Sara Shepard, SAFE IN MY ARMS

[1:40]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to: A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen Vaccine Research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. Sarah Shepard is the number one New York Times bestselling author of the Pretty Little Liars series, the Lion Game series, the Heiresses, the Elizas, the Perfectionist series, Reputation, and now her latest book, Safe in My Arms. We did this event as a part of Penguin Bookshop, and we had so much fun doing this to launch her book together. So I thought you would all like to hear it. There's also a tiny little clip of us, not so tiny, maybe ten minutes, on GMA Book Club's Instagram account at GMA Book Club. You can go there and watch us live as well. Listen in. Hi, Sarah. So glad we're doing this again. I'm so excited to be chatting with you. Congratulations on pub day for safe in my arm. Oh my gosh. Thank you. So, Sarah, for those people who don't know anything about this book, which obviously is far from your first, but definitely, obviously, your most recent, what is Safe in My Arms about? And what inspired you to write this book aside? And, like, where can we get a backpack that says a novel sort of written in like this? The coolest thing ever. Yeah, want the backpack.

[3:21]Sara Shepard: So the book is about three moms who are sort of newcomers to this area. It's very exclusive, but made up, totally made up area. In California, I find that it's better that I make up settings because then people can't be like, That's my town. And how are you Why are you saying these things about my town? Or whatever. So it's a completely fictitious place. And they sort of become unlikely friends and are keeping some secrets from the community that are all very kind of poignant about, you know, have something to do with motherhood and how they came to be mothers. They sort of unwillingly kind of get involved in this scandal and are blamed for this event that happens. And I don't want to give too much away. And mostly it's just kind of unraveling what that is and sort of the secrets of this community and of the school. And I feel like I can't say too much more, or I will spoil something. I was inspired to write it. It's funny, this book started out as, and like the original title of the Word document was daycare horror. And it was a very different story. And it was mostly, you know, I was trying to think of book ideas and I was sort of like, let's think of the worst case scenario of things that could happen to your children. And I was doing all this reading about daycares in which a child unfortunately passes away in their care. And that was sort of, that's not what this book is about. Is, moved I didn't away from write. Yeah. That is the book I did not write. But the characters that are in this book sort of came from that book. And I didn't get honestly that far of this sort of, it was more originally kind of about this awful thing that happens and a community trying to kind of figure out how that happened and how that could have happened. And then my editor wisely said, I don't know if we want it like about things happening to children. And I'm like, you know what? I understand that. But it sort of came out of that. It was the kind of worst case scenarios. Like, as a young, or I'm not a young mother, as a mother to young children. And yeah, it evolved kind from there, as books do. They're always evolving.

[5:47]Zibby Owens: Well, it was great that you sort of set the scene at this crazy, well, now toned down post recession ish time, right, at the script. And you sort of poke fun at the things that are no longer there, like all the catering and, you know, the past hors d'oeuvres, and that this is sort of toned down for them. And yet here are these three new moms sort of sneaking Baileys in the corner, you know? And I was like, should I have been doing that? Like, I've never, If there's wine available, fine. But spiking my drink from my purse. That's one step. I don't know. Maybe they had a lot more fun, but Well, I mean, the one mom brings it just because she's

[6:27]Sara Shepard: really nervous about joining this group of people. So it doesn't come from I want to be super fun, like the super fun parent. Although I feel like I've known those people too. Though never to that extent. I've never been at a school event where, especially in the morning where somebody Exactly.

[6:46]Zibby Owens: I mean, it's not even a cocktail party. I once went to a school, like it was in the library at my kid's school. I probably shouldn't even say this, and this is not about you. But I get there and like, I ran over to the wine station and somebody was this other mom was there and she was like, is this like a nightly occurrence for you? And I was like, what? No. We're at like a cocktail party. What are you talking what else am I supposed to do? Like, anyway so I appreciated that. I also appreciated how when Lauren is feeling like she's losing her mind, she has her child Matthew and her husband Graham, and Graham is, like, always turning stuff around so that she thinks she's nuts, which I think every mother has sort of or parent has felt at one time or another. How she's just like, I've had it with everything being attributed to mom brain. Like, it is, you know, over and over. Like, tell me a little bit about that.

