Naoise Dolan, EXCITING TIMES: A Novel

[1:35]Zibby Owens: this is Zippy Owens and you're listening to the award winning podcast Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight and I'm the editor of the anthology which you should run out and buy, called moms don't have time to a quarantine anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of moms don't have time to write a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Listeners, if you enjoy this podcast, I promise you will love my new audiobook, for moms don't have time to a quarantine anthology. It's not about the quarantine, but a lot of the essays were written during that time about other things that moms don't have time to do or other busy people. Things like reading, eating, working out, breathing, having sex, and 60 bestselling and notable authors wrote essays. All those authors have been on this very podcast. So if you like to listen to my conversations, if you want to get to know these authors better, I read the audiobook myself. Check it out on Audible, Moms Don't Have A Quarantine Anthology. Again, Audible audiobook. Go listen to it. It's like sixty minutei podcasts. I hope you enjoy. Special announcement. I am teaming up with Katie Couric Media's Wake Up Call and Random House to give away 100 copies of the book Stranger Care by Sarah Santillis. I'm really excited about this. Here's a little about Sarah's book, and we collectively are giving away 100 copies. After their decision not to have a biological child, Sarah Santilles and her husband Eric decide to adopt via the foster care system. Despite knowing that the system's goal is the child's reunification with the birth family, Sarah opens their home to a flurry of social workers who question them, evaluate them, and ultimately prepare them to welcome a child into their lives, even if it means most likely having to give the child back. Stranger care is an illuminating read, and Sarah will be on this podcast soon. So if you would like to enter for a chance to win, please go to the link in the episode description from right where you clicked on it and enter your email address, first and last name. By doing so, you're agreeing to the sweepstakes official rules and agree to receive communications and special offers from Katie Couric's wake up call and moms don't have time to read books. Thank you for doing it and enter to win today. Just go back to the episode description. Thanks again. Nisha Dolan is the author of Exciting Times. She is an Irish writer from Dublin. Her debut novel, Exciting Times, was published in 2020 and became a Sunday Times bestseller, shortlisted for several awards, widely translated, and option for TV by Black Bear Pictures. She is currently editing her next novel. She writes fiction, essays, criticism, and features. Welcome, Nisha. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss exciting times. Thanks for having me, Zibby. I was reading your book during a very not exciting moment of, like, you know, kid life with everybody strewn around me and, like, playing, and I was like, this is so ironic. Right? This is not an exciting time necessarily, but here I am, you know, like, surrounded. But I don't know. Anyway, it was it was funny for me. Would you mind telling listeners who aren't familiar yet with your book, although they should be because it's already come out a long time ago, but what it's about? Say,

[5:00]Naoise Dolan: I think probably the protagonist of the book would agree with you that it s not necessarily an exciting time for her either. And so it s about a young Irish woman named Eva who comes to Hong Kong from Ireland to teach English. And then once she s there she gets involved in two slightly off kilter love affairs. The first with a male British banker named Julian and the second with a Hong Konger named Edith who s a lawyer. And for a time she s able to balance them, play them off against each other, but eventually

[5:32]Zibby Owens: she needs to choose. That s the book. I thought it was so funny with Julian, by the way, when he couldn t believe that she had never been to London. And he was like, the flight is very short. How could you never have come from Dublin to London? And she's like, I didn't wanna point out that the flight was just as short to come from London to Dublin, but he had never done that.

[5:50]Naoise Dolan: However, I now live in London, so I find myself being that guy. I'll just say to people who are out there like, oh, let me know when you're in London and we can hang. And it's the weird assumption that they will be, even though I have no intention of them being where they are. So London just does that to everyone. I think New York probably does too to an extent. It's the two cities in the world that just think they're the center of the universe.

[6:14]Zibby Owens: Yes. Sort of a hubris to them, although I don't know, post COVID I feel like. Somebody recently said to me, when I said I lived in New York, they were like, Why did you stay there? And I was like, what do you mean I live here? You know? Like, yeah. What they said, what makes you what keeps you in New York? I was like, what a random question. Is that I don't know.

