Ruth Ozeki, THE BOOK OF FORM AND EMPTINESS: A Novel
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[0:37]Ruth O'Zeckey is the author of the book of form and emptiness. She's a novelist filmmaker and Zen Buddhist priest
[0:44]She's the award-winning author of three novels including my year of meets all of her creation and a tale for the time being
[0:50]Which was a finalist for the 2013 Booker Prize her nonfiction work includes a memoir
[0:55]The face a time code and the documentary film having the bones
[1:00]She is affiliated with the everyday Zen foundation and teaches creative writing at Smith College where she is a grace
[1:05]Jarco Ross 1933 professor of humanities
[1:09]Welcome Ruth. Thank you so much for coming on momstone have time to read books to discuss the book of form and emptiness
[1:15]Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here. What a powerful amazing read this was. Oh my gosh like
[1:22]So cool on so many different levels like so meta. So it just so it was awesome
[1:28]Thank you. What you tell us near is what your book is about and then I'll dive into my
[1:32]Sure, sure. Yes. Well, it's it tells the story of a young boy named Benny
[1:37]Oh and when Benny is 12 years old his father dies in a you know
[1:42]tragic and really kind of avoidable and stupid accident automobile accident
[1:47]He's actually run over by a truck and Benny witnesses this witnesses his father's death and is you know
[1:54]Really quite traumatized by it and during the funeral
[1:58]He hears his father's voice calling his name
[2:02]All right, and then subsequently for about the year afterwards
[2:05]He occasionally hears his dad's voice
[2:07]But the story really picks up after that when he starts to hear not just his father's voice
[2:13]But he starts to hear the voices of things in his house objects speaking not necessarily to him
[2:19]But you know expressing themselves and these are sort of random objects
[2:23]I mean like a sneaker or a pencil or a Christmas ornament or you know a piece of wilted lettuce in the refrigerator and
[2:29]And sometimes he doesn't understand what they're saying
[2:33]But he understands a kind of feeling tone that the objects
[2:37]You know seem to have and so needless to say this is troublesome to him and particularly when
[2:42]The voices follow him out of the house and you know all the way to school and he ends up getting in in trouble at school
[2:49]Because of this he gets sent to a school nurse who then refers him to a child psychologist and and so he you know
[2:57]He's diagnosed with you know
[2:59]With a mental illness and is medicated
[3:02]So it this starts a whole you know a whole story about the way that children's mental illnesses are treated
[3:09]Benny in any case, you know
[3:10]Decides on his own that school is no longer an option and so he runs away to the local public library
[3:18]and needs a whole cast of characters there who
[3:21]In various ways help him one of them is a Slovenian
[3:25]Homeless Slovenian poet philosopher named the bottle man
[3:29]And another is a young beautiful performance artist who he falls in love with of course another character is the character of the book itself
[3:38]His book right and his book is is starts to talk to him and
[3:42]Starts to tell his life story
[3:44]So the narrator of the book of form an emptiness is the book of form an emptiness and I think that's probably what you meant when you
[3:51]Talked about a kind of meta. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
[3:55]That's exactly what I meant
[3:56]So these these characters kind of help Benny find his own voice ultimate life and you know learn to live with all of the voices that he hears
[4:04]Well, I wanted to read two passages from when the importance of books and why the book is actually talking and all of that which I found so fascinating and
[4:14]Like just so neat to be the reader then right because now all of a sudden the reader is a character in the book as well
[4:21]Exactly exactly and and that was the fun part of writing this because of course a book is also a talking thing a book is a talking object
[4:29]Right and so if you're reading a book you are listening to an object speak to you
[4:33]So yes exactly the reader becomes a character and and sort of is brought into the world of the book
[4:40]Yeah, which was so neat and so original which I just love
[4:43]Let's see which one
[4:45]Maybe this part. Well, that was also well
[4:47]This is just the first words of a book are of utmost importance the moment of encounter when a reader turns to that first page and reads those
[4:54]Opening words
[4:54]It's like locking eyes or touching someone's hand for the first time and we feel it too books
[4:59]Don't have eyes or hands
[5:00]It's true
[5:01]But when a book and a reader are meant for each other both of them know it
[5:04]And this is what happened when Annabelle opened tidy magic when she read the first sentence a shiver in down both their spines
[5:11]That is awesome. I love that so much. Oh my god. It's fine. It's right
[5:17]Right that was just so
[5:19]So good and then I thought there was something else. Oh has it ever occurred to you that books have feelings
[5:24]Two as you listen to this romantic tale of two ill-fated lovers
[5:28]You ever stuff to wonder about what it feels like for us because in truth if skin marks the border
[5:33]Where an eye ends and you begins and in these moments of impassioned boundary crossing called love
[5:39]We envy you. It's that simple. We envy your bodies. How can we not books have bodies too?
