Cynthia C. Muchnick and Justin Muchnick, THE PARENT COMPASS: Navigating Your Teen's Wellness and Academic Journey in Today's Competitive World & THE BOARDING SCHOOL SURVIVAL GUIDE
[0:01]Hi, this is Vivi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Momstone Have Time to Read Books.
[0:06]I'm also the host of Momstone Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology,
[0:12]which you should run out and buy, called Momstone Have Time to Accarantine Anthology.
[0:16]I'll proceed to that book, go to COVID-19 Vaccine Research.
[0:20]And I'm the editor-in-chief of Momstone Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium,
[0:24]and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there.
[0:29]And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram, at Zivi Owens,
[0:32]and my website is Zivi Owens.com.
[0:34]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:38]I had a great time interviewing both Cindy and Justin Muchnik. Cindy is Justin's mom.
[0:44]Cindy is the author of The Parent Compass, Navigating Your Teens Journey in Today's Competitive World.
[0:51]And Justin, her son is the author of the boarding school survival guide.
[0:56]Cynthia Klumak Muchnik, who goes by Cindy, is a graduate of Stanford University,
[1:00]and has been working in education for the past 25-plus years, as a former assistant director
[1:05]of college admissions, high school teacher, educational consultant, and author of five
[1:09]educational-related books, and four wedding marriage proposal books.
[1:13]Her first children's alphabet book comes out in spring 2023.
[1:17]She speaks professionally to parents, students, teachers, and businesses on topics like
[1:20]study skills, the adolescent journey, college admission, and now the parent
[1:24]compass movement. Justin is a boarding school graduate of Phillips Academy and over.
[1:30]In college at Stanford, he majored in classics and American studies with a minor in art history.
[1:35]He is the author of three books and has published many scholarly articles.
[1:39]He is now an eighth and tenth grade English teacher in Boston,
[1:42]and is pursuing his master's in education at the University of Pennsylvania.
[1:45]Welcome, Cynthia and Justin. Thank you so much for coming on moms.
[1:49]Don't have time to read books to discuss.
[1:52]Well, so many things. Cynthia is eight million books that she's written,
[1:55]especially the parent compass, navigating your team's wellness and academic journey
[1:59]in today's competitive world, and then Justin's own book, which I bought randomly
[2:04]when my son was going to boarding school, which he wrote, and that's just so crazy.
[2:08]So you guys tell listeners about all of the great work that you do.
[2:13]Justin, why don't you start and tell us about the boarding school survival book that you wrote,
[2:18]and how you even became a writer? How old are you even? What, like, 20? What are you?
[2:22]I'm 23. I just graduated from college in 2020, and I've been teaching English,
[2:30]actually, since I graduated at a private high school in Boston.
[2:33]I think I got the writing gene from my mom, and she really encouraged me from a young age
[2:40]to to kind of find my passion, and one of my passions happens to be writing and
[2:45]surprise, surprise, I'm an English teacher. But this, the boarding school survival guide,
[2:49]the book that I wrote when I was in high school was more my brainchild than my moms in the sense
[2:54]that I was a boarding school student. I went to Andover, boarding school Massachusetts,
[2:59]and one thing that was difficult for me when I was applying to all of these boarding schools
[3:03]as a kid from California who really didn't know what boarding school was beyond, you know,
[3:08]Hogwarts and Harry Potter, was that it was hard to find good reliable information from kids
[3:13]on on their boarding school experiences. And I as a as a boarding school student kind of wanted
[3:19]to step into fill that void and to make it easier for for future generations of boarding school
[3:25]applicants and students, but but really applicants to get a sense of what life was like at boarding
[3:30]school. And so I enlisted the help of of a lot of different current and former boarding school
[3:36]students. I sent out emails to, you know, heads of English departments, different, you know,
[3:42]writing clubs on on boarding school campuses. And I got, you know, 26 or 27 other boarding school
[3:48]students to contribute chapters to this book. The boarding school survival guide, which I hoped,
[3:53]you know, provided kind of a robust and and somewhat accurate picture of what boarding school life
[3:58]was from the perspective of students. And I'm glad and honored that it that it's in some small
[4:04]way helped you and your family on your own boarding school journey. And that's that's music to
[4:10]my ears and exactly what I was hoping that this book would have done. So it's it's it's really
[4:13]great to hear that that that it was perfect. I was like searching for books because I search for
[4:20]books to help me with everything and help assume that they will help everybody else even though
[4:24]I end up reading them all. So yes, it was also a good survival guide to read as a parent. So
[4:29]yeah, I'm just I was like so tickled. I'm glad we even put that together. So tickled. Oh my gosh,
[4:33]I'm I'm now talking like Chelsea who works in me. It's so funny. That's what she always says.
