James Whiteside, CENTER CENTER: A Funny, Sexy, Sad Almost-Memoir of a Boy in Ballet
[0:01]Hi, this is Vivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
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[0:38]James Whiteside is the author of Center Center, a funny, sexy, sad, almost memoir of a boy in ballet.
[0:45]James Whiteside's alter egos, by the way, are J.B. doves and a hub-ech.
[0:52]He has a principal dancer with American Ballet Theatre, a pop star,
[0:56]and a member of the New York City-based drag posse, The Dairy Queens,
[1:00]which also includes RuPaul's Drag Race, Alum Milk.
[1:03]He has choreographed for music videos, commercials, film, and ballet,
[1:07]and in 2018, he starred in Arthur PETA's Dance Theatre work, The Tenant, at the Joyce Theater in New York City.
[1:12]James also hosts his own popular podcast, The Stage Right Side, with James Whiteside.
[1:17]That's funny.
[1:18]His song and music video, I hate my job, has been featured in The New York Times,
[1:22]Huffington Post, MTV Billboard, and more.
[1:25]Welcome, James.
[1:26]Thank you so much for coming, and moms don't have time to read books,
[1:29]to discuss Center Center, a funny, sexy, sad, almost memoir of a boy in ballet.
[1:35]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:36]I'm so thrilled to be here.
[1:38]By the way, this is like an amazing cover.
[1:40]Were you so thrilled to see this?
[1:41]What did you think of it?
[1:42]Oh, my goodness.
[1:43]Well, I had a lot of options to choose from with this cover.
[1:46]I knew I wanted to work with this artist named Daniel Clark,
[1:49]who I actually was connected with on Instagram.
[1:52]I love his digital paintings.
[1:54]I didn't want like a big photo of my face or something weird.
[1:57]So I asked for this artist to do like a rendering of this photo that I have.
[2:03]And it's amazing.
[2:04]And then the artists that work with Penguin, Random House Design,
[2:09]came up with this like pink and yellow, really poppy, wild cover
[2:14]that I just am obsessed with.
[2:16]And everyone comments on how good the cover is, which makes me really happy.
[2:20]Well, now I feel pathetic for saying what everybody else does.
[2:23]I like to be at least a little bit different.
[2:25]But anyway, I'm kidding.
[2:26]Of course, it's great.
[2:28]I don't know.
[2:29]I mean, they say covers don't make a difference,
[2:30]but it really can draw your attention in.
[2:32]So anyway, congrats on the cover.
[2:36]But why don't you tell everybody about your,
[2:39]why you decided to even write this book?
[2:41]I mean, here you are.
[2:42]You're this amazingly accomplished ballet dancer.
[2:46]Huge star in so many different ways.
[2:48]And yet you spend a lot of time.
[2:50]And by the way, I loved your family history.
[2:53]I was like, I'm obsessed with your mom.
[2:55]I want to talk all about her story.
[2:56]But why, why write this book?
[2:58]So when I was around 20 years old,
[3:00]I had the idea to write a book called Center Center.
[3:04]So I actually had the title of the book, you know, 15 years before I started writing it.
[3:10]And I always aspired to be a person who was on center center on a stage,
[3:16]which signifies its depth and width.
[3:18]And you know, at that time, I was in aspiring ballet dancer in the core to ballet.
[3:23]I had just been in a princess in Boston, ballet.
[3:25]And all I wanted to do was the lead roles in ballet as like Swan Lake,
[3:29]Romeo and Juliet, Sleeping Beauty.
[3:31]You know, and many more.
[3:33]So like, I knew that I had all these stories living within me.
[3:37]And that I, I have a unique voice, you know, hair flip.
[3:42]I just, it felt right to explore writing.
[3:48]I'm not a writer per se, but I did my best here.
[3:52]And, you know, I'm really, really happy with how it came out.
[3:55]I think it's really interesting to sort of explore yourself in a way that you never do.
[4:01]And I've learned so much from all of this.
[4:04]I bet.
[4:05]I mean, this was like a deep dive into so many parts of your life.
[4:10]And you did it in such a creative way too.
[4:13]I mean, the way you interspersed like the story and like flashbacks,
[4:17]like even different fonts.
