Eleni N. Gage, LUCKY IN LOVE: Traditions, Customs, and Rituals to Personalize Your Wedding

[2:07]Zibby Owens: This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to: A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.

[2:43]Eleni N. Gage: Eleni Gage is the author of Lucky and Traditions, Customs, and Rituals to Personalize Your Wedding, but she's also written many other books. Formerly the article's editor at Oath Oprah Magazine and the executive editor at Martha Stewart Weddings, Elleni is a freelance writer and editor and the author of the travel memoir North Of Ithaca, the novels Other Waters and the Ladies of Minagua, and the folklore filled gift book Lucky in Love, which I just talked about. The daughter of a Greek father and a Minnesotan mother, Eleni lives in Manhattan with her Nicaraguan husband and their Greekaraguan children. Welcome, Eleni. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss your many books, including Lucky and Traditions, Customs, and Rituals to Personalize Your Wedding, but also your novels and your memoir. And you've got just so much going on. I don't even know where to begin. Look who's talking. I was just saying moms don't have time to read and yet you're getting everything done. It's amazing. Barely. Barely. I try. Thank you. So let's talk about Lucky and Love. And what made you want to write sort of this beautiful, by the way, and for people listening, it's a hardback cover red book with this beautiful gold, you know, not embroidery, don't even know, decoration on the front. And this is like the perfect gift for anybody who gets engaged by the way. So just store that away in your minds if you need an engagement gift. And actually my cousin's engaged so I could give this to her if I get organized enough to send it, which I will do after this. So anyway, tell me a little bit more about Well, congratulations to your cousin. Thank you. Well, first of all, the red and the gold, red is obviously a lucky color in Asian cultures because of life force and blood, but also it looks a little bit like a Cartier box that an engagement ring might come in, right? So that's part of it. And I will say it's a beautiful book and I had nothing to do with that because I did not do the illustrations, which I love. An artist named Emily Isabella did. But as to why I wrote it, I studied folklore and mythology in college and I love rituals. I think they're so important. I think that's one of the things that was missing during quarantine. I think our society is losing our rituals and cultures a little bit and we need more and we need to make new ones. And I think they feed our soul. And then in my professional life, few years ago, I was the executive editor of Martha Stewart Weddings. And I would read about all these couples and the beautiful weddings they were planning. And I would meet with some of them and I realized all couples want two things, like a one of a kind wedding and a lifetime of happiness, right? I mean, short order. But everyone wants their wedding to be meaningful and a lot of people didn't know how to get there. And I feel like then you end up focusing on the wrong things, like if the colors of the napkins are a little bit off. And really what makes the wedding meaningful is you and the families you come from and your cultures and what's meaningful to you. And the fact that you met each other and fell in love, which is like a miracle in the world, I feel like. And you're doing this brave thing, deciding to join your lives together. So I wanted to write a book for people who wanted to design their own wedding in their own way. And maybe they don't have a template, maybe they're not religious, or maybe they don't identify with their culture, or maybe they do and they want to learn new things about it. But ways to bring meaning into your wedding that are personal to you and that also connect you to previous generations and to future generations. So that's luck in love. Wow. Wait, go back to talking about the importance rituals in our culture and the effect of not having them during COVID. Tell me more about that. Well, so in college, I learned in my first spoken myth class that societies develop rituals around liminal stages, the transitional stages that make us nervous because change makes you nervous, even if it's good change, like a wedding. So that's why we have rituals around birth, death, coming of age, weddings, and they do a few things. They remind us that we're not alone. They help us identify with each other. You think of that a lot at a wedding where there's a couple getting married, but before them, their parents got married and after them, their children will go on to join with other people and create new families. And they also make a stop and say, Okay, this is important. Like what I'm doing right now, whether it's a wedding or a baptism, or even just the way athletes will have a ritual sometimes before they go up to bat, stops for a minute, centers you, focuses you, connects you to something larger than yourself and makes you feel like, okay, this is an important thing. And it also calms you because can't part of what makes us nervous when things change is that we can't control the future. We don't know what's going to happen. And when you do these things, it gives you an element of control. That aspect of it, some people sort of think of it negatively as superstition. I'm highly superstitious. I'm always wearing an evil eye or knocking wood or whatever. I feel like it's totally a psychological crutch that makes me feel like I'm doing something that's going to tip things in my favor. And why wouldn't I want that extra confidence? Wow. Well, that is really interesting. I hadn't really thought I mean, I, of