Dr. Samantha Boardman, EVERYDAY VITALITY: Turning Stress into Strength
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[0:38]Dr. Samantha Boardman is the author of Everyday Vitality, turning stress into strength.
[0:43]She received her BA from Harvard University, an MD from Cornell University Medical College,
[0:48]and completed a four-year residency program in psychiatry at Wild Cornell Medical College.
[0:53]After graduating from residency, she continued working at the hospital as the in-house psychiatrist
[0:57]for the Employment Assistance Program, and also opened a private practice in Manhattan.
[1:02]She later went back to school and got a master's degree and applied positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania.
[1:08]She has published papers and journals including Translational Neuroscience, Nature Reviews Neuroscience,
[1:13]the American Journal of Psychiatry, and the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry.
[1:16]She's also a frequent contributor to psychology today, the Wall Street Journal, and Thrive Global,
[1:21]and a guest on the Today Show in Good New York.
[1:24]Welcome, Samantha. Thank you so much for coming on momstone. Have time to read books.
[1:29]Thank you so much for having me. I'm just thrilled to be here. Thank you.
[1:32]Oh, well, I really enjoyed your book, and I think it is so useful.
[1:37]The combination of your own personal experience, the tips you give, I feel like you were speaking to me.
[1:43]You know, like a very busy mom, woman, you're speaking to everybody who needs a little bit help,
[1:50]just like making their lives a little bit better.
[1:52]I feel like it was just, it was great and it's actionable advice and all the rest.
[1:57]Anyway, why don't you tell listeners what your books about and what inspired you to write this?
[2:03]Well, just thank you again for having me on. I think you make everyone's life a little bit better with your podcast.
[2:08]So thank you. Well, you know, I was inspired to write the book. It's taken me a while to do it.
[2:13]The quarantine helped me finish it because it's sort of been in the works for about a four and a half years.
[2:18]But I really wanted to write about vitality. And so this all started a long time ago when I was fired by a patient.
[2:26]I had been seeing for a couple of weeks and I thought we were making great progress.
[2:30]We were talking about all of her problems and trying to kind of minimize and sort of dial down what was going wrong with her.
[2:36]And in her life, and one day she came into my office and said to me, you know what?
[2:40]I hate coming to see you. All we do is talk about the stuff that's going, you know, it's all going wrong.
[2:46]And we never talk about anything else. And that's it. I'm done. And I never saw her again. And you know, she'd been overwhelmed with her husband.
[2:55]She has three kids under the age of eight. There was a lot going on like many balls in the air. And I think many people can relate to that.
[3:01]And you know, she said, I dread coming here. Even sometimes I'm having a good day. And I'm like, oh, what can I complain about there?
[3:07]And it really made me rethink everything I thought I knew about medicine and psychiatry because, you know, in medical school, you're taught to, you know, you percuss lungs.
[3:17]You often hate abdomins. You're always like, you palpate pro states. Like you're looking like what could be going wrong here.
[3:22]And then in psychiatry residency, you're basically doing the same thing. You're looking at a set of symptoms thinking, okay, what's wrong now in this person's brain.
[3:30]And how can I, you know, what can I do to minimize their misery to treat their symptoms and kind of bring them back to baseline.
[3:37]And what I realized was I was just so focused on pathology and what was, you know, disease. And I wasn't really focusing at all on health and, you know, I think the practice of psychiatry actually really is the focus on disease.
[3:51]So, I thought I needed to expand my horizons. I ended up going back to school at the age of 40, getting a degree in positive psychology, studying most billions post traumatic growth optimism.
[4:02]The opposite of everything I had learned in medical school and then incorporating it into my practice. So I think of myself as a positive psychiatrist.
[4:09]So long way to answer that other book was born out of that.
[4:15]Well, I know I couldn't believe when you that you went back to school with kids and everything and you're already a doctor. It's like, that's just amazing. So even make that life choice.