[4:19]And then you have like a screenplay and drawings.
[4:21]And it's definitely like a huge creative, you know, I don't know, enterprise,
[4:26]if you will.
[4:27]So it's neat to see that because there's so many different ways to approach chronicling a life,
[4:32]right, essentially.
[4:33]And this was really unique as you are.
[4:35]So there you go.
[4:36]Well, thanks.
[4:37]I didn't want it to be a sort of self aggrandizing memoir.
[4:40]I'm 37 years old.
[4:42]I have not lived my life yet, really.
[4:45]So I wanted it to be like really multi medium, like with illustrations and different forms of writing,
[4:52]fantasy, a screenplay or whatever.
[4:55]It's just, it's a little random.
[4:59]I like it.
[5:02]Well, you start out by basically showing us your incredible perseverance and how you grew up among all these amazing ballet dancers
[5:11]and some of them attained success before you.
[5:14]And you had these summer internships where you got these scholarships to ABT for the summer.
[5:19]And then you had this like crushing thing where they wrote you this funny letter.
[5:23]And they're like, yeah, no, you can't do that again.
[5:25]You're like, you're basically telling me I've wasted all of my time, like, thank you very much.
[5:30]So you have to like land on your feet again and not give up.
[5:33]What was it about like I always love hearing why people don't give up in certain situations, right?
[5:39]You were not discouraged.
[5:40]And obviously you had tons of talent and all the rest.
[5:42]But like, how do you just keep going and like go to Boston and like thrive there and then come back.
[5:50]And by the way, your negotiating skills with ABT were amazing about the soloist situation.
[5:56]I was like applauding you in that moment.
[5:58]So tell me tell me a little bit about that.
[6:00]So I think perseverance or the ability to persevere has a lot to do with the sort of innate qualities of a person and the atmosphere that they're in.
[6:12]I grew up in an atmosphere that supported delusion in the best way.
[6:18]So when I kept getting rejected from American Valley Theater in New York City, I was incredulous because I knew I wasn't the best by any means.
[6:28]But I also knew that I could be really good.
[6:33]You know, I knew I had the stuff within me whether it be work ethic or personality or style.
[6:40]I knew I had something to offer that wasn't being given a chance.
[6:45]And I don't know if that has to do with my parents or my siblings or where I grew up or what it is for just my brain chemistry.
[6:52]But I knew I wasn't done yet and that it was completely incorrect to dismiss me so soon.
[7:00]I was 16 years old. So I worked my ass off for a really long time.
[7:05]And I finally got there and it's working.
[7:10]That's great. I love it. That's so great.
[7:12]Yeah, let's talk about this family of yours because you, okay.
[7:17]So your mom takes up with her swim coach.
[7:21]She has four kids and I have to tell you and I am a mom before I left my husband.
[7:26]I married my kids tennis pro.
[7:28]So anyway, he's now a TV producer, you know, moving in TV and film producer everything.
[7:33]But I totally related to Nancy in this moment where she is like, you know, living this nice Greenwich life.
[7:39]And next thing you know, she and Stuart are like off into the sunset and you track your whole history and how you have all these four older siblings.
[7:48]And then you come along as a product of this like love marriage.
[7:52]And then your mom has like a million bad things happen to her like one after another after another after another and like the compassion you write with about her and the love like just tell me about Nancy.
[8:06]Tell me about like just just go there.
[8:08]So I dedicated the book to Nancy, my mother. I adore her.
[8:13]And I lost her in 2016.
[8:16]And like in writing about your late mother, like when I started writing this, I did only been like three or four years since she had passed.
[8:25]And you know, I don't know if that's quite enough perspective, but I did my best to to write honestly with empathy and understanding as opposed to like I just
[8:37]did not want to write like a mean piece about my mother who was fascinating, inspiring, creative, brilliant and also incredibly flawed as all humans tend to be.
[8:50]So I had a really intense task of writing honestly about someone that I really love and respect with complete and utter devastating honesty.
[9:00]The toxic shock syndrome that she went like I've only ever heard of that because it's like a warning and like women's feminine products occasionally like watch out.
[9:09]But I've never known anyone who's had it and she had two horrific bouts with it describe that a little bit because I could not believe that the physical impact that had on her and how you must have felt watching this
[9:22]happen to her. I mean that that must have been excruciating for you.