[4:39]So Cynthia, first of all, you must be so proud. How cool is that to have like a published author
[4:42]son already before he even got to college? I mean, that's amazing. Wow. It was really cool. I mean,
[4:48]it truly, you know, saying this out loud, even though professionally my career I've been a writer
[4:52]adjusting is a much better writer than his mother. The edits almost every word that I still write
[4:59]as an adult. I enlist his support and it's wonderful when the roles can shift and your kids like
[5:05]are better than you at things. And you can lean and rely on them and feel like they're taking
[5:09]care of you. So I feel very lucky. And yes, I'm I am a very proud mom, but you know, he's his own
[5:15]thing. Justin kind of went after boarding school. It was something we'd never experienced as a
[5:21]family. And I was heartbroken honestly at the time when he brought the idea to us. And I think he
[5:26]can look back and say it was a great choice that he made for himself. So it's great. It's so funny.
[5:32]Someone posted on Facebook, the essay I wrote when my son was going to boarding school when I was
[5:37]like heartbroken and sobbing. I'll send it to you after. But I'm somewhere on my website. But it's
[5:42]like so good for this time. I looked back at it and I was like a mess. Like I remember when that
[5:47]happened, I was sitting somewhere. I feel like we were in like services and somewhere with my husband.
[5:53]And I was just like sobbing. And he's like, he's still with us. Like we haven't lost him. And I'm like,
[5:59]it was not the same anyway. So I mean, you know, it's super soul systems in some way. We definitely,
[6:05]I had that same crying phone call to my own mother. And she said, you know, your kid is asking you
[6:10]for a kind of educational experience that, you know, he wants you to be able to provide. And
[6:16]how can you say no to that when you wanted to go for, you know, his own reasons of,
[6:21]you know, what were your reasons? It's cool to be smart. And my teachers that, you know, teach you
[6:25]around a circular table and have small conversations. And so, you know, it was, it was hard as a
[6:30]parent as you're seeing. But at the same time, how could we, you know, turn it down when he just
[6:36]wanted it for all the right reasons? So it's really impacted his journey. Now he's a teacher. So here we go.
[6:41]I guess. I know. I felt like before, I mean, this is so,
[6:45]well, maybe I shouldn't even say this. But before I had a child doing to boarding school,
[6:48]I thought that parents who sent their kids to boarding schools, like I'm like, I could never do
[6:52]that because I love my kids so much. And do they not love their kids? How can they not want
[6:56]their kids at home? And like, you know, as one of these, I shouldn't even say that I thought that.