[5:44]But ours lack the organs needed to experience the world
[5:47]The skin that covers our boards and encloses our words is different from yours
[5:52]Our skin whether made from paper or parchment or cloth or these days some combination plastic glass and metal
[5:57]Fulfills a similar function of marking our perimeters
[6:00]But even most haptic and capacitive of our skins cannot experience pleasure the way yours can
[6:06]We cannot feel the ecstasy the merging of self and other
[6:10]This is like the I mean it's just the bullets like
[6:14]So how what made you think about it in this way and I spent a lot of time thinking about books
[6:19]So I think this is why this is like so interesting. Yeah, absolutely
[6:23]I don't know if you have you read elephant and piggy these children's books
[6:26]I haven't no
[6:27]Okay, this is so such a random thing
[6:29]But there's one called we are in a book right and the characters are like we're in a book like wait the book ends and no
[6:37]And they're like we're on page 87. Oh, no, no, we're on page like 92. It's going too fast
[6:42]So it's like you're you're aware. I love that. I love that. Yes exactly
[6:46]No, and I think we hold anybody who reads books and loves books knows that feeling of being in a book being in a book
[6:53]So thoroughly and completely that you know and you you you know
[6:58]I mean with a physical book
[6:59]You know you're turning the pages and you know you're getting closer to the end and there's that feeling of panic
[7:04]You know do I read faster or do I slow down?
[7:07]You know so that kind of boundary crossing is something
[7:10]I think that all readers understand you know that that what happens when you fall into
[7:15]You know you just fall into the you know in my case the fictional world
[7:19]You know of a book. Do you remember a children's book called Harold and the purple crayon?
[7:25]Oh my gosh, I read that all the time
[7:27]Yeah, as much anymore
[7:28]But that was my little my fourth kids like one of his favorite books
[7:31]But yeah, that's what it reminded me to when I was writing this book
[7:34]The idea that Harold is literally drawing his world as he's living
[7:39]You know as he walks into it as he steps into it
[7:42]And that's what's happening with this book too. The book is telling the story as we are you know
[7:48]And readers are
[7:49]Experiencing it right so it's this idea of of you know the the book telling
[7:55]Benny's story and telling itself into being but also telling Benny into being as well
[8:01]So you know you have to ask the question then which comes first the book or the boy right who's telling right and and so that's you know
[8:10]I just playing little games like that amuses
[8:15]And so I think you know but I think that my you know my inspiration comes from you know
[8:21]I think exactly books that I read in childhood because
[8:24]Children's books are filled with animated things right
[8:28]I mean objects are always speaking in children's books, you know
[8:31]They're always behaving and doing things right and so the you know the the sort of world of animated objects was something
[8:39]That you know it's part of the magic of of childhood and I wanted to try to capture that in a kind of an adult format in this book
[8:48]Well, it's true
[8:48]I mean who's to say that that's so crazy right?
[8:52]I mean all of a sudden it becomes crazy like I feel like one of the conclusions and maybe I misread
[8:58]But I felt like one of the conclusions was like well this is just a
[9:02]Part of Benny's life like this doesn't necessarily have to be
[9:07]So terrible like he can learn to live with it and it's okay, and it's interesting
[9:12]And it's just one part of him and that doesn't mean he has to be like at a societal exactly
[9:17]Exactly and if there's one thing that I was really hoping in this I think you read it exactly the way I hoped
[9:24]You know this idea of really expanding
[9:27]What we consider normal to be right and I think that we you know
[9:32]Normal the idea of normal is a social construct, right?