[7:33]Sara Shepard: I mean, that definitely was something I experienced, especially with my first child. Just, and I was kind of making myself like think, you know, second guessing myself and my decisions and like my emotions and all of that. And is it, you know, forgetfulness and taking people's reactions to things like blowing it up and sort of, Is this like hormones? Is this my brain? And then I kind of stepped back and looked at it later and thought, No, not completely. And I think that's the thing that's just so murky about being a parent, but especially being a mom, is that there are these kind of constructs set up of like, this is kind of, know, of course everybody's just tired and forgetful. And like, you know, it's not us, it's you. You're just, maybe, I don't know. It's just kind of very Kind of wanted to explore that a little bit. And at the same time, she is overtired. It is a real thing. You are overtired and you're thrown into this completely new experience of having a child and not knowing what that is and not knowing if you're doing it right. And I think that's another sort of big theme kind of undercurrent of this mystery and this thriller is that neither all three of these moms feel like they're not doing it right. And nobody really knows that they're doing it right. But I feel like, yeah, a mom brain definitely is a little bit of a source subject for me. And it wasn't really with my second kid, because then I was just like, No, this isn't I know I can distinguish. But with the first, I felt like I was It's just like a little bit of gaslighting. Gaslighting is always a fun little kind of plot twist to throw any novel.

[9:37]Zibby Owens: So wait, I have to hear about how you structured. I know you said some of these characters were from the daycare horror. Daycare horror, which like will keep me up tonight just even thinking about. But you had so many different like, I know it's three moms, but then you have the care, the daycare director and her assistant and then everybody's kind of extended family and their kids and all there are a lot of characters that you develop very quickly. So what was the secret behind that? How did you do that? Did you like draw a chart to whose kid is who and the names and what their main thing was? Because everybody has some thing, right? Each like a big thing. So how did you go What about is issue they're dealing with?

[10:19]Sara Shepard: I don't know. I usually can keep characters straight in my head pretty well. I mean, also I went through a lot of drafts. I mean, obviously it was probably not as clear in the first draft as it was in the fifth draft of this book. But even writing any of my other books, writing my other series, I usually have a lot of characters. I usually just get into worlds that there are just a lot of people. And sometimes people do say like, There aren't so many characters in this book, any book that I write. But it probably comes from the original series that I wrote, Pretty Little Liars, where there were four main characters. They each had a thing and they each had a very distinct personality. And it was just working on that. And I got kind of used to working with multiple characters and then sort of building out who their families were all that stuff. I'm sure I kept some sort of chart. I don't know where that chart is now, but I usually have a lot of Word documents and scribbles on pieces of paper of like who connects to who and like, you know, how it all makes sense and put notes in the document itself.

[11:27]Zibby Owens: So, so yeah, I mean, I think it was, it was keeping some of it in my head, but yeah, definitely kind of took notes on kind of how it all fit together. It's a big world. Yeah. Yeah. It's a big world. So can we talk about like Andrea's issue, if you will, or her what makes her unique? Or is that like a plot twist? I'm like, mindful of not ruining it. No, I don't think it's a plot twist. No. I don't think so. Central to who she is. Right? Sure. Yeah. You do it in a really interesting way. And I feel like it's not too far along. So I was hoping I could just No. It's probably her first chapter. Yeah. So it's like Yeah. Don't know, page 40 ish or something. So can I can I read this paragraph? Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. Okay. You write, she hurried into the bathroom. At the mirror, she leaned in close and inspected the lines on her face and the nakedness of her features. A swipe of lipstick here, a blot of concealer there. Hang on, let me put on my face for the day, her mother Cynthia used to say. When she was a teenager, Cynthia's boudoir became Andrea's favorite guilty pleasure, beholding her mom's giant vanity of colors, labels, scents, all those private hours of slathering and puffing and brushing, and then hastily waving what hastily wiping it all off when she heard her mother's key in the door down the long, long hall. Because back then, Andrea wasn't a her in her mother's eyes. Andrea was her mother's son. Which I had gotten no glimpses of until that sentence. So then you like, Oh, wow. Okay. I had no idea. I don't know. Maybe I'm like, not the best reader or something. Don't know. I thrillers are continually surprising me. Like, I'm I don't know. I but so anyway, I just like didn't pick up on that until then. So I found it to be very powerful. Wow. No, that's interesting. That's good. I you know, I think there was like tiny hints in the scene where they're all together, but in the very beginning, but like, nothing