[7:00]I mean, I'm sure it, but anyway, it's obviously completely not true. And I feel like it takes so much
[7:06]to send them away because that's not what you want. Or at least it wasn't what I wanted. I wanted
[7:10]him home with me. But that's what he wanted. He knew it would be right for him. And it was. And it's
[7:15]been amazing. But, you know, it's a bummer for the parents. So I know. And I have three more kids
[7:21]just like using me. And none of them chose that path. So they lost their brother to some degree
[7:27]in some informative, you know, important years. But Justin is a great communicator. He stayed
[7:32]in close touch. He allowed us to come to campus and visit from time to time. And we, you know,
[7:37]he was home for all the breaks. So, you know, we forged in some ways, I remember hearing this
[7:41]from a mom ahead of me in the journey saying, we forged kind of a deeper relationship than maybe
[7:46]we would have had he stayed home. And I wouldn't wish him away. But I, I, you know, know how much
[7:50]that time really meant to him and really watched him grow into a young man. And for those listening
[7:56]who couldn't see at the very beginning, some deal is, you know, smoothing out Justin's hair as if
[8:01]he's not 23 years old. So, yeah, I still have a story. Oh my gosh. So wait, go back to you for a
[8:09]second, Cynthia. So how did you get started on all of the writing and all of the advice and like
[8:15]your whole like, you know, tell me the whole, tell me the story. So just in a nutshell, Zibi, my writing
[8:22]started 100 years ago in 1996 when my then high school boyfriend proposed to me during a game of
[8:30]Scrabble at the road dance. My college boyfriend, my college, not my high school boyfriend. I was like,
[8:35]oh, impressive. I'm going to say was there another proposal that I didn't know about.
[8:39]Anyway, Adam professed to me on a park bench at the road dance sculpture garden in Paris while
[8:46]playing Scrabble. It was a very unique marriage proposal. And he's scattered. The words will you
[8:50]marry me. When I started dating him, I had to become very Scrabble, you know, sad, loved and
[8:57]Scrabble, by the way. We play hundreds of games. I mean, during COVID, like we have multiple boards
[9:04]going on, we play and for some, we play as two sums. It's all my kids know every two letter word,
[9:09]every keyword with no eye. Like we're not very social players anymore because we know all these
[9:13]tricks. But in any event after the marriage proposal, I started telling Adam's people,
[9:18]someone should write a book of these proposal stories. And I said it so many times that he said,
[9:22]why don't you do that? And so I bought a book on how to write a book about the writer's market.
[9:27]And I bought, I don't know how to market your books back in 1996. And I sent off this proposal
[9:33]to back in the day with a self-addressed stamped envelope and, you know, to 30 publishers. And
[9:38]six months later, someone called me from McMillan, which was a division of Simon & Schuster and said,
[9:43]hey, is your proposal book finished? And I almost like my jaw hit the ground. I just went, what,
[9:48]you know, and I was at the time in graduate school and writing an honors thesis. And, you know,
[9:53]suddenly I was calling all my friends and collecting everyone's proposal stories. And so that
[9:58]I became the country's or...
[10:00]most engagement expert at that time and did, you know,
[10:03]back then the talk show circuit and the radio show circuit,
[10:05]it was hilarious.
[10:07]And then I wrote a couple wedding books.
[10:09]And but my background was really college admissions.
[10:11]So one of the books I wrote was I college essay book
[10:14]back in 1997.
[10:16]And then that turned into a private college counseling practice.
[10:20]So while the kids were little and for about 15 years,
[10:23]I ran a company out of my home,
[10:25]helping kids supply to college.
[10:26]And so out of that love came some study skills books,
[10:30]on study skills and time management,
[10:32]and a getting ready for college book,
[10:33]and another college essay book.
[10:35]And then I just hit a wall and was like 10 books,
[10:38]and four kids, and I am just, I have nothing else today.
[10:42]And then in March 2019,
[10:45]the college admissions scandal broke.
[10:47]And I called a friend, a colleague, Jim Curtis,
[10:50]who is now my co-author of the parent compass.
[10:53]And we both just felt like we got punched in the stomach.
[10:57]We couldn't believe how extreme this news was.
[11:00]And the two of us just felt like we needed
[11:03]to send a clear message to parents on how to stay
[11:07]on the right side of things,
[11:09]A, without breaking the law,
[11:10]the B, but while keeping their kids mental health intact.
