Helen Russell, HOW TO BE SAD: Everything I've Learned About Getting Happier by Being Sad

[1:19]Zibby Owens: This is Zippy Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. I'm also the host of Moms Don't Have Time to Lose Weight, and I'm the editor of the anthology, which you should run out and buy, called Moms Don't Have Time to A Quarantine Anthology. All proceeds of that book go to COVID nineteen vaccine research. And I'm the editor in chief of Moms Don't Have Time to Write, a new publication on Medium, and we're accepting submissions, so please send your personal essays there. And if all that isn't enough, you can follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and my website is zibbyowens.com. Okay, now back to this amazing podcast. Helen Russell is the author of How to Everything I've Learned About Getting Happier by Being Sad. Helen was formerly the editor of marieclair.co.uk, writes for The Guardian, as well as writing a long standing column for The Telegraph. She now writes for magazines and newspapers around the world, including Stylus, The Observer, The Times, The Sunday Times, Grazia, Metro, Stella and The Eye Newspaper. Her first book, The Year of Living Danishly, Uncovering the Secrets of the World's Happiest Country became an international bestseller and has been optioned for television. She has spent the last eight years studying cultural approaches to emotions and regularly speaks about her work around the world, including at TEDx and in her hugely popular Action for Happiness talks. Helen spent twelve years in London, but currently lives in Jutland, Denmark with her husband and three children. Welcome, Helen. Thank you so much for coming on. Moms don't have time to read books to discuss how to be sad. Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to be here. I was dropping my daughter at school this morning and telling her what I had coming up, she was, like, crying about going to school. I And was like, well, my first book is how to be sad. I was like, oh, maybe this is a good book for you. And she's like, I don't wanna be sad. But anyway.

[3:05]Helen Russell: It's hard. Yeah. I have two sick kids right now. And so it's this it's this whole trying to say it's okay to be feeling like this. This will pass. This is part of life. Yeah. It's an ongoing. I'm sorry about your kids.

[3:17]Zibby Owens: Two at once. That's no fun. Yep. It's busy. Yeah. Well, thank you for taking the time to talk about your book. Okay. So for people who aren't familiar with you and all of your amazing research and work and your bestselling book and, like, all this amazing stuff, can you talk about how to be sad and why you turned the happiness research sort of on its on its side to reposition how to have a more joyous life,

[3:41]Helen Russell: and why it's important to be said? Yeah, absolutely. So I'd spent the last eight years researching into happiness worldwide. And back when we could, I'd go around the world talking about my work and meeting people and interviewing people. And I kept coming across the same question time and again of people who had perhaps lost a loved one or been made homeless or been made redundant, who would still ask, but why? How can I be happy? Why aren't I happy? And it came to me really that actually we are so obsessed with the pursuit of happiness that we are quite phobic of feeling sad. So from a professional perspective, that was that was my route in. And then also from a personal point of view, I I lost my sister when I was young and it was something that back in the 1980s just was not talked about. People didn't talk about grief. People would cross the road to avoid having to make any comment to my mom and me about it. So I had been I had very much grown up with the idea of what we don't talk about can't hurt us. But we know now the science shows that this is wrong. The reverse is true. So I really wanted to address this. Wow. Anyway, in the book, you write about it. You call it the very the very sad thing, all capital letters, and why

[4:45]Zibby Owens: and how this happened. But is there could you share what happened with your sister? Are you willing to talk about it? Yes.