[9:35]And it's completely dependent on you know on the culture that we happen to live in right
[9:40]So if we live in a culture where you know voice hearing is considered to be you know a symptom of you know of a psychosis
[9:47]Then you know that's the way we're going to think of it
[9:50]But it doesn't necessarily have to be and in fact, you know
[9:53]There are far more people who hear voices than you know
[9:57]Then is popularly reported
[10:00]And, and hear voices without any problem at all.
[10:03]You know, in fact, you know, Joan of Arc, you know, her voices were, you know, were divine
[10:08]and, and, you know, were the, her, you know, her guides in life, you know.
[10:12]And, you know, even the fathers of sight, you know, the so-called fathers of psychology,
[10:17]Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung, also reported, you know, reported hearing voices, right.
[10:22]So, you know, the idea that hearing voices signal some kind of, you know, some kind of abnormality,
[10:27]I think is, you know, is a problem. And, and so, you know, in Benny's case, you know,
[10:32]certainly, you know, he just needed to learn how to negotiate and navigate, you know,
[10:37]the voices that he hears. And I think too, you know, as an artist, as a writer, you know,
[10:42]I hear voices all the time, right. I mean, that's, you know, that's where books come from.
[10:47]That's where, you know, that's where characters come from. And in fact, the, you know, the
[10:52]idea for the book kind of came to me after a reading, I was at a public library in Michigan,
[10:58]I think it was. And I was talking to the audience about how characters come to me as voices,
[11:04]right. It's like I hear, not outside my body, but I kind of hear in my mind the voice of a
[11:12]character speaking to me. And then I, you know, sort of write it down and I listen, you know,
[11:17]and I follow that voice where it leads me, right. And afterwards, you know, during the Q&A,
[11:22]a man raised his hand and asked me, you know, when you talk about hearing voices, are you talking
[11:28]about, you know, hearing the voices outside you or, you know, is this more a kind of an internal
[11:33]process? And I explained. And he told me that at that point that his son heard voices,
[11:38]as though they were outside his head, right. And his son found this to be very distressing,
[11:44]which I think, you know, sometimes happens as well. And so anyway, that really got me thinking
[11:49]about the sort of spectrum, I think, that exists between creativity and what we, you know,
[11:55]what we call creativity and what we call madness. Right. And so there's this, I think it's,
[12:00]you know, it's a spectrum. And, you know, it's interesting, I think, to, you know, to look at it that
[12:05]way. Wow. That's really interesting. I mean, there's such a, obviously, the two,
[12:11]dovetail in so many instances. It's hard to, I mean, in all arts, not just literature, like
[12:17]artists and the pervasive sort of myth of the stereotype of the crazy. And that's right.
[12:23]Anyway, that's right. No, no, absolutely. I think that's, and I think that's really important too
[12:27]to recognize. I mean, one of the things I'm grateful for is that I live in a culture
[12:32]that prizes fiction, you know, that actually looks at fiction as something that is valuable
[12:38]rather than a pathology. Right. And I could imagine living in a culture where making things up
[12:45]that aren't real could be looked at as a, you know, as a pathological condition that needs to be,
[12:51]you know, cured or locked up or, you know, but thank goodness we live in a society where
[12:57]making things up is looked at as a positive thing. And, you know, I mean, I actually get paid
[13:03]to do it too. So that isn't that wonderful. Lucky me. But you're right. It's very,
[13:10]the circumstances where it's okay are very clearly donated. And, you know, I don't really
[13:16]write fiction. I really, I like to write nonfiction and essays and, you know, first person stuff.
[13:22]But I did like experiment with writing fiction a few times. And I did find, and I sound,
[13:27]I felt like I was sounding crazy about it. Like I had this long flight where I was writing
[13:34]and my husband, we didn't even talk because I was like, I can't. I'm like, so in this, you know,
[13:38]and then I was explaining to him and I got off the flight and I, and telling him what happened,
[13:42]he's like, what's going to happen next? And I was like, I don't even know. I don't know what they're
[13:45]going to do. You know, I don't even know. Like, I'm so excited to see it. He's like, what are you
[13:50]talking about? Like, I don't know. It's sort of has taken on a life. Exactly. You know, I hate to
[13:56]to break it to you, but it sounds to me like you're a fiction writer. So you might want to explore
[14:03]that or not. But you really are sounding an awful lot like a fiction writer right now.