[11:14]And we were seeing students come into our office
[11:16]that couldn't self advocate, that were listless,
[11:19]that were unhappy, that were,
[11:21]they felt pushed, they felt exhausted.
[11:23]And we just wanted to try to teach their parents
[11:27]from what we learned from our own mistakes,
[11:29]but also from our, our own mistakes as moms,
[11:31]but our own mistakes and things we deserved
[11:33]in our offices through the years.
[11:35]And so the parent compass was born,
[11:37]then really kind of as a result of the scandal,
[11:40]but turned into just,
[11:42]we really want to write a parent etiquette book.
[11:44]And we have had, even though it came out,
[11:46]right in the middle of COVID, right when your book came out,
[11:49]we have just felt this surge of how important the message is
[11:53]to get out to really check yourself as a parent
[11:56]and pay attention to the signs of understanding
[11:59]that this is our own kid's journey
[12:01]and how do we teach them to speak for themselves
[12:03]and how do we teach them to be young adults
[12:06]because if we coddle and push and manage
[12:09]and fix everything,
[12:11]then they don't learn these skills that they need
[12:14]and they're unhappy and miserable and little robots.
[12:17]And so then when COVID hit,
[12:19]the book kind of took on a different kind of relevance
[12:21]with so many kids at home.
[12:23]And so it still made sense to us was about to go to press,
[12:26]COVID hit, we panicked, we reread the book,
[12:28]we made a few minor changes,
[12:29]but we found that it's just the message has resonated.
[12:32]So we're really excited and this is a full partnership book.
[12:36]So if Jen could be sitting right in between us,
[12:37]she would be here too.
[12:39]So that's kind of a bit of the journey,
[12:41]but anyway, it's been a lot of fun
[12:43]and we've, you know, we've enjoyed it.
[12:44]Wow, that's amazing.
[12:45]Well, think about all the people
[12:46]you've helped along the way with all sorts of things,
[12:49]you know, 10, I don't think you'll ever be done, right?
[12:52]Because there's always more to write about,
[12:55]you know, you can write about being a grandmother eventually
[12:58]and you can write about, I mean,
[12:59]I'm writing for a clock for now.
[13:01]I'm writing about time and I have some new ideas for you
[13:04]for now.
[13:04]I do randomly have my first children's book
[13:07]coming out in 2024.
[13:08]I know you have one too.
[13:10]So congratulations.
[13:11]We tell you about yours.
[13:12]It's very, it's kind of silly.
[13:14]It's an alphabet book.
[13:15]So, you know, I'll have something to reach my grandchildren.
[13:18]No rest, Justin, on that.
[13:19]I'm not rushing.
[13:20]I'm not rushing.
[13:21]Honestly, it's embarrassing.
[13:22]It was a book that Jeth had an idea about
[13:25]when Justin was little because all embarrassing
[13:27]by saying he was very obsessed with construction sites
[13:29]and construction trucks as a small child.
[13:31]We would go watch construction trucks for fun,
[13:34]building things and the garbage truck.
[13:36]And he had a construction site, birthday party
[13:39]where like, you know, we had a little,
[13:40]the kids like brought sponges
[13:42]and we washed the little bobcat that we run.
[13:45]So it's a construction site alphabet book,
[13:48]which is very different than anything I've done,
[13:50]but I just, it's was a way for me to cross over
[13:53]and to trying out this.
[13:54]And it's very weird to write a book so short
[13:56]after writing a book that takes a lot longer.
[13:59]But anyway, so amazing.
[14:01]So maybe we'll come back and talk about that in 2024.
[14:04]Yeah, look at that.
[14:05]You're already queuing it up.
[14:06]Amazing.
[14:07]I love it.
[14:08]I hope I'm still doing this.
[14:09]When is, what are we in now, 2021?
[14:11]I know it's so funny.
[14:12]I keep like making all these, you know,
[14:14]great, your next book.
[14:15]And I'm like, I guess I'm just gonna keep at it
[14:17]for as long as, I don't know.
