Sophie Brickman, BABY, UNPLUGGED: One Mother's Search for Balance, Reason, and Sanity in the Digital Age
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[0:35]Okay, now back to this amazing podcast.
[0:37]Sophie Brickman is the author of Baby Unplugged,
[0:40]one mother searched for balance, reason, and sanity in the digital age.
[0:44]She is a reporter, writer, and editor,
[0:46]who is written for The New Yorker, The New York Times,
[0:48]The Wall Street Journal, Ella Saver, The San Francisco Chronicle,
[0:51]and other outlets.
[0:52]Her work has also appeared in The Best Food Writing,
[0:54]and The Best American Science Writing Anthologies.
[0:56]A Harvard graduate, she lives in New York City,
[0:59]with her husband and children.
[1:00]Welcome, Sophie.
[1:01]Thanks so much for coming on Momstone Have Time to read books,
[1:04]to discuss Baby Unplugged, One Mother's Search for Balance,
[1:07]Reason, and sanity in the digital age.
[1:09]Thank you so much, it's lovely to be here.
[1:11]Oh, I wrote this essay a long time ago,
[1:13]called A Mother's Right to Sanity.
[1:15]So I feel like, you know, I have not yet found it myself,
[1:19]but I'm hoping that you found it in your search.
[1:21]I don't know, not really, but you know, I did my best.
[1:25]I'm being forward.
[1:27]I actually have a six week old story now of each year yesterday.
[1:30]So I'm in the thick of it.
[1:32]Oh my gosh, six week old baby and another child and a book.
[1:35]And a lot of other child, this is my third kid.
[1:37]Oh, that's your third child.
[1:39]Growing gasoline on the fire at this point.
[1:40]Yeah, wow.
[1:42]I'm two daughters, five and two and then, baby.
[1:44]Oh my gosh, congratulations.
[1:46]Thank you so much.
[1:47]Wow.
[1:48]Well, how are you doing all this?
[1:51]Coffee, coffee, coffee.
[1:54]I have various couple of hanging in there.
[1:56]It's been, it's been very enjoyable actually.
[1:59]So good.
[2:00]Keeping all the balls in here.
[2:02]Well, then, I mean, your topic is perfect.
[2:04]It's like you've channeled your life into your work.
[2:06]So that's always the best way to go about anything.
[2:08]Talk about baby unplugged, what it's about, you know,
[2:12]the quest for to sort through all the technological baggage
[2:16]that comes being parents.
[2:19]So my husband, Dave, is in the tech world.
[2:21]We live in San Francisco for a while.
[2:23]He worked at a startup and another one.
[2:25]And he just loves technology.
[2:27]There's like, he likes strapping things on his body and monitoring
[2:30]various data points of sleep and calories and whatever else.
[2:34]And none of it really phased me until my older daughter,
[2:37]who's now five was born.
[2:38]And then all of these gadgets started popping up in the nursery.
[2:42]And this one was going to monitor her heart rate.
[2:43]And this one was going to monitor sleep.
[2:45]And it was going to spit all this data back.
[2:47]And it all purported to make parents calm and unanxious.
[2:51]And it drove me up the wall.
[2:52]So I wrote an article just sort of loosely investigating
[2:56]the essay, intersection of parenting and technology.
[2:59]And it was like honestly very surprised
[3:01]that the amount of parents who reached out to me
[3:03]and were like, oh my god, we're grappling with the same thing.
[3:06]And we don't know what the right answer is.
[3:07]And like, if we put our kid in front of a screen,
[3:09]is that horrible and is it OK?
[3:11]And can we cut ourselves some slack or whatever?
[3:13]And so I started researching.
[3:15]And the journey is very personal.
[3:18]I started writing when Ella was my older daughter
[3:20]was three and submitted the manuscript.
[3:22]And she was around five.
[3:24]And I am now in the thick of it again with the third bid.
[3:27]There's just a lot of data thrown at parents.
[3:29]There's a lot of conflicting headlines out there.
[3:32]And so I sort of wanted to use my journalistic expertise
[3:36]for a very selfish reason, which is to figure out
[3:38]what how do you use technology in a successful way?
[3:42]I guess you could say, wrote this and proved my husband wrong.
[3:46]But that retching around home.