[4:52]Helen Russell: Yeah. So when I was almost three and my sister died of sudden infant death syndrome. So out of the blue, there's nothing anyone could have done. There's nothing that could have have altered. But what could have been different is the way we were people handled it afterwards. So there was no counselling at the time. There was nothing like that. My mom and dad were in despair. They also had this young toddler me to look after. My parents split up soon after just a few months after my dad left and nobody really talked about that either. So this loss, this living loss was something that we had with us as a family forever and something that we just didn't talk about, which I think from from speaking to people, from doing my research seems actually less uncommon than we might think. So many people go through similar experiences. So everyone experiences loss. It won't all have been the same. And I talk about this bereavement, which is when someone dies, but there's also living losses and there's and there's grief and there's grief over losing my dad. I didn't have a relationship with him either. So I was kind of keen to address we've all had stuff happen to us and it's how we process that. And so all of our losses may be varied,

[6:03]Zibby Owens: but the process for getting through them in happier, healthier way is similar. So that's what I've been trying to pursue. Well, I was so struck by image of you as a little girl drawing the picture of your family and having your mom having to tell the teacher, okay. I know she drew a picture of the four of us here, but her sister has passed away and her dad's gone. And you were like, what? He's gone too? You know, what do you mean? It just broke my heart. And your attempts with your dad to, you know, get involved in his new wedding, for example, and wanna wear a tiara. And he's like, no. You're like, what? And you have to deal with, like, the orange backpack guy, like, showing up, dating your mom. And these are, like, a lot of things just, like, right off the bat to have to to cope with on top of loss and oh my gosh. Anyway, you just like immersed us in like the the young version of you, and my heart sort of broke for you immediately and then then have been like rooting for you now, right, with everything. So of course, this is your chosen field. It's like, oh, well, that makes sense.

[7:01]Helen Russell: And actually, therapist pointed that out many years later. That's no surprise at all. I chose to research and write about happiness because I was also scared of being sad. I had no experience with that. So I thought, well, of course, happiness is what we must all be wanting. We've all read studies saying, you know, happier people are healthier, they live longer. But in fact, that's it's not quite the case. This research mostly comes out of The US, which and Americans are outliers in the desire to avoid happiness, avoid sadness, excuse me. So actually being terrified of being sad is what makes us sick. And in East Asian culture or in Japan, where they've done comparisons, we look at that actually you can feel sad and it has no impact on your health. So being sad only makes you sick if you're terrified of being sad. And yeah, as you say, it's this whole this stuff I'd grown up with and the ideas that many of us grew up with, like wanting to be a bridesmaid at my dad's wedding because I'd seen on TV that, you know, the the daughter from the first marriage gets to maybe wear a tiara, maybe ride a pony. That's just what got to happen. And in all the glossy TV we watched growing up, yeah, I got some slightly skewed ideas about the world. Oh my gosh. And of course, there were only like five shows. Right? We all everybody watched the same thing. Right. Yeah.

[8:15]Zibby Owens: Which I kind of miss now because there's like so you know, there's something that sort of bonded everybody at the time. Right? We had, like, the same commercials and the same shows. Anyway. So you also talk in the book about the differences in the different types of depression and the difference between depression and sadness and how we're so quick to say that we're depressed when actually we're feeling sad. Sad is okay. Sad is what we should be feeling. It doesn't mean we have any sort of clinical diagnosis. How do people tell the difference between I'm feeling sad and I should feel sad and I'm feeling depressed or I am depressed?

[8:48]Helen Russell: So this is super interesting and not to minimize depression. I have experienced depression as well throughout the last twenty years, but depression is a chronic mental illness that needs help. But sadness is a temporary emotion that we feel when we have been hurt or something is wrong in our lives. So sadness can be awakening. It's a message that can tell us what's wrong and tell us what to do about it if we listen. And actually, studies show that if we aim to avoid sadness, even just a little to the extent that many of us probably do on a day to day basis, we put ourselves at greater risk of normal sadness tipping into something else. So the actual diagnosis of depression comes from the American Diagnostic Manual for Mental Health, so the DSM, And this focuses on the symptoms rather than the cause. So it doesn't really bear in mind what's happened to you to get to this place where you may be feeling low. And if you meet these five of these nine criteria for more than two weeks, you can get a diagnosis of depression. Now, interestingly, there used to be a grief clause so that you couldn't be diagnosed with depression within two months of a bereavement. But the latest version, the DSM five, got rid of this because, of course, depression is serious and you are going to need help. But it means that it does open the possibility that a lot of normal sadness therefore gets pathologised and therefore gets a clinical diagnosis when maybe it is that we've just lost our spouse or that we have lost our job or been through a global pandemic, just for example. So, yeah, I think it is problematic. It's not as black and white. And all of the I spoke to the best neurologists and geneticists and psychologists, psychiatrists in the world, and they all agree brain science is inexact. There's so much we don't know. So my rallying call really is just to open our minds a little bit and ask what's happened to you rather than what's wrong with you and not write off any kind of medication or talking therapies, but just thinking a little bit more broadly that actually a baseline for all of us has to be around coming to terms with an accepting normal sadness that we will all experience.