[4:23]And it sort of details with all the suggestions you make for other people, right of how to live a happy life.
[4:29]And by doing that, you are somehow finding the skills to then you put those things in action for yourself, which is great.
[4:38]Well, it was definitely in body. Like I really felt like I had to kind of embody all of this. Otherwise I wouldn't, you know, I really do try to practice what I preach because sometimes I realize I can be a bit of a wealth and I can let things get in the way.
[4:49]And so I really tried to kind of bring that and even like my own vulnerability into the practice of it.
[4:54]Well, you talk in the beginning, you say there are three main well springs of everyday vitality, meaningfully connecting with others engaging and experiences that challenge you and contributing to something beyond yourself.
[5:06]Which is sort of like, like people talk about like, what's the secret of life? Like how do you become like, how do you achieve happiness? There's so many different theories and this makes so much sense to me.
[5:16]And then later you said almost half of the people surveyed said they frequently experienced daily stress and more than 40% said they feel as if they don't have enough time.
[5:25]Their lives are non-stop with the to-do list that seems bottomless. Often a lack of vitality only amplifies their stress.
[5:32]Patients often just give up and say, I guess that's life.
[5:35]And then you say ironically how people respond to daily stress is often the opposite of what would give them strength.
[5:41]Choices like canceling plans with friends, eating comfort food, staying up late watching television and skipping the gym to offer to offer temporary relief, but further deplete vitality.
[5:52]Okay, one more little thing. I believe in you said, I believe the vitality is cultivated and enhanced through productive and meaningful actions, having a good conversation, doing a favor for someone going for a walk, reading an interesting article and then calling a friend to discuss it.
[6:05]These common place experiences and micro moments are the building blacks of everyday resilience. They are other oriented. They are outward oriented. They are action oriented.
[6:14]They are not internal nor individual nor do they require sustained self immersion on the contrary. They require engagement and interaction. I love that. Like that is just so awesome.
[6:25]I was sort of like putting your lens on happiness and vitality onto what I do for instance.
[6:34]So I changed my entire life up. And now this is what I do. I try to explain to people, every day I have these amazing conversations. It's unbelievable.
[6:43]Everybody should have a podcast. It's just, I get so much out of it. And people say aren't you exhausted?
[6:49]Like doing four podcasts and I'm like, no, it's like this dose of energy I get from each one. So I felt like, and you even have a whole thing on communication and anyway, I'm rambling.
[7:00]But anyway, talk to me about all that.
[7:03]I love that. And I do think what you do every day is truly vitalizing. And I think it is in those connections. We haven't talked about mental health and health in general. It's like the eating and well in moving and sleeping well and all that.
[7:16]And those are all critically important, but also the life blood of well being is our connections with others. And it's sort of neglected.
[7:25]Even I know like I have many people who tell me and I do this too unless I'm deliberate about it. If I've got it to do list like the personal connections will probably be the thing that sort of drops to the bottom of it by the end of the day, I just don't really have the energy.
[7:37]And so really being deliberate about kind of expanding yourself in some way. And I think there's so much pressure.
[7:43]and therapy and in today's world to feel like, okay, I have to dig into myself. I have to self-emerress. I've been wallow in my emotions. I've got to pray love my way into well being. And maybe I need to go away for a month or I need to do something that's super like self absorbed.
[7:59]And actually that can steal vitality. You know, and I think when we when we're we become so self immersed and so self focused that we lose those connections. We prioritize oneself.
[8:10]And people always say like, Oh, you have to always put on your, you know, like jacket life preserver before you put on someone else is and yes, it, you know, 30,000 feet, but actually like you can do both.
[8:22]And I think we've got this like either or mindset and I kind of want to shift back to that because the most vital I think they we do the best like, you know, antidote for stress is actually doing something for someone else.
[8:33]It's really empowering. I love this study for it. It was for like a six and seven graders. They asked the seventh graders to give advice to six graders about how to like their best study habits.