[14:09]No, that's exactly the experiences that, you know, I don't know where, you know, the stories are
[14:15]going to go. I'm just writing into, you know, kind of into the void and just following the,
[14:21]you know, following the story, you know, where it goes and hoping that it'll take me some place.
[14:27]It's kind of like an act of fate, too, you know, a long time ago, I interviewed somebody.
[14:32]And I took this almost defensively because I asked sort of about where her ideas came from.
[14:36]And she said something like, well, that's just such a bad question because, you know,
[14:40]where do like dreams come from? They just come. And I was like, all right, well, sorry, I don't know.
[14:45]I've done like two podcasts. I'm like, I don't know. I was just wondering, you know, was there
[14:50]any way? I think it's a great question. It's a question I asked myself all the time.
[14:54]I'm always asking myself where, you know, where are these ideas coming from? It's true.
[14:59]I, you know, and I think they do come for, I think they are like dreams. I think they come from
[15:03]the unconscious. And so really the, you know, the way to access them is to, you know, to sort of,
[15:10]you know, tap into the unconscious, do, you know, sort of what relax the controlling editorial
[15:18]and let the unconscious, the kind of playful part of the mind have control, have free reign, right?
[15:26]And I think in a way, you know, we started by talking about, you know, children's, you know,
[15:31]children's books and animation. I think it's the part of our mind that we lose as we get older,
[15:38]that playful part that makes stuff up, you know, that's not afraid of the unknown that, you know,
[15:43]I mean, everything's unknown when you're a child, right? So you just kind of stumble forward into it
[15:48]and keep your eyes open and, you know, I hope that it's just what, what EC is wonderful.
[15:53]And so it was part of this, some sort of referendum on medication for kids.
[15:59]Well, it's something that, you know, that I think a lot about, you know, I was, when I was a
[16:04]child, you know, when I was 14, I was struggling with mental health issues myself. And I was,
[16:10]you know, I was diagnosed and medicated and that really sort of shaped my life for, you know,
[16:15]for a while. And I, you know, this was many, many years ago and, and, you know, psychopharmaceuticals
[16:22]were sort of blunt instruments back then, you know, and I think that, you know, I don't have an
[16:28]opinion about medication. I think it can be, you know, it can be absolutely, you know, very,
[16:33]very helpful, you know, to many people. So it's not like I'm anti-pharmaceutical at all.
[16:39]But I think that, you know, to think that that's the only way of treating what sort of different
[16:45]psychic states, right, psychic states that we look at as being outside of the norm, right,
[16:52]is it shows a certain kind of lack of imagination. And there's so many wonderful programs now
[16:58]that are really, you know, treating, you know, psychological challenges in different ways.
[17:04]There's a book that I've been reading now for a while called The Body Keeps the Score.
[17:09]You're like the fifth person who's told me about this book in the last week. I have to,
[17:13]it's amazing. It's amazing. I read it, you know, I started reading it in 2007 when it came out.
[17:19]And I wasn't really able to kind of get into it. But, you know, I think that the, you know,
[17:26]to be honest, I think the pandemic and, and just everything that's happening in the world
[17:30]has created a kind of social trauma that has made this book very, very relevant. And, in fact,
[17:36]it's right up there on the New York Times bestseller list again, you know, like, I saw that,
[17:41]like many years after its publication, right. And, you know, Bessel van der Kolk, the writer
[17:47]talks about some wonderful, you know, therapies that, you know, would be considered, you know,
[17:53]alternative in the sense that they are not psychopharmaceutical. But he has very strong opinions
[17:59]about psychiatric diagnoses. And they are, you know, they're, he's very, very critical of that.
[18:04]So I think I'm kind of influenced by him right at this point too. But it's very, it's a wonderful
[18:09]book. It's a really wonderful book. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like this. But I have time.