course, noticed the lack of rituals, especially surrounding death during COVID because you could kind of, you know, do some of the stuff on Zoom for you know, my kids had bar and bat mitzvahs on Zoom and, like, other you know, I've gone to some Zoom weddings and whatever. Of course, it's not the same, but the Zooms for memorials just did not fill that enough room. You want to hug the person. You know, you want to celebrate their lives. I do love how during quarantine, we got creative about rituals and sort of drilled down to what was important. But when you're designing a ritual, whether it's a wedding or memorial, and whether you're redesigning it because you can't be together or you're sort of designing in the first place, it really makes you ask yourself like, what do I need out of this? What matters to me? And that's why I think with death, some people they really wanna focus on the celebration of life. Some people really wanna focus on the healing for the people who are left behind. Some people really wanna focus on their vision of an afterlife. And it's the same thing with any ritual. Like what is it? What do I want the people around me to feel? What do I want to feel? And what do I want to get out of this? And give out of this. I think everyone should marry in their own way. So this is not to harsh on elopements, but I feel like when I was younger, people would say to me like, Oh, don't you want it to be just like you and your spouse on top of a volcano somewhere? And I was like, No, because this is about all the people who got us to this point and who are going to be with us throughout our marriage and our lives together and that sense of community. And for me, of quarantine was what I really missed was that sense of community. And part of what ended up being enjoyable about it was finding ways to build that sense of community, like as you did in your anthology, you know? Thank you. Yeah. Well, I had the chance to have two weddings actually. So I'm very lucky. I got to have like a do over, right? And be like, okay, I learned from the first wedding. What am I going to do for the second wedding? All these skills you get, you might as well put them to good use. Totally. I had two weddings on the same day because my husband's Catholic and I'm Greek Orthodox and we got married on the island of Corfu in Greece, which has a significant Catholic minority. So when I was meeting with the Greek priest, because I did all the legwork for the wedding, he had never been to Greece before he showed up to get married. The Greek priest was like, Well, your husband's from Nicaragua. Okay, well, if he's Catholic, you could get married in the Catholic church first. So we did, we had a Catholic ceremony and then we walked down in front of the Palace Of St. Michael and St. George to the waterfront and had a Greek Orthodox ceremony. And then we walked down to the fortress and had our reception. And so we're really, really married. I mean, Chris knows. No doubt about that. How did you like, have you always been interested in weddings because of their folklore aspect? Is that how you ended up at Martha Stewart Weddings? Or is there something more? Like how did that happen in your career and your interests and all of that? Yeah. Don't you sort of look back on life and feel like everything was leading to certain points? You know, it all comes together. Yeah. I was always interested in weddings because of the folklore aspect. I was interested in folklore because my dad's Greek and my mom's not. And we grew up with my aunts coming over all the time and I'd be studying for exams. So one of them would open the door and wave some incense around because it's like St. Basil's Day. Because my mom wasn't of the culture and she appreciated it and sort of could point out like, that's a ritual. That got me interested in observing the things that were around me. And so I love weddings. I mean, I will look at anybody's wedding pictures because there's so much there, you know? And one of the things actually that was really life affirming about writing this book during a time when, you know, there were sort of political divides and everything in the country was that, you know, made me feel, I was working on the chapter about toasts from all over the world. And what I love about folklore is it's so specific to each culture, but it's so universal at the same time. And it made me realize that like, we all want the same things. Like with the wedding, everybody wants to show hospitality. Everybody wants their children to be happy. Everyone wants the generations to continue. And it's made me feel like, Oh, we're all the same. But how I got to weddings was, my very first job as an editorial assistant at Allure magazine, four days after I graduated from college, I made a ton of friends there as I feel like one dad's in their first job. And one of them ended up being the editor in chief of weddings. So I ended up working there, but I was so thrilled whenever these big packets used to go around with all these strangers' weddings contact sheets, and people would, for the photo editor and the designer and the editors and everyone to decide which weddings should we cover. And that was my happiest day when I got to look at 40 wedding pictures, you know? I'm the same way. I love I, you know, I used to like inhale every word even of the vows column. Now I'm not doing that as much as reading like obituaries for whatever reason, but. You know, when I walk through Central Park and I see the brides taking wedding pictures or whatever, always feel like it's so lucky when I see a bride. I'm always telling my kids like, look, look, you know, I'm probably severely damaging them. Yeah. I was a bride for Halloween as a