[13:17]Sara Shepard: very heavy handed. I think we sort of went back and forth on how much, you know, how observant. Because it's sort of a, the first chapter where they're all together is sort of this omniscient narrator. So you don't, it's just sort of looking at everything objectively and not getting a lot of internal thoughts from each of the characters. So I don't think that's so out of Yeah, you're not a bad reader for not picking up on that. Yeah. But at the same time, it's not really a secret. It's not, know? But that is a bit why Andrea brought the Baileys to the breakfast.

[13:56]Zibby Owens: Found I don't know what was our question. No, no. I was gonna say, like, I found it super interesting to read about a mom whose transitioning you detailed, you know, quite you detailed in quite a detailed way. But you had, you know, the twelve months and the hormones and this and that. And also, all the interpersonal issues it brought up within her fam, his her family. Yeah. Especially coming from this big deal, real estate honcho, powerful New York family, and this very, you know, proper mom and with her brother. And then here she is taking off to the West Coast and starting over from scratch and trying to pretend to be someone she's not, and how you ended up depicting her character and how she handled everything. So I was wondering about creating that particular type of mom and if you did research into and then because, of course, you then you have her blogging about microaggressions and all things like that. So where did that come from? Certain did you get informed by somebody you knew? Or was that a compilation of a lot of research? Or how did that come about? Yeah, it was both. I feel like I follow a few

[15:04]Sara Shepard: trans women on Instagram, or parents who have transitioned actually, they're male to female or female to male, and have found it always an interesting look at parenthood and obviously kind of changes, not what sort of parent you are at all, but sort of how the world is seeing you and what that means. And I just thought it would be a really interesting character to explore. And what sort of, what does that mean within the community? How does that mean as a parent? And the thing that like Andrea's son kind of is like, why just see you as my parent? Like, you know, it's And I did a lot of research on that. I read a lot of books and talked to people on Instagram, but then I also had a really great sensitivity reader who really informed me about certain things that I did not even think about that would be triggering to somebody or a person would be maybe sensitive about and sort of to play up certain moments and other things So, like it was like in early draft, it was more of a secret that Andrea was trying to keep. Not really from the community, but just like even trying to keep from her mom. And then I kind of thought about that and I didn't want it to seem shameful, even though the family She comes from this super masculine dad and brother. And they are not aware, but that's only because her mom was like, You can't tell. They are not to know. I didn't Even though they sort of have their own opinions about it, I didn't want it to be about any kind of shame. I wanted it be about other things in Andrea's life besides this, you know, new journey that she's going on, where she really does feel like so much better about herself. But yeah, no, it was really interesting. It was a lot of reading and a lot of just making sure that the details were correct. I was doing it in a sensitive way. And I think that's, you know, something that's really great that's come out of publishing in the last ten or so years is that these voices that authors want, we all want to explore people who are not like us all the time, because that sometimes gets boring. But we also want to make sure that we're sort of doing justice to their experience and like, you know, kind of telling it in a way that isn't just completely imagined and we have really no idea what they're going through and all of that. So that is like the long answer. Andrew was a great, I just, doing all that research and sort of thinking about Andrew, was like, it was a really, they were all really fun characters because they all are kind of dealing with very different issues and pretty intense pasts and secrets and all of that. All that fun stuff. So hopefully, I would love to hear from some trans readers. I've heard a little bit on Instagram saying, I love that there was this sort of character. That's Years ago when Emily was my character in Pretty Little Liars and she is a teenager and realizing that she's gay. I have heard from readers who have said, that was the first teen gay character that I came upon as a teen reader. And that was a really powerful thing to me for me. Or even if somebody thinks I didn't get it right, I would like to hear either way. Yeah, it's a little scary to write somebody who's not totally like you. But hopefully I kind of spoke to enough people and got enough of the authentic kind of experience.

