Craig Kessler, THE DAD ADVICE PROJECT: Words of Wisdom From Guys Who Love Being Dads

[1:49]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zoe Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time To Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. If And all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram ZibbyOwens and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. Special announcement, I am teaming up with Katie Couric Media's Wake Up Call and Random House to give away 100 copies of the book Stranger Care by Sarah Santillis. I'm really excited about this. Here's a little about Sarah's book, and we collectively are giving away a 100 copies. After their decision not to have a biological child, Sarah Santilles and her husband, Eric, decide to adopt via the foster care system. Despite knowing that the system's goal is the child's reunification with the birth family, Sarah opens their home to a flurry of social workers who question them, evaluate them, and ultimately prepare them to welcome a child into their lives even if it means most likely having to give the child back. Stranger care is an illuminating read, and Sarah will be on this podcast soon. So if you would like to enter for a chance to win, please go to the link in the episode description from right where you clicked on it and enter your email address first and last name. By doing so you're agreeing to the sweepstakes official rules and agree to receive communications and special offers from Katie Couric's wake up call and moms don't have time to read books. Thank you for doing it and enter to win today. Just go back to the episode description. Thanks again. Craig Kessler is the author of the Dad Advice Project, Words of Wisdom from Guys Who Love Being Dads. Born and raised in San Diego, Craig attended Georgetown University before starting a career in business, the early years of which he spent working in consulting and private equity. After marrying his high school girlfriend, he attended Harvard Business School. Several years after graduating, he was offered the chance of a lifetime to help lead a business called Topgolf. At the time, he was 31 years old. With a bit of luck and a series of incredible mentors, he was off to the races, helping to lead one of the fastest growing sports and entertainment companies in the world. And along the way, two things happened. First, he and his wife had three children, all boys, and all within four years. And he realized early on that he had a lot to learn about raising kids. Second, he developed friendships with remarkable people, many of them dads and granddads who are willing to share tips and tricks about fatherhood. Welcome, Craig. Thanks so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books to discuss the dad advice project, words of wisdom from guys who love being dads. It's great to be here, Zibby. Thanks for having me on. No problem. I'm so glad we met on our little clubhouse call because I do so few of those because it's just not my, like, preferred medium. So it feels like magic when a real person sort of emerges afterwards.

[4:49]Craig Kessler: I well, I'll tell you what. It's the only clubhouse I've ever done, and it was a cool experience, but I agree. It's it's nice to be able to see your face. Yes.

[4:58]Zibby Owens: Anyway, okay, the dad advice project. So for people who aren't familiar with your book, would you mind explaining sort of how it came to be, how you got the idea for this, and what some of the best advice you think in the book is to help other dads? Yeah, happy to.

[5:13]Craig Kessler: In the spirit of vulnerability, I don't have the closest relationship with my dad, which is a bummer for a bunch of reasons. And on a personal note, my wife and I have three boys. They're one, four, and five. So we're in the thick of it. The energy levels are through the roof, as you can imagine. And about two and a half years ago, we had two kids at the time. I asked a handful of buddies to write me a letter on how to be a good dad. And I did it because that was a little bit of a void in my life. So what I got back was unbelievable. It ranged from David Letterman style top 10 lists that were hilarious and thoughtful to letters these guys wrote their kids and everything in between. And over the last two and a half years, the project snowballed and with some encouragement from a few of my co authors, they said, dude, why you turn this into a book? Even though that was never really the intent. And we pitched it to a bunch of publishers. They all told us that the difference between women and men is that women actually want to hear advice from other women and dudes just want to hear the sound of their own voice. Nobody's going read your book, I which found kind of interesting because I think the modern dad today is actually far more interested in talking about the ups and downs of parenthood than maybe they were ten, fifteen years ago. And we discovered a publisher that was really pumped about the content and the book launched just a couple of weeks ago. So exciting. Which publisher did you go with? Yeah. It's it's a publisher called Post Hill Press, and they've done some wonderful books, mostly in the self improvement category, and they're really fired up about this one.