child. I had like the long veil. Like, I looked amazing. I had a bouquet. It was great. It was my favorite costume. By the way, have you heard like it sounds like a lot of millennials are not getting married, that people are starting to find it optional. Have you heard about this? I have. In fact, my sister, who is not quite a millennial, she's not married. She and her partner have been together for years and they have a baby. And I get to spend a lot of time with them. So I don't feel as cheated as I would if I didn't. But there's part of me that's like, Don't you just want me to have a good Like, Where's the party? Where's the party I get to go to? You know? Yeah, I helped raise you. Like, where can I be like, Is this a little girl I carried? You know? I mean, she's only two and a half years younger, but still. So yeah, I get that. Like, I get the, you know, my sister's like, I don't want to be the focus of attention. It makes me nervous. I don't want to spend all that money. And I totally get that. I don't think weddings have to cost a lot. And I don't think you have to invite everyone, you know, but I think it's such an opportunity, like life offers us opportunities to celebrate and we should take them all because it also offers us sad things. And we can all get together to celebrate love, the two people that we love and also just love itself. At our weddings, my husband Emilio gave a toast and he said, We're so happy that we found each other, but we're also so happy that we have all of you in our lives. And tonight we want to celebrate love in all its forms. And I think that's what a wedding is. So millennials, you do you, enjoy, but I hope they don't look back and wish that they had had a moment where everyone was together. Or I hope they get that down the road. Like, you wanna have a wedding with your kids walking you down the aisle, great. More power to you. Do it in your own way and in your own time, but don't give up the opportunity to celebrate love, I think. Maybe there'll be a new tradition that sort of comes, which is like you don't actually get married, but you can still celebrate your partnership. Right? I mean, you don't have to actually I I don't know if it's the legal part of it that people don't like. I think I think you're right that some people don't wanna be the center of attention and the money and everything, but I think some people just don't see the point of getting married. Yeah, I know. But like the point is like to stop and say, wow, this happened. We're so lucky. We found each other. We have you guys. We have something to celebrate. There's joy in the world and to stop honor that. I'm with you. I am totally Yes. With you on I feel like there's also this sense of security and commitment within your relationship, but also signaling to everyone else like, no, no, no, this is not just like a thing, you know? This is like really the real deal here. Yeah, totally. And like, and we want you to be a part of this. I mean, it's, I say in the book somewhere, like it's the first time you're hosting Friends as a unit, as a married couple, and not just Friends, but everybody, like all the generations. And one thing that I feel like is tough in The US as opposed to in other countries is I feel like unless you're in a house of worship or in a family home, like our generations are so separated and so satisfied and like all the old people are here and all the little kids are over here being watched over by the little kid caretakers. And all the middle aged people are over here working and you go to Europe and you sit in the main square and like the grandparents are watching the grandkids running around and the parents are having dinner over there. And like, everybody's all mixed up together. And a wedding gives us that, unless you're having a wedding with no kids, which I support that too. That's You know, rituals give us a chance to all come together across the generations, and and I think it's so meaningful. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to quints. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quint's works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E Dot Com Slash Zibby for free shipping and three sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[19:14]Eleni N. Gage: Wait, so let's go back if you don't mind. So you started after college at Allure. I know you married a Nicaraguan husband. Seen beautiful pictures. I've learned more about Nicaragua than I ever thought I would and watched the videos. I mean, it's amazing. Like, oh my gosh. And I know a few other things along the way and that you've written all these books. So give me like the timeline and trajectory of like how this all happened. And did you grow did you grow up always wanting to write? So my parents were both writers, journalists and book writers. And no, I didn't want anything to do with it. It looked like a lot of work. It looked really boring. They spent a lot of time with the computer and I wanted to be a teacher. And then when I was in college, I started writing for the lifestyle magazine of the newspaper and I really enjoyed that. And I felt a lot of stress about graduating and I wish I had been the cool kind of person who was like, I'm going to backpack around Europe. But I really felt like I needed to know what I was doing next. So I got a job at Allure, four days after graduation. I worked there. Then I worked at Elle. Then I worked at In style. And then I moved to Greece, the small mountain village where my dad's from, to oversee the rebuilding of my grandparents' house, which had fallen into ruin after the Greek Civil War, World War II and then the Greek Civil War. And so that was about healing family trauma and rebuilding a house, but