Chin, YZ, EDGE CASE: A Novel

[1:39]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. If all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram ZibbyOwens and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.

[2:16]Y.Z. Chin: Y. Z. Chin is the author of Etch Case. She also wrote Though I Get Home, which won the Louise Merriweather First Book Prize and the Asian Pacific American Award for Literature on her title. Her writing has been published in Harvard Review, Gulf Coast, Some Such Stories, Electric Literature, LitHub, and elsewhere. Born and raised in Malaysia, she now lives in New York where she works as a software engineer. Welcome, YZ. Thank you for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss edge case, especially as a mom to a nine month old baby. So thank you even more so. Definitely relate hard. Thanks for having me. Okay. Edge Case, congratulations on this beautiful novel. Thank you. Would you mind telling listeners what it's about? Yeah. So it's a story told in first person by a quote unquote so called skilled worker immigrant. Her name is Edwina. She is from Malaysia, and she works for a tech startup in New York City. She lives with her husband who is also, you know, similar similar shoes, a skilled worker immigrant. They are both on work visas that are sort of rapidly expiring, and they will require green card sponsorship soon. So at this important juncture in their lives, Marlin deserts their marriage essentially. He walks out. He disappears on Edwina. So the story is Edwina telling a would be therapist about her experiences, how she got here, what her current situation is, like, what her future plans might be as she sort of searches frantically for Marlin. I love how Edwina and Marlin later on said they used to compete for, like, who would be sponsored first from their different jobs. Yeah, I think that's maybe the competition might be like more one-sided, maybe it's more Edwina because she has like maybe she has a complex, right? She has a chip on her shoulder because she used to study literature. So she's entering the tech role a little bit through unconventional path, whereas Marlin is your more traditional engineering student, now a software engineer. So maybe she feels like she has to prove herself a little bit and not be, quote unquote, a green card wife, perhaps. So part of this book is sort of the search for Marlin until she, you know, I won't give anything away. And I love how you include these lists and then kind of check them off as you go. I mean, her what you know, the character. But even from, a structural point, you're, like, going through it, like, okay, crossing this one off. Okay. Now we're going crossing the next one off and trying to figure out, like, why he's left and then all of the flashbacks of their their lives, really, and how they got there. Even how you intersperse the chapters and, you know, today and two days from now and back, you know, I just love that when it's all mixed up in time line. You know? Yeah. So what what made you write the book and how did you come up with the form and everything like that? Mhmm. Maybe I'll answer the second question first because I was nodding along as you said that I'm so glad you like it that suit like many novels, this one went through a lot of drafts and the structures sort of crystallized after a lot of discussion with my really great editor, Sarah Birmingham. So she's responsible, I think, for a lot of the brilliant ideas for how to organize the story. But I think from the start, I think there's like you can sort of see a hint of the structure sort of taking the form of these past life stories. I know we haven't talked about that yet, but Edwina's mother who lives in Malaysia really believes in past life and is I don't know if this is the right way to say. She's like a connoisseur of past life stories. So because there's this really powerful force behind this idea, right, like that everything, who you are now, every action you're taking now can be attributed to something that happened in the past where there's a reason for everything that's happening now for your actions. So this past influencing the present, that's sort of, I think, mirrors the structure a little bit like, oh, here's what how we met. Here's what happened at this point in the past, and that's why I'm here now telling you about this, you know, this latest event, this sort of upheaval in my life. Yeah. So that's that's the structure. And I think, yeah, it does help feed into like, show you how maybe sort of desperate Edwina is for a narrative to how did my life get to this place? Why am I here? And then how I came to write this book, I think there are so many entry points into the book. It's really difficult to, like, sort of talk about neatly, but I think one one factor is that I tell this anecdote a bunch, but I moved to New York City in my twenties, and I was standing on a street corner, like a dark street corner. I was trying to get a cab home. I was living in Manhattan at that point, and it was sort of dark. So then I I stuck my arm out, you know, yellow cab slowed down near me. The driver poked his head, looked at me, and then said, oh, I'm not going to Queens and just sped off. