Joan Silber, SECRETS OF HAPPINESS

[0:49]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay. Now back to this amazing podcast. Joan Silver is the author of Secrets of Happiness, a novel. She's the author of nine books of fiction, and the one before Secrets of Happiness was called Improvement and was the winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award and the PENN Faulkner Award. And it was also listed as one of the year's best books by The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, Newsday, Seattle Times, and Kirkus Reviews. She currently lives in New York and teaches in the Warren Wilson MFA program. Welcome, Joan. Thank you so much for coming on moms don't have time to read books to discuss secrets of happiness. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. Which, of course, is basically what everybody wants to know anyway. Right? Like, this is it. This is the manual, the the fictitious version of this, you know, the meaning of life here. What's your main takeaway? What's the secret? I do not have the secret. I

[2:12]Joan Silber: engineered the title with some sense of irony, although I was joking with my editor saying we can sell a billion copies if they think it's that. But in the beginning, there's a woman discovers that her husband has a secret family that he's had for years. So he has secrets, and the idea of secrets is important in the book. But also she is the one who the second family is from Thailand, and he's in the garment business and has been traveling back and forth to Asia for years. And she has always wanted to go. So when she is divorced from him, she decides to travel to, of all places, Thailand, which is where the other family is from. There's a lot of irony in that. But she has a wonderful time and actually comes back. You know, she's okay to begin with, but she's changed for the better by being there. So I wanted all of that in the sense sense. The first chapter was published as a story under that title. And of course, I just loved that title because, you know, we all wish we had the secret to happiness. Totally.

[3:13]Zibby Owens: I love, by the way, when she gets back from her trip to Thailand and her son is like says she looks like a backpacker and it's just like you would never know that she wasn't homeless or something like that, you know, with like her, you know, all disheveled. But I actually loved depiction of how a wronged woman sort of takes life into her own hands and goes off and sort of I thought it was so fitting that she went to Thailand because she's like, no, no, no. Like, this is not going to be my story. Like, I'm going to go claim this territory. You know, it's like she took it back, which I loved. Oh, good. Oh, I'm glad that that was certainly an effect that I wanted from that. Oh, good. And I thought it was so neat how you just kept the characters going. So you would introduce a character and then like, you know, it's like a basketball game or something, and they would like pass the ball to the supporting player. And then like, they would take it over and like run down the court. You know, it was very I loved how you stitched it together like that. So you're always like going off in these directions. I love that form. The past

[4:13]Joan Silber: five books, including this one, have done some variation of that, although they're all quite different. But I feel like I've done my best work in that form because it allows me to have the very I like the intimate gaze of a really close scene and someone's interior life being depicted. But I also wanted to do a larger canvas and this gave me a way to do that. So I've been happy in this form. So it's great because you're always like meeting new people and

[4:40]Zibby Owens: finding new situations and I don't know, it keeps it moving, but you're always learning. I don't know, it's neat. Like you're in like a rowboat, like going down with different tributaries or something. Anyway, I'll stop with analogies. You've done so much teaching and you are obviously so accomplished and National Book Award for your last book, all sorts of great stuff. And now this beautiful novel, what is it? Like what do you teach? What is the trick? Like what are some of the things that you think are really important? Because clearly the product is effective. So what is the means to an end that you found to be most impactful in your work and that you share with others? One of the things that I have I have taught for