also I wanted to live in this place and build my own relationship to it. Because we had lived in Greece when I was little, but in Athens from when I was three to when I was seven. So I was going back as an adult and I spent ten months living in this village with senior citizens as my neighbors. And I thought it would be meaningful, but I did not think it would be so fun. And it was so fun. I had the best time with these people. I've been back every year since, except during quarantine when I did go to Greece, didn't go to the village because I didn't want to risk that I was bringing anything. And the year that I was pregnant with my daughter. So I had a great time doing that. I came back. That's what my travel memoir is about North Of Ithaca. I came back, I worked at People Magazine. I was their first beauty editor, worked there for a couple of years and I really wanted to write a novel and I knew I wouldn't do it because like as a journalist, like as someone who gets paid to write, I knew I wouldn't sit there and spend all this time writing something without a deadline. So I went to Columbia to get my MFA and I wrote a novel sort of inspired by my college hermit. And it's about an Indian American psychiatrist who thinks that her family's been cursed. It's called Other Waters. And I was really fascinated by this idea of like a scientific person who still believes that there are other forces at play, larger forces at play. Because I sort of believe that, and I think there's so much more in the world than we recognize. So I was at Columbia, I wrote that novel and I was teaching writing there. And that was around the time I met the Nicaraguans. So I'd been single for a million years. And in 2008, that college roommate, who was Indian, got engaged and she had an engagement party in Strongsville, Ohio. And I went and there were lots of elderly Indian people there, including this gentleman who'd been like, I don't know, an engineer for Ford Motors or something. But he did astrology on the side and he did my charts and he looked at my palm and he said, The time I see for marriage is September 2010. And I told my roommate that and she said, Oh, Joe Schenkel's great, but he's always a month off. So I said, Okay, then I'll get married on tententen. Now really, was thinking that's way too soon. It's April 2008. I would have to meet a guy tomorrow, date him for a year. We'd have to be engaged for a year, never going to happen. But I came back, went out to dinner with my girlfriends, told them I'm getting married tententen. One of them pulled out a date book and went to write it down because she was a lawyer and she said, I'll need to take time off work. A year passes, I still haven't met anybody. Then one night, the same roommate who had gotten married on New Year's Eve in India, and I went and brought my mother and sister, She texts me while I'm not at a concert with all my Greek friends, a Greek concert. And she says, I'm in a bar with her husband watching the Duke game. I'm the only girl here. And there's all these cute guys. It's a man buffet. You should come. And I was like, Well, I'll stop by in between the concert and the Greek dancing. So I stopped by and there were all these guys there, including this Nicaragua who'd gone to Duke, including this Nicaraguan guy who said he worked in coffee. He was cute, but I didn't catch his name. And then the next day I met up with another friend of mine and I asked her her sister was, and her sister was in business school at the time. And she said, Oh, she's great. She's going to spend the summer. And he got out while working for an NGO. And I said, Oh, that's so funny. I just met a guy from there, but I can't remember his name. She said, Well, she doesn't know anyone from there. So if you could put them in touch, that would be great. So in the meantime, another one of the guys there had Facebook friended me and sort of circled back. And I said to him, Hey, you're Nicaragua friend. Would he talk to my friend? And this guy said, Yeah, we should all get together in a month after I turned in my dissertation. So we did, we chatted. Emilio went on the trip. He was the Nicaragua guy. I went on a trip. And when we came back, we started hanging out with his friends, started dating. Ten months later, we were in Buenos Aires on a trip and we saw a family with kids walking by. And he said, How soon can we have kids? And I said, Well, we got to get married first. And he said, Well, how soon can we get married? And I said, Well, somebody once told me I'd get married on tententen. So this was May 2010. And he was like, Yeah, let's do it. So I messaged my cousin on Corfu. I was like, Go talk to the priest at this church, see if it's free. I messaged the sailing club at the fortress. And they were like, You want to get married in October? Everyone gets married in the summer. Yeah, of course we're free in October. And yeah, I got married on tententen. And actually that day, a Greek newspaper interviewed me because there were like all these couples getting married. And even the priest was like, Five weddings today. It's October. Why? And I was like, Well, I think people think that the numbers are lucky. So it all came to pass. We moved to Miami. My husband was He has a coffee brand now, but at the time he was a coffee trader. And we moved to Miami for his work. And in that timeframe, I got inspired by a story he told me about his grandmother who was Nicaraguan and went to Catholic boarding school in New Orleans, like a lot of Nicaraguan women of her era and class did sort of in the early 50s, late 40s. And there she fell in love with a Cuban guy and was sort of torn away from him at the altar. And so I started thinking about her and the