[8:46]And then other sixth graders were given advice from teachers, other ones from parents. And you'd think obviously the teacher, the parents have better advice. I was like, I've got better, you know, great advice to my kid.
[8:57]The amazing thing was the kids, the seventh graders who are giving the advice to the younger kids their study habits improved as well as the sixth grader study habits improved.
[9:08]So sixth graders were actually more receptive to like a peer from the student telling them what to do, but also when you the active giving advice and sort of, you know, using your experience to help somebody else is so motivating and that's where motivation comes from is I think when we feel like we're effective in this world.
[9:25]And, you know, there's studies looking at that weight loss with saving money. And so I think when motivation is something that we often tap out of, but actually others are a wellspring of motivation too and we're doing something for someone else.
[9:38]So true. And you I feel like you give such specific suggestions that make it like, okay, well, this isn't so hard. I can do this. Like for instance with exercise how you say, you know, you say when you're exploring exercise options for yourself, like invite a friend who has had a recent loss to go for a walk or send a teenager off to college with the yoga matter offered to be a gym buddy to a friend going through it.
[10:00]divorce, watch a friend's baby, so she can do an online workout, right? It's like being,
[10:03]it's this whole theory of being of service to somebody else, right? And that it just like doubles
[10:08]down on your own, on, it's like that when the more self-less you are, it actually benefits you more
[10:16]completely like other help is self-help. You know, and I think self-help can become so narrow,
[10:21]and so I think actually other help, and I kind of think of this book in a way, is it
[10:24]other help book too, and it really, it helps, it helps you in every way. And I think, you know,
[10:30]when we're overwhelmed at the end of the day, it's like the last thing you feel like doing,
[10:33]and so sometimes the only way to get yourself to do that is I read about it like you can't be a
[10:38]flake. Like I go for a walk kind of every Friday with a friend of mine and Central Park, and we always
[10:43]do it, and I can't tell you every Friday morning, I'll be like, oh, I don't really want to do it. And if I call
[10:47]if you get up and will I, and I bail on her will, you know, will she be upset, and I'm sort of
[10:52]gilded into do it, and then I'm so happy I went. You know, you always, you never regret those actions
[10:57]that you take, and we have a great time, and we have fun in the park, and we walk around for an hour,
[11:01]and I look forward to it right afterwards, and then like Thursday night, I'm like, oh, how can I get out of
[11:06]this? What do you think that is? I do that all the time where I'm always like, I don't, like,
[11:11]I feel like I want to cancel every plan I make. I'm always like, oh, why are we doing this? Or why
[11:16]you know, why did I accept this? Or we don't have to stay long? Or you know, why don't you ever
[11:22]go to a party without saying like, we only, we don't have to stay that long. You know, I feel like
[11:26]all this anxiety about it. And then I always have the best time. It's like, I don't know totally.
[11:31]I totally agree with you. And it is like Groundhog Day, you're like, oh, you're like back to that
[11:35]place again. Like why are we doing this? And I do think though, maybe emerging, maybe it's too soon
[11:40]to say emerging from the pandemic, but at least, you know, as we kind of reenter our social
[11:45]lives, we have this opportunity to socialize better and be kind of maybe a little pickier about
[11:51]who we connect with and how we connect because research shows that like the two main like social
[11:56]connections that really boost us are having meaningful conversations. Then you need to kind of be like
[12:00]six, six people is the limit for that. So like dinner with like six friends, absolutely like a
[12:05]huge cocktail party, maybe not. You know, or any other, the second thing in addition to meaningful
[12:11]conversations is the experience like feeling like love and supported and understood in some way.