[5:25]Joan Silber: like thirty five years at Clare Lawrence actually and I've taught in many other graduate programs as well especially Warren Wilson. But when I first started teaching and I didn't know how to do it which is what teaching is like I felt like I was looking for the form in each story because you're trying to think like there's some good things in here but what's missing? What's it trying to do? So I'm always looking at the intention rather than trying to impose something on it. I think that's important. But it taught me about form and about structure, which are nicer words than plot. I think plot sounds a little bit ABC, which you know I don't I don't exactly look for. So I'm looking for what's most distinctive in each student's work, but I'm I'm trying to get the story to move a little bit, usually, especially because I'm getting literary writers. I mean, they're the ones that decide they want to study with me. The action often needs a little heightening. And you want to do that without being artificial about it. So it's just a way of paying attention to what's happening and try and get it. I've always shortened programs where you get to question the writers a little bit. So you want them to go deeper, and often by finding out what they really meant. So sometimes I have this great advice, and then it turns out, oh no, they don't want to do that. They want to do this. So I can then kind of revamp what I was saying. I don't have any one thing that I'm trying to convey to them, but I do think that sometimes I was sort of over taught about I'm careful about my sentences, which is good, but I feel like I was over taught about line editing. That's important, but that's not usually the heart of the matter, unless it's a way to go deeper, which is what revising sort of is to let you know. But I emphasize content and form more than sentence by sentence. That's just my way to do it. Someone just told me, one of my friends said that Dolly Parton, who of course we're all grateful to for helping in the vaccine stuff, but Dolly Parton tells people find out who you are and do it on purpose. And I thought oh that's great, know that's fabulous advice to all of us. Of course everyone who hears that says How do I find out who I am? You know, that's the big, like, Oh, it's so easy to find out who you are. And I think of that as a process of trial and error. And that's another thing that I tell students, that get ready to try this and try that. Try and fail before you get where you're going. So that's my doctrine. Interesting. Writing advice via Dolly Parton. Who knew? You never know what you're gonna get when you get when you start at Zoom. This is great. How did you get started in writing to begin with? I pretty much always wanted to write. As a kid, I was a, you know, constant reader. My mother would say the house could burn down and you have your nose in the book. She was a reader herself who was afraid I was too dreamy. You know, as the daughter of immigrants, she wanted me to be more grounded, which I probably never ended up being. So my passion for reading made me want to try it, I certainly wrote a lot as a kid, you know, wrote stories in school, and was praised for that, so which always makes you want to continue. And I was an undergraduate at Sarah Lawrence at a time when you could study which it wasn't an undergraduate course for many years. Mean they were kind of advanced in that. Anyway, I just I always loved doing it. And I had a very long zigzagging career with a lot of ups and downs to it. And so then what did it feel like when you got to a place like with your last book when it got so many, you know, accolades and everything? I mean, what did that what was that like after

[8:54]Zibby Owens: not that your other ones weren't successful as well, but just like that it seemed like that hit was like the pinnacle of literary success.

[9:01]Joan Silber: How what did that feel like to you? Well, of course it was great. I enjoyed it. I was celebrating and celebrating. But one thing that I've had a zigzagging career in that between the second and the third book, there were thirteen years when I couldn't get a book published. I was publishing stories in good places but nobody wanted to publish a book of mine. I my ratings have changed during those years of feat. I call it my thirteen years in the desert. But one of the things that that does for you, among other things, is it taught me to live without the work being happily received by the world. Writers need that. Know, you can't as much as I enjoy people loving the work, can't rest entirely on other people's opinion. You have to be able to go on without that. So I already sort of had a little of that under my belt when the good stuff happened and I think that also you know it helped me enjoy it in a different way but I was totally pleased and you know hope that everyone who ever said anything bad about me read the review or anything like that. It's sort of natural. But it's

[10:02]Zibby Owens: been a great time for me. So when you look back on the writing you did during those thirteen years, do you understand now why it didn't sell? Or are you still sort of like, what what what was it? Why wouldn't it Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100 European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand mark up. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your gonna looking next the the

[12:39]Joan Silber: I think there's two reasons. One is that I mean, think the work developed during that time, and I was able to I think my writing style, my voice, has always been sort of similar. So that kind of mix of a certain amount of wisecracking but a fairly serious narrative and a kind of intimate gaze on the interior of the characters. But I always wanted to sort of be bigger and I couldn't quite figure out how to do it. During various hard times in my life I developed an interest in Buddhism. For many years even before that I was a buddy for gay men's health crisis, so I was around those emergencies. All of that sort of fed into the work. I think the work got better is you know one answer to you know what happened. But I also think the world changed. So I think that I'm lucky now in that I mean and also the world can change again as we know it keeps doing. But I think that people like it. For the one I first started doing this form, the first book in this form, Ideas of Heaven, was quite successful but there were a number of people who thought that it really wanted to be something else, right? Doesn't she want to write a regular novel? Why is she hopping around? And now people know that I'm doing that on purpose. They may or may not like it but they understand that it's intentional and that you know I have an idea behind it. And I also think because I move around in time and sometimes move around geographically usually move around geographically because I'm a great traveler and the world is more ready for that than it once was. So two things that you know I mean that I changed and the the responses of the reading public changed. Interesting.

[14:17]Zibby Owens: No. I love that change in in location, if you will, because it gets you at like, I really feel when I'm immersed in a book like yours that I'm in those places. Right? Like, I am in the prison in Thailand, like, trying or Bangkok or whatever, trying to rescue the the brother and, like, bribing people. And then I'm all the way back home, and then I'm you know, it's like you feel you get all those senses, like, evoked in your mind, like magic. So I really enjoy that. Like, I've never been to Bangkok, and now I have a little bit more of a I feel like I've experienced it in a new way because of how you present it to me, which I just think is the greatest. Thank you. I have been to Bangkok, you know, a number of times, but I have never been to a police station.