[6:49]Zibby Owens: I view that advice that you got as very shortsighted. I don't think that that's accurate at all based on the subset of men that I know who are dads. You know, it's one thing to use those stereotypes about, like, asking for directions or something like that. But I feel like in the parenting realm, everyone is sort of in it together these days. And there's actually a lack of guidance for dads because people assume they don't need it. And so they're even more adrift. This is my 2¢ then. You know, it's actually it's so fascinating. There are a couple of things I recognized as I started thinking about

[7:24]Craig Kessler: taking the project and turning it into a book. Number one, crazy amount of content out there for moms, very little for dads. The stuff that's out there for dads, this is point number two, typically comes from one person's point of view and it tells you what to do. And most guys don't want to be told what to do. By the way, we'd rather read lots of little stories as opposed to have one person telling us their point of view. And then the third thing that came to mind is that, if you're sick, you tend to go to a doctor as opposed to Googling your symptoms because the doctor has pattern recognition and they've seen your case ten thousand times and immediately know what to do, or at least they have a hypothesis. And as a dad, and this is probably true for moms too. I find that every time we face like a really big parenting challenge, it's the first time we've faced it. And so there's very little pattern recognition. And I thought, well, what if we could actually share with the world these thoughts that guys who've been dads for forty years have, and guys like me who are brand new at this, maybe we can help people generate some pattern recognition and help them be better parents as a result. So we'll see. So what's an example of a pattern that now you have

[8:41]Zibby Owens: maybe mastered yourself or gotten insight from others about?

[8:44]Craig Kessler: Yeah. It's interesting. One of my favorite parts of the project, the manuscript was done. I printed it out. I poured myself a drink and I read it cover to cover. And every time a new theme came up, I'd write it down. And if it came up a second time, I'd put a tally next to it. And I was trying to track these themes just to look for the patterns. I would say there are three themes that came up more than any others. Number one, kids need to feel psychologically and physically safe. There's a whole bunch of tactics in the book around how to do that. Number two, and this is my wife's favorite conclusion from the book. It is love your spouse and make sure your kids see it because that's how they learn how to have healthier relationships. And in my case, I'm married to a woman. And so I think it's one of the ways our three boys will learn how to treat women, not just have healthy relationships. And then the third most common piece of advice, which I find interesting is that kids need to fail, not just because they need to learn failures okay, but because they need to learn coping mechanisms. And one of the best ways to learn how to cope with adversity is to actually go through failure. And again, there's a whole bunch of, you know, tactical tips on how to bring those three principles to life. Wow. You know, it's so funny because

[9:59]Zibby Owens: I've interviewed all these people. And now two days in a row, I've talked to male authors. And you and the guy I interviewed yesterday, his name is Alex Mike Alides, who wrote The Maidens and Silent Patient. Anyway, both of you said that once your book was done, you poured yourself a drink and read the book. Literally, not a single woman has ever said that. Like, it's more like, I obsessed and I made it better and I did this and I did that. Like, no one's been like, I'm kicking back and enjoying my book.

[10:24]Craig Kessler: Yeah. I mean, like, I can't speak to why there's such a difference. I I don't know. But what I can tell you is and maybe this actually comes back to a piece of advice in the book. There's a guy named John Altshore, really interesting dude. He says, like my one piece of parenting advice is from this point forward, do the best you can. Like, it's very hard to redo the past, but from this point forward, do the best you can. And for me, it's like, yes, it can always get better the book, but like, this is two and a half years worth of work. Why wouldn't you put your feet up and sit back and try and enjoy, the fruits of your labor, you know, to some extent.

[11:02]Zibby Owens: Yeah. No. And it's true because you should really be writing the books that you want to read, right? That's like the best book you could possibly write is something that like, who cares if nobody else likes it? If you love it, that's it. And chances are, if you love it, other people do as well. Yeah. Well said. Awesome. Well, there's so many good little snippets. Here, I'll just open up to Seth Walcove. Yep. You know, listen more than and he did the list format. Listen more than you talk. Always say yes. Teach your son to be a good man by being a good man, always do what you say you're going to do, quantity of time spent is more important than quality. Tell them you're proud of them as much as possible. I mean, these are not by the way, just for dads. This is also a great book for moms PS. I'll just like, you know, co opt it. Hey, before you go on, I gotta tell you, so when my wife read the book for the first time, I asked her, I said, what'd you think? And

[11:48]Craig Kessler: her conclusion I thought was so cool. She said, most of the time when I read advice on how to be a good mom, I leave feeling less than because I realize I'm not doing all the things the author just told me I'm supposed to be doing. And she said, when I read the dad advice project, it made me want to be a better person because most of the dads talk about failure and mistakes as much as they talk about the things they're doing right. And by the way, they're telling stories as opposed to telling you what to do at least half the time. And she said, I understand Craig, why you called it the dad advice project, because that was the purpose behind the book for you. But really, is like the human advice project, whether you have kids or not, if you're a man or a woman, this book is about relationships and finding joy. I just thought that was a really inspirational takeaway. Well, I hope you hired her as your marketing and PR manager for this book. You know?