[14:19]I guess I'll be like, your kids are gonna be pushing you
[14:23]in the wheelchair as you read the books and you know,
[14:25]I guess not rushed to that,
[14:27]but no, you've done a great job.
[14:29]No, no, no, no.
[14:29]No, we're talking about your book.
[14:31]No, not about, but thank you.
[14:33]Well, there were some great things in here.
[14:35]And by the way, I did read this while I was with my son,
[14:38]the boarding school son.
[14:39]And I was like, oh, okay.
[14:40]So let me ask you some of these questions, you know.
[14:43]And so I started asking from the quiz and everything.
[14:45]Like, you know, oh, there was one that,
[14:48]let me find the one that we had the best conversation about.
[14:50]I mean, all these are great like what activities,
[14:52]what do you wish your parents knew about you
[14:54]and your school, but there were some other ones
[14:57]at the beginning, wait, hold on, let me find a few.
[15:00]Yeah, what's your biggest dream in life?
[15:02]What if you always wanted to try,
[15:04]if you could start your own nonprofit,
[15:06]what would it be?
[15:07]He actually had an answer for that.
[15:08]So that was a good one.
[15:09]What would the title of your autobiography be?
[15:12]What's your tennis ball?
[15:13]What's the thing that you chase?
[15:14]Is intently as a dog chases a tennis ball?
[15:16]What are you trying to get better at?
[15:17]I mean, I know like it's just such a good idea.
[15:21]I mean, if I were smart, what I would have done
[15:23]is like do a little video of him answering all your questions.
[15:26]Well, you still can't.
[15:27]I see I am smart.
[15:28]There you go.
[15:29]No, but it would be neat for him to have that
[15:32]to look back on later as well.
[15:33]Like these are just, it's a good stop gap.
[15:36]And I feel like there's kind of avoid,
[15:38]and I haven't really researched too heavily,
[15:40]but like books about dealing with teens
[15:43]do not like pop up regularly.
[15:44]People aren't pitching those books.
[15:46]Like, and I haven't done a similar boarding school
[15:48]deep dive on the way I did to find Justin's book.
[15:51]Not even so deep.
[15:52]That's the one that came up.
[15:53]But it's really, really important.
[15:54]I mean, it's so important.
[15:56]And they're like eight million advice books
[15:58]on how to get through having a baby.
[16:00]And yeah, that's really hard.
[16:02]But like, this is also really hard.
[16:04]This is like emotional, you know,
[16:08]I don't even have finals or something, right?
[16:10]I think for parents to go through adolescents,
[16:13]shoulder to shoulder with their teens
[16:15]is something you don't prepare for.
[16:17]You just figure, oh, I've got through those hard early years.
[16:21]I've kept them alive.
[16:22]You know, they haven't choked on a Lego
[16:23]and they haven't, you know, broken too many bones.
[16:26]And now we're at this time period where, you know,
[16:29]lots of movies have been made about, you know,
[16:30]parenting adolescents.
[16:31]And Jen and I just felt like there wasn't this guide book
[16:36]that kind of could hold your hand as a parent
[16:38]and say, here's some good do's and don'ts,
[16:40]but also would force you really
[16:41]as a parent to look hard back at your own history
[16:44]of the way you were raised, the way you were like
[16:47]as a teenager, you know, your academic path
[16:50]and how it differs from each of your children's journeys
[16:53]and their personalities and their birth order
[16:55]and their proposed academic path.
[16:57]And I think the key message or one of the key takeaways
[17:00]from the book is to really appreciate
[17:02]that's just the child you have in front of you
[17:03]to not try to inauthentically create someone different
[17:07]than who they are and what they like.
[17:09]And Justin and I have some amazing interest we share
[17:12]and we have some interest that are so different.
[17:14]And I've learned to appreciate the things
[17:17]that he's interested in because he's my son
[17:18]and it excites them.
