel? What's your writing process like? I'm not a big planner. I feel like a kind of idea and the characters come to me and I have a vague idea of where I'm going. I often think that I wish I could outline. I think people who can outline maybe get from point A to point B a lot easier, whereas it takes me a while to like figure out what the story is. But I feel like as long as I'm interested in who the characters are and what the scenario is, that's enough to sort of carry me. And so I generally, I try to write for a couple of chunks on weekend mornings and one night a week, I don't always stick to that, but that's the time I'm able to carve out. Yeah, I'm definitely a believer in multiple drafts. Like, I feel like I get closer and closer to the story and often I'm even changing kind of big chunks in later stages. But that goes back to, I think, not outlining, like sort of figuring out the story as I go along. Do you have a day job? Is that why these are? Yeah. I work at this company called Brain Pop. Oh, that's right. I read that. I read that. My kids love that, by the way. I was going to say you have kids of the age. It's kind of like upper elementary, middle school. Yeah. No. Yes. In fact, I'm so glad I asked even though I knew that and I meant to ask you about it because I was like, that's so cool. They're going think this is science.

[19:30]Zibby Owens: Yeah. They come home from school, they watch it at school. Like they'll watch one in science and they'll come home and then they'll show me like what they watched and then we watch another. Anyway.

[19:38]Lindsey Palmer: Yeah, they're really fun. It's a fun job. So I write those scripts or I edit the scripts. And it means that, you know, I'm always working on different topics. So I'm always learning new things, which is also serves me in fiction because I know like a little bit about a lot of things. And so I can kind of pull facts out, which is nice. But yeah, it's a fun job. It's after I taught, it was a nice way to stay in education, but not come home with like stacks of papers to grade at the end of the day. What's one that you've written recently that I can go that I can show them? Let's see. Figurative language recently came out where Tim is like an advertising executive trying to come up with campaign slogans for one of the other characters, Cassie, who's running for class president. Love it. Tulsa Race Massacre is coming out next week because it's the hundredth anniversary. That's a much heavier topic. Okay.

[20:25]Zibby Owens: Figurative language with Cassie and Tammy. Oh, great. Awesome. So neat.

[20:29]Lindsey Palmer: Love it. So are you working on a new novel now? So I just finished a novel that is now out to potential editors, so fingers crossed. That's tentatively called Reservations for Six. And it's about like six best friends, three married couples who for the past decade have gotten together for every one of their birthdays at the same restaurant. They have this tradition and the first of their group is turning 40 and it opens at his fortieth birthday at this restaurant and he announces that he wants to get a divorce. And so the rest of the novel follows the following year and sort of how this announcement ripples through their group of friends. I really was interested in thinking, after otherwise engaged, after the stage of like everyone I know getting married happened, slowly people start getting divorced and thinking about how, of course that affects the couple, but also that couple's orbit and their group of friends. So that's what this novel is about. Well, if you need any more research. Good to know. I Thank

[21:28]Zibby Owens: have to say, even though stereotyp not stereotypically, but the common even though you think that you hear that when you get a divorce, your friends will, you know, choose sides, leave you and whatever, it was such a surprise at least to me what exactly ended up happening in people's responses and who ended up being loyal and who like didn't. And that was actually one of the harder parts of the whole thing was not knowing who you could really trust and rethinking all sorts of relationships in the wake of another one being completely sort of decimated. So it's sort of a,

[22:04]Lindsey Palmer: a rebel falling on top of somebody who's already been downed by an earthquake or something. It's just more to get out from under. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot. And I mean, I don't have that experience personally, but from the other side of if you're friends with both people trying to navigate that and wanting to be supportive and there for people and thinking through, like, who's your closer friend? Like, who are you gonna sometimes surprising, like, how it ends up. That's true. Wow.

[22:30]Zibby Owens: By the way, I loved the agent character in this book and how he didn't even punctuate his words. Love, Dalia, let's talk or whatever. I just thought that was so great. She's like, Don't you want an editor who has Getting stop to write an email or an agent rather. Sorry. Anyway, that was very clever. Thank you. I feel like people are very stylized. Like, even they're like, I know the rules of grammar, but this is how I do it on email or this is how I do it on I'm or whatever. That's true. No. You have a very clever sort of way of observing the world, which you put in lots of places. Although I feel like if I were Molly, I would not want to be called Molly Moo, I have to say. I feel like that's like a bit pejorative or something.

[23:10]Lindsey Palmer: Anyway, do you have advice for aspiring authors? I knew you were going to ask this because I love listening to your podcast. No, it's great. I love hearing everybody else's advice. And I guess what I would say is to really be kind to yourself, which I know is like much easier said than done. I would give this advice to aspiring writers and myself too. I think it's very easy, especially when you're first drafting something page to page, even like sentence to sentence to just be disappointed in what you're coming up with and feel really down on yourself, especially if you're a big reader, which most writers are, and you're reading really wonderful prose in the pages of your favorite writer's books. And I think that really can get away, sorry, get in the way of your process. Like it gets in the way of being creative and playing on the page. And so if you can just kind of practice self compassion and trust the process and know that you're going to keep working on this and it is going to get better, then I think that frees you up to be able to work and not just kind of feel down on yourself. So I don't think writing gets easier over time, but I do feel like the more experienced you are, the more you can trust that and know your clunky, terrible first draft is going to get better. And so I think that is helpful and it's useful to know early on that being nice to yourself is helpful and will make the process more satisfying and

[24:34]Zibby Owens: go more smoothly. So that's what I'd say. Excellent. I love that. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Don't have time to read books. Thank you for being a listener too. That's awesome. I love when I hear that authors are listeners because I don't know. I just do. It makes me really happy.

[24:49]Lindsey Palmer: Thanks By for having

[24:50]Zibby Owens: the way, you have the best titles. So Reservations for Six I is just love it. Like all of your titles are so clever. That's great.

[24:58]Lindsey Palmer: Can't wait. Thank you. Okay.

[25:00]Zibby Owens: All right. Take care. Take care. You too. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to part of my June Book Blast. I hope you enjoy it. Come back tomorrow for more.

[25:30]Zibby Owens: and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.