Naima Coster, WHAT'S MINE AND YOURS

[1:09]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, moms don't have time to read books. I'm also the host of moms don't have time to lose weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy called moms don't have time Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Another day of the June book blast. Today is family related fiction, and I hope you enjoy these episodes. Nyema Coster is the author of What's Mine and A Novel. Nyema is the author of two novels actually. Her debut is Halsey Street, which was a finalist for the 2018 Kirkus Prize for fiction and was long listed for the VCU Cabell or Cable, I don't know, First Novelist Award. It was recommended as a must read by People, Essence, Bitch Media, Well Read Black Girl, The Skim, and the Brooklyn Public Library among others. Naima's stories and essays have appeared in the New York Times, Quelley, The Paris Review, Daily, The Cut, The Sunday Times, Catapult, The Rumpus, and elsewhere. She is a National Book Foundation Five under 35 honoree for 2020. Naima has taught writing for over a decade in community settings, youth programs, and universities. Most recently, she has taught writing in the MFA programs at the City College of New York, Antioch University in LA, and the University of Michigan. Naima also writes the newsletter, Bloom How You Must. She currently lives in Brooklyn with her family. Welcome, Naima. Thank you so much for coming on mom's time time to read books to discuss what's mine and yours. Thank you so much for having me, Zibby. I'm delighted that this copy of the book that I'm holding is mine. So not yours. This one's mine. Yeah. So congratulations on it being a read with Jenna pick and bestseller and all of that. Must feel so exciting. Is it just amazing? Are you really hap I mean, I know your last book, Halsey Street, was also it's like so well received and everything. So

[3:14]Naima Coster: wow. It's totally amazing. It's been wonderful to watch readers find the book and was really cool to talk to Jenna Bush Hager for The Today Show. So it's been a dreamy experience. Feel very lucky. That's awesome. Would you mind giving just like the elevator pitch of what this is about for would be readers who haven't read it yet who are listening now? Absolutely. What's Mine and Yours is the story of two families that are brought together when a local public high school becomes integrated in a North Carolina city. One family is headed by a woman named Jade who suffered a terrible loss and wants to make sure her son is able to have a good life despite everything that's been taken away from him. And she supports the integration. And another family is headed by a woman named Lacey Mae whose husband is in and out of her life and she's struggling financially to provide for her three girls and she chooses to oppose the integration.

[4:08]Zibby Owens: Awesome. Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry. You've probably done that a thousand times, but, you know, thousand and one. Here you go.

[4:15]Naima Coster: Yeah. No. It's good. It's good. There's a lot going on in the book. So happy to give a little overview.

[4:21]Zibby Owens: One of the elements that I thought was particularly interesting was the way you portrayed men. And I know that there's a lot of backstory with you and your your own mother and your daughter and your background. I do wanna talk about all that. But I also think that the way men come across from Ray and how fully formed he was and then eventually G, G or G G. Right? G? G. Yes. And even how for Noelle's miscarriage when she's talking about Norman, right? I hope I'm getting all names right. When you said he's not as unbreakable as he seems, right? Like that the men also have like really big feelings about all of this stuff. So I just kind of loved seeing all those relationships and, you know, even Ray being a stand in father, but not blood father and how that relationship works. Anyway, just maybe talk a little bit about

[5:12]Naima Coster: men in your book. Yeah. Well, it's interesting to hear you say that because I definitely start with the women. Like I started with the mothers, Jade and Lacey Mae, and I tend to write about women. But for this book, which I imagined as a family saga, looking at these two families, I knew that they had to do right by all of the different family members. And I'm really fascinated by how the secrets of people in a family, whether it's things that they're ashamed of or things that they're dreaming of, end up affecting everyone else in the family system, even if it never comes to light. And so one of the pleasures of writing was getting into the minds of each of these characters and revealing them to the reader in ways that they don't exactly end up being known by one another.

[5:58]Zibby Owens: Love that. Yeah. Even just all these little details about them. Anyway, it didn't take away obviously from the women who were the central figures, but I don't know. Often the men are just sort of like, you know, supporting characters, if you will. Right? Like, off on the side, and they have their own big feelings. Anyway, I just Yes. I just really like that. So I'm so glad. Thank you. So there are a lot of complicated mother, daughter, mother, son, mother, everything relationships in here. And you've written a lot and so beautifully, by the way, in Elle and Time and the cut like, all these places about your own experience. Would you mind talking a little bit more about your own sort of intergenerational trauma and your mother and sort of the abuse that went along with that and how your books sometimes are more optimistic because even the it the the idea of finding love is even something that you find hard to imagine, if you will. So not to Yeah. Not to go into your personal life to start. But anyway, if you wouldn't mind talking about it. Yeah. Well, I am very interested in what gets passed down from generation to generation, like the hard things