[3:48]But at the end of it, it's a memoir.
[3:50]It's a story about being a parent.
[3:51]And there is a lot of reporting mixed in there.
[3:54]My hope, honestly, is that it's an enjoyable read
[3:56]for people and that there's actionable takeaways for sure.
[3:59]But that it's kind of comforting
[4:01]to know that there are other people that are in your shoes
[4:02]when you're in this kind of blier-reide state with young kids.
[4:06]No, I love it.
[4:07]And you have such a relatable voice and tone.
[4:10]It's immediately disarming.
[4:12]And I also, by the way, had the sleep alarm with the red light
[4:16]and the green light.
[4:17]And it never worked.
[4:18]And I have a whole closet full of maimed traffic lights
[4:22]that I can't bear to throw them away.
[4:27]And yet I can't keep them out any longer
[4:29]because they make my blood boil.
[4:31]Because it's a blinking light of my own failure.
[4:33]So I mean, these guys are all looking for help.
[4:35]We all need help.
[4:36]And so it can come in a million different forms
[4:39]when it comes in the form of technology.
[4:40]You're like, oh, great.
[4:41]I'll just plug it in.
[4:42]And then the kid will sleep through the night or whatever.
[4:45]It's like, no, they're humans.
[4:46]They're going to get up if we're in the morning
[4:48]and ask to have a snack regardless of what
[4:51]life tells them to do.
[4:53]It's also, it's changed so much.
[4:54]Like I have twins who are 14 and then an eight-year-old
[4:58]and an almost seven-year-old.
[4:59]And the technology between those kids changed so much.
[5:04]So I'm sure between my seven-year-old and your baby, baby,
[5:08]there's a whole new set of things.
[5:11]A lot of sensors you strap to their body
[5:14]or sheets that can sense what their weight is
[5:18]and when they're moving, it's kind of miraculous stuff.
[5:20]But I guess my quest was to figure out
[5:23]if we really needed to go to that extreme level
[5:26]or what we were really getting out of it.
[5:28]At the end of the short answer is no, correct?
[5:30]And you know why you're doing it.
[5:34]There's wonderful time out there.
[5:35]But for me personally, the aggravating thing
[5:39]is there no right answers.
[5:40]Obviously as any parent knows what works with your first kid
[5:43]will not work with your second kid, even within a family.
[5:46]So there isn't a one-only one takeaway.
[5:49]But for me, ultimately, the trackers and all that stuff
[5:53]made me more anxious and sort of gave me too much information.
[5:57]And I found it very hard to look away.
[5:59]And I ultimately just went to my pediatrician
[6:01]and one of the best pieces of advice I got when I got pregnant
[6:03]was pick a rabbi.
[6:04]My friend was like, just pick one person
[6:06]and just go to that person, don't go to 19 people
[6:09]or 35,000 people on your mom's group.
[6:12]Like pick one person that you've crossed.
[6:14]And he said he was like, we wouldn't let the kid out
[6:16]of the hospital if we had to monitor this level of data
[6:20]in this detail.
[6:21]And so I sort of tried to take that to heart, I guess, yeah.
[6:24]I just think there's so much that you're out of,
[6:26]so much that's out of your control, right?
[6:28]And knowledge is power.
[6:29]And it's like, you feel like if you can just,
[6:32]I mean, I know I'm like regurgitating like you basically
[6:34]set yourself, but having markers, having more data
[6:38]on something that is such a confounding thing in your life.
[6:42]Like you don't even know who your kids are
[6:44]at the beginning, like who are they gonna turn into?
[6:46]What are their personalities?
[6:47]Like, you know, you're like bobbing and weaving all the time.
[6:50]Like, so even though like, you know,
[6:53]I don't know, oxygen levels make no difference.
[6:56]At least it's something you know.
[6:58]And you can control it or you think you can control it.
[7:01]And you know, it is absolutely so much about control
[7:04]and part of the journey of the book was me thinking,
[7:06]okay, I can control my kid in a certain way
[7:08]and realizing I had to learn to be out of control,
[7:11]which I think a very big lesson that you learn
[7:14]in the first few years of your kid's life.
[7:15]It's like every idea that you had is gonna go out the window
[7:18]the minute the kid enters the room.