women of that generation who had gone to boarding school and learned how to get in and out of cats gracefully and all sorts of useless skills. And then their kids ended up in many cases starting the Nicaraguan revolution. I've always been fascinated by older women and I like writing from the point of view of older women because I feel like as women, we sort of take it upon ourselves to learn how society works and functions. And we throw the birthday parties and we write the thank you notes and we do all the things that keep the world moving. And just when you figure out how everything works, it all changes. And I think that happens to all of us, but I think there are certain moments in time where that's especially noticeable. And for like the Nicaragua women of that generation, it was that moment in time. Whereas like in Europe, I feel like World War II changed a lot of things historically. So we're married, we're living in Miami, I'm freelancing, and I write The Ladies of Managua, which is a novel about three generations of Nicaraguan women, each with their own secret. And then I got the job offer to be the executive editor at weddings and we were ready to come back to New York. And I couldn't pass up writing about weddings all the time. So came back, I worked there for three years. We had my daughter in Miami. We had my son here after a lot of effort. And then, so I wanted to spend more time with him. So I went freelance again and along the way wrote Lucky and Love. Then I took another job as articles editor at O, The Oprah Magazine. When that ceased monthly print, I went freelance again. And that brings us to today. I mean, what else do you want to know? Oh my gosh. I loved that. So do everything. You're sorry you asked. I'm not at all sorry I asked. I found that totally fascinating. I was like hanging on every word. It's such an interesting journey sort of through the world of women's magazines and publishing and love yourself. And oh my gosh, that's, I mean, that was great. So are you now freelancing while you do book promotion and stuff? Are you going to go back to a publication or what are you thinking? I mean, I don't You tell me. Like, what does, what should I do, Zibby? I heard you talking to Tia, who was a beauty editor back when I was too. Tia Williams wrote, I'm a days dude. You were like, Let me try and fix your migraines. And I was like, Oh, can she fix my life? I might need a little more time. I usually do have ideas for people right away. I don't know. Maybe you should start a podcast. Doctor. I don't think I have the tech skills, but I am freelance now. I am definitely open to another job in a magazine. People ask me, Are you writing another novel? And I would love to. I remember running around the reservoir, which I now never do, and thinking about the characters in Lazy Managua and thinking to myself, what do people who aren't writing a book think about while they run? And I said that to a friend of mine and she looked at me sort of pittingly and was like, their own minds? But I feel like right now on the moms don't have time to write front, I can write articles and I can write gift books. I could write about folklore till the time comes home, until the cows come home, like Lucky and Love. But to write another novel, I feel like I can't be responsible for any more lives, real or imagined. So I'm hoping that something overtakes me and I just have impassioned to wake up early and write and stay up late and write. And the story sort of pours out of me the way the ladies of Monaco did. But right now there's nothing captivating me enough to make me take on more lives, real or imagined. And for the same reason I tell my kids they can't have a pet. I'm like, I can't be responsible for one more living thing. Just you guys. I know that feeling very well. Although now we have a dog, but she's Yeah, now you have a dog and you're writing. So like five different books from what I can keep track of. Gosh, I feel like you researched me so well. You're so it makes me feel so good. Thank you. Oh, no. I love it. I mean, you know, social media makes me feel like I know all these people. Yeah. Oh, you know, it's funny. I've started actually now meeting people that I know well on social media and I'm like, this is so weird. I'm like, hey, kids, here's my friend who I met on the internet. You know, it's so bad, but you know, you can really like get to know someone very well through Zoom. I mean, this is really like a type of meeting. I don't know. I like to think, but Totally. And like you feel for them. And then it's happened to me where like I meet people in person and I wanna be like, how are you doing after this? Or, you know, after And then a little bit, I'm like, well, am I a creepy stalker? You know? Yeah. I know. There are people who I meet in real life and I'm like, oh my gosh, I have to hug you. Like, that's so weird of me. I'm being very weird now. Realize this, I say to myself, but wow. Well, I mean, what a great career. You could also do something about, you know, that whole trajectory of publications. And I mean, there's so many other people who have gone through the women's magazine sort of world, or not even just women's, mean, people and everything else, but I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I sort of feel like there's a lot I mean, I would love even sort of the story. Like I was so single for so long, it felt like, and I was so disheartened about all that. And I do sort of look back on that time as like a novel almost, a story. But in terms of magazines and my life and things like that, part of me feels like, I don't know, do people really need to hear about my life right now? My mom's always like, during quarantine, we were