Karin Slaughter, FALSE WITNESS: A Novel

[1:08]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Libby Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write a New Publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay now back to this amazing podcast. Karen Slaughter is the author of False Witness, a novel. Karen is one of the world's most popular and acclaimed storytellers Published in 120 countries with more than 35,000,000 copies sold across the globe, her 21 novels include the Grant Counties and Will Trent books as well as the Edgar nominated Cop Town and the Instant New York Times bestselling standalone novels Pretty Girls, The Good Daughter and Pieces of Her. Slaughter is the founder of the Save the Libraries Project, a nonprofit organization established to support libraries and library programming which now I realize I forgot to even ask her about so sorry about that. A native of Georgia, she lives in Atlanta. Her standalone novel Pieces of Her is in development with Netflix and the Grant County and Wilt Trent series are in development for television. Welcome, Karen. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss False Witness and your just amazing career in general. Well, thank you. So False Witness, how would you describe this book to people who haven't read it?

[2:44]Karin Slaughter: Yeah. Well, you know, it's really hard to describe it without giving so much away. But in essence, it's about two sisters who experience something super traumatic in the early part of their lives. And we catch up with them twenty something years later. And of course, this being a thriller, that horrific thing is knocking on their door again. And we find out what what has happened to them subsequent to that, you know, I'm really interested in trauma and particularly childhood trauma and how it affects you as an adult. And we know all kinds of terrible things like it can lead to depression or predilection toward alcoholism or drug addiction or things such as heart disease, diabetes, all this stuff. So, you know, I wanted to really put in a microcosm how this trauma changed the trajectory of these two sisters lives in very meaningful ways and still haunts them because, I mean, we're all going through a worldwide trauma right now.

[3:47]Zibby Owens: So it seemed kind of a relevant thing to talk about. And it wasn't just the trauma for the girls, but also for the child they were babysitting at the time. And I won't give anything away. But I loved how you fast forwarded into the future as someone who used to babysit a lot and who employs babysitters. Now I have four kids. This whole scene that you depicted and then how it all sort of got interwoven later to see sort of the kid you babysit grow up and what happens and the whole family and all of the interrelations. Yeah. There's just seems to be an overwhelming amount of of trauma for all the characters involved.

[4:24]Karin Slaughter: Absolutely. And, you know, I never really babysat because I was the youngest of three girls. And there's a scene in the book where a guy who one of the characters is babysitting for is listening to Holland Oates and his hand wanders to her leg. And that actually happened to me. And I remember telling my sister who used to babysit for him, you know, hey, this happened. She's like, Oh, yeah, he just does that. Like, it was no big deal that this 30, 40 year old man was putting his hand on a 13 year old girl's knee in the car listening to Hall and Oates. I mean, it was just so crazy that it was just something we totally accepted as that happens. And it's gross and weird and,

[5:08]Zibby Owens: you know, don't tell anybody. Wow. And in the book, too, you know, it was so repressed, as you mentioned it, or she, you know, sort of pushed it down so hard that she never even thought to warn her other sister that this might happen to her too, even though it wasn't exactly the same as your experience. Yeah, it's weird because I think that as women, we just get these silent messages all our lives.

[5:30]Karin Slaughter: Some of them not so silent. I mean, I grew up on VC Andrews, right? And there's some really horrible messages in there. But not a lot has changed. Because if you look at some of these vampire books for young girls, it's like, yeah, it's okay if he almost kills you when you have sex because he really loves you. I mean, we're continually continually reinforcing reinforcing these messages that how a man feels is more important loves than how a woman or a girl feels. So that was something I really wanted to expose and talk about in a way that showed you, well, this is what happens to that girl who felt gross because this old man put his hand on her knee. Yeah. And even in the most, you know, horrific scene that you have in this story, when it first opened, I wasn't I didn't realize how young the character was. Did you do that on purpose? Or was I just did I miss? I did. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it was just kind of a play with the reader about how we when young women are sexualized, they lose their their right to be young women, particularly if they're women of color. Right. Our girls of color are, you know, we do this with men to our young men. They're not boys. If they commit a crime, suddenly they're men. So the time period this is set in is shortly after the Amy Fisher story became international news. And Amy Fisher was a young teenage girl who was seduced by this child molester. I mean, he was Joey Buttafuoco was in his thirties or forties, you know, and he trafficked her. I mean, but she was the villain. And, you know, in one one way you can say rightfully so, because she did try to kill Joey's wife. Right. But also she was a child and she was manipulated. But as soon as this happened, the focus was on her being Long Island Lolita. Right. And we gave her all this agency and all this ability to control this poor married guy who ended up having an affair. And the guy's a douche, right? There's nothing sexy about this guy. She wasn't attracted to him the way a young girl is attracted to a young boy. Right. She was attracted to him because he had money and he was telling her to do things, you know, that were crazy. And he was, you know, he knew he was grooming her for all the things that she did for him. And that kind of got lost in the sensationalism