[7:20]And you could do everything in your power
[7:22]to make him go to bed at a certain time
[7:23]or weigh a certain thing or grasp a ball at a certain,
[7:26]or whatever the marketers are telling you to do.
[7:28]And you're sleep deprived and you don't have to support
[7:30]you need and all of the things that all of us parents
[7:32]go through every day.
[7:34]But ultimately it's like learning to trust your gut
[7:36]a little bit and to let go of this need
[7:39]to make things work that are out of your control.
[7:42]I also think not everybody is super technologically adept
[7:46]anyway, right?
[7:47]Like for me, like when they came out with a nursing tracker
[7:50]or whatever else, you know, like you had to like put in
[7:53]like right boob, left boob, the whole thing.
[7:55]I was like, I was fine with a pad of paper
[7:57]and a pen occasionally writing it down, right?
[7:59]That worked for me.
[8:01]Like now I'm learning something else.
[8:02]Like I'm learning my kid.
[8:04]I'm learning what it is to be a mom.
[8:05]And now I'm having a master 57 devices.
[8:07]Like I could barely get the sleep monitor to wear a kid out.
[8:10]So there's like graphs and trackers and it's all very sexy.
[8:17]You know, it's very appealing in a certain way.
[8:22]But what I realized is there is a point at which
[8:25]there's too much information and why are we collecting
[8:27]that information.
[8:28]You know, I had to miss one of my second daughter's
[8:32]doctors' appointments when they have a way in.
[8:34]And I was like, what should I do?
[8:35]And he was like, just take her to a grocery store
[8:37]and stick her on a scale.
[8:38]Like scale.
[8:39]You're really with all you need to do.
[8:40]It's like literally took her to the grocery store
[8:41]and put her in the thing with like the onion peels and stuff.
[8:45]That's like, she weighs in my mouth.
[8:46]He's like great.
[8:47]But I was like, okay, great.
[8:49]So we don't need to be, you know, I do think some parents
[8:53]really do get a lot of calm out of this.
[8:55]And you know, I think that there's something to say to that.
[8:59]I also think that it's very, they're very outside cases
[9:02]where you need to be tracking certain things
[9:04]at this level of minutiae, you know?
[9:06]I also sort of second your approach to talking
[9:08]to the pediatrician.
[9:09]My pediatrician's amazing and she had four kids.
[9:11]She has four kids herself.
[9:13]And every stuff and I'd be like, you know, I'm so sorry to ask.
[9:15]And she was like, you realize you're the person who
[9:17]asks me things the least of like every other family.
[9:20]I'm like, really?
[9:21]I feel like I'm bothering you all the time.
[9:22]And she's like, people talk to me constantly.
[9:25]And so I feel like don't feel bad.
[9:27]That's the person not to overwhelm pediatricians who are
[9:30]already completely overwhelmed.
[9:32]But you know, better off somebody who actually knows your child
[9:35]too.
[9:35]Well, you know, you know, your child knows how they're
[9:38]going to respond, how you're going to respond to information.
[9:40]It's like, you know, it's very hard to not scroll around
[9:43]on the internet when your kid has a rash.
[9:46]But it's like just send the picture to the doctor.
[9:48]Yeah, don't crowdsource that kind of information.
[9:50]Just do it totally, 100%.
[9:53]So tell me about your career because you've had such an
[9:57]interesting career.
[9:57]You were like a lion cook at white grammar.
[10:00]See, Tavern, is that right?
[10:01]And like food writer and all this.
[10:04]And now you're doing this.
[10:05]So tell me and what happened after college?
[10:08]After college, I was working a job at a nonprofit
[10:11]and I was living in home and saving money.
[10:13]And I was in New York City.
[10:15]And so I would find myself after a day of sitting
[10:18]and doing office work, just like needing
[10:20]to make something concrete.
[10:23]That's why I would come home and cook.
[10:24]And I would like make a chicken for my parents.
[10:27]And I didn't know what I was doing,
[10:28]but it felt really tangible.
[10:29]And I really enjoyed it.
[10:30]And I actually had also read right after college,
[10:33]built B for its heat.
[10:34]I haven't talked about it in a long time,
[10:35]but he wrote about you going to Italy
[10:37]and meeting Rivetali and where do you write a time cooking?