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So there's a lot of context wrapped up in this, you know, very quick two second encounter and not everyone might know, like, why why did the driver say that? You know, what what is it about Queens? But yeah. So a lot of Asians live in Queens. Anyway, so so I later realized sort of disturbingly that I understood everything about this encounter instantly. And that sort of made me realize that I'd been internalizing a lot of, you know, stereotypes and tropes and, you know, to just, like, potentially, like, racist ideas about how I'm supposed to be seen, how I'm supposed to move through New York City, through The United States as a whole. And I hadn't even realized that, you know, all these ideas had been inside me. But, yeah, I actually understand a lot of my supposed place in this new country because I am from Malaysia. Although the story is not autobiographical. Anyway, yeah, so that's one of the things that I sort of thought about on and off over the years, and that's, I think, one germ for the novel. And I'm assuming it must have really come about when you were trying to cut into some sort of spaghetti squash or, you know, butternut squash or something. Because I love you should you should, like, brand the type of knife that is in this book, the the knife for difficult fruit or whatever, fruits and vegetables, because it is so true when I think about how many times things have been, like, slipping off the table and, like, watermelons and like it's so hard to cut those things. So anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough, but in Malaysia, people eat a lot of durian. And I think I don't know. In every household, there's like at least one expert durian hacker. I'm not that I'm not that person in my family. Yeah. But, yeah, I I think, you know, you're used to the idea, I think, growing up that, wow. That there's this delicious fruit that may may hurt you, and it's very hard to cut open. Yes. Yeah. A metaphor for life. Right? There's some you can take this really far and deep, but I'll leave it at that. Yeah. That's the reason they call it fruits of your labor. Exactly. Exactly. There you go. So you also really write well about the, I would say, like the tenuous state of our minds, right? And what is mental health? Like, when are you super clear about like, when can you trust somebody else's thoughts and feelings? When they lose touch with reality, how do you handle that? Like, how do you reconcile, like especially your innermost relationship when like someone is living in more of a spiritual world or, you know, has different conceptions and how that impacts the relationship in different ways. So tell me a little more about that. Mhmm. Yeah. I think, yeah, that's what Edwina struggles with most and they I think that's the thorniest part of the narrative for Edwina. So there's this snippet in the book that sort of reflects how maybe not well accepted or well socialized mental health services is in the small town Edwina grows up in, and doesn't. She has a hard time finding mental health support. And I think that might be true also for, many Asian Americans. There there's potentially stigma in seeking therapy still. I I think we've obviously come a long way, but that has been true in the past. So that's something that she bumps up against, which is the idea of seeking therapy, but also the mental health in in different forms. Right? Like her mother believes in past lives, and that's like a completely different framework for discussing, you know, explanations or for your behaviors and how to adapt them. So, like, what happens when Nelwina might not necessarily agree with either framework, you know, the, like, behavioral talk therapy? Maybe she doesn't really believe in that or maybe she hasn't seen that as an option, but she also doesn't can't really accept this other framework her mother presents and there's this complicating factor of where on green card applications, they ask applicants about mental health statuses so Irina feels this like paranoia that she cannot engage in. She has to seem really normal first of all and then she cannot risk you know having a record like where she like officially goes see a therapist. Like she's just like consumed by all these paranoid worries. So mental health is her biggest struggle and that's why she sort of ends up talking to this bootleg therapist in the novel which like seems really sketchy and I I hope sort of suffuses a sense of precarity like gently in the background. Yes. Like, who is she really talking to anyway? You know? Right. Yeah. Quite bright on a therapist. And you're like, I'm a therapist in training. I mean, I could say that. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Actually, you end up with a lot of great stories that way, have to say. If you're looking for a story idea. Oh, yeah. Don't don't tempt me. Okay. I mean, I you know, in exchange for story ideas, use me as your therapist. I don't know. Yeah. It's a new business model out there, maybe.

[12:24]Zibby Owens: Also yeah.