[10:49]Zibby Owens: And so why why do we get sad? Like, what is the evolutionary purpose of sadness? Like, I understand anxiety. Right? We're afraid, fight or flight. Like, it was to save our lives. We could run away from animals. We could I know all that stuff. But, like, is the purpose of us crying and feeling like we can't can't get out of bed or, you know, not being able to do anything because we're sad? Like, why why have sadness?

[11:17]Helen Russell: It's such a great question. So the tears part first off. Charles Darwin famously said that there was no purpose in tears at all. But we know now that when we cry, we reduce our levels of cortisol. It soothes us because we are expressing our emotions. And sadness is that emotion that makes us stop in our tracks. It's it's like the ruminating time. It's very much problem solving. It makes us more creative because if we're happy, for example, we carry on doing that same thing to get the happiness. If something is wrong and we feel sad, it's that message to slow down and stop and think about, oh, maybe there's a different way I could be doing things. Sadness. It improves our attention to detail. It makes us fall less prey to the halo effect, whereby we think the beautiful and rich usually can do no wrong and we are less prone to the fundamental attribution error whereby we think people mean the worst towards us. So it makes us much more clear, clear sighted. It increases perseverance. It promotes generosity and makes us feel more connected to the people around us. So we feel sad because it's a time then we need to stop, take stock, think, Okay, maybe there's a different way I could be doing things and to really sort of cement our connections to the people around us. So in that way, it feels hugely useful. It's the time when we should feel most connected to our fellow human beings. And if we're trying to push it down all the time, then then that's a bit of a problem. And the sadness also makes us quite grateful for what we've got. I mean, the philosophers, going back to the Stoics, believed this and research from the University of New South Wales has found that we are more grateful when we're feeling sad. So it's a it's a really helpful emotion for stopping and taking stock, I'd say, which I think roundabout now feels very useful indeed. Interesting.

[12:59]Zibby Owens: Do you think those are like temporary or persistent? Like, can they seep into your personality for good? Like, if I'm sad a lot as a child, will I grow up to be a more grateful person, or am I more grateful in the aftermath of that sadness episode?

[13:15]Helen Russell: That's a great question. So there's there's a couple of things there. So our predisposition to happiness or sadness is down to genetics and early childhood experience and lifestyle. So the first two we can't control largely, but the third we can. So that kind of depends. But there's also looking into antidepressants and what's happening in our brains when we take, for example, SSRIs that they are trying to stop the serotonin from leaving our brain so quickly. And scientists are still not quite sure how antidepressants work. And you think, goodness, after all of these years and all of this money in big pharma and what have you, nobody still quite knows is the answer often. But one theory is that we have these scars in our brain. If we've experienced something, perhaps from a young age or perhaps repeatedly, we get these sort of scars where we are more prone to think in a certain way. I tend to think of them as like doom rivulets in your brain, just sort of like this puddle that goes through, which is it can be a fairly depressing way of thinking about the world. But there is there are some theories around that. But then there's also neuroplasticity that we can we can change our brain and we can learn new things. So there could well be a sense that some people are more prone to this. But I would also add that there is hope. There are things that we can do and that's helpful. I've never heard SSRIs described that way. It's almost like the rainstorm washing away the

[14:31]Zibby Owens: pads in the sand. Right. And then it's like you get a fresh start. Is that what you meant by the rib eye? SSRIs are supposed to help the serotonin stay in. But what's weird is that when you take SSRIs,

[14:41]Helen Russell: they you get the side effects straight away, but you don't get the effects of stopping the serotonin drain away straight away. So something's going on. Yeah, it's just really quite disconcerting when you speak to these enormous brains of geneticists and psychiatrists and they just sort of say, well, shrug a bit. We don't know.