[10:40]And I sounded like just so wonderful and appealing to me.
[10:44]And so I ended up going to culinary school in New York
[10:46]in the evening.
[10:47]So I was working during the day until about six.
[10:49]And then I would go to culinary school from six to 10
[10:51]at night with my chef's bag and like come home sweaty
[10:54]and disgusting and then like go and do it again.
[10:56]And I found I really loved the kind of tangible quality
[10:59]of cutting an onion really quickly
[11:01]and like learning how to do things that were not cerebral.
[11:04]And so after culinary school,
[11:06]I got a job in Grammarcy Tavern.
[11:08]Essentially in the stories that I was there to like cut bread
[11:11]and like watch everybody.
[11:13]And that my first day somebody called in sick
[11:15]who was working the line and they literally were like,
[11:17]you, can you, can you do this?
[11:19]I was like, I don't know.
[11:21]And so I started cooking the appetizers at Grammarcy Tavern
[11:24]during lunchtime.
[11:26]And it was so much fun.
[11:27]It was like you get in adrenaline high from cooking
[11:29]and they're all like, it's like this dance between you
[11:31]and everybody else.
[11:33]And so I did that for a while.
[11:34]And I realized that what I really wanted to do was write
[11:37]about it because it was such an appealing kind of underbelly
[11:40]of society and everything that Anthony Bourdain had written
[11:42]about that was so compelling was like I was seeing it.
[11:46]So I would go home and like take notes after after work.
[11:49]And I ended up getting a job as a food reporter
[11:51]in San Francisco at the Chronicle.
[11:53]I had moved out there because my now husband and boyfriend
[11:56]got a job in Silicon Valley.
[11:57]So I was like, okay, we'll go and we'll get that a shot.
[11:59]And so I ended up being a beat reporter in the food section.
[12:02]And I took the little pool cars out and interviewed chefs
[12:05]and wrote about farmers and Brussels sprouts and avocados
[12:08]and all that stuff.
[12:10]And then came back to New York.
[12:11]I was I'm a native New Yorker and was very homesick.
[12:13]And so I came back and got a job as an editor at Saver,
[12:17]which is a bovabic food publication and was there
[12:20]for like a couple of students and freelancing
[12:21]for a couple of students.
[12:22]And after I don't know, it's probably
[12:25]a close to a decade of writing about food.
[12:28]I got tired of writing about Brussels sprouts.
[12:31]And my daughter was born.
[12:32]And I got very, very interested in all things
[12:35]panaging related because they become your universe.
[12:38]And so I started pivoting to writing a little bit about Ella
[12:42]and using her as a subject.
[12:44]And using my husband as a foil to me.
[12:47]And so the book kind of came out very naturally out of things
[12:50]that I was very personally invested in and very interested in.
[12:53]So it's a bit of a circuitous route,
[12:55]but it sort of makes sense.
[12:58]I love that.
[12:58]I totally love that.
[12:59]I'm also a native New Yorker and spent a couple years
[13:01]in California and had to return as well.
[13:03]So there are amazing things about California.
[13:06]I just miss the greediness of New York.
[13:08]Yeah.
[13:09]Every so often, I was just there for a month.
[13:11]And I'm like, OK, I think I'm like getting ready.
[13:13]Like I miss the real world, right?
[13:15]It just doesn't feel real.
[13:15]It's too nice.
[13:16]It's too easy.
[13:17]It's like, you know, what I balance all of that.
[13:21]That's good.
[13:23]That is an erotic and crazy.
[13:24]Exactly.
[13:26]Where are my people?
[13:29]Oh, my gosh.
[13:30]So do you still cook?
[13:31]Like do you ever cook for fun anymore?
[13:33]Have you sort of cooked?
[13:35]Ask me that in a few months when it's
[13:37]I don't have a six-week gold.
[13:38]But yes, during the pandemic, I
[13:40]could get an enormous amount.
[13:41]And it was fun to get Ellen involved.
[13:43]It's like a great activity, like the measuring of the things.
[13:46]I'm not actually a good baker.
[13:47]So that's like making cookies is her dream.
[13:50]She loves making cookies.
[13:51]You can send her to me for that.