[6:34]Naoise Dolan: You live in New York? I did. I did. Yeah. I think that makes such a difference. Because I didn't grow up in London. I grew up in Dublin. But I feel like if you grew up in the city, you view cities as places to start a family, right? Places you can put down roots. Whereas I feel like London, certainly. And I think New York has this too. There's this layer of people who come there out of college and they see it as a place to be young and then they go back out to the suburbs or the countryside or whatever. And for them, it's permanently the young people place. And for me, just like I can't imagine living outside the city. I can't drive. Like I literally can't drive. I've got London, I've got New York, I've kind of got Dublin, that's it.

[7:19]Zibby Owens: You know, it's so funny. I feel like sometimes though, and I don't know about you, but I'm the kind of person like, I think if I had been born in a small town somewhere, I would probably still be there too. Like, I feel like I really like being where I'm from, where I feel like a part of the community where I open my door and I always run into someone I know from, like, when I was two or you know, like because a lot of people around my neighborhood at least, like, stay. Like, we've all gone to preschool two blocks away, and now our kids go there. And I don't know, there's something very comforting about that. Yeah. Although

[7:50]Naoise Dolan: Irish people are like cockroaches for just everywhere. So wherever I go, like, I'll be able to tap into some degree of family removal. I mean, here, I have this whole layer of virus just all around me. Like, you can very easily arrange your life in London so that you have absolutely minimal contact with English people. Some days I tend to.

[8:14]Zibby Owens: That's so funny. Oh my gosh. So I know I read that you had written when you were in Hong Kong yourself, you started writing this book about a girl in Hong Kong and this relationship and which was such a funny I mean, just the fact that they spend so much time together for a while and never got together until later. And then they were kind of like, well, I don't know. I just like didn't know if you would want it's just so the whole thing is such a it had such a nice pacing and humor to it. And the two people together were just so funny. And I don't know. And then she, of course, like, fails on her roommates and starts living there basically. Was this modeled in any way over your own life? Or are you tired of answering that question? Or how much of your life was similar to this characters?

[9:02]Naoise Dolan: Not really much. I think it was more that I wanted to create the kind of characters that I was curious about. And I'm not very curious about myself because I kind of know it all already. Like on some lair, sometimes I need a bit of excavating to access what's really going on there. But fundamentally, I am pretty knowable to me because I have pretty intense exposure. Yeah, I think it was more I wanted there to be something slightly mysterious about them to me as much as anyone else. Like I was like, where the hell is this going? What are they up to? And I think I came away at the end of writing it with answers in my head to some of those questions. Like the way I see it, Julian's probably just an awkward guy that I was projecting a whole lot onto because he happens to have a nice suit. It's the classic Mr. Darcy syndrome. Like I feel like if you put an awkward guy in a nice suit, then he will be read as like reserved and arrogant. So stuff like that, I kind of wound up with an answer just from exploring the characters. But I hope as well there's some stuff that I still can't answer myself and that the reader can't answer because that's what makes people interesting in real life. A tad of mystique, I guess. Interesting.

[10:20]Zibby Owens: And I'm so excited that Black Bear Pictures optioned your book, which is my brother's company. That's so cool. I know. That's so fun. So now I have no inside information. I probably should have asked him about it before this, but that's exciting news nonetheless. It looked like online it was gonna be it for TV. Is that right? Yeah. And I'll tell you something. It's so fun working with people who

[10:44]Naoise Dolan: have creative input in a team based kind of way because that's really what you miss normally as an author. Like you'll get edits back sometimes, but it doesn't really have that interpersonal air to it. It's just like some of notes on Microsoft Word. Sometimes you just want to see other human faces and talk to them about what's going on. I think it's all because I'm the kind of person who likes explicit instructions and clear feedback and just bluntness. I love Americans. They're so much more likely to just say what they're thinking, which to me, working in England most of the time is just a godsend. This is the land of that might be difficult, meaning I would sooner go to hell and back than do that. And I'm just like, why don't you just say it? But of course they can't. They're just like nationally incapable of that. So I love Black Bear and just like knowing where we're at with everything. It's so fun.