[15:00]Zibby Owens: Oh my word. What hope do the rest of us have? But do they but they're in favor of them, though. I mean, do they say that SSRIs then prohibit those other good things from coming as a result of sadness?

[15:13]Helen Russell: Do know I mean? Like That's interesting. No. I think I think largely the most, I mean, it's to generalise, but I would say the most professionals on caution and would say, you know, stick with what you're doing, but complement it with other things as well. So the neuroscientists I have worked with on the book was Dean Burnett, and he's very much, both and and or and just trying to try everything because there's so much that we still don't know. So I guess if medication is working for someone then they should absolutely stay with it. But for some people medication doesn't work And then you're thinking, okay, well, else can I be doing? And for some people, medication may not be necessary because there are other things we can be doing to accept and understand our normal sadness before we get to that stage.

[15:58]Zibby Owens: Know, I think part of sadness is that it's not even though as you're pointing out, of course, like it has good side effects, if you will. Right? But in the course of a normal day, it's not very socially acceptable. Like, my daughter can't go to school and cry all day because, you she's like, my teacher will get mad. Or you just can't. You can't, like, be productive if you are crying all day. You can't, like, go do your job if you can't get out of bed. You can't so I don't feel like society is particularly well set up for big bouts of sadness at unpredictable times.

[18:08]Helen Russell: I think that's really interesting. I think there's another couple of things there. So firstly, I guess emotional regulation that many of us don't learn as a child that we may have been told if we fall down or you get up again or if we're scared we'll be told, there's nothing to be afraid of. We have our emotions minimised and then we come to almost distrust them as children because we are told what we're feeling is not valid in some way. And it's so easy to do. If a child is set, you're like, oh, don't cry, stop crying. But actually, that might not be the most helpful thing to do despite our inclination to what to make things better for our kids. We love them. So labeling that emotion and helping them understand that granularity of it is really helpful for kids. And if we didn't get that as a child, we can try and do that for ourselves as adults. But you're right, in terms of culturally, yeah, rest and relaxation are not valued in our society. Activity is what is prized. And that is a bigger problem, I think. We don't measure our productivity by how many acres we harvest anymore. So our productivity and the amount of time we spend working becomes a proxy. And that is a problem because perhaps there are some days when we are not going to be most effective. There's lots of interesting research into women's cycles and hormones and what different parts of the month we would be most effective at doing different tasks, which I find fascinating. But again, as you say, it feels sometimes like a luxury. Well, I have to get this done today. But I think there is much room for flexibility and trying to

[19:37]Zibby Owens: adopt a bit more of an understanding approach that would help all of us to be more productive long term. So true. I definitely have, like, I don't know, days where I'm just like, I am too sad to work. I can't get anything done. I can't even deal with my computer. I can't sit at my desk. I am just this this day is is a watch. But then, like, the next day, I have twice as much work to do. So, you know, I don't know. So in terms of big fan of the idea of if if a day is really bad, you go to bed early to get it over with. And then you go, oh, and you got longer the next day. And that's always Yeah. That's always pleasurable. That's always nice if you can do that. What do you think we should tell our kids, or what do the researchers sign in to say? I mean, I I feel like the takeaway I've gotten and that I try to do is instead of saying, oh, you shouldn't be scared necessarily. You're like, I understand. Like, that video must have totally freaked you out. I get it. However, you know, there is no one hiding in the toilet or something like that. You know? Like, so you don't need to be scared because that thing is not happening. But I understand you feel scared because of the video. But maybe that's not the right tactic.