[13:52]And I can send my kids to you for the cooking,
[13:54]because I can bake anything.
[13:56]But I am not as good as cooking at all.
[13:59]I don't have some directions, which is really
[14:01]what you need to do.
[14:02]I like to experiment.
[14:03]I'm experimenting with baking soda.
[14:05]It's just like then you won't be the right cookie.
[14:07]You're the right piece of bread.
[14:08]No, I might give me the rules.
[14:10]And that is exactly what I will do.
[14:12]And now here is my deliverable.
[14:14]Thank you very much.
[14:15]I like the throw things into a pot and see what will happen.
[14:18]But yes, I cook as much as I can, which right now is not at all.
[14:22]But hopefully there is an end in sight
[14:24]when more than three hours of uninterrupted sleep
[14:27]is there.
[14:28]I know what's there.
[14:29]We did it twice before.
[14:30]So I hope that it's going to come, but we're not there yet.
[14:34]But the baby phase is so yummy.
[14:36]I'm kind of jealous of that little tiny.
[14:38]Oh, my God.
[14:39]And the mother clothes, even.
[14:42]Virgin is just, it's fantastic.
[14:43]They're skin.
[14:45]Anyway, there we go.
[14:46]Anyway, I'm about to invite myself over.
[14:49]I'm going to come next.
[14:50]Snatch your child.
[14:54]So what next?
[14:55]You have this book, which is amazing.
[14:57]You have a full family life.
[14:59]Are you getting like what is this the dream?
[15:02]What's like the grand plan?
[15:03]Or are we just going to stay in the moment
[15:05]like we're supposed to?
[15:06]Grand plan, I can't think more than three hours in advance
[15:10]at this point, but actually during the pandemic,
[15:12]I started working on a book proposal for book number two,
[15:16]which fingers crossed, you know, might happen.
[15:18]But I lived with my parents for the first time in a long time
[15:21]during the pandemic because it was kind of like so crazy
[15:23]and obviously I drove everybody up the wall,
[15:26]but also it was incredible.
[15:28]And you know, my kids got to really spend time
[15:30]with their grandparents, like my grandparents seemed
[15:33]to my parents seem to like shed 10 years, you know,
[15:36]every time, every hour they spent my kids.
[15:38]There was childcare that was built in.
[15:40]Everybody was really happy in a lot of ways
[15:42]and then it got very, you know,
[15:44]it's complex having multiple dynamics in a household
[15:47]when you're used to having your own household
[15:49]and they're on households.
[15:50]So I started kicking around this idea of the nuclear family,
[15:54]which really was completely exploded during the pandemic
[15:57]as if, you know, nobody thought it really worked,
[16:00]but it really didn't work during the pandemic.
[16:02]I'm sort of considering alternatives to it.
[16:05]And when I started poking around,
[16:07]I thought there would be a lot of hippie-dippy,
[16:09]commune, and patchouli-cented sort of, you know,
[16:13]people that I'd be interviewing and in fact,
[16:15]there are a lot of really fascinating kind of antidotes
[16:19]to the nuclear family that are communal,
[16:21]but are not at all off the grid that are very much, you know,
[16:24]speaking of my first book, very much,
[16:26]tech-rooted in technology as ways of helping people
[16:30]of building-wide systems that bring people together
[16:33]that sort of combat loneliness and specifically help parents.
[16:36]And so I'm sort of in the thick of researching
[16:39]and reporting that and seeing what comes of it.
[16:41]But again, this is a very, very personal subject.
[16:44]You know, I had a third baby on the horizon.
[16:46]I was like, we're not gonna have enough hands for all kids.
[16:50]What are we gonna do?
[16:51]I'm not gonna move back in with my parents.
[16:52]They were wonderful.
[16:54]And I actually only live eight bucks on them in the city.
[16:56]So they're very integral to my kid's life into my life,
[16:59]which is just a blessing,
[17:00]but I didn't even realize it was gonna be such a blessing.
[17:03]But that's what I'm considering that what I'm doing now.
[17:06]I'm writing a bit for the Guardian
[17:08]and, you know, seeing this book,
[17:09]A See the Light of Day, which has been a really fun
[17:13]and crazy journey, like particularly throwing in the pandemic,
[17:16]which hit like a week after my manuscript was due.