[18:15]What is the book you're looking at now? Oh, you know, I just have started it. So, you know,
[18:20]I'm a little bit loathe to talk about it. But it's another, let me just say that it's a,
[18:26]another kind of intergenerational book about a grandmother and her granddaughter. And, you know,
[18:33]who are sort of thrown together during the lockdown, right. And I think that it might be called
[18:41]something like conversations we will never have. But I'm not sure. It's still early. You reserve
[18:47]the right to change. That's right. That's right. I won't hold you to it. I always change my mind a million
[18:53]dollars. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors? Wow. Well, I would make the distinction
[19:00]between an author and a writer. First of all, you can't be an author until you're a writer.
[19:05]Right. So my, at first advice is to aspire to write. Right. And, you know, I really, I really
[19:12]do think that the author is, is very different than the writer. The author's job is to go out
[19:17]and represent the book. But, you know, the writer's job is to literally pull the book out of
[19:24]nothingness and put it onto the page. Right. And that's, as you, as you have described so beautifully,
[19:30]it's a compelling and exciting, but also a little bit frightening thing. So, you know, if that,
[19:37]if that frightens you, then, you know, I think the trick then is to figure out ways to get over that
[19:43]fear, you know, to work with that fear and to turn that fear into, into energy of some kind. And
[19:48]people have so many different strategies for doing that. Some friends of mine always write in groups,
[19:53]you know, just because, you know, it's sort of like bicycle racing, you know, you can kind of
[19:57]of grasp along with, you know, along with the other.
[20:00]writers, you know, and it holds you accountable.
[20:02]And I think that's one of the hardest things
[20:04]for aspiring writers is being held accountable
[20:06]and feeling like, you know, that somebody's waiting
[20:10]and somebody's waiting for your words
[20:12]and, you know, they really want to read them.
[20:14]So I would also suggest, you know,
[20:16]a writer's group of some kind, you know,
[20:18]some, it can be, it can be anything,
[20:21]but just somebody who, you know,
[20:23]you trade pages with and talk about the process
[20:26]that I think is really helpful.
[20:27]And then the other thing I do is, you know,
[20:30]because sometimes it's hard to find that person,
[20:32]I keep a process journal.
[20:34]And my process journal is like my imaginary friend, you know,
[20:39]and the process journal is unfailingly patient with me,
[20:45]is interested in everything that I think, you know,
[20:50]everything that I, all my ideas, very interested in those,
[20:53]always asks me questions about what it is that I'm, you know,
[20:57]that I'm writing.
[20:58]So when the, you know, when the journal asks me questions,
[21:01]that of course I answer, right?
[21:03]And just the process of answering the questions, right?
[21:06]helps me sort of move along.
[21:08]I can complain to the process, to my process journal,
[21:12]I can, you know, I can brag, I can boast, I can, you know,
[21:16]and the journal is never, you know, critical of me, right?
[21:20]And so this is, you know, it's sort of a relationship
[21:24]that I've developed and I've done this, you know,
[21:25]I've been, I've been keeping a process journal since,
[21:28]I think the mid 90s, right?
[21:30]So, you know, we have a long friendship at this point.
[21:35]Perhaps it's become this book, right?
[21:37]It's like, I don't know.
[21:38]That's right.
[21:39]That's right.
[21:42]Wow. Well, Ruth, thank you so much.
[21:44]This was so fun.
[21:45]And, you know, I really, really enjoyed this book
[21:48]and the innovation and creativity and wherever the voice
[21:53]has led you for this reader, at least, was, was very enjoyable
[21:56]and thought for bookings.
[21:57]Wonderful.
[21:58]Well, thank you so much, Zippy.
[21:59]And I, I look forward to reading your novel.
[22:01]It's a book too.
[22:03]Okay. All right.
[22:05]Thank you.
[22:06]Have a great day.
[22:07]All right.
[22:08]You too.
[22:10]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[22:12]to Read Books.
[22:13]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens
[22:16]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:18]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com
[22:21]And sign up for my virtual book club
[22:23]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[22:25]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[22:28]for the Sound Editing.
[22:29]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[22:31]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.