[20:39]Helen Russell: Well, I mean, again, the sort of the researchers and the studies that I have have read are around, again, as you say, it's not minimising it, but it's saying, yeah, that that would be really scary. If there was a monster in the toilet, that would be really scary. Yeah, fair play to you. But, you know, let's look together and I'm glad that you told me about this and and let's think about this. And I think, yeah, trying to put ourselves in the shoes of a child and try and remember what that felt like. I mean, it's it's terrifying. My four year old right now has chickenpox, which they vaccinate for in The US and I'm so envious, but she's just miserable. Life feels awful. And so it's reminding her like, yeah, that does suck right now. You won't feel like that forever. I know this is awful and I'm really sorry about that. It's it's sort of sitting with that pain, which I I do think and then thinking back to to ourselves as children, I do think that is really helpful and would have helped you feel quite comforted

[21:32]Zibby Owens: in that time. Yeah. I feel like well, I'm so sorry about the chickenpox. I had the chickenpox. It's the worst thing ever. Oh my gosh. But at least it's over with at an early age. It gets worse as they get older. Yeah, I I think that the pandemic for kids in particular has been so hard. And I think, you know, I have two, you know, two 14 year olds, and then I have an eight year old and a six year old. And the little guys, like, because of all this Zoom school and all these, like, optional things, like, don't they don't buy it that school is essential. You know? Like, it feels like an option. Whereas the older kids and everybody else and, like, people our age or whatever, like, it's it's not a question. Of course, nothing changes school. But now they're like, after a year and a half of like, this week is remote. This week is not remote. It's very hard to be like, no. No. School is is required. And even as a parent, it's like, what do you even do with that? Like, of course, you're sad. You'd rather be sitting on your computer, like, hanging out with the dog. Like

[22:24]Helen Russell: so it's hard. That is a tough one. Yeah. Feeling things are optional because of the last eighteen months, everything's felt slightly optional. Yeah, it's tough and it's really tough. And that kind of, you know, that connection and the whole I think you often want to go to school, for example, to see your peers. And everyone's been lacking that connection over the last eighteen months, which is so hard as well, especially at formative age. Oh my gosh. No. Your book could not come at a better time, which is, you know, good for you, I guess. Wait. So tell tell

[22:52]Zibby Owens: me about the process of the writing and the research and and how you decided to structure the book because you have, you know, your own history and then you and you tell it in a very narrative way, but then you mix it up with the experts and, you know, just how did you arrive at this particular, you know, way to package up this content? And did you debate other ways and all of that? Well, my thing is I often

[23:15]Helen Russell: when I read a lot of fiction, I read a lot of nonfiction. Whenever I read nonfiction, I sometimes writing is very good and very funny and everything. But there's no soul and there's no heart and there's no narrative arc and there's no why do I care? Well done, you're being very funny and witty, but why do I care? And so for me, as a reader and as a writer, it's really important to have a story go somewhere. And it happens that my life in this case is a story that has gone somewhere. So I think I wanted to be honest about my own experiences because I can't ask other people to do that if I'm not willing to do it myself. And also because part of my big kind of manifesto is shaking off the shame sadness and apologizing for how we're feeling, which is something we're really good at in The UK. But just the idea, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm crying or sorry for pouring out of this emotion that actually that's not that helpful. So I felt that I wanted to share to encourage others to do the same. That has been a really interesting response that people have got in touch and shared their own stories very personal often. But I also want there to be the science there as well. I am not a scientist, am a journalist. And so for me, it was really important to speak to as many experts as I could and then bring in some names from popular culture and some people who I've admired for a long time who I think have dealt with interesting things in ways that we might not have expected. I've got someone who was addicted to drugs for many years. I've got people who've been through bereavements, trying to really understand the different experiences that I may not have had so that I can sort of offer those up as well and try and understand the things that underpin all of them, because there are some universals that I think we could all benefit from.