[17:19]I mean, I knew nothing about, you know,
[17:21]classical literature or about, you know, Latin or Greek
[17:25]or things that just were different and new to me
[17:28]and I learned a lot from him and appreciated his interest.
[17:30]And I think as a parent, we have a duty to let them be
[17:34]the teenagers, let them make the choices
[17:37]and not try to force a path that might not fit for them.
[17:40]So it's taken a long time for me to be able
[17:42]to say those words, you know, people kept saying,
[17:43]when are you gonna write the parenting book?
[17:45]And I said, I'm only as knowledgeable as my oldest child
[17:48]and I'm no real expert.
[17:50]But having worked with all these families for years
[17:52]and sort of seeing some parents who seem to do it right
[17:55]or better and see some parents who are trying so hard
[17:59]that it's smothering their kids
[18:00]and might be managing their kids
[18:03]and informing that relationship that, you know,
[18:06]I want my kids to like me when this is all over.
[18:08]Justin got came home for the summer.
[18:10]He seems to enjoy hanging out with us.
[18:11]I think so.
[18:12]I'm so trying to get you to learn Latin, you know.
[18:16]We want to raise people that still think, you know,
[18:18]we did our best and we tried hard
[18:21]and I think when your kids see you reading a book
[18:23]about parenting better, they say, wow, you know,
[18:26]you really want, you know, we can admit that we're not perfect
[18:29]and that we want to try harder and do better.
[18:32]And we can do that every day of the week.
[18:34]We can read the book in a weekend
[18:35]and just start trying some of these things
[18:38]that let me help.
[18:39]So, and Justin, did you vet all these chapters?
[18:42]Like, did you read it and make sure that it was all good?
[18:45]And I let my mom and Jen, her co-author do most
[18:50]of the heavy lifting there.
[18:51]I came in, I guess, for some of the very minute
[18:55]for reading and all of that, which my mom sometimes
[18:57]likes to use me for, but this was their book
[19:00]and I let them tell kind of their story
[19:02]and get on their soapbox for it.
[19:04]Yeah, he let me write a little bit.
[19:05]I had to get permission because there are a couple stories
[19:07]about my kids and nowadays like we, you know,
[19:10]I posted much more about my kids, you know, 15 years ago
[19:14]when there were last restrictions and last fear
[19:17]and we just Facebook was a new thing
[19:19]and now I'm, you know, careful about their privacy
[19:22]and about, you know, even the essay that I wrote
[19:24]for your platforms to be, you know, I asked my kids,
[19:26]are you okay with this?
[19:27]Can you read it first?
[19:28]And I really want to send it if you'll let me
[19:30]and I, you know, so my kids have been good about letting me
[19:32]share now, get some snippets.
[19:34]And so there are a few stories about, you know,
[19:36]Justin as a kid and he was kind enough to let me include those.
[19:39]So thank you, Justin.
[19:40]Absolutely.
[19:42]Yeah, I definitely try to vet the stories,
[19:44]at least with the older kids, see, I mean,
[19:45]the younger kids might change their mind.
[19:47]What is your, what is the spread,
[19:48]how old are all your kids now?
[19:51]23, so Justin's almost right, New York, 23, 23.
[19:55]I don't even want to tell you how old it was when I got married.
[19:58]So that's scary for me that I'm a 23 year old.
[20:00]So the next to me and then I have one that's turning 21. So he's a sophomore in college and then I have a 16 year old and then my daughter on Monday is turning 15.
[20:09]So I'm feeling high school with two and three boys and then the girls. So you see how that kind of went we kept going and going and yeah, it could have been 100 boys than the girl. I think they would have kept going until they got that one girl.
[20:23]I don't think so.
[20:25]But yeah, it's been a good it's been a good journey. You know, it's just a lot for us a lot as you know and any numbers lot really it's you know it's 24 seven and even when they're grown and out of the house your heart still feels connected and why you, you know, be there for the times they need to share with you and support you and.