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[21:15]Zibby Owens: And so were you working on this during the pandemic? Is that when this was written or was it before?

[21:20]Sara Shepard: Yes. I think a draft. I think I wrote a draft. That's actually not true. I wrote a draft before it all happened and I kind of turned it in, I don't know, I would say like January 2020. I can't remember quite the timeline, But I got notes back maybe like Well, first of all, I thought publishing was just going to shut down. I was just like, Who's gonna read books anymore? Why are we even doing this? The world is crumbling. So I just was like, is this book ever going to see the light of day? I mean, I had no idea. But then people kept reading, so that was great. And my editor got back to me and then I had to do a revision of it. It was not mean, I wrote an essay for You actually that made it into the anthology right around that time that I probably got revisions back. It was really hard to write anything. And at least I had a draft. I think it would be harder to write something from scratch. Because at least I had a draft to work from, an editor's notes. But I think to have written something completely from scratch, I don't think I could have done it. You know, it's only this past year that I have gotten kind of more into, like I've been able to write, you know, from first draft kind of things again, but like, oh my gosh, like that was a rough time. But yeah, somehow it made it happen. Well,

[22:51]Zibby Owens: wrote many things. You have written many, many things over this. I mean, that's I don't write fiction. I couldn't like figure out a complicated, intense thriller with multiple characters. I like to just write about my life and what's happening. You are a member. That's how I process stuff. Right. It all helped me. But your essay, so it was in this anthology, Moms Don't Have Time to: A Quarantine Anthology. And just so people know, Sarah's essay is called These Days I'm Running to Stay Sane. Maybe I could just read a paragraph of that too. Oh, sure. Yeah. You know, and it's all about your running. And you said, I put on my shoes and slide headphones in my ears. If it's cold, I add a hat, sometimes with a pom pom on it, which bobs as I move, reminding me that it's still there. My gloves are sometimes high-tech ones from New Balance, but are just as often woolen mittens from Anthropologie or gloves so old the fingertips are fraying away. I'm not the runner who's in fashion or whose clothes even remotely match. I sweat a lot, and my skin gets unattractively red, and I'm not in neon colored trendy sneakers, but utilitarian black men's shoes. They're an update of an update of an update of a running shoe I was specifically measured for at a super runner shop on 24th Street and 3rd Avenue in New York City in 1997. I had to wear the same brand and makeup sneakers more or less for twenty three years. That's how long I've been a runner. And then of course, you go on from there. And how that running is like helping you cope. You're like, now I've lost track of what weeks? What week? Yeah. You're like, I'm not breaking any speed records. I'm barely audio books. And you know, you said now every time I step outside and let me be clear, my running path keeps a safe distance from people. It isn't just my workout for the day. It's a valuable life saving routine. It's a meditation. It's an escape.

[24:33]Sara Shepard: Are you- It's like my only time out.

[24:35]Zibby Owens: Yeah. Are you still running? Like, that end up getting you through? And is that still how you cope?