[9:25]I was a teenager when she had it and I don't know if you know this, but teenagers are incredibly selfish and horrible.
[9:32]No way.
[9:33]So when this was all happening, I almost resent to her for being ill because I was going through my own issues like trying to figure out my sexuality.
[9:45]I mean the terms with the fact that my mother and father, you know divorce when I was two years old and struggling with having two different households with different sets of rules navigating, you know being bad at school and dancing and all these things were going through my mind and I was
[10:00]It's entirely too selfish to commiserate and empathize with a very, very, very ill woman.
[10:06]And so I have a lot of shame from that time, honestly.
[10:10]And that's something that I really learned in writing about my mother is like how awful
[10:16]I have been, you know?
[10:18]And almost in writing this story, like my mother's story, it's like, that was my best
[10:23]way of apologizing because I think she deserves so much better than I gave her.
[10:29]You can only give what you have to give.
[10:31]I mean, that's what you had to give then.
[10:33]You can't like look back and I'm sure you weren't as bad as you thought, you know?
[10:40]But while she went through a lot, you guys went through a lot, you know, the way you
[10:45]wrote about it too was so great.
[10:46]I mean, like the flood when you detail like, you know, it's like a story in homes, right?
[10:51]Each home and like the sort of downward mobility that she goes through until she's in
[10:56]this shack and then the shack floods and she's basically left with nothing.
[11:00]I know this is your story.
[11:01]I'm sorry.
[11:02]I'm like, you know, let's talk about your mom's mom.
[11:04]I'll stop.
[11:05]Just the most interesting part of my story for sure.
[11:08]No, no.
[11:09]I mean, your own life is super interesting too.
[11:10]But how she was even able to come back from that, because in that moment when like the
[11:14]house is covered in seaweed, I was just like, I think this woman might be killing herself.
[11:18]Like, I don't know how she's going to go on.
[11:19]I don't know how they're going to get out of this moment.
[11:22]Like, how did you all rally from that?
[11:25]Like how, like, I couldn't believe you even tried to salvage the house.
[11:30]We didn't have a choice.
[11:31]It was, it was just what we had to work with at the time.
[11:36]And, you know, this goes back to that sort of strength and delusion thing.
[11:40]You know, we were, she had five kids, all of whom have a very, very strong bond with
[11:45]one another.
[11:46]I think in witnessing our bond, she, there was nothing to do but keep going.
[11:53]And we all lifted one another up and made it work because there was no other choice.
[12:00]You know, it's, it's rather inspiring when I think about the way she persevered.
[12:06]Wow.
[12:07]And lastly with your mom, I'm sorry, but when she and your sister-in-law, I guess we're
[12:11]standing at the top of the stairs and your mom is like in the worst place emotionally.
[12:16]And she was like, just look just like in all of you guys were down there, like laughing
[12:20]and carrying on.
[12:21]And she's like, look how beautiful this is.
[12:23]I mean, that was so moving because it's like, no matter what you go through, like, look
[12:28]at what you can create and what lives on after you.
[12:31]And now look at that, you know, and here you are honoring her with this book.
[12:34]And I don't know.
[12:35]It's very moving.
[12:36]Thank you.
[12:37]Yeah.
[12:38]I mean, I, in the height of the pandemic, I sat with my siblings and my, you know, my
[12:44]brothers and sisters-in-law.
[12:46]And we would just like get drunk and do Zoom like meetings together.
[12:51]And I would take notes on their experiences and just learn their points of view in dealing
[12:56]with Nancy and, and being raised by Nancy.
[13:00]Because, you know, our age, our age range is quite wide.
[13:04]So it was so exciting to hear about their points of view and their experiences and things
[13:10]like that.
[13:11]You know, it's, it was beautiful to hear.
[13:14]That's amazing.
[13:15]And then back to your dancing.
[13:17]So now you're like, so what is it like not to have achieved all of this after going
[13:23]through so much?
[13:24]I mean, I'm, I like what you want Instagram and you're, I mean, you're like, amazing.
[13:28]It's like so cool to see and what you can do with your body and like using it like that.