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[14:01]Zibby Owens: Well, you need anybody to be less blunt, if it becomes offensive, can always reach out to me. Not that I have any control. I have zero control. Although, so much respect for my brother and what he's built and everything. So just so neat. Just super exciting and neat. Yeah. Definitely. I actually I talked to somebody recently, a woman who's looking for a job, and she's like, you know, I just wanna be in a place with lots of people. Like, I'm tired of, you know, being a writer and being at home or whatever. Like, I I just need the people, especially after this year. So I think a lot of people are sort of feeling that way, that it's just so nice to be part of a group or part of in real life stuff.

[14:40]Naoise Dolan: Yeah, for sure. Like, I still really miss acting in cafes. I could theoretically do it now. London's kind of opened up again, but I'd feel so self conscious. Like the whole point of writing in cafes is you want people to forget that you're there so that you can observe them. And I mean, in my poor Steven day, so that I could get away with making a coffee last five hours. Have zero chances I am on the record of having been there for one coffee at five hours and there's like a meter of space all around me.

[15:08]Zibby Owens: Kind of not the same. Not the same. Well, what was it like having this book come out and being such a popular book and, you know, as a debut novel, what was that like for you? Yeah. Quite odd because I think you need a bunch of,

[15:25]Naoise Dolan: strategies and coping mechanisms that you don't necessarily expect to develop from something so solitary as writing. Like I think probably one of the biggest things for me to grapple with was the idea that there'd be all these people who have never met me who would still have opinions on me based on what they've read or based on looking at my social media or what have you. And that's a really weird thing to realize about yourself. Like, I think especially if you're a little bit of a control freak like me, and that's part of why I write because of the space where I can be a control freak and no one's going to judge me for it from moment to moment. So then to accept the idea that I'll be some kind of vaguely public figure and there will just be these perceptions of me out there and I won't be able to control it. I think that was a journey, a bumpy one. Like I think I'm okay now. I just have a degree of distance from it, I guess. Because when you've been doing something for a year, you either learn to cope or you just completely fall off the wagon. And I want to fall off the wagon, so I'm coping. It takes some time to get there for sure. I think that in terms of the actual writing, it helped start I wrote the book quite a while before it was published. So I wrote the first draft in early twenty seventeen. And then just publishing is such a slow industry. It's actually quite quick, I think, for it to come out in 2020 given that. But I think because of that, I was able to distance what happened when people read it from my own writing. So when I sit down to write new things now, I'm not really thinking about that so much because it just seems so far away. So yeah, I'm able to not let it affect my process too much, I hope. Excellent. And so does it affect how you would approach another book? I don't think so because I've tried to keep in mind the private relationship that I had with myself and my work that led me to write the first one, you know, throughout the process of publicizing it. Because I want to be as honest as possible and say things that feel close to when I wrote it. So I think I'm trying to preserve that space of just what do I want to make? Do I think it's good on my terms? And that's obviously not to say that I'm not responsive to feedback, but I think you need to be kind of discerning on which feedback you take and consider what does this person think of as a good book. And if the books that they admire are not the books that I admire, then why would I listen to their taste? It's like taking fashion advice from someone who wears something that you never would. Like, I'm not going to look at someone wearing like a yellow hairy coat on the street and go, I'm gonna ask her what she thinks of my beige trench.

[18:22]Zibby Owens: Such a good point. I love that. I know. I feel like there's this instinct to wanna be all things to all people. Right? You wanna make everybody happy. You want everybody to like something. And most times, people don't all like the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Even in the even, like, friends of mine who I do really respect a lot of their opinions, but some friends just have, like, totally different tastes in books. And I'm trying to figure out, like, why is that? Like, why is it that the books that she likes, I rarely like and vice versa? Like, I don't know. But it doesn't mean it doesn't make the book any less good or bad. Right? Yeah. Yeah. No. I think it's like shoes.

[18:57]Naoise Dolan: Like, I can tell so much more easily what kind of dress someone will like than what kind of shoes will work. Mean, you just literally have to put something on and that's the only way to know.

[19:07]Zibby Owens: So true. I love that.

