Billy Baker, WE NEED TO HANG OUT: A Memoir of Making Friends
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[0:38]Billy Baker is the author of We Need to Hang Out, a memoir of making friends.
[0:42]Billy is a staff writer for the Boston Globe, where he writes narrative features and humorous columns.
[0:47]A native of South Boston, he's a graduate of Boston Latin School, Tulane University,
[0:52]and the Columbia Journalism School.
[0:53]He's received the Deborah Howell Award for writing excellence from the American Society of News editors,
[0:58]and was a member of the Globe team that was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for coverage of the Boston Marathon bombings.
[1:04]Welcome, Billy. Thanks so much for coming on Momstone Have Time to read books to discuss.
[1:08]We need to hang out a memoir of making friends.
[1:11]Well, thank you so much for having me.
[1:12]It's my pleasure.
[1:14]We were just hanging out with Kyle, which is great because my husband, as we discussed, is so good at keeping his friends.
[1:22]More so than most, I would say, people, men, whatever.
[1:25]And it's always encouraging me to call friends.
[1:27]And so when I told him about your book originally, he just, like, glommed onto this and has recommended it front, right in center.
[1:33]So that's fantastic.
[1:35]And he seems like a natural glue guy like this phrase.
[1:38]I use in the book of a velvet hook, like these things we need to find that are the soft connectors, a way to be friends with our friends.
[1:44]Sometimes that velvet hook is a person.
[1:47]You know, it's the chiles of the world who are like, let's get the band back together and then follows through on it.
[1:52]So I love it.
[1:53]I love the energy he gives itself.
[1:55]Yeah, it's really amazing.
[1:56]Yeah.
[1:56]I think I'm much more in the camp that you kind of described of, like, life is busy.
[2:01]We have our kids.
[2:02]We have our work.
[2:03]Like, yeah, there are good friends, but like, oh, wait.
[2:06]You moved to, like, another continent.
[2:09]You know, somebody was asking me about one of my good friends.
[2:12]And I was like, oh, again, no, she's one of my best friends.
[2:14]She lives in Seattle.
[2:15]And then, like, two in a second, I was like, actually, I think she might have knew to point to Portland.
[2:19]Like, now I'm confused.
[2:21]I have to check my, like, anyways.
[2:23]So I feel like I have close friends and I love them.
[2:26]And I, you know, but I need to do a much better job.
[2:30]So anyway, your book came at the right time for me too.
[2:32]So for anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about, can you tell what your book is about?
[2:37]And then the fun story that you recount in the book of how this became a book.
[2:41]Sure.
[2:41]Yeah.
[2:42]So it became a book because I was conned by an editor with one of the oldest lives in journalism,
[2:47]which is we have a story we think you'd be perfect for.
[2:50]And so I march into the editor's office with my BS detector turned all the way up.
[2:54]And I sat down and he said, I want you to write about how middle-aged men have no friends.
[3:00]And, you know, I mean, in a split second, I'm having this existential crisis.
[3:05]And he is prattling on about this epidemic that apparently is racing through America.
[3:11]This loneliness epidemic.
[3:13]And to be honest, I'm half listening to him at this point.
[3:16]But what he's laying out is this startling thing that not only do we have this loneliness epidemic,
[3:21]but it has real dire consequences for not just your mental health, but your physical health.
[3:26]I mean, this guy's laying out a proposal in front of me that not having friends means I'm going to die earlier.
[3:32]I'm going to more likely to get cancer, whatever it is.
[3:35]And so I told the editor in that moment one of the other oldest lives in journalism, which is I'll think about it.
[3:41]So the point of that was for me to justify my way out of this story.
[3:46]And be like, no, I've got plenty of friends.
[3:49]You know, I've got friends.
[3:50]I'm so lucky to have great friends all over the world.
[3:53]But in just a short walk back to my desk in the newsroom, it was like, oh, there's this guy and I haven't seen him in six months.
[4:01]And then, you know, this person has been a year since I've seen the person I call my best friend, you know, things like this.
[4:07]And so I sat down to my desk and kind of committed to the story in the sense that I came to realize that I wasn't there was nothing special about me.
[4:16]And that's why I was perfect to write this story. I was painfully typical.
[4:20]And the typical American male and American in general is kind of categorically lonely.
[4:27]So the, you know, so I write this article and then I kind of want to hide under my desk because in the article, I've been bidding to these things that are like cool guy things.
[4:37]You know, like, yeah, I've got to the point where I don't have any friends.
[4:40]I mentioned the article meeting this soldier guy who had a crew of guys that meet on a Wednesday night every every week.
[4:46]And I realized, you know, there were a couple of one when stays that came and went. And I was like, I don't even have anyone to like call tonight, you know, to go have a beer.
[4:55]On the surface, I'm doing a lot of things well, you know, I have a career and a lovely family and kids and things are going well, you know, I'm meeting my vegetables, I'm going to the gym.
[5:04]But at the end of the day, it was, I didn't have any friend time scheduled in my day. So I write this article.