[24:41]Sara Shepard: Yeah. I mean, it's not, I don't panic anymore. I mean, it used to be every run I would go on, I would just panic. I don't know if I was even really able Whatever audio book I was listening to in those first few months, I don't think I remembered, like absorbed the plot at all. I might've even switched to podcasts. Really But even then, I don't know. I don't remember. So now I'm not as panicked, but yeah, I still run. I mean, it still is very much my, you know, sometimes I run and figure out plot stuff and then I will write it in my, I wish I had my phone up here. I should post a picture of it on Instagram where like my notes, I will write notes sometimes about something I'm working on. And I look back at them later, much later, and I will still make sense of them, but I show them to anybody else. And they're just like, what? Things are spelled wrong. You know, like, it's just, I'm really sweaty and trying to type Yeah. Sometimes I will just

[25:40]Zibby Owens: Oh, go ahead. You need to voice dictate, you know? You know, I was just thinking that, like, why I don't do that? I have headphones on. No, I probably still could experiment

[25:49]Sara Shepard: next time. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like neighbors. I always run the same roads and I feel like neighbors, I'm already the person who, wherever I go, it's usually a school event People, and they have not met me before. They're like, Oh, you're the one that runs. I'm like, Yeah, that's So me also screaming into my phone about- Okay, fine. Yeah. Okay. So murder should happen chapter 15

[26:13]Zibby Owens: see, yeah. Mean- I take it back. I take it back. Well, I don't know. I mean, I take it back.

[26:18]Sara Shepard: No, forget it. Forget I said a word. Don't do that. Definitely don't do that. But it was a great, it was great to write that essay. That's probably the only piece of writing I did for a while. And it was very therapeutic to write that because it was sort of like, Oh my God, what is happening? And it was, yeah. I mean, years ago, I don't do it so much anymore, but writing for me was just a way to get my feelings out and sort of to understand what I was feeling and what I, because often I didn't even know why I was angry or why I was upset or whatever. And if I wrote it down, I could kind of work it out. And that's what that essay very much felt like. Definitely a lot cheaper and less time actually

[27:03]Zibby Owens: finding and going to a therapist. So there you go. Yeah. And it often works

[27:07]Sara Shepard: for me. It works, but I like writing anyway. So, I mean, I guess if you don't like writing, maybe it's not as useful.

[27:16]Zibby Owens: So what do you think it is about thrillers and having something sort of the worst thing you can imagine? Like the idea that you were sitting there thinking like, what's the worst thing that I can do? Like, and that, oh, I've actually gone too far this time. Do know? Right. Right. So what do you think it is? What appeals to you about that? Why do you want to explore it? Is it like from a place of just anxiety about life and like you feel like you can sort of handle it through imagining the worst and kind of living that out and then realizing, actually, we're all still here and it's okay? Or do you think it's like, is there some secrets that you've had to harbor your whole life that are sort of corrosive and are eating away at you or and so you're I don't know. I'm just like hypothesis. No, I like these suggestions.

[27:59]Sara Shepard: I think the first thing you said is pretty spot on. I mean, I think that's why people like true crime as well. And hearing about sort of the worst possible things, you know, these grisly murders or whatever, you can kind of live vicariously and almost feel like, well, if it happened to me, I'm ready, you know, for like, ready to get dismembered in a shed or whatever. But yeah, I mean, especially some of these ones about parenting and terrible things happening while also trying to parent or just, or in your community or whatever. Yeah, I mean, they are sort of trying to live through the worst possible thing. And then the thing about secrets, I mean, of the one, something I remember my mom saying to me when I was like, maybe 10 or something was, you know, there's a lot I can forgive. It's very traumatic. There's a lot I can forgive, but I just cannot forgive keeping secrets. And it just, it was like, And you know, I don't think she had like major secrets in her life. But I think she's raising two girls. And we all know preteen teenage girls keep a lot to themselves and have a whole private internal life that you don't know about. And I did. I'm sure everybody did. And I think she was just trying to preempt that of like, I'm going to be proactive about this. And kind of like, if I'm going put it in your brain that you should tell me things. But from there, I just thought secrets were so interesting. And I tried to figure out what sorts of secrets other people were keeping. And yeah, it's always been intriguing because everybody has a secret. I mean, whether it's a big one or a small one or something in between, I mean, we're all have this sort of private life that we don't show other people. And it has definitely been a theme that has run through every book I've written. But I think most books have a little bit of a secret to them that a character feels and doesn't reveal. Then sometimes it comes out in not a great way or sometimes it doesn't. So, yeah. You know, thrillers, the other thing that's fun about writing a thriller is that it's sort of a puzzle. You know? And I've written not very many, maybe only one novel that is not a thriller. Although I was a ghost writer for a long time, I sort of ghost wrote other things that were not a thriller. But it's really fun to figure out the steps and the misleads and kind of when you plot those twists and when you reveal certain things. And I really like that part of writing, kind of putting that puzzle together. And especially when it all falls into place, when it doesn't fall into place and I've struggled with drafts. I'm writing another book now that I think things have fallen into place. But for a long time I was really struggling with like, oh my God, I don't think the thing that I plotted is going to work. It just isn't very interesting. And then, you know, I kind of like poked at it for a long time and eventually it did fall into place, but it's so satisfying then because you're just like, Oh, okay. This is something that I think people aren't going to see coming. And yeah, it's just, I don't know. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. What's your new book about? So my new book is is yet again about mothers, but it's about sort of an intentional community where these moms are sort of living in the desert and sort of raising their children altogether. And it is this beautiful situation, but this one woman who kind of comes into the community, she's got some baggage, she's got a big secret. And she gets there and sort of has this huge surprise of somebody in her life that she doesn't want to be there is there. And then it's kind of like, who planned? Like, how did this happen? It's the worst possible thing.