here for the first nine weeks and I have all these pictures of my kids skating in the empty fountains in front of the Met and stores boarded up that say, we're all in this together. And then we came back and the sort of heartbreak of hybrid and remote schooling. I was just posting all of this and my mom's almost like, Oh, you should get together your photos and your posts and write about parenting during quarantine and being in New York and all this. I'm like, Listen, everybody lived it. Nobody wants to read that. Like, Thank you, mom, for being interested in my life. But I don't know that, you know, my quarantine story is the one everyone needs to hear right now when there are, you know, doctors and nurses and frontline workers who really went through it all. That said, just playing devil's advocate here for a second, the things that happened during that time are much more interesting than if you just put a blanket term of like how parents got through a pandemic. I mean, like, there was so much that went on. There were so many emotions and feelings, and it didn't even have to be about the pandemic. It was just what happens when life as you know it completely changes? And, like, that's a very interesting question. And that's something that I think each family's story is really interesting to me. Not necessarily how do you go to Zoom school or whatever, which I'd never wanna think about again. But, like, you know, what do you do when life throws something really challenging your way? I'm interested in that. I'm interested in hearing how people cope and, you know, like with anything, like with, you know, loss or addiction or whatever. Like Yeah. The pandemic is one example of that. So in that way, I actually would be really interested in in what happened with you. And the ice skating is really interesting. And I don't know, not to say you should write a whole book about it, but anyway. And you know, I think what's been interesting for me to watch is how different age groups are affected in different ways. Like my daughter was in third grade when quarantine started and went through fourth grade and no big deal. She could chat with her friends online, this and that. And I'd be thinking about kids who were like high school seniors and college seniors and how difficult that was. But my son who was four when it started and is six now, like he won't remember a time before masks or before quarantine, like his conscious memory won't exist. It really, remote school is not developmentally appropriate for that age. And the teachers could see him or hear him and was so upset and we'd find him crying in the closet and be like, what's wrong? And he'd say, oh, the life cycle of the salmon, it's so sad because he learned on Wild Kratts only one in a thousand salmon make it swimming upstream. It is really sad. Thanks, wild crats. Love wild crats, by the way. Right? Yeah. Shout out to wild crats. Okay. Maybe I could get a job on wild crats. But way different age groups will be impacted. And I wonder about these generations who, like, how do you teach kids other people aren't always dangerous? They just remember having to wear masks and not touch people. And he didn't want to wear a costume for Zoom school on Halloween because somehow in his mind, a costume equaled trick or treating, which equaled death. I said, Why don't you want to wear a costume? And he was like, I don't want to get corona. So yeah, I'm real glad that it looks like full time school in the fall for us. Me too. What advice would you have for aspiring authors? Oh gosh, my advice would be just write all the time. I used to think about writing a book and it seemed daunting. And then whereas writing an article seemed doable. And then just thinking about what you need to write that day or the next day, like what I loved about writing The Ladies of Renagu, it's three different women's voices, the daughter, the mother, the grandmother. And they go in the same order, the chapters alternate and their voices in the same order. So I always knew who was gonna talk next. And I sort of had a general idea what they wanted to talk about, but otherwise I was kind of making it up as I went along. So having that structure was really useful to me. And the other thing I learned, I think in grad school was I used to think like, I need a whole day if I'm going to do creative writing. I can edit articles and stuff here and there, but I need a whole day to write fiction. And then I was like, No, I need four hours. No, I need two hours. And I realized if you just have the small piece that you wanna be working on, just do it in the hour. Even if it's terrible, you can come back and edit it later. So much of writing is just editing. And for me, the hard part is getting the whole thing down and then you can hack it into something, you know, a topiary. But growing that tree or that bush, that's the hard part. Awesome. Well, I'm sorry I don't have a perfect answer for you right now, but I'm going to keep thinking about it. You know, you don't have enough to do, Zippy, so you need to take that on. Going to put it. It's going to circle in the back there. I'll be working it. Moms don't have time to be career counselors. You know, that's your next. It was so great to connect with you and I hope we stay in touch and all that good stuff. Me too. I will bump into you on the street one day and give you a hug whether you like it or not. Perfect. I would love it. We'll hang out. All right. Take care. Thanks so much. Okay. Bye bye. Bye.

[36:37]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdonthavetimetoreadbooks. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing,

[36:57]Eleni N. Gage: and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.