[12:16]So that's kind of this experience of felt love. Like just, you know, when you have a conversation
[12:19]with, you know, your spouse or your kids, it's just saying like, tell me more. I'd like to hear more
[12:24]about that and giving them your full attention and not having your phone with you or even doing
[12:29]things beyond their awareness. Like what you know, they've got to drive somewhere the next thing
[12:33]you feel the car up with gas. Like those little things that just kind of provide these little
[12:37]gestures of support. And you know, you don't need to be sending chocolates or flowers. Like
[12:42]there are these little things that they can our everyday lives that we're not really paying attention
[12:46]to and we're not deliberate about just because life gets in the way. But when we do pay attention,
[12:51]it's so easy and it feels really good. My husband Kyle, when I first like got together with him,
[12:56]every everyone we would meet or he would see or whatever, waitress or someone in the elevator,
[13:00]like just anyone, he'd be like, oh, you know, great shirt or whatever. I love this or I love
[13:05]and I'm like, why are you always talking to all these strangers? And he's like, what do you mean?
[13:08]He's like, I might have just, that might have made their day. That might have been the only time
[13:12]someone said something nice to them all day long. And I would, you know, why not? Because at first
[13:18]I was like, is he really this nice? Like, come on, people are nice like this in New York City. But
[13:22]but it was totally genuine. And now I find myself doing the same thing, like all the time, like,
[13:27]not in any sort of calculating way, but just noticing. First of all, it's just the noticing,
[13:32]the good things about other people. Like, I feel like before I was so in my own head,
[13:36]I wouldn't necessarily be like, oh, wow, amazing shoes. Or I wouldn't say amazing shoes. And now
[13:41]that's like the first thing out of my mouth. Anyway, I think it's all like this, you know, but when
[13:46]you're, when you're in such a down place, it's so hard to do any of that or to see any of that
[13:52]and to like sort of claw your way out. So I feel like once you, once you get the ball rolling,
[13:56]it's easier to keep it going, right? Obviously physics and all that.
[14:00]But it's amazing though, actually, how you talk about your husband doing that in the contagion
[14:05]effect. Like, he basically, you've caught that, you know, that, that, that noticing. And really,
[14:10]we are bandwidth of attention. Like, where I think our brains are just kind of primed to look
[14:14]for like bad stuff or to like focus on ourselves in place of turn inward and tunnel vision and
[14:18]be a little turtles. But, you know, when you are around somebody who's a little bit more
[14:22]expensive and looks around, it kind of forces you to. And then you're probably much more like that
[14:26]around your kids now and around other people. And there is, you know, there's a lot of research,
[14:30]maybe he's a friend, maybe he's a psychologist, I don't know, but there's so much research around
[14:34]like incidental interactions, like with those strangers. And one of the things about COVID too,
[14:39]I remember visiting so much was like, the guy walks his dog on the street. You know, I don't,
[14:42]I don't know his last name, you know, I wasn't doing Zoom cocktails with him, but like those
[14:46]those interactions that are really meaningful. And I think really important with people and
[14:50]even when you're picking up your coffee in the morning to like look up from your phone,
[14:53]how are you? Thank you. You know, and people who do that actually do go on to have a better day.
[14:57]So I think there are a lot of opportunities that we might miss if we're just sort of, you know,
[15:03]stuck in our own heads. So true. I had this one experience. I don't even know why I bring this up,
[15:08]but I went into the tasty delight on third Avenue. And the woman behind the counter was like being
[15:13]just so rude to everybody. Like, and my first instinct was like get annoyed, right? And like just
[15:19]sort of like put my hackles up in response to her sort of being rude. And as I watched her kind of
[15:25]like serve the people in front of me, I was like, I wonder what's going on with her? Like, maybe
[15:30]something's wrong. Maybe why would she be doing this? And so when it was my turn, I was like,
[15:35]I said something like, I'm sorry, it looks like you're having a really bad day or something like that
[15:39]or I'm sorry, you know, something like that. Anyway, she like burst into tears and she was like,
[15:43]yes, I'm having the worst day. And like, oh my gosh. And I was like, it's okay. I don't know. I just,
[15:49]but anyway, I'll just say you can, it's very easy to help people out with just a comment,
[15:55]just one thing, just to pay attention. And then it improves your vitality so much. So I don't know,
[16:01]I just am so, I'm so on board with your whole concept and spreading the joy that you can find,
[16:07]especially because you just so nailed it with the people, you know, being so tired and, you know,
[16:12]all of that and comfort eating. And yes, I mean, not to say I don't do that. I do all of that stuff.