[32:11]Zibby Owens: It's the worst possible thing. So When I start thinking about all the because that's my mind goes there immediately, right? Like, we're sitting by the pool and like, we're all fine. But I'm like, but what if? What if the dog walks right there? Would I jump and save the dog? I don't. I go through this. I waste so much time imagining the door. I don't know why. Anyway, from now on, maybe I'm just gonna send you my

[32:33]Sara Shepard: Send me all your worst case scenarios. Yeah. You could just make a a whole book around them. Why not? Now they're just being wasted. You know? Right. Right. I think we all do. Yeah. I've always like, if I can't find my phone, I'm always like, it's gone. It's just, I mean, even the most minor thing is I'm like, it's gone. I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. Like, meanwhile, it's so easy to like update a phone these days, but even my wallet, like everything I can't find, it's gone forever. How is this going to inconvenience me? But then, yeah, it goes up to

[32:59]Zibby Owens: the worst possible thing. That was my car keys all the time. Like, I'm not going to be able to find it. We're going be stuck.

[33:05]Sara Shepard: We're going to be stuck.

[33:07]Zibby Owens: All that. It's just so ridiculous.

[33:10]Sara Shepard: I can't find my car in a parking lot. Well, it's I'm never gonna find it. It's Yeah,

[33:15]Zibby Owens: someone is falling. Never find my car in a parking lot. I've started now like I always have to take a picture of where I parked. I'm like, what's gonna happen? I'm in my 40s. By the time I get to my 70s, I won't be able to find the bathroom. I don't know. That's really smart, though. If I'm in a really big parking lot, I

[33:31]Sara Shepard: will text myself the parking area. But taking a picture is smart too. I even lose my car in like a Target parking lot. It's just where, yeah. But maybe even yeah.

[33:46]Zibby Owens: Taking a picture of the cars that are next to it. Yeah. I did at one point consult someone because I thought I was like losing my mind and I had no memory, but it turns out that if you are like distracted thinking about other things, you just don't actually imprint those memories to begin with. So it's not like, yeah, it's like, didn't even happen. I can believe that. Yeah. Cause I come out of target with my kids and I'm like,

[34:06]Sara Shepard: where? And they're like, you always forget. I'm sorry.

[34:11]Zibby Owens: Anyway, now of course, I've like gone over our little time here. I knew this was going to happen. Sarah, thank you so much for everybody again, safe in My Arms by Sarah Shepard. And then if you happen to want my anthology, her essay is in this as well. Moms don't have time to. Oh, and many other good essays. Great. And among other ones. But anyway, safe in my arms, Sarah Shepherd. Thank you. You. All right. Good night, Thank you. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.