[12:42]Zibby Owens: Should definitely go in, like, the talking points and everything else. But it's true. I mean, you know, who is this? Who said this? Ryan, no wiki, humility, hunger, smarts. I mean, all these, like, some of these are so great. Laying out your values even. Like, who is this? Who said this? John Spear, we will always love them unconditionally. Being kind to others is powerful and takes practice. Seek out rewarding hard work and new challenges. Trying and failing is much better than not trying at all. Again, like universal, certainly for moms here. So this should be a gift people give but actually use themselves. Oh, I can't be there. I always try to be present when I am there, Keith Schneider. And it'd be a good husband to come home early once in a while. Yep. Anyway, so much stuff. I mean, you know, it's so great. And I love the short snackability of the advice, which again, I think is great for anyone who is short on time and wants just a little

[13:36]Craig Kessler: infusion of advice to get them through the day. Because honestly, some days are just super long and hard with kids. And if you know anybody's out there, they're rooting for you and that they've survived, that can make all the difference. I I totally agree. You know, it's interesting that the common thread, one of the many common threads that all the authors have is that, I'm lucky to call them close personal friends. And many of the authors in the book, your audience won't recognize their next door neighbors or colleagues of mine at Topgolf where I work, but there are a bunch of recognizable names. So George Tenet, who was the CIA director on nineeleven, and my college professor wrote the forward and Davis Love III, the golfer and Adam Wainwright, the Cardinals pitcher, they have submissions. And the reason I bring that up is again, when I was introduced to a couple of parenting books, I often found myself thinking, well, I can't relate to this author because this author is nothing like who I am or doesn't encounter any of the struggles that I encounter with marriage or work life balance or whatever it might be. And what's interesting is that you look at the diversity of authors in the book I'm and confident no matter who you are, there's at least someone going through or in a profession similar to yours, which makes the content relatable. The other thing that I find is, the most common question as I've done podcasts and panels over the last few weeks and launching the book is this question around how do you manage being a professional leading a big business and a husband and a dad? And I look at a guy like George Tenet, who in the wake of nineeleven is literally trying to protect the country and run an organization. Oh, by the way, he's a husband and a father. He figured out how to keep those balls in the air. And I think there's something to learn from people who have really, really had true trade offs to make, offs that I'll never be able to compare my life to. I mean, we're talking about entertainment here, saving the country. And again, when I think about the magnitude of who these, some of these guys are and what they've been through, it's very, very humbling and it gave me a chance to learn a ton.

[18:27]Zibby Owens: That's the other piece of dad advice is, like, continue to learn from people who are smarter than you are, or that's the advice I've always been given. You know? Get it from as many sources as you can because most people are smarter than you are. So, well, maybe that's sort of a backhanded compliment in my own family or something. I don't know. Maybe I need to look into that. So now that you've compiled this and you have a book out in the world, do you approach bath time with your own three boys any differently? Like, anything in the moments of bedtime, bathtime, like a weekend of dealing with sports or whatever it is that's going on in your life. Like, do you find yourself then, like, sort of highlighting like a, you know, like a word search where you press find and something like highlights up as a word? Like, does it happen like that for you now when you're doing the active business of parenting?

[19:18]Craig Kessler: Yes. But there's a a little bit of a disclaimer. We should be totally clear about one thing. My wife and I are still screwing stuff up every single day. So just because we did the project doesn't make us like special parents by any means. We're doing the best we can just like most people are doing the best they can. What I'll tell you though is that there are a few idiosyncratic, like one off tactical pieces of advice in the book that we've put to practice in our family and I'll give you a couple of examples. Josh Redstone, he owns a small business. They do this awesome family tradition where, while they try and eat dinner as a family all the time, at least once a month, have a formal family dinner. And that basically means they use placemats and napkins And they'll set the table and one by one, kids and parents, parents are not excluded. They have to take turns standing on their chairs, introducing themselves by name and by age. And then they have to tell the group one thing that they're thankful for. And what the family is practicing are a bunch of things. It's self confidence, it's public speaking, it's projecting your voice, but most importantly, it's practicing gratitude, which we all know the research shows leads to happiness over the long run. And as we've implemented this in our family, which we've taken it to a whole new level, we'll even do this in restaurants from time to time, which is like the most awkward scene we've ever seen. Our boys will now argue with each other over who gets to go first to say what they're thankful for, which to me is, it's kind of a cool thing. There's another example from a guy named Rex Kurzius. Rex has a software business. And what Rex talks about is how we give our kids exposure to all these things in life that we want them to have exposure to and feel comfortable around swimming, arts and crafts, team sports, religion, right? And I give you a bunch of examples. When it comes to business, he said, most parents shut the door and they say things like, mommy's got to go do a work call or dad's got to go interview somebody. Can you give me some privacy? And while his kids are a little bit older than mine, he's like, that's kind of bullshit. Like, why not open the door and give your kids exposure to all those things in the professional world, which A, will give them a leg up over the long run and B, at family dinners, it creates engagement on topics that are meaningful to you and will now become meaningful to them. So let them listen in on an interview, put it on speakerphone, and then debrief it for a few minutes and see what they come up with. I just thought that idea of opening the door instead of closing it was a really cool one. I mean, maybe don't open it to all of them at the same time. For sure.