[5:10]I want to hide under my desk. The article comes out and it went crazy. It was the weirdest thing. It became at the time, the most popular article, the Boston Globe had ever published like the Boston Globe and all of a sudden,
[5:23]I'm the guy being dragged on NPR to talk about mail loneliness. You know, all this stuff is swirling in my head like this wasn't, you know, I felt like the kid sitting alone in the cafeteria that was like tell us how he'd feel.
[5:36]And so that article really kind of started this conversation at the time, the surgeon general that was this platform like this sort of loneliness epidemic.
[5:46]And I don't think many people were paying much attention to him. And then I write this silly article where I throw myself under the bus, boom, the sing explodes and right away.
[5:56]I started getting thousands of emails, but the emails were all the same. They weren't asking me for any more proof of this loneliness epidemic. They were like, okay, I acknowledge the cancer.
[6:06]What's secure. And so with this point very selfishly, I'm like, I got to cure my own problems here. Right. So I took on, you know, I committed to write a book.
[6:15]But the idea was, you know, I wasn't going to write a book about loneliness. I was going to write a book about friendship about the problems with trying to fix this.
[6:22]So there's a lot of science of loneliness and a lot of science of friendship. And, you know, I set off on this journey and initially, I mean, if I were to ask you what secure for loneliness, the answer is simple.
[6:32]It's like friends, you need friends in your life.
[6:35]As we talked about before we came on the air here, I mean, but making that a practical thing, you know, making friendship a part of your daily life was tricky.
[6:45]And I'm one of these, you know, many people who I no longer live where I grew up.
[6:50]I moved to sort of that community to raise a family that made a lot of sense on paper.
[6:55]But at the end of the day, it's like, yeah, there were some dads I'd say hi to on the sidelines at a game or some people I knew from, you know, the gym or whatever it might be.
[7:03]But it was I didn't have active membership in a tribe, you know, I had many tribes swirling around me, you know, my high school friends with college friends, whatever it might be, but those were all the best once a year activities.
[7:17]So, initially what I tried to do was to get those bands back together and I worked hard at it, you know, and I put myself in vulnerable positions, which is not a something mentor taught to be comfortable doing.
[7:30]And it worked for the most part, you know, I could say, I got the band back together where as close as we've been since we were originally friends, but you know, the past is a nice place to visit.
[7:42]But if I wanted to solve my issues and reap the health benefits of friendship, I needed to have friends today and every day, you know, I needed friends in my current community.
[7:53]So, I had to take on like the ultimate loser assignment, which is to try to make friends, right? Like, you know, when someone's trying to come on a little strong, you're like, oh, this person just is so craving.
[8:06]I'll tell you the best way to make friends, by the way, is starting your own podcast and then you can make a friend like every half an hour, but anyway, keep going.
[8:16]I believe it. I'm envious of podcasts in the sense that like, oh, you get to have these fun conversations all the time, right?
[8:22]I was actually, I was just thinking to myself as you were talking, like, you should do dance, don't have time to see friends as a podcast.
[8:29]You have a great podcast voice. I'm not even kidding.
[8:31]Like, I was thinking that would be amazing and you would like, it would.
[8:34]Anyway, we can talk about it later, but that would be, I would love that.
[8:37]But anyway, so to speed up the sort of plot of this book, what ultimately happened is I got sick of experts.
[8:43]You know, everyone's an expert at a friendship, but in reality, I came to the conclusion that like, no one's an expert or we're all experts, right? Like, it takes effort.
[8:52]It takes, you know, it takes being vulnerable. It takes all these things, but what helped for me was to kind of shift my focus and to do this awkward thing of try to make friends and adulthood.
[9:05]You know, I was like, you know, I was like, you know what, I don't see you very often. I need a new best friend. I need people in that role.
[9:26]How do you get them? Well, I being a tad too dramatic to decide that I was going to send like secret invitations to a dozen guys and try and replicate this Wednesday night thing that I heard about from these older guys who live in my new town.
[9:42]And who were those guys? Those were all those people where, you know, I knew they like me and I like them and we had that little spark.
[9:50]in terms of very reserved for romantic relationships, but they were the people we'd say, oh, we should get a beer sometime. And then you know what, like we had it.
[9:58]We got all the kids in the car, you know.
[10:00]It's like I went, when is that day?
[10:01]It's a polite gesture.
[10:03]The title of my book is we need to hang out
[10:05]and I feel like that's a phrase that gets thrown about a lot
[10:09]but how much does it mean?
[10:10]You know, it can be a directive
[10:12]but so I set out to kind of create my own tribe,
[10:16]my own squad, you know, a new squad and ultimately it worked
[10:20]because I think those, the men I invited
[10:22]were all in the same category of like,
[10:24]yeah, I've got a lot of stuff going well
[10:26]but I just don't have, I don't have that thing.
[10:29]I don't have the boys.
[10:30]So yeah, I created the boys
[10:32]and I have to say, I started with the dozen guys,
[10:34]we're all still very close but out of that
[10:36]I've added four new best friends
[10:39]and they are the best friends I see and talk to every day,
[10:42]you know.