[8:07]Zibby Owens: of it. Though I will say I did love the Drew Barrymore movie. She was like the best Amy Fisher. I didn't see that movie, but I do remember this being on, like, in People Magazine every week as I grew up. I used to, like, cut out do remember in People Magazine back in the day, they had, like, the little corner images? I used to I used to collect those. I haven't thought about this in, a hundred years, but it's, cut those out and save all the little corner features. And anyway, so yes, I was well aware Is of this scrap the somewhere that will be very embarrassing if your children ever find it? I don't have them anymore. I don't have them anymore. Although that would have been very interesting to reflect back on, but no, now they're gone. But anyway, all to say, yes, that was all over the news and all over everywhere, especially, you know, during the time when I was like growing up and, you know, all of that. It's very formative. And I think it's also interesting how in your book, you take this like very accomplished lawyer who's, like, in her element and has made like, sort of done good with her life, so to speak, and has a kid, and you're at the school play. And she's just, like, full of confidence in the way you want, like, a child to sort of grow up to be a woman. Then immediately, it's, like, completely pulled out, the rug is pulled out from under her. And she's like, and the way you even say that she answered that first question, like in her teenage voice, you know, you like completely take us back to how she felt and oh my gosh. I mean, your ability to be honest of getting someone in a scene is amazing. And I'm sure that must be why you're like, just like so uber successful. Like you put us all in there. And so it's almost like, you know, I tried to read this book. My husband was sitting next to me and he kept interrupting me and I'm like, you don't understand like what I'm going through right now. Like, I'm like fighting on the kitchen floor and there's a knife and oh my gosh. Anyway, so yeah. How how do you how do you do that? How how do you do that? Well, you know, the opening so what you're talking about with a prologue, it it was just really playing on people's expectations.

[10:04]Karin Slaughter: You know? And I wanted to set up that character in a very lovable way, you know, in a very relatable way, because I knew that you're going to have to take this. And I hate to say, say journey of a character because it sounds sounds like such an asshole writer thing to say. But, you know, I'll just say you're going to go through some shit with her, and she's going to be doing some stuff that you would not normally root for. Right? But I wanted her to have this humanity, and I wanted the reader to understand almost from the first paragraph who she was. And I think, you know, one of the things I have to do a lot of research on is mothers because I don't have children that I know of. And, you know, that is so I can research like, you know, head trauma and all all this other stuff. And I find it fascinating. But when I look at kids stuff, I just feel like a cold sweat. I mean, I literally never even held a baby until I was in my thirties, and I was doing a book event and someone wanted me to hold their toddler. And first I was like, Jesus, his head won't even stay up. What is going on here? And the woman looked at me like, What is wrong with you? And I looked at her like, Have you read my books? Do you really think that I should have a baby? You know, that's another story, though. But so I was doing a lot of research for that first chapter where you meet Lee, one of the sisters, into mommy blogs. And one of the things I saw was this cartoon that said, know, the the kids you see at the school play, and it was the nose picker and the mama's boy and the stage hog. And my first thought was it had never occurred to me that people actually do that. I thought that was like a trope on television, you know, where you have to go to a play because, I mean, I can't. That's like Bin Laden stuff, right? I mean, terrorists, why would you have to sit through that? And so I just started thinking about Lee, and maybe she's got her husband, Walter, playing fantasy football on his phone. And maybe she's like, Well, if there's an apocalypse, like what mom fantasy team would I want? So I'd want the one who always has snacks and who punched a dog who tried to bite her kid, right, or made the math teacher cry or who will screw anybody, you know? So she's building out her team. And to me, I think that's something that everybody's done at some point, like if it's an office or at the grocery store or whatever, you know, if things start to get real, who's going to be with me and who's going to be running away? And maybe maybe that's just me because I watch a lot of Walking Dead shows. But you know, I thought that's a really good way to show her as a survivor. Because she's thinking about that all the time. She's thinking about where the doors are and who's the strongest one and you know, who's gonna be able to run with her shoulder to shoulder. Yeah, you definitely have a dark side, I have to say. I mean, have you always had this? Like, were these the kind of stories you were drawn to forever? Oh, absolutely. You know, when I was a kid, I started writing books. Before I was in kindergarten, I would write books. And I told you I have two older sisters and most of the stories were my sisters get mutilated or they're kidnapped. And I didn't really understand storytelling, but because the happy ending was they would disappear and no one cared. And I was an only child. But my dad loved these books and he would give me a quarter for each one. And so I'm like, I'm writing sequels and, you know, like more than Fast and Furious at a certain point. I have all these things about my sisters being murdered. But that's also a southern thing because we just really have a sense of maybe it's because it's when I was growing up, more so a kind of agrarian sort of culture where horrendous farm accidents happen. And, you know, I got a lot of redneck uncles who smoke pot and do heavy machinery stuff. So they're missing fingers and feet and, you know, things like that. So that's like totally, totally a southern thing where every everybody's got an Uncle Scooter who got hit in the head and he's just not right since then. How did your sisters feel reading book after book about their own demise? Well, you know, they weren't really my demographic. So when I did my little sales charts, they were not included in my demographic. Well, you know, one of my sisters is dyslexic, so she had no idea. And the other one was so much older than me that she had nothing to do with me anyway. So I got away with it. But I love those kinds of stories. I love puzzles. I mean, everything I read generally has a puzzle to it. And, you know, I don't know. I love Eric Larson, but a lot of his books read more fictionally than nonfiction used to read. You know, like he has somebody's eyes gleaming and I'm like, Well, excuse me, sir, this is nonfiction. I don't think so. But I love his. I love that kind of fictionalized nonfiction. And generally, when you read history, there's a lot of murder and violence. And, you know, I mean, look at the Bible. It's so violent. So there's a lot of good stories in in that you can find in other genres too, but they don't call them crime fiction because smart people like them.