[7:07]Naima Coster: that are transmitted and how people try to find their lives after that. You know, something that I hear sometimes from readers is that my work is tough or heavy and the lives of the characters are tough and heavy. And that's certainly true in What's Mine and Yours, where, you know, one mother loses her partner. It's not that big of a spoiler because it happens in the first chapter. And then another mother doesn't also have support. But I do think a lot about what these characters do despite what's been taken from them. And that is love and connection, which isn't something that I always had in my upbringing. And so I've written about what it's like to be a mother who's estranged from her own mother. And so I think that I process that in some ways by writing fiction about difficult, messy relationships, but relationships that in some way are more than what I got in life because the flawed and troubled mothers also deeply want to be connected to their children, which I think is the beautiful thing. And I think is something we assume is universal and is certainly common, but it's not everybody's story and is not my story. So I think I'm always writing about children who long for their parents. But I guess the way maybe I revise my life story is there are parents who are also longing for privately and then outwardly really working to be connected to their kids. Wow. At the end of that essay, by the way, when you said you were after the labor and you were holding your daughter and you were like, all I want is just for her to know that I'm here. Oh, it was really beautiful. Mean, really beautiful. Awesome. And how you're like so sad sending her to daycare. Sorry. I did like a deep dive into your life because I was like, this is all so good. Yeah. Well, it was funny sending her off to daycare because, you know, it ended up being different at different points, but at the very beginning, she was just sort of like, bye mommy. I was like very happy to go. And it was hard for me. One of the things I write about it is like, well, she feels secure and stable and knows that the bond is here And I'm the one who sort of feels scared

[9:22]Zibby Owens: at the separation because of like my own life. So that was sort of a illuminating moment for me. I feel the same way sometimes. I'm like, I know I'm trying to raise independent kids and all, but like, shouldn't she want me to be in the room with her? Like, what do you mean, mom, I'm okay. You can leave. Like, what? Okay. I mean, sure. I guess I did a good job then that you don't wanna be with me right this second.

[9:44]Naima Coster: Totally.

[9:45]Zibby Owens: Totally. Just curious. Do you have any plans to write a memoir? I feel like you have so many personal stories that are are very ripe for, you know, more digging.

[9:55]Naima Coster: You know, I've thought about it. I think it's possible, but it's not a solid plan that I have. I mean, I feel very drawn to the fiction because I find that it can be a good way to sift through things that I don't fully understand. Whereas I go to write an essay once I've already sort of finished my thinking about something. Like I never write non fiction about something that's in progress or fresh. So I find that I have this habit of living through a set of questions and feelings and experiences. And then after two or three years of that, I'd say, I should write a book. And then I write a novel that doesn't tell my story, but that picks up all those themes and questions.

[10:37]Zibby Owens: And you wrote about sending your mom Halsey Street and how she didn't read it at first and then she did and just like a pretty horrific response at the end and it caused your estrangement. How do you then go on to write a second book or another story with that as the backdrop? I mean, that's like a very that's a lot of responsibility for a book a relationship, right? And of course you did nothing. I mean, it was fiction. Right.

[11:05]Naima Coster: Well, I think that that's a part of it that knowing that like the book isn't the actual problem in any way. And I talk about how that book is, you know, rather than say slamming anybody, it's like wish fulfillment of a mother and daughter who find their way back to one another. But I do think it's an option for me not to write. It feels so connected to who I am and what's a part of me. And I think that the book was just sort of like a cipher for being someone who hopes to tell the truth, even if that is in a difficult conversation, in a letter or in fiction. Like I think I love writing fiction because I feel that I'm telling emotional truths and sometimes I need to make stuff up. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

[11:54]Zibby Owens: And you you wrote this other essay when you said about writing. You said self doubt is central to my way of being and my writing is not immune. Do you still do you still doubt yourself even despite your success and everything?

[12:07]Naima Coster: Totally. Absolutely. You know, I feel that I'm gonna start my third book this summer. And there's so many things I know about it. And there's so many things that I don't know. And how could I know? Like books are very long, like the outline I have on my computer doesn't capture the fullness of the project. And so I feel excited, but I also feel scared that I won't be able to pull it off or figure it out. And it's been helpful for me to know that that feeling is just a feeling and that actually, there's no way predicts what the meaning of the book will be. And it's something I hear from other writers, including my students. Like my students will say to me, I don't know what I'm doing and I feel lost. And I say, sounds right. Like sounds like you're building a big complicated thing and the feelings are just a part of it, part of the territory. I'm starting to feel like authors have more

[13:00]Zibby Owens: sort of self doubt. Like they trust the process less than like anybody else in the world. Or maybe it's just because I interview authors all the time. But what you just said about pulling it off, I think every author is like, Oh, phew, I did it. I managed to do it. And it's like, Well, what do you mean? You're a gifted writer. You are going to do it, but nobody has that attitude. It's like this elusive thing. Like, did I do it or did I not? Can it come back? Like, where is it from? I don't know. It's like hard to articulate.