[16:19]So we all, yes. So tell me a little about writing this book. And I know you said it was a long
[16:25]process and that story had happened before you. And you even had this meeting with like Angela Duckworth
[16:29]in the middle of it talking about her back and all of that. Oh my gosh. So tell me about turning
[16:34]this into a story and what that act, what that was like for you.
[16:39]It was torture, honestly. And now like I think back, I'm like, oh my gosh, how did I do that?
[16:43]It took me a really long time. And I was so broken down by it. And you know, there's that old saying,
[16:48]like everyone has a book in them. And that's for most of them. That's where it should stay. And I was like,
[16:53]okay, then I've really got to like, if I am going to do this, I have to do it well. And I want it
[16:58]to be fun. And I can be a little nerdy in my writing. So I was putting maybe too many studies at
[17:04]moments and being a little bit, I've written some textbook stuff. And realizing that maybe
[17:09]people didn't want to read that. And that friend of mine, Nelska Bell, I was working with her and
[17:12]she was editing things piece by piece of thing. Like, you know what, maybe when it put like a story
[17:16]in here. And so it was really fun. Actually, the collaboration being able to work with now.
[17:20]And she's funny. And it's so it actually ended up being a fun process. And when you do something
[17:25]with someone else and you get that immediate feedback as well. And you know, we were just talking about
[17:29]junk food too. I think that, you know, there are all these studies looking at like when you
[17:33]eat a piece of chocolate. Like if you are going to eat junk food or chocolate, like do it with
[17:37]someone else because it tastes better than you know. And I think that that is true. Like,
[17:41]like one versus distracted. Like food just tastes good. So I think whatever you do that's a shared
[17:46]experience is really valuable. And every time we are distracted or stuck in our own heads, we're
[17:52]sort of actively unsharing a potentially uplifting experience too. Just saying, what about your
[17:59]patients? Like, do any of them see themselves in here? Are you concerned about that? Do you open
[18:04]up in treatment with them the way you do in the book? Or is this like a whole new side of you
[18:09]that they're going to hear about? Like, how do you feel about that?
[18:12]You know, I think what I really learned in like it, it, it pan went into the positive psychology
[18:16]program with also, I think there had been this like weird wall between psychiatry, between like
[18:21]anything your patient knows about you and like, you know, they're just projecting whatever they
[18:25]aren't you. And there is some value in that. But also, I think there's value in being a human
[18:29]being as well. And so, you know, one of the most interesting sort of observations too was when,
[18:35]you know, you'd have to be when I was pregnant and, you know, do you tell your patient,
[18:39]do you not tell your patient like this is all these different theories that what one should say.
[18:42]And you know, that you could be like nine months pregnant and your patient doesn't even
[18:46]notice, you know, like denial being there. And because there are certain things that they are
[18:52]going to know about you in some way. But you know, I had permission for the, the stories that I
[18:56]told about them. And so I would never, in any way, you know, we've got hip-hop rules and
[19:01]something like that that to violate anyone's privacy. But I actually felt that even telling those
[19:05]stories was a way to, their experiences could help others too. And I think that that was a way
[19:10]for them to sort of, you know, share what had gone on in their own lives and changing many,
[19:16]many, many details. But I think there's an active generosity in what they were doing as well.