[19:09]Naoise Dolan: So what are you working on now? I'm about to start edits on the next novel, so that'll be fun. And I recently started writing Sunday column for the Sunday Independent Bridges, one of the big Irish newspapers. So I'm really enjoying that because it's exact opposite of what I was just describing of making something in a complete vacuum and then like twenty years later getting reactions. It's just literally I file it and then a couple of days later I see if people liked it or not. So that's really new and fun. That's excellent. So what's your next column going to be about? Oh gosh. That's a reminder actually I need to email my editor and tell them I won't give away the surprise. Actually, I can because presumably it'll be out by the time this comes out. It'll be out. Yeah. Okay. Inside info time capsule. It will be about arts funding in Ireland and why it's a good idea to give artists a universal basic grant instead of picking and choosing who gets funding. Interesting.

[20:09]Zibby Owens: So every artist would get the same one? They get the same Yeah. I think it's the only way to make art really interesting and equitable

[20:16]Naoise Dolan: because for as long as the government are picking who they think is worthy, that's always going to reflect whatever kind of institutional biases are bound up in that government. And you just need to look at the composition of ours to know that that's going to be bad representation on pretty much every conceivable

[20:32]Zibby Owens: axis. So, yeah, I think it's better to expect the love. Wow. I love it. Very cool. Alright. Well, I will definitely not release this episode until I see that article

[20:42]Naoise Dolan: out in the world. Well, won't be long. God bless the short news cycle. Yes.

[20:48]Zibby Owens: Can you say what your second book is about? Not yet, but stay posted. Okay. Excellent. And when you're not writing, what are some what's, like, your favorite thing to do? Like, what are you gonna do after we get off this podcast? Well,

[21:02]Naoise Dolan: apparently, I'll email my editor. And then, yeah, I might go for a walk in some charity shops if they haven't closed yet. I'm addicted to secondhand shopping. And I've gotten better at not actually buying things, so it's not a financial problem, but it still takes up so much of my time because London is just great for people giving stuff away. And I think there's just a satisfaction to finding something in a really unlikely place. And then that being the origin story for Like, I am unbearable when I find something good secondhand. Like, a couple of years ago, I got a Pradaquist coat in a London charity shop. And it's not that I volunteered this information, but if someone asked, I would make sure they knew the provenance. So I'll probably go do that. Or just go for a walk. We're in a heat wave right now. Like, I mean, I'm sure people in countries that are actually hot would laugh, but it's like 24 degrees, which for us is virtually tropical. So might just go enjoy that.

[22:10]Zibby Owens: I love secondhand shops because I'm always so curious about the story behind the object. Right? Like, my my wedding ring that I got with my second husband or my husband, but he happens to be my second husband. We found in this, like, random, you know, antique type store in Charleston, South Carolina while we were just roaming about for the day, and I was with some girlfriends. And it was there with all these, like, old pieces of silverware and brooches and all these things. And I was like, well, who wore this ring before me? You know? Like, where did it come from? Who was the woman? What was her life like? And if I were a better writer, maybe I would do a whole historical novel about, like, this the woman who had the ring before me, and now here I am in New York City and, you know, the whole thing. Right? Yeah. Although it turns out that when I got the ring, it turned out it had, like, a giant crack in it. So I returned it. But then I had, like, a jeweler up here make the exact same ring that wasn't broken. So, anyway, that's my origin story with that. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. No. I love that history too. Like, I think probably one of my favorite things in my wardrobe that I'll just keep forever is this very plain black cotton cardigan, but it's got the coolest buttons. I think it's from the 70s. And I got it in France

[23:18]Naoise Dolan: and it has this French name sewn in the back. And I thought it was the label at first, but then I found the actual label. So whoever the French person is, I'm just wearing their name on my back forever.

[23:33]Zibby Owens: That's so cool. Oh my gosh. Well, I guess you can you can sort of find stories wherever you look. Everything can be material. Well, Nisha, thank you. Thank you for chatting about exciting times and for making this I don't even know what it is. Tuesday afternoon, an exciting time for me to be chatting with you. And I can't wait to see the the screen adaptation with BlackBerry. I'm so excited for that. So congratulations. And, yeah, I hope to see you in person someday. I'd love that too. Okay. Great. Have a lovely afternoon. You too. Have fun shopping. Don't buy too much. Okay. Alright. Bye. Thanks

[24:29]Zibby Owens: and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.