[12:26]Y.Z. Chin: You did a great job also of showing what it's like for a woman in a male dominated tech environment and what that's like with sort of the culture and how you even point out, individually, maybe these guys would be great, but culture of them all together, and I think we all have been in situations with this sort of frat boy culture where you're one or you're in a group and the group dynamic sort of overtakes the will of each individual. And so Edwina, like, faces that every day in her work life. Tell me where that came from and everything. No. Exactly. I think you're spot on with the group dynamics part. It's it's structural. Right? It's not, like like, people say one bad apple or or things like that. It's not it's, like, the lack of accountability perhaps. Like, obviously, they're good people, like you said, and individually, they can be very decent. But it's the yeah. So yeah. Anyway, where this came from, I think, you know, it's it's not I'm I don't think I'm, like, breaking new ground here. I think there have been many news reports yeah. About Like, Susan Fowler and Uber. There there's lots of material to mine, but I I did work in a couple of startups and those startups were sort of like dominantly male. And, yeah, I've I've had, you know, I've had some sketchy encounters as well. I had a coworker once joke about putting date rape jokes in my coffee. Yeah. Yeah. I'm laughing nervously. I'm not not laughing. I understand. Yeah. So Edwina's experiences aren't my direct experiences, but I think I can obviously very well relate to what happened, what happens in the book. It's, like, no stretch of imagination to, you know, sort of describe what she goes through. But also yeah. So the follow-up to my personal experience there, the story is my manager at the time was very supportive. I was very sympathetic. So, yeah, there are definitely ways to address issues well. Unfortunately, in Edwina's company, she doesn't have that support. But yeah. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quint's has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[16:56]Y.Z. Chin: Wow. Yeah. So that's where all of that came from. I feel like you should also do something with the branding of the suitcase in this book. You know, I feel like this suitcase is like such a visual maybe like, I don't know, on your paperback, you have to I don't know. I felt like, especially when like, well, I don't want give anything, but you know, at different times, like it has different absences or different places and whatever. And I don't know, you could just so see it. Like, I wanted to know, where is the suitcase at the end of the book? Like, where does it end? Anyway. Yeah. There are a lot of branding ideas. Yeah. Lot of branding. Okay. I'll stop. This is like I have I have fun thinking about this stuff. They're turning. I should probably do something with them. No. No. I just I find that super fun. So why did you write this book? I wrote it for for many reasons. I think one major one is just because I left Malaysia when I was 19. Came to United States when I was 19, and I would have these regular weekly, you know, Skype calls with my family. And I think it's sort of distressing to realize that you're changing. You know? You can sort of see yourself changing in the eyes of people closest to you, and you might not like the way that you're changing. You might realize that being in a new place, having to, like, you know, learn your new place, and these, like, rules and regulations that might not that that might apply to you as an immigrant might feel, you know, feel like they're pressuring your personality. So I think there's, like, rare situations where an individual, especially minorities everywhere in the world, you can realize that you are being changed by systemic forces maybe into someone that you don't really want to be but you feel like you have to be in order to, whatever, get better job or get that visa, things like that. And so, yeah, you start to maybe see your identity as transactional almost. So I think that's a very interesting state of mind, and I wanted to capture that instability that, you know, you sort of knowing and yet not wanting to know, but then painfully also understanding that you are in the process of being transformed. That was a beautiful answer. Okay. But and why have you always written? Like, what made you write a novel at all? Like, where did this come from? Did you what did you were did you write as a little kid? Like, tell me about the journey here. Yeah. So my mom worked in an insurance office and she would sometimes take me to work. And just to, like, let me occupy myself, she would put me down in front of a typewriter. Yeah. Back then, typewriters still existed, and I would just go at it. So, yeah, I I guess I maybe it started off as me pretending to work, you know, trying to fit in with all the adults around me. I don't know. But stories, I think, have always been important for me. Just I socially awkward like many authors. Many writers and readers, socially awkward. Yeah. Hard to make friends, like, you know, notes in book. Yeah. And yeah. And then when I came to The United States, I studied computer science. I also had the opportunity to double major in creative writing. I actually started off in poetry. So, yeah, took a few turns, and here I am with a novel somehow. It's a little hard to believe. Well, that's amazing. Do you know I just heard last night from a new friend of mine that there's a way to make friends on Bumble. Did you know this? Maybe I'm No. You can it's not just for dating. It there's like a BFF Bumble or something like that. And you can put in, like, the things you're interested in and, like, swipe on friends. And she's like made some good friends this way. Not sketchy at all, like real highly accomplished women who have similar interests. I don't know. I found that fascinating. Yeah. Actually, I I did know you can say on dating dating sites, you can say I'm just looking for friends. But I yeah. I never heard of someone using that earnestly and actually having great results. So that's really good for her. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. That was totally random point, but just on your making friends comment. That's great. So how long did it take you to write? Like, where did you do it? Like, I'm looking in your room or something. Were you like sitting on the bed there, like typing away? Like, tell me about it. Yes. So I I think the very first lines of the novel written in 2017 and they I think from the beginning, the past life stories were a big part of the novel. I think I started off with a much bigger focus on the past life stories and then slowly iterated through working with my agent, working with early readers, like, getting a sense of, you know, what works, what doesn't. So what is it now? 2021. I guess it's been four years. Yeah. Went through many drafts, and I wrote it so I actually published a book for the novel. It's a fiction collection called Though I Get Home. I wrote that while I was working full time due to visa requirements. So, yeah, as part of having a visa, I'm required to work forty hours a week at least. So that book came out in 2018, and that was also the year that I got my green card, which allowed me to work my day job part time instead of full time. So once I switched to part time, I found that, you know, I had some ambition in me to write a novel because I thought to myself, okay, now I have more time to dedicate to writing. I wanna write a novel I want to write. I want to tackle character voice. I wanna write a unique voice. I wanna write, you know, something challenging. Yeah. So then that's that's where I I usually write at a kitchen table. Yeah. Not nothing nothing super glamorous. And it rarely is, but, you know, I always existed. And how about now? Are you working on something new? In my head. Yeah. So writing absolutely It's in my right. It's a little it's a little hard with almost nine months old, but, you know, I'm thinking up, you know, plot events, like thinking up a line here, a line there, sort of, you know, crisscrossing words all in my head. And then when I get a chance, when baby's taking a nap, for for example, I'll just sort of scramble to the laptop and type stuff down. But, yeah, one day, maybe I'll be someone who writes long hand on beautiful paper but not right now. Yeah. Well, you know, send me pictures of that if you get to that. I'll take some pictures. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors? Yeah. I would say, you know, if life I don't wanna say life gets in the way because that that doesn't sound right. So, yeah, if there are life circumstances that prevent you from, like I said, sitting down writing for uninterrupted stretches of time, I think it's totally doable and it still counts as writing to write in in your head. I think thinking about the work, engaging with the work mentally as you go about, you know, go interacting with, like, the world and the the debris of your life almost. I think that counts as writing, and it's every bit of it is valuable. I like to look at Emily Dickinson's envelope poems sometimes. So I went to an exhibition at the Morgan, I believe it was, and did an exhibition of Emily Dickinson's poems that she wrote just like on the triangular flap of envelopes. And they literally shape her lines because of the constraint. And so, you know, I I found that very moving. She's probably going about doing chores, taking an envelope out of her pocket, writing a line here, a line there, you know, sweeping. And yeah. Just I really like how part seamlessly not seamlessly. It's how how entirely part of the fabric of her life, her art is, and I'm striving to do the same and not feel like, taking care of a baby is taking me away from writing. It's not. It's all part of it's all it's all art. It's all part of it. Let's just keep saying that to ourselves. I'm gonna keep saying that to myself too with my kids. I'm like, no. No. I do feel like, you know, I write a ton of essays. Like that's my preferred sort of genre. So I can always tell when the first kind of seed flies in and I like lodges in there and then more seeds attract until there are enough that I'm ready for them to become like a plant and then I ride it out. I mean, that sounds ridiculous. Just but you know No, I love it. Need all the inputs before it's ready to come out again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't just be sitting there because you won't get inputs from doing that. Yeah. And sometimes it's like consolation, right? A star here, an idea here, an idea there, they don't seem connected and then you see the connection. Yeah. No. It's great. Totally. I I buy that. I totally agree. Alright. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Oh, wait. Advice to aspiring authors. More advice. Anything you have? More advice. Would say and I mean, I think advice is tricky because, like, not everything works for everyone. So, know, I feel like yeah. Read as many advice as you can and take what works for you. But I would say first at least the very first draft or first couple of drafts, write for yourself. Mhmm. I mean, just don't worry about how, you know, a reader might perceive it, how an agent might perceive it. Just write for yourself. And then in later drafts, I think that's when you maybe try to approach it with, okay, how would someone not at all engaged who hasn't been obsessing over this material like I have for the past, I don't know, one, three, four, five years. Like, how would someone like that approach this? I think in the very later stages is when, you know, you're you're you should bring in the outside perspective. But the very first draft, it should be just for you, and you shouldn't at all have a reader in your mind. I was so nervous starting the draft for my memoir that once I had, like, sold it that I put in all capital letters, no one will see this but you. Yeah. And then I was like, okay. Now I can, like, start. And then I was fine. But, you know, Yeah, never hurt yeah, it's definitely it allows, I don't know, you have to give yourself room to like make mistakes or go where even you don't think you want to go. I think I like, I like to tell myself and I don't know if this advice works for everyone but I like to say instead of writing just what you know, write what you know but also write what you don't want to know. Like what are you afraid of knowing? What what do you find yourself sort of mentally, you know, skidding about? Like, what are you racing past? Like, what are you afraid to confront? Yeah. Awesome. Alright. Hope that helps. It helps. It all helps. Okay. Well, Wisey, this was so interesting. And thank you for coming on. Thanks for this fantastic novel filled with, you know, the tech startup, the relationship at home, the abandonment, the search, the you know, all of it. You have a lot of great elements, you know, friendship, family, you know, just get it all in there. So go go. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Alright. And I hope reading and writing goes smoothly Thank you so much. Good luck with, you know, the whole launch time and everything. Thank you. All right. Take care. Bye. Take care. Bye.

[28:03]Zibby Owens: Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram Zibby Owens and at moms don't have time to read books. Also, sign up for my newsletter at zibbyowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.