[17:19]Oh my gosh.
[17:20]Though it was like, you know, an interesting time
[17:23]to have considered all of these stuff about technology
[17:26]when it became such a central part of everybody's lives.
[17:29]You know what I mean?
[17:30]I'm like, yes.
[17:31]You should write for a mom's and every time to write,
[17:32]we have this like personal essay site,
[17:34]awesome new information or whatever, but we do.
[17:36]Please do.
[17:37]That's awesome.
[17:38]Just, is there one piece of technology
[17:41]that you were like, this one, this is worth it?
[17:45]It's a good question.
[17:46]I should have a quippy answer to that, which I don't.
[17:49]I think, I guess I really should have an answer to that.
[17:54]I don't have an answer.
[17:54]I think ultimately that analog things for me
[17:58]ended up really being the things that I needed around.
[18:01]Like, you can't read too much to your kid.
[18:04]There's a very little that's more enjoyable
[18:06]than snuggling up with your kid and reading a book.
[18:08]And you can't do that 24 hours a day
[18:10]and like, Ella watched frozen 9,000 times.
[18:13]No, I'm a dynamic.
[18:14]I'm not a saint, but I think, you know,
[18:17]kind of like airing on the side of boredom
[18:20]and like letting the kids find creativity by themselves
[18:23]is like really a better thing to do
[18:24]than be constantly enriching them,
[18:26]which is kind of what this technology feels
[18:29]is this idea of like not letting any moment go by
[18:32]without giving them some input.
[18:34]And in fact, all the science says,
[18:36]that's not really the right way
[18:38]or the most beneficial way to raise a kid.
[18:40]So yeah, we got this new for research purposes
[18:44]and like it was amazing.
[18:46]Yes, it was amazing, but it also brought up a lot of questions
[18:49]for me about, you know, why are we outsourcing, rocking,
[18:53]right, do a device and like it can be incredibly helpful.
[18:57]But like, what does it mean about the bigger state of things?
[18:59]So that's a convoluted answer that I will, what's okay?
[19:02]You work on that.
[19:03]You can email me the answer and last question.
[19:07]What advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[19:09]I would find a cheering team, maybe one person,
[19:14]maybe multiple people that can be kind of in your corner
[19:18]when you're writing things and you think you're never going
[19:21]to either publish the thing
[19:22]or get to the end of the sentence or whatever.
[19:24]And I was lucky enough to have multiple people in my life,
[19:28]a very close friend who was a first reader who basically
[19:31]was like, just throw me anything and we can bad ideas
[19:33]about back and forth.
[19:34]My father's a writer.
[19:35]He took a million walks in the park
[19:37]and he can miss Mater greater with me about everything.
[19:40]Find somebody to tell you that what you're writing is worth it
[19:43]and that, you know, no thought is too small
[19:46]and that every sentence on the page is getting you one step closer
[19:50]to the end of whatever it is that you're writing.
[19:52]I mean, that was critical to me.
[19:53]I could not have done it without the support of my network.
[19:56]I think we should also throw back in your earlier statement,
[20:00]that you'd just like to throw a bunch of stuff in a pot
[20:02]and see what happens.
[20:02]Because I think that could also be good writing advice.
[20:05]There's light, free, free associate.
[20:07]I believe this book started as an email to a friend,
[20:11]just like thoughts, random thoughts, bullet points.
[20:13]And then like, if you know what becomes something,
[20:15]it takes a while, but you can get there.
[20:17]You can do it.
[20:18]I love it.
[20:19]So great.
[20:20]Awesome.
[20:20]Well, congratulations again on your baby
[20:23]and your book, baby, and everything else
[20:26]in this very exciting time of your life.
[20:28]So hang in there.
[20:30]So I'm going to talk to you soon.
[20:31]You too.
[20:32]All right, take care.
[20:33]Bye-bye.
[20:34]Bye-bye.
[20:36]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[20:38]Don't have time to read books.
[20:39]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at ZB Owens,
[20:42]and at Moms Don't have time to read books.
[20:44]Also sign up for my newsletter at zBowens.com
[20:47]and sign up for my virtual book club
[20:48]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[20:51]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound
[20:54]for the Sound Editing.
[20:55]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[20:57]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.