[15:25]Zibby Owens: So was there anything, I'm just curious, was there anything in your own childhood, aside from, you know, wanting your sisters to disappear, that caused you to mean, like, I'm imagining you like little you, like going to a child psychiatrist, what that person would have said at the time. And like, was there anything going on that sort of like You know, not really.

[15:45]Karin Slaughter: And when I was growing up, you didn't send a kid to a psychiatrist. You just kind of popped him in the back of the head and told him to straighten up. But I do remember when I was in junior high, you know, those baby on board signs are really popular. And I had a Volkswagen Beetle and I put dead at the top. So it said dead baby on my gosh. You were too much. And I parked it in the parking lot and, you know, I'm at lunch and I get called to the principal's office and my dad's there. And, you know, he's got his own space by then. This is not the first something like this would happen. And the principal told him what was going on. And my dad was like, Well, is there a rule against that? No, it's just in poor taste. And, you know, like when I taped a picture of Marilyn Monroe after the autopsy to my lunchbox, you know? And my dad said, You know what? She's weird. She's always been weird, and we love her. But don't call me up for this shit anymore. And he just walked out and he, put his hand on my shoulder like, you know, come on, kid. And the principal, like, what can you do to that? Right? You can't punish someone for being weird. So it's something that everybody's always known about me, I suppose. But, you know, I will say when I first started writing, I would have so many women come up to me and say, Oh, you know, I can't tell anybody I like reading these books. And I was like, Why? You know, my grandmother was that way. She read this magazine called True Crime magazine that was basically snuff. And it was like all of these things were like the last line was she should have listened to her husband or her father was right. You know, that sort of thing. When they were these women get slashed and raped and murdered. She was so embarrassed that she read it that one year when we got her a subscription for it because she would have to go to the piggly wiggly on the bad side of town to get it right. They didn't have it at our Kroger. They didn't carry that trash, but she would get it every Sunday. And we're like, Let's get this for Christmas. So she didn't have to go to the Piggly Wiggly. And we gave her the subscription and she burst into tears. And she said, I don't want the mailman to know I read this. So, you know, now women are like, Yeah, I'm interested in this. I mean, look, podcasts, true crime stuff all over. I mean, people are more open to it. But when I first started out, people were weirdly embarrassed about being interested in it. It's like, hey, ladies, this shit's happening to our people. Maybe we should know more about it. Today's

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[20:30]Zibby Owens: Oh, so how did you become a writer? Just like the brief version. So you you knew you always wanted to do this. You started writing stories. And then what happened? You went to college, maybe you started writing. I don't know about you, but like college made me never want to write it or read again.