[22:06]Zibby Owens: I try to do that too. And I feel like it's so easy with what I do because the books, you know, I I can be like, oh, this book was about, you know, this is what I'm reading today. And then two days later, can now that they know the plot, they'll say like, oh, like, that's that mystery you're reading about blah blah blah. And I'm like, yeah, I just interviewed the author. And occasionally, they'll come and sit on my lap and do the podcast with me. And, yeah, I feel like it's much easier for them to digest seeing what it is. And so they know what an interview is and they know when I'll be done and then they can listen to it after. And there's no hidden thing here. They like, you know, I'm not going off into some world of spreadsheets and, you know, business speak that they find hard to relate to, you know? I mean, it is so obvious what I do versus other jobs. But yeah, I think that it gives them a sense of ownership too, right? When they hear about it and root for you. And then I often talk at the dinner table about an interview like, oh my gosh, I talked to this guy today and listened to what he did. He got all this advice, blah blah blah. And so then it becomes something of interest to talk about as opposed to just like, you know, sit down and eat the broccoli. Totally agree. Broccoli, by the way, you could do lots of cool things with your family and our family. I don't think the broccoli is ever getting eaten. You have to teach me your ways. My husband actually is an amazing cook and has found a way to cook the broccoli so that they eat it, which involves some sort of saute with like chicken broth and

[23:28]Craig Kessler: butter and I don't know. It's probably not healthy, but it's delicious. So Can we write a book together called, like, the broccoli or vegetable advice eating project? Yes. I think there's a market for that.

[23:39]Zibby Owens: I wanna do a dad's don't have time to book, to be honest. So I need to hit you up. Maybe I'll get a bunch of dad essays, not about advice necessarily for being dads, but just like on life in general. And Love it. Yeah. Alright. More on that later when I finally get around to it. Anyway okay. So do you have any advice? Well, first, are you gonna do any more books? Yes, no, not sure.

[24:00]Craig Kessler: Haven't even thought about it. There's two goals now. It's to get this book into as many people's hands so that dads are better dads and kids live better lives. And there's a charitable component too. I'm a big supporter of the Boys and Girls Club. So if the book continues to perform, that will trickle over to the Boys and Girls Club where I went as a kid. And then the second goal is, we now have 42 dads that most of them came to my house actually a few weeks ago to meet each other for the first time before the book launch. And it was awesome. It's like some of my best friends in the world meeting for the first time. And I think if that group turns into a group that continues to support one another, almost like a little brotherhood of dads who want to be good dads, it'd be pretty neat. I love it. I love that component. It's all about community and

[24:45]Zibby Owens: Totally. Yeah. That's amazing. Do you have advice for aspiring authors? Don't write a book.

[24:53]Craig Kessler: I don't know. I mean, what a process. What I would say is, for me, was deeply, deeply passionate about the project. And frankly, I needed the advice, so it was worth it, but it is hard. I mean, probably one of the most challenging things I've ever done because it's an area that's new to most people. The publishing world is a very different world. Generating awareness is really, really challenging. You don't make money writing a book. So for someone who thinks, say, I'm going go write a book and sell a million copies and write off into the sunset, like no, wrong motivation. And then what I would say is, pick your partner as well. Partners on the publishing side, partners that will help you promote the book. One of the things that I learned is you can do a massive national news story, but if the audience isn't the captive audience that's watching the news program to find content like yours, it may not move the needle at all. And you can find, let's just say a mommy blogger who has only 700 followers, but they're loyal followers who really, really trust that person. And a post from that person could be worth 10x what a national news story could be worth. So bigger isn't always better when it comes to getting the word out. And hopefully that those little nuggets are helpful.

[26:16]Zibby Owens: That is helpful. I found that too. TV seems to be the least likely to move the needle, but still fun to do. So Yeah. Awesome. Well, Craig, thank you. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for assembling all this advice for everybody, not just dads. Thanks to your wife for highlighting that fact and not getting any recognition. So, you know, she gets an extra bottle of champagne tonight or something like that.

[26:42]Craig Kessler: And it was great just having our paths crossed, and I hope to meet you someday. Yeah. Zibby, thanks for having me on. I think what what you're building is really cool. When you talked about it during the clubhouse, I was super inspired and to be a small part of it's very cool. Thank you. You. I have a lot of fun. Awesome. Awesome. Alright. Thanks so much. Take care. Take care. Bye bye. Bye.

[27:02]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.