[13:33]Like, are you in pain a lot of the time?
[13:36]Like, how are you doing this?
[13:37]Like, do you, are you like taking ice baths?
[13:39]Like, how do you get through all of this training and everything?
[13:42]I mean, ballet is rather painful and hard on the body.
[13:46]It's unnatural.
[13:47]You know, it's pretty unnatural what we're doing, but I don't take care of myself as much
[13:52]as I should.
[13:53]I absolutely load taking baths.
[13:55]I'm a very sort of quick and dirty kind of maintenance person.
[14:00]Like, if something's really messing me up, I will, you know, do an ad bill before bed
[14:05]and like, maybe ice, my ankle or knee or something, but I don't really get massages
[14:11]all that often, you know, I don't do physical therapy as often as I should.
[14:16]I sort of let my body do its thing and it tends to work out pretty well for me.
[14:22]I've been incredibly fortunate.
[14:24]I have not had completely debilitating injuries.
[14:27]I'd say the worst thing I've dealt with is Catellar tendonitis, which is the tendon in
[14:31]your knee that connects your kneecap.
[14:34]And that's just from jumping around and you know, it's, it's also called runners knee.
[14:38]I don't run, but I sure do run around the stage.
[14:41]I can't.
[14:43]So what you've so you've achieved, like so many of the goals you set out to do, and now
[14:48]you have this book out, like what's next, like what's on your list of like, okay, well,
[14:53]I did this and I do this and like, now I want to do this is there, you know, a ballet
[14:57]you want to star in a performance you want to do, a place you want to go, where you want
[15:01]to dance or is there something like personally or eager to, you know, cross off the list?
[15:08]So, okay, this is going to be a laundry list of pipe dreams here, but I like to put things
[15:13]out into the world.
[15:14]You know, I would love very, very much to adapt an essay or two or three or all from
[15:19]my book into television or film or even a play.
[15:23]I would like to continue choreographing classical ballets.
[15:28]Ideally, I would make a full-length story ballet, hopefully centering around queer stories
[15:33]because that doesn't exist yet.
[15:36]I would like to write a teen series of books fiction, and yeah, that's that's a good laundry
[15:44]list for now.
[15:45]That is good.
[15:46]Wait, the teen series, what would that be about?
[15:48]I can't tell you yet, but I know what you're about, yeah, I don't want to tell me.
[15:52]Yeah, because I know it will morph and change, but I have a very solid plan.
[15:58]That's awesome.
[15:59]I love that.
[16:00]Very cool.
[16:02]Excellent, great.
[16:06]Well, so what advice would you have having made it through this memoir project, aspiring
[16:11]authors, people who want to tell their own story or even want to like figure out how
[16:16]to tell their family story in a way that doesn't alienate the people who are still alive
[16:20]and honors those who have passed away and yet gets to the crux of it, like you've made
[16:25]it your way through here.
[16:26]What's your advice?
[16:28]My advice is to wait till everybody else is dead.
[16:32]I'm getting definitely kidding.
[16:34]Okay, so I as a creative person, I am not shy, and this has served me incredibly well.
[16:42]I am not an extrovert, not an introvert.
[16:46]I lie somewhere in the middle there, but creatively, I am so extroverted.
[16:53]I don't care if you like what I make.
[16:55]I'm just happy to make it.
[16:57]And I think this is a great place to be creatively, and you know, I didn't go to college.
[17:04]I pretty much barely graduated high school, but I am curious.
[17:08]I read a lot, and I wanted to write a book, so I did my best to make it happen.
[17:15]So don't be shy, be creative, be bold, and just do it.
[17:19]I love it.
[17:21]That's great.
[17:22]James, thank you so much.
[17:24]Thank you for sharing your story, and for chatting with me today.
[17:27]I really truly enjoyed it, and yeah, it was great.
[17:30]Thank you, Zibi.
[17:31]It's my pleasure.
[17:32]I hope everyone enjoys it out there.
[17:34]Excellent.
[17:35]All right.
[17:36]Bye.
[17:39]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[17:42]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zibi Owens, and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[17:47]Books.
[17:48]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club, and
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[17:54]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan, at Textures Sound, for the Sound Editing.
[17:58]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out
[18:02]to your music.