[20:45]Karin Slaughter: And I and I was a really poor student. So I took all my English classes I could. And like, I remember I got called out. I get called out a lot, like a graduate level English class. And they said, how did you get in this class? And I was my professor signed off there. You have not taken any core classes like math or, you know, intro to whatever. And so I dropped out because I just didn't. And I knew I was a bad student, such a bad student. So I didn't belong there anyway. I was just having fun wasting my hard earned money. But, you know, I did a lot of different jobs and I started back writing again. But when I got really serious about it, I owned a sign company. I had done a lot of things. I was an exterminator, a house painter, you know, just crazy stuff. But I sold my sign business so that I could concentrate on writing. And I at the time, I thought 30 was really old. I was 26. So I was like, I got to get published by him 30 because I'll be dead by then. Right? And so I got my contract at 29, but at 26, that's when I really thought I need to really pay attention and hunker down and do this before I am too elderly to hold a pen anymore. So that and I got my first book, Dale 29. It was published when I turned 30. Here we are. Wow.

[22:10]Zibby Owens: So do you just have so many stories always circulating in your head? And it's like, how do you come up with how how do you even decide which one to write next? How do you decide when you're gonna I know you have these two series about specific characters versus some of your standalone work, like Pieces of Her, which is being made into Netflix. I wanna hear about that too. How do you decide? Like, how do you it sounds like you just have a bazillion ideas and scenes and everything in your head, and they're all just, like, screaming to come out. Yeah. That's about how it is. But, you know, it has to be something I feel really passionate about because I'm gonna when I'm actually writing, I'm going to spend a year with that

[22:46]Karin Slaughter: story with those characters. So there has to be a hook in it for me that makes me want to write about them because you're right. I do have a lot of different ideas, a lot of different stories. I've got a new one for Will and Sarah that's not quite there yet. So I'm working on this one, you know, that I came up with maybe four or five books ago. It's just an idea I scribbled down that I thought might be really interesting. And that's the one I'm working on. So it's just whatever kind of, you know, I think when you're a writer, you don't choose to be a writer, it chooses you. And I think the stories choose you as well. Interesting.

[23:23]Zibby Owens: And I also love how in this book, you overlay the COVID experience and the pandemic and how you found a way to sort of weave that into fiction without having it sort of hijack the story. Yeah, that was really important to me because I wanted it to be set during the pandemic,

[23:41]Karin Slaughter: but not about it. And so I was, you know, fortunately, I've written a lot of books, so I'm pretty good at encapsulating certain details because everything, as you know, was shifting and changing. And and I just wanted to capture the flavor of it because there are things that we're going to forget. Like in Atlanta, all the distillery stopped making booze and started making hand sanitizers. So, you know, when I was a kid and the teacher would pass out dittos, we'd all smell because the ink would make you high. So we were all smelling the dittos and the teacher would scream, stop smelling the dittos. But like with the sanitizer, people are like, oh, that's rum. That's tequila. You know, it sounds smelled like under the bleachers at the prom. And that's I think that's going to be lost, you know, in a few years, those little small details. So, you know, or when someone coughs, you look at them like, Are you trying to kill me? You know, that kind of thing. And also the difference between the privileged, like I'll say myself who works from home, I'm very introverted. I've been preparing for the pandemic lifestyle my entire life, you know, and I don't have insecurity financially or food or, you know, all that stuff. It was still very anxious for me, but not like someone on the front lines. And so with the book, you know, Lee has a privileged life. She's at a white shoe law firm. Everyone around her takes the virus very seriously. Her sister, Callie, kind of lives on the margins of society and taking her health seriously is a luxury she does not have. She has to be out in the middle of it. She has to be hustling, you know, trying to get food and rent and that kind of stuff. So, you know, wearing a mask and, you know, being able to stop and wash your hands and be socially distance is laughable to her because it's just her life is not built for taking care of herself. And that's what we see a lot in society. Even pre pandemic is where we have this dearth of of health care for people who really need it because they just don't have time, resources,

[25:48]Zibby Owens: any of the support that people who are a little better off do. You compared it so interestingly to the AIDS crisis in your author's note, which I know has been sort of bandied about, or whatever that word is. But you talked a lot about it and the sort of the shame behind it and the transmission and how everybody just kept changing their mind about what the rules were. And I feel like you also put that in so well. Yeah. You know, and it's

[26:14]Karin Slaughter: crazy because I make mistakes all the time. I don't know about you, but I like and when there's something new, I have to learn what this new thing is. And I don't understand why people don't understand science is the same way, especially people who have been through the AIDS crisis, because at first they're saying, don't kiss anyone, don't eat, you know, off. You need to sanitize utensils and don't hug them, don't touch them. I mean, there's that iconic moment where Diana, Lady Diana, hugged an AIDS patient and everybody was like, Oh, you know, she's going to die. And she didn't. And she knew she wouldn't die because of the science. So we just have to learn as we go along. And, you know, one thing the pandemic has done is it just like has sucked up all the forgiveness that people have, which is really crazy because people are just so angry and so ready to pounce. And I always you know, I can have a short temper at the grocery store just like the next person. But I find myself saying, wait a minute, is this person who dropped a grape I stepped on? Is that really genocide? Or should I just kind of back off and let it go? You know, because I just I feel that too. But there's just this lack of compassion that we have in a really strange especially as an American. I mean, I was raised to like, we're all in this together. And if you're if you don't believe in my political party, you're like my crazy uncle. You're still my family. You know, I'm still going to have Thanksgiving with you. I might talk about you and we may make fun of you. But, you know, we're all in the same family. So it's just it's kind of crazy right now. I agree. So it's actually quite frightening to think about too much. So I try not.