[15:01]Joan Silber: Many Westerners have and have written about it. So I was at least, I mean, who knows? You know, I tried to be as accurate as I could and I have some sense of it from reading all that stuff. I love doing research. That's really fun for me. And what is it like when you're doing research, you're preparing to write, when you're actually writing? Like, you at that desk where I'm seeing you now or where do you like to do your writing? How much research do you do before you start? What's your whole process like? It's a back and forth sort of thing. So I try and, you know, be at my desk whenever I have The writing time for me is between lunch and dinner, which is a little eccentric. People usually work in the morning. But when I'm working I might like okay I know I have I know I have to have a scene in a police station right I know that I need to know more about it so I'll look online usually there's also there there are a couple books by people who are arrested for drugs in Thailand that I was able to read. So I'm doing some reading while I'm writing. I will have done some reading maybe in the morning, you know, to get me going. And then there's a kind of back and forth. I'm a very slow writer and I do the thing that you're always told not to do which is I revise as I go. I look at what I read the day before. I say oh no that's that's you know and I fool with it and then I keep going but that actually helps me. Right now I have a normal taste. I mean a novel comes out every three and a half years that's sort of regular. But I like doing that. But I loved but in between sections so okay, so I finished the chapters are pretty separate from each other, so I'll finish one section. Okay, I finished the section about the brother I should say this for people who haven't read the book, the father has had a long time affair with this woman from Thailand who is really set up as his second wife in in Queens, and there are two sons by that connection, and I follow one of the sons around for one chapter. Okay, So when and he has to bail his the other son out of jail in Bangkok. So once I finished that section, I think, Oh, what's the next one gonna be? And I had a left behind girlfriend who had a whole other adventure, so I decided I was going to follow her around. So then I start researching the next section before I write and I loved doing that. Mean research is more fun much more fun than writing so I you know I do that as long as I can.

[17:21]Zibby Owens: That's really interesting. I love that. So you don't know ahead of time which characters you're going to be following. It's whoever pops up?

[17:28]Joan Silber: Sometimes, I mean, I knew that I was going to follow the brothers once I finished the first chapter. But no, don't and I knew that I was going to come back to the Ethan as the narrating character for the first chapter and I knew I wanted to come back to him in the end. But that's really all I know.

[17:43]Zibby Owens: Also I always tell my students to write a synopsis and know where they're going and so forth And I just have very rough notes. I don't really do that. It's like that director, what's his name, Robert Altman? You know that he used to do all those movies where you would like follow one character and then you'd go right into the next person and you just kind of like are bouncing around? Do you know what you're talking about? What was that called? Like shortcuts or I don't know. This is I'm really Shortcuts is a movie of his. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where I pulled that out. That was from like the eighties or something. Anyway, it reminded me a little of that. So what are you working on now? So now I'm working on a book that I'm in the third chapter, but the first chapters are a little messier than usual.

[18:22]Joan Silber: And the premise is a guy who's now perfectly successful and stable and is a 70 year old father of a daughter in college, is asked by his daughter what's the worst thing you've ever done? And the worst thing he doesn't tell her, but he tells us the worst thing he's ever done is when he was using drugs in the 70s, was shooting heroin, and he betrays a friend at a bad moment and is haunted by that for the rest of his life. He's not entirely sure of the outcome of that, but he knows he did the wrong thing. So that's the first story and we follow him through his whole life. And the second story follows a girlfriend of his from that time who's become a successful actress. I thought of her as one of those people during this last campaign I got emails frequently from famous people who wanted me to give money to the Democratic Party, and she is she is an imagined version of one of those people, and she has a whole other life story. And then in a movie that she's very successful in, she plays a character in 1935 Hong Kong who's smoking opium, because there's a drug motif in this book, and almost dies doing it, but but doesn't. So now I decided to make that character she plays an actual person that the movie was based on, and I am inventing things. So I'm I'm reading about 1930s Hong Kong, is really fun. Wow. That's great. So you also enjoy dipping into different

[19:53]Zibby Owens: authors to take us places and everything. Excellent. Okay. Well, what's one last parting advice for aspiring authors, someone just starting out? I usually I have like three things I always say, which is cultivate equanimity. Don't say any of those three things. Say something totally new, something that you don't say all the time. Oh,

[20:11]Joan Silber: I think the most important thing is for people to ask more of themselves, I think. Because you're happy when something's done that sounds okay, and you often you have to go deeper in it to make it worth someone's reading. You want to say what only you can say, you know, than imitate. So that's my my somewhat garbled advice. I love it. That's great. Amazing.

[20:37]Zibby Owens: Well Joan, thank you so much. Thanks for shining some lights on the secrets of happiness here, shining some light, I should say, on the secrets of happiness. And I really appreciate it. It was great to chat with you. Thank you. It was great to be here. Thank you. Take care. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and momsdon'thavetime to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.