[15:45]Naima Coster: I mean, I think the questioning is really important and is partially what makes books have the capacity to surprise us, right? Like, I didn't question any of my choices about the characters or the plot, I don't think that, you know, any of my books would contain those moments that change a reader's sense of the people they're following, you know, or or challenge expectations. So I think that that questioning actually makes the writing better. Interesting.

[16:13]Zibby Owens: Yeah. Tell me a little bit more speaking of characters and getting to know them more. I feel like and not to give anything away, but when G ends up after a I don't know if I can say or whatever. Not that it's a surprise, but when he is going through a very difficult time in a very sterile like setting and she has to come rescue him, if you will, and figure out everything, I feel like it showed a different side of her sort of mothering than I had seen previously. Was that intentional or it just like happened or am I wrong? No.

[16:47]Naima Coster: No. I don't think you're wrong. You know, I think with both of these mothers, I was so interested in exploring what they knew how to give their kids and what they didn't know how to give their kids, which I think is certainly true for me and true for so many mothers. So for Jay, G's mother, one thing that she knows how to do is champion his future. So she supports the integration. She wants to make sure her kid isn't left out and has opportunity. And she's fierce in so many ways, but he just sort of experiences that as humiliating. Like he wants to blend into the school and he is already an outsider because he's a young black boy, because he has this difficult family history. He's from the wrong side of town. But when he is hurt, let's say, and his mother has to show up to care for him, she's still basically, I think knows how to show her care by like fighting with the doctors and her internal world in that moment, I think is filled with fear and tenderness for her son who she sees has been harmed. And she doesn't just want him to have a good life and a good job. She wants him to be safe and to be well. But I think externally it still sort of comes off as her being tough in a fighter. You know, she doesn't take him in her arms.

[18:08]Zibby Owens: That's interesting. So interesting. Did you always know you wanted to write? Like, when did this all did you always know? Like and and when you get ideas for characters, which is a totally different question, but how do they appear to you? Like, how did Jade maybe do that one first. Okay. Like, how did Jade she appear to you, like, fully formed? Did you know her in relation to her loss? Like, in the way that a mom has to grieve and that's like a whole another, like, great amazing thing you had throughout the book, which is so relevant particularly now. But, like, how do they how do they come to you? I think characters come to me through their situations.

[18:45]Naima Coster: So they don't come fully formed. I think about the pressures that they're under and what they have to carry and then go from there. So for Jade, I knew I wanted to write about a woman who'd lost her partner, who had an ambivalent relationship to the child she already had, but now had to figure out a way to step up and sort of fill the role that her partner had filled. And then for Lacey Mae, I wanted to write about a woman who felt really isolated in the role of wife and mother and who had to take care of her kids while being in love with their father. And so that situation was interesting to me. And then everything sort of grew from there, but that's how they really start. Like I say to myself, like, what would it be like to be in this position?

[19:35]Zibby Owens: Interesting. Okay. So back to my first question now that I'm jumping all over the place. When did you realize that you were a lover of of writing and all of that? I think I knew in girlhood,

[19:46]Naima Coster: but I lied to myself about it for a long time. So, you know, I always had a practice of writing that became more serious when I was in high school. Like I wrote my first collection of short stories in high school, which I printed and bound at Kinko's, I still have it on my shelf. But if you asked me at the time, I'd say, I'm going to be a doctor. And I like did pre med in college and applied to med school and got in and the whole thing and then deferred one year and then deferred another year because I kept telling myself that writing was something I would do, but I would do it sort of on the side or as a hobby, because I felt that I should do something more stable and like recognizable to my family and lucrative and all of these things. And then eventually I just said like, No, I'm gonna build my life around the writing and figure out how to pursue that. But it took a while. I think I was maybe 23 or 24. It took a while because I started writing at like seven. It was still relatively

[20:49]Zibby Owens: early in life. I'm like, It took a while. I don't know. 23. Wow. Well, now I feel like there's some context for Doctor. Henriques and, like, his role in this book. So it was a little scary for for him. Wow. Didn't you go to Yale? I think I read that. Did you go there? I did go to Yale. Yeah. I went to Yale too. Yeah. I know. I was in Davenport anyway. As in TD. Awesome. I was definitely not pre med though. I I took like the one gut science class, electrical engineering or whatever, just to get past that requirement. But Yeah. Mine was fake pre med. I was very checked out the whole time. And did you also love to read?