[28:03]Zibby Owens: Very that's why we have good books. That's why we have yearbooks. You can go all the way with your like doomsday scenarios and like the worst case and what ifs and you know, I'll be over here reading like lovely memoirs or something. No, I'm kidding. There Is you slaughter your real last name, by the way? It is. Yeah. Come by it honestly. I just had to ask. Wait, so tell me about all your film stuff now. How's all that going? It's so exciting, you know, primarily because it's a predominantly

[28:29]Karin Slaughter: female driven team. The show writer, the producer, most of the production staff, and the producer's husband obviously is a man. But, you know, it's the director. So it's really cool because, you know, thank you, me too, for letting this happen. You know, I think like five years ago, a set with all women, it would have been like this little knee show. How weird, you know, sort of thing. Whereas with a set with all men, it's like, yeah, that's going be fantastic. So I just really I'm really excited about that, to be honest. But I actually got to go to the set when they were filming in Atlanta and see how it was done. And it was so crazy because this thing that like three or four years ago, worked on on in my pajamas all alone. Suddenly, there's hundreds of people acting it out and doing, you know, it's like, wow, I cannot freaking believe this. It was a very surreal moment, but I'm super happy with what they're doing. They had to make some changes. I mean, people always say it's different from the book. Well, you know, in pieces of her, Andy, who's one of the main characters, she's driving around a lot in her car for many chapters. That is not riveting film. So, know, they had to make some changes and people have to talk. You know, you can't just have someone sitting there staring at the road. You have to have communication and all that. But I really like what they've done. And Tony Colette is freaking amazing. So and Bella Heathcote, who plays Andy is really I got to meet her. So I'm super excited. I don't know when it's going to come out. I mean, they never tell you these things,

[30:06]Zibby Owens: but I can't wait to see it. So cool. It's just so neat. It's just imagination and it's just crazy, A, that you can take it out of your head and even put it on the page and then to have the page then become the screen. It's wild. The whole thing is wild when you It is, it is. But you know, people forget that people who do television and film are also creative people.

[30:27]Karin Slaughter: So it's not an adaptation. It's an interpretation. Right. And they want to put their creative mark on it, too. Right. So, you know, it's like each each iteration, someone's going to put something different on it. And then the actors and the actresses like Toni Collette had a lot of input asking questions about her character and all that, you know, so they want to it's very collaborative in a way that would make me run screaming because I like my book and being in complete control of everything. And when I deliver it, my editor, of course, gives me notes and we talk about it. But having 100 people look at it and give me notes, I'd be like, Ah, no, can't do this. I'm going to go back to making some.

[31:11]Zibby Owens: Grabbing the exterminating. Yeah, that's right. Back up. So what advice would you have for aspiring authors?

[31:19]Karin Slaughter: Read. I know and it's so crazy just but your your brain is a muscle. If you're a writer, and if you read a bad book or a book you think is bad, you're learning why you think it's bad. And if you're reading a great book, think about and analyze why you think it's great. So that's my first advice. The second advice, people are like, I screw you. That's horrible advice. Sit down and do it. I mean, that is the hardest part. Everybody on Earth has at least one fantastic idea for a book. That is not the hard part. Is sitting down, figuring out how to express it with character, how to move the plot along, how to build suspense. Even if you're not writing crime, you have to have suspense. There has to be the mystery of character, as Flannery O'Connor called it. So that is the work of being a writer. And unfortunately,

[32:11]Zibby Owens: you have to sit down and do it. Amazing. And perhaps just be a little weird.

[32:16]Karin Slaughter: Yeah. Yeah. Or a lot. A lot. Yeah. Okay.

[32:19]Zibby Owens: Well, you so much. Thanks for coming on Moms Don't Have to Read Books. Thanks for discussing False Witness and yeah, I can't wait to see what comes next.

[32:28]Karin Slaughter: Well, great. Thank you. It's been a delight. Thank you. Take care. Bye bye. Bye.

[32:33]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.