[19:20]So true. So how do you make sure aside from, you know, writing this book and using your work to
[19:27]help inform your, the people on your blog and your patients and all of that are, how do you get
[19:32]your like sort of vitality kick? Like what are some of your things? Truly, like I have to be
[19:37]really deliberate about it because otherwise I feel like a tumbleweed in the daytime because I can
[19:41]sort of, I do have my sort of turtle, like my, my, like turtle pathology that I will just retreat in
[19:48]some way and just kind of fold into myself. So I have to be deliberate. I have to be in nature
[19:52]at some point being in the park or even in concrete nature. Just walking on the streets in the city.
[19:57]I have to sit down properly to eat something and not eat on.
[20:00]to go, like my husband is German and he would be like,
[20:03]when's breakfast, when's lunch, when's dinner?
[20:04]You know, and I come from like a lost beer background.
[20:07]I'm like, we drink, you know?
[20:08]Like we live with Jesus and crackers with like vodka,
[20:10]but he's really into like proper meals.
[20:13]I've never missed a meal since I've met him
[20:14]because he's so deliberate.
[20:16]It's like this, you know, I think Europeans have a certain
[20:18]different like joy in eating.
[20:21]They grew up differently and that there's not that
[20:23]like on the go mindset.
[20:25]Like he doesn't understand it to go cup.
[20:27]Like it just is so unfathomable to him.
[20:30]But he's come around to it now.
[20:31]But so I really am kind of, I do try to be deliberate
[20:35]about food.
[20:36]I try to be super deliberate about how I sleep.
[20:38]And more and more, though, really about connections.
[20:41]I mean, I think that kind of reaching out to friend,
[20:43]having a phone call, like sometimes even
[20:45]like that with patients to like zoom is a bit much.
[20:47]People not like looking at themselves.
[20:49]Like actually like the old fashioned phone call could be so good.
[20:53]I think that's like a sort of deeper way to connect.
[20:55]Sometimes there's people not seeing you too.
[20:56]Like they don't have to reveal their space wherever they are.
[20:59]So it's just helpful to those are well springs of vitality
[21:01]and learning something and reading books.
[21:03]I love to read and I've been nothing better
[21:06]than reading during this period.
[21:07]And I talk a lot in the book about when you're like in a weird
[21:10]moment or having a hard time and you feel like you're
[21:12]going to sort of tumble down that sort of, you know,
[21:15]that spiral is, you know, we're told all the time these days
[21:18]to like be yourself.
[21:20]And I sometimes think that's not the best advice.
[21:22]And I will advise my patients.
[21:24]And also I take this personally too is be on you.
[21:27]Like what would be the on you thing to do in this moment?
[21:30]And you can't like kind of make that concrete.
[21:33]Who's somebody you admire?
[21:34]Like what would they do in this moment?
[21:36]And I think sometimes even, you know,
[21:38]their characters and literature that we have so much to learn
[21:41]from, you learn so much by immersing yourself
[21:43]in the life of another in a good book.
[21:47]And there is just this sort of distance you can take
[21:51]from whatever the, you know, heat of your own emotions are.
[21:53]And you're like, huh, what would this person do in that moment?
[21:57]And I think that fiction is a wonderful,
[22:00]like, wellspring of vitality.
[22:02]I love that you brought that up.
[22:04]I meant to say something about that.
[22:05]Cause my mom's advice to me not to, you know,
[22:07]throw her under the bus here,
[22:08]but when I was growing up and I was so shy
[22:10]and all this, you would always tell me
[22:12]before I went to like an event, you know, just be yourself.
[22:14]And I was like, that's like in first of all, it's impossible.
[22:17]Say about who even am.
[22:18]Like what does that even mean?
[22:19]And then I just would like have that in my, in my head
[22:22]and you have this check off quote when you said,
[22:24]we see those, well, this is sort of social comparison.
[22:27]Well, maybe I'll read that later.
[22:28]Sorry, that quote comes later.
[22:29]But anyway, you said pretending to be someone else
[22:32]can promote flexibility in the midst of anxiety.
[22:34]So when you suggest like being Barbara Walters or Oprah
[22:37]or whoever it is that you pick,
[22:39]like that's the thing that can get you through
[22:41]as long as they have something,
[22:42]some skill that you're trying to emulate, right?