[20:45]And ask you for advice and then you want them to make their own mistakes too and and try not to just catch them every time and feel how they see how they get through that because.
[20:55]I don't know just how does it feel to be a young adult now on your sort of on your own out in the world it's it's it's good I've been enjoying kind of charting my own path but also knowing that you know I've got a place to come back to if that's that's where I find myself.
[21:11]Oh, that's really sweet it's so funny Cynthia your kids we have like the same spread but they're all just like a little bit older.
[21:18]Yep, though I'm going to have to get your advice is mine like I'm saying for friends you don't understand why I've been like I get it I get it I get it.
[21:28]And then you know when you saw that boarding school book and you invited us on the show I will say just the first home call was Justin and Boston and I said look, I love this lady I love what she's doing I love how she's helping.
[21:39]Authors and and I just love how real and down to earth you are zippy and just your good human being and you just I like go on to that and I like making new friends and meeting new interesting people so.
[21:50]Justin did this for me for his mom as well as you know, but I'm so glad I did and I'm so glad that our son was really the catalyst to bring you and I together.
[22:00]So it's a lot of fun so do you not you do you live in the same place norm your so your in Boston so you're not even.
[22:07]Yeah, so I'm I'm in Boston I've been here visiting when I guess I still call home for part of the summer because I guess one of the perks of being a teacher is that I've got the summer more or less off.
[22:18]I've been a little bit more mobile now that I've been in the summer, but I know I spend the school year most of my time in Boston I'm kind of in that you know, liminal state between childhood and adulthood where like I still have my.
[22:30]You know, better room at my parents house that I go to and and feel comfortable going to and yet I also am sort of.
[22:36]Living my own life it's a little bit of it, you should write a book called can I still call at home that's so interesting you said that that's great right I mean that's such a perfect there's so many people in your position and obviously every year.
[22:47]more and more is like it's so rotating cross section, but.
[22:51]And I'm in a fun Justin's couch in November when I come visit you, you know hopefully for that that author retreat.
[22:58]I think I think I will give her the bed and yes, you will that is the right thing to do there you go.
[23:05]Thank you and he'll change the sheets maybe who never.
[23:09]We'll see we'll see what do you like to do when you're not writing and mothering now I have some you know good girlfriends that I've collected through the years so I love spending time with them when I can and it's been more through zoom but starting to be in person again which has been nice.
[23:27]and I, you know, I enjoy reading a lot so I've been following I've been doing what I'm calling my homework I'm reading lots of books on your list so that I can kind of say current which has been great.
[23:39]And you know I've got a great partner I I'm married a great guy who we enjoy you know we got some shows we binge and we walk the dog at night we're pretty boring actually we don't you know we don't have a lot of too many highs and I can't confirm they are pretty.
[23:56]But we were able to make one family vacation this summer which was you know like you needed a PhD to get all the testing and all the arrival and departure and navigate all of that but we we made some good family memories with all six of us which is really hard to get.
[24:09]Everyone on a similar schedule as they get older and their off of school schedules so we managed to squeeze a trip in which was really fun.
[24:18]And yeah and then just you know writing you know writing here in there writing essays writing some articles and and doing book book related things is really kind of my.
[24:27]It's been a great career because it's something I can do and be a mom and it's fun when my kids share in sharing it in some way in the love of it and you know I pretty much everyone's kind of readers summer more audiobook readers my husband's maybe the one that's not a reader he reads legal documents and that's like enough for him he doesn't.
[24:46]want to do it for recreation.
[24:48]I've actually heard that from some other lawyers they're like I read all day and I'm like but that's what that's a different kind of read but they're like no no I'm done.
[24:55]I've heard that quite a bit so what advice from both of you please would you have for aspiring authors.
[25:02]I guess I come more from the English teacher perspective here because I teach a few classes full of aspiring authors I guess and what what I like to tell them which is something that one of my favorite English teachers.