[24:58]Zibby Owens: And then when did you decide to start your podcast How to Be Said? Which, by the way, I listened to. And I was like, oh, I love how she did her introduction. And I'm like, how can I change my introduction? I don't know. Maybe I need like this cool British voice that you have going here. I will happily

[25:13]Helen Russell: see the book I really wrote before COVID nineteen and then finished finished off the final edit after during the first lockdown, actually. But during the lockdown, oh my goodness, well, missed people. I mean, as you must have found also, it's just I just that is part of what gives me energy is talking to people and having long form conversations and meeting new people. I just hadn't done it. I mean, got a new neighbour I was so giddy with excitement at meeting someone new. I thought, I can't put all of this on this poor guy who just moved in next door. So I thought, I know I'll start a podcast. And it felt like because the book was coming out, it felt like I had something behind me to just say it's not just that I'm just being incredibly curious, it's let's carry on this conversation. And so that's been really interesting and speaking to people from all walks of life and it's a great excuse to say, actually, I've always wanted to speak to that person and let's have a conversation. Totally. Totally. To just get an hour with someone is just it's a real privilege. So that's been fascinating. And, yeah, we just started series three and had some amazing guests like Desmond Tutu's granddaughter and daughter. And, yeah, I've got a rock star coming up this week. So, yeah, it's it's a lot of fun. Wow. Okay. Well, this is now my new favorite podcast, so I'm very excited. I'm super interested in all of the stuff you're doing. I was, a psychology major, but just from a personal standpoint, like, I find this research and all of it just so completely fascinating. And the fact that you sort of explore this underexplored area, I found to be just, like, you know, and the way you did it, too, was really, really great. So like what what have you been sad about lately? That's a great question. Well, I still miss friends and family, so things are opening up a little bit where I am. I live in Denmark right now, and so I'm getting to see family a bit, but not much. I mean, there's people I haven't seen for two years now and that's really hard. And, you know, best friends and my kids are not growing up near the people who we thought were only an hour's plane ride away. Suddenly that distance really stretches when you can't get to people. And, you know, life is hard. I think that's what really taught me a lot as well, is that I started researching into happiness and I tried to live Danishly and I tried to adopt all of these happiness principles. But at the core, it's it's about connections like Our personal relationships are one of the key indicators of happiness worldwide. So if those parts are compromised, that's a massive hurdle. And that's something that is an ongoing process of trying to work on and trying to build that up again. So I have lovely friends near where I am now, but I think I I'm missing people and and those personal connections quite a lot right now. I'm sorry. I totally know how you feel. And

[27:50]Zibby Owens: wait. Your so your year the the year of living Danishly, your bestselling book prior to this is now a TV show or it's in the works or something. Tell me about that. It's So,

[28:00]Helen Russell: you know, TV land. Who knows? It will have a lot of meetings where people say nice things. So we shall see. Got it. And what is your next project going to be? Well, I'm very interested. I'm researching and writing a little bit about Hans Christian Andersen, the great fairy tale guy. So I'm looking into that right now and speaking to a few people about some other radio projects. Yes, we'll still see. Maybe that can be a subtitle. The great fairytale guy.

[28:27]Zibby Owens: That guy. Yeah, that guy. Big hat. Fine. I love it. So what advice would you have for aspiring authors?

[28:35]Helen Russell: Oh, well, I think so. I trained as a journalist and so having and then I worked and became an editor, and I think that's been really helpful is having that editing head as well as the writing head. So it's the discipline to to get your butt in a chair and do it even when you don't feel like it. And then it's having that other critical brain, which you don't want on too much because then you will sabotage everything and not get anything done, but to be able to edit the work and edit and edit and edit again until it's in a state that you are happy with to share with someone else. Think it's the discipline and the diligence and yes, trying to come from it from a creative angle. Yeah. Love it. It's not easy, though. It doesn't make you rich and buy you a yacht.

[29:16]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, thank you so much. This has been so fascinating and really enjoyable, and thank you so much. I really just I loved it. Thank you. So lovely to meet you. Thank you very much for having me. I hope your kids feel better soon. Thanks. Calamine lotion. Lots of calamine. Yes. Everyone's pink right now. It's fine. Perfect. Okay. Alright. Take care. Bye bye. Take care. Bye bye. Bye.