[21:29]Naima Coster: Yes, I loved reading. I was an English and African American studies major so that I could just have books all the time. And books were just such good company to me. You know, like I was a lonely kid in many ways at home and at school and books were just a way to feel connected.

[21:48]Zibby Owens: I love that. Yeah. Books are I had someone say to me once, like, can never be lonely if you're reading a good book. And I just love that because you're constantly surrounded by other voices and feelings and people and experiences and all of that. So are you reading anything good now? I am. Right now I'm reading The Lying Life of Adults by Elena Ferrante. I missed it when it came out. I've had it on my night table for a long time. I just love her. I love

[22:16]Naima Coster: how wild her characters can be in terms of their emotions and the pitch of their emotions. And I find it really inspiring. I'm always thinking as a writer about how to capture like the heat of life on the page, which is I think something I wasn't taught to do. Like, I think I was taught to like write cool and submerge feelings and avoid melodrama, but I'm actually really interested in showing how people argue and how people fight and have sex and

[22:47]Zibby Owens: have emotional outbursts. And I feel like Ferrante is great for looking at all of that. I was actually I just before you interviewed Tia Williams who wrote seven days in June and other novels, I told her I was about to interview you. And she was talking about sort of the role of being a black author and how she worries that it's like too flippant almost, right, that she's doing these love stories and whatever. And I said I had read that you had said, you know, should you be doing a better job at sort of creating black joy or were your books too dark and how there's almost like no happy medium. Like, you're both like these accomplished beautiful writers who are like doubting if you're doing it the right way. What do you think about that? Well, I think that there's a lot of pressure, black writers and writers of color, just such an expectation

[23:35]Naima Coster: for what the narratives can and will do. And it's pressure that no one book can hold. And so I think that, you know, we deserve like all the stories and all kinds of stories, you know? And so, you know, I write from a personal set of urgencies, like things that I want explore, like intergenerational trauma, and familial estrangement and how people build their families back up after their dreams are interrupted. And hopefully there are people who want to read about that. And if they don't, they don't have to, or they can read about that and read romance, because we contain multitudes. But I do sort of think about that pressure to produce a story that will be resonant, that will be meaningful. But I can't say that I follow that pressure at all so much as I feel it and I'm aware of it. Interesting.

[24:26]Zibby Owens: Well, do you have any advice for aspiring authors? I know you've already sprinkled in a lot, which was really great.

[24:31]Naima Coster: Yeah, well, I think I spoke to it a little bit before, but maybe this is a slightly different spin on it. I'd say that it's important to know that whatever feelings come up when you're writing are just feelings and in no way reflect the merits of your project. So, I know so many writers who will say like, Oh, what I'm writing is trash. And what they mean is that like, it felt hard to write it, which is just a feeling and doesn't reflect anything about the work. And I guess the flip side of that is, having a great writing session where you feel like you're on fire and you're brilliant. It doesn't mean that the work is yet brilliant, but as much as possible, just to treat the feelings as part of the experience, but to try to disentangle them from what's on the page. I think that helps revise more clearly, but I also think it just makes the writing process more bearable and helps you focus less on evaluating

[25:28]Zibby Owens: what you're doing and just staying in the work. Well, I think that's really good advice for life in general too. I mean, if I could do that with my own feelings about a lot of things, I'd be much better off. So widely applicable advice. Well, thank you for coming on. Not that I need to say this or I don't mean this to sound in any way like that. I don't even know what the word is, but I'm just really sorry that your mom did not appreciate you the way you deserve to be treated and loved and celebrated. And that's something that's really hard and you write about it with such honesty and soul and heart. And I just wish it had been different for you. So I'm sorry. Thank you for that, Zibby. I think it's really hard to

[26:12]Naima Coster: like hold that pain, which is I think why, you know, as I've written, people are just like, oh no, like maybe things will change or she'll come around. So I think it's really important like not to look away and to leave space for that. So thanks. Thank you for that. Sure.

[26:29]Zibby Owens: Alright. Well, thank you. Thanks for coming on, and good luck with your with your next book. I can't wait to read it. Alright. Thank you so much. Take care, Zvi. You too. Bye bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to part of my June Book Blast. I hope you enjoy it. Come back tomorrow for more. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.