[22:45]So I loved that.
[22:46]And, you know, I had been sort of,
[22:48]that's in my head that advice from my mom all the time.
[22:51]Cause I'm always like, well, I ever be able to just be me,
[22:54]you know, and to get it, like as soon as there is some,
[22:57]like, kernel, like of truth, some true you.
[23:01]And I think that's also denying the fact
[23:03]that we're all constantly changing.
[23:05]We're works in progress, hopefully bending in the direction
[23:08]of goodness and being intentional about it.
[23:10]But the idea that there is some true you
[23:12]is just such a flawed way of thinking about it
[23:15]in this sort of fixed self that, you know,
[23:18]is not allowing us to evolve.
[23:20]And I think it's even in our relationships
[23:23]to like sort of allow the other person to evolve as well
[23:27]and know that they're going to be changing.
[23:29]And, you know, I think that people sometimes say,
[23:31]like if you're in a relationship,
[23:31]if you're having a hard time in your relationship,
[23:33]like, don't worry, you know,
[23:34]she or he is gonna be a little different three months from now.
[23:36]You know, like we're all changing,
[23:37]maybe hopefully in the best direction.
[23:39]I think that's where we need to be a little bit
[23:40]intentional about it.
[23:42]That's like with kids.
[23:43]I mean, it's like, you know,
[23:44]they can be completely different people
[23:46]when you're to the next with different age spans
[23:49]and times of development.
[23:51]It's really nuts.
[23:52]So yeah, you have to be always ready to adapt.
[23:54]And sort of everything.
[23:55]Yeah.
[23:56]And if I do have like, oh, you've got to be authentic.
[23:58]Like, what does that really mean?
[24:00]You know, like, so I think the idea
[24:02]that you're being authentic and just like sort of being
[24:05]yourself or expressing your emotions,
[24:07]which is, you know, to a point maybe helpful,
[24:09]but one of those moments I think that you can get closer
[24:12]to the better version of yourself by channeling,
[24:15]you know, somebody you really admire.
[24:17]And then just when the final piece of advice
[24:19]that I took away and I've always kept this interest
[24:21]in social comparison theory,
[24:23]but you wrote from check-outs quote,
[24:24]we see those who go to the market to buy food,
[24:26]who eat in the daytime and sleep at night,
[24:28]who prattle away, marry, grow old,
[24:30]but we neither hear nor see those who suffer
[24:32]and the terrible things in life are played out behind the scenes.
[24:35]And I know you apply this to sort of Instagram life
[24:37]and thinking everybody is living this like perfect life,
[24:40]except for you and that just is totally depressing.
[24:42]But how can we sort of use social comparison for good?
[24:46]Well, you know, that quote was in this wonderful study
[24:49]called People Are More Musical than you think.
[24:51]It's not particularly uplifting.
[24:54]But actually, social comparison can get us
[24:57]like it can optimize us in some way too.
[24:59]You'd be like, wow, like that, you know,
[25:02]kid runs them out faster than I do.
[25:03]I can sort of boost that.
[25:04]It's even, you know, I think having somebody to compete
[25:07]against for other than in a vacuum can be really helpful
[25:10]and kind of bring out the best in you
[25:12]and kind of help you really shine.
[25:14]So, but I think with social media,
[25:17]it's a lot harder when you're really seeing, you know,
[25:19]it's not just you against like that other kid in your class,
[25:23]it's you against kind of the world.
[25:25]And it takes apparently like 17 seconds
[25:27]for a young woman to feel badly about herself
[25:30]after like, we think through Instagram.
[25:31]So as long as she knows, or she's looking at it,
[25:34]that this is not real life.
[25:36]Like this is a, you know, highlight reel of something really good.
[25:40]Like you almost have to go in knowing that it's choreographed,
[25:43]that it's manufactured.