[25:15]I was actually high school told me is to write in the way that they wish they could speak rather than I think some of the English teachers will tell you.
[25:25]You're authorial voice right right the way that you speak right how you speak be authentic in that way.
[25:30]But for me I see writing as this opportunity to to do something that I wish I could do when I was talking you know that I wish I could speak as well as I wrote.
[25:41]writing is your opportunity to you know sometimes like if you're in a shower after argument or something like that and you're going through all man I wish I could have said that's why I would have laid it out so well writing is your opportunity to do that don't write how you speak right right in the way that you wish you could speak.
[25:56]just and that's a good one I mean I unfortunately I kind of do the opposite to try to learn from my son because I tend to just view it all out there and and that's my voice, but I wow let's see there you know learn something from from your kid and the English teacher.
[26:11]my I have two quick ones my first piece would just be through the years many people have asked me how do you write books how do you publish a book what did you know give me your advice and my first piece of advice is just right just just do it you have an idea for a book do it and a lot of times people are like oh yeah I should how do I start well you know.
[26:32]you write a few chapters and you write a proposal and you do a table of contents in a bio and you just put it together you just do it you start writing so one would be just do it.
[26:41]but the other would be which I actually learned early from Justin and then so three of my books I've co authored and I will say finding a partner is phenomenal when you you can feel kind of less lonely you can feel motivated by your partner you can feel.
[26:56]supported you can pick up where each other leaves off, you can split chapters, you can edit each other's work I mean there's really even if it's just the exercise of writing with someone not necessarily a book with someone.
[27:07]but maybe start with writing at co authoring an essay with someone and that's what Jen and I want to do our next essay for you is about being right you know writing with a partner.
[27:15]but really I love just the idea of having someone to do it with because it makes it less isolating and less lonely because it's kind of a lonely craft until you.
[27:25]put it out there and then for me the writing the writing was more the homework and the fun part was sharing it with people and talking to people about it.
[27:34]and for a lot of writers it's they just they want to kind of write and then move on to the next thing they write and it's more maybe introverted process so.
[27:42]my partner and I and our styles really complimented each other well and it was a great experience and just I couldn't have done it without her.
[27:50]well I think it's very complimentary advice because I totally understand what Justin saying.
[27:55]I feel like I can write better than I can speak like it's what I would want to say it just doesn't always come out that you know I get what you're saying I totally get it.
[28:04]but I also get Cynthia's advice which is like don't get in your own way and just sort of like sit down and start doing it and then to see what happens so yeah love it.
[28:12]well thanks to both of you this is so nice it's like meeting old friends or something so it's been great to me.
[28:21]you and I guess I'll see you in November, Cynthia and that'll be fun.
[28:24]I was going to remember I want to know is this your first mother son ever podcast interview like are we or have you.
[28:32]I think it must be.
[28:35]or you actually mother son you know the the the authors and their son that could be a good mom moms and sons don't have time to.
[28:43]there aren't that many moms and sons who have both written books.
[28:47]I've done interviews with my son like interviewing other people although he's more and more reluctant to do that but yeah I think you might be want to know.
[28:55]yeah they're amazing.
[28:57]it's exciting to be the first of anything but we just appreciate the time that you've given us to share a little bit about who we are and what we've been doing what we've been up to and we will continue to be.
[29:09]I mean Justin's a little bit easier and doesn't really go.
[29:11]I have a lot of bottle and all that now.
[29:13]Oh my gosh.
[29:14]That's so funny.
[29:16]I guess I'll let's back in there so anyway.
[29:19]Well thank you and the parent compass thank you for writing this and helping so many other parents like us already get through these years so that's really great.
[29:29]Thank you.
[29:30]Thank you.
[29:31]Thanks for having me.
[29:32]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books.
[29:36]Don't forget to follow me on instagram at zebioans and at moms don't have time to read books.
[29:41]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on zoom every other week.
[29:48]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound for the Sound Editing and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.