[25:44]And to remind yourself that like they're kind of like
[25:46]little in this perfect lives, maybe aren't so perfect.
[25:49]And, you know, they don't call it ducks syndrome from Stanford.
[25:52]Like we always see other like people like cruising along,
[25:56]looking like they're having no trouble at all.
[25:58]And we never see like their legs
[25:59]and make the surface like paddling like crazy like a duck would.
[26:02]But I think when we let other people be human
[26:06]and I think Angela Duckworth was really human with me
[26:09]and even our heroes be more human like Simone Biles,
[26:11]you know, somebody who's held such a high standard of perfection.
[26:15]And people are so obsessed with like being perfect today
[26:19]and perfect in their social lives and perfect in the world
[26:21]they present and perfect in their achievements.
[26:24]I think it's a real, it's an actor generosity
[26:25]when you see people sort of pull back the curtain
[26:28]and show you kind of warts and all that,
[26:30]hey, it's really hard.
[26:32]It's true.
[26:33]So are you, are you reading anything amazing
[26:35]or have you read anything great this summer?
[26:37]I'm reading the mid-night library right now
[26:39]that I'm really enjoying that that's been fantastic.
[26:42]I just finished wild game that was put downable.
[26:47]Oh my goodness.
[26:49]And I'm not like a good cook and maybe I want to cook
[26:52]after that, but that was also an extraordinary book.
[26:55]And also she talks so much about how books changed her life
[26:59]and kind of gave her a just boost in an outlet
[27:02]and an exit from a life to rewrite the narrative.
[27:05]I really believe that people change
[27:08]and it's not something that I really learned.
[27:11]I think in medical school or in residency
[27:13]and even you were saying you were shy
[27:16]when you were younger and you're clearly not so shy now
[27:19]that people do change and that that book was a wonderful
[27:22]sort of message of that.
[27:23]Wow.
[27:24]I loved Adrienne Brader.
[27:25]I was just actually emailing with her this morning
[27:27]and give it well games, it's so funny.
[27:28]Yeah.
[27:29]Wow.
[27:30]I love that boat.
[27:31]Yeah, she's awesome.
[27:32]Okay, last question.
[27:33]What advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[27:36]Oh my goodness.
[27:37]Like you can do it and it's going to be really, really,
[27:40]if you can carve out at least an hour a day
[27:44]just to work on some part of it,
[27:46]just to fire something out so you feel like you are
[27:48]just making like a little dent in the in some progress.
[27:52]But I think it's really, really hard, but you can do it.
[27:55]And I had a really lovely friend Angela Duckworth
[27:58]who sent me her and I assumed she's like
[28:00]had this like seamless process.
[28:01]Does it fire it out this amazing book?
[28:03]And it turned out it was really, really hard for her to
[28:06]and it was really nice to have a friend kind of role model
[28:09]share her experience and it made it seem like a little bit
[28:12]less painful and actually a little bit more fun.
[28:14]Excellent.
[28:16]Well, I mean, if you're going to learn about grit,
[28:17]if you might as well learn.
[28:19]I'm incredibly, don't like gosh.
[28:22]Well, amazing.
[28:23]Well, Samantha, thanks for coming on mom's no time
[28:25]to read books.
[28:26]Thanks for giving everybody your dose of everyday vitality.
[28:29]And I know that this book will really benefit a lot
[28:31]of people and that's amazing.
[28:33]So I just hope more everybody grabs a copy
[28:36]and starts changing their lives.
[28:38]Thank you.
[28:39]Thank you so much.
[28:40]Have a great day.
[28:42]Thank you.
[28:43]Hi, good bye.
[28:45]Thanks for listening to this episode of
[28:47]Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:48]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zebioans
[28:51]and at Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[28:54]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebioans.com
[28:56]and sign up for my virtual book club
[28:58]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[29:00]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[29:03]for the Sound Editing.
[29:04]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[29:06]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.