[10:43]So yeah, really every day, we are,
[10:47]so today is a Wednesday,
[10:48]when we're recording this so tonight
[10:50]the texts are already flying like, what are we gonna do?
[10:52]You know, and we've made that sacred, you know,
[10:57]Wednesday night is like our thing.
[10:58]The wives, the kids know that like dad's gonna be MIA,
[11:02]he's got this thing.
[11:03]And whatever that thing is,
[11:04]I don't, it's, we're floating many ideas
[11:07]about tonight.
[11:09]You said you're done with them all at this point,
[11:11]like no more mall.
[11:12]The mall, we weren't going to the mall for a little bit,
[11:15]we weren't doing then this sort of this larger
[11:18]Wednesday night crew was happening in a barn
[11:20]and then that was good because that had like,
[11:23]that was a neutral, you know, it's all in the book
[11:26]but ultimately I realize that Wednesday night is a promise.
[11:30]It's a concept, you know, and we made this promise
[11:34]and some people made it back, you know,
[11:35]the dozen guys that started originally, you know,
[11:38]two or three or so, very much in and out.
[11:40]There's a few that show up every half the time
[11:43]and then there's a core group that are like,
[11:44]you know, this is important to me and I need this.
[11:47]And Wednesday night is now very often Thursday night
[11:50]and Friday night and you know, Monday morning, you know,
[11:52]we're old men now.
[11:53]So sometimes easiest time to get together
[11:55]is at five a.m. for like our jog or something like that.
[11:59]So we're making it happen and in ways I find impossible
[12:02]to explain, I feel like a happier, healthier, better,
[12:06]everything because I've got friends.
[12:09]So that editor that conned me ultimately gave me
[12:12]the chance to give myself a wonderful gift.
[12:15]And I will say it's referenced in the book,
[12:17]but that editor, that is impetus
[12:20]and got his own act together.
[12:22]I love that.
[12:23]That was like the perfect coming full circle moment.
[12:25]Amazing.
[12:26]And I loved like when you're out in the field,
[12:28]like waiting for your impromptu high school reunion
[12:31]to get together and you're just like sitting there
[12:33]and you're telling us like once in your head
[12:35]is you wait for them all to come.
[12:37]I mean, it's so relatable.
[12:39]It's like so funny and you know,
[12:41]this sort of, yeah, this putting yourself out there
[12:44]and like hoping that it gets returned
[12:46]and not really knowing that's not a great feeling.
[12:48]You know, it's hard to just comfort of that
[12:50]is what stops a lot of people from reaching out
[12:52]or whatever.
[12:54]Throwing a party and worrying that no one's gonna come.
[12:56]I mean, that is that is high level stress,
[13:00]but you know, yeah, I will say this.
[13:01]Every time I put myself out there,
[13:03]the universe rewarded me, you know,
[13:05]like people appreciated that I was doing it
[13:09]and that, you know, it made them okay.
[13:11]And all along, I've been the one just raising my hand.
[13:13]Like the loser here, you know,
[13:15]I'm the guy making this effort.
[13:18]Like so, if anything, I think men are very comfortable
[13:22]communicating via ball busting.
[13:23]So having me as the person that they could throw under
[13:27]the bus was a bonding mechanism, you know,
[13:30]like I feel like even still at the stay,
[13:32]the Wednesday night will be like,
[13:33]oh, what's Billy gonna force us to do tonight?
[13:35]I mean, well, like it's the highlight of their week, you know.
[13:38]I just don't think it would fly if I said to my kids
[13:41]and even Kyle, like every week I'm going out
[13:44]with my girlfriends.
[13:44]Like I go out with my girlfriends,
[13:46]like once more than once, like once a quarter
[13:49]or something like that.
[13:50]I always feel guilty about it.
[13:52]But let me say what the experts would tell you
[13:55]is that regularity is the key.
[13:57]If it is every Wednesday night,
[13:59]then life will find a way to revolve around it.
[14:01]You know, this is why things,
[14:03]the simplest things are the ones that work the best.
[14:05]So weekly book club or the sports league
[14:07]or poker night, whatever it is,
[14:09]you know, that person's just MIA, that's their night.
[14:14]And so the, I find the occasional one to be that much harder.
[14:18]I mean, my least favorite phrase in the human language
[14:21]is let's throw out some dates, right?
[14:23]Like that's like when you know,
[14:25]it's just not gonna work.
[14:27]That's a polite way of saying,
[14:28]we're never going away for the weekend.
[14:30]Like there's zero chance that this one's up.
[14:32]But, you know, even those annual events,
[14:35]if it's like every Labor Day or whatever it is,
[14:37]you know, then life finds a way around it.
[14:39]So do you have one friend
[14:40]and during the pandemic,
[14:42]every Saturday morning we would play tennis
[14:43]and it was great.
[14:45]And now I've gotten to know her like all a new,
[14:48]you know, it's great.
[14:49]So, and now of course she's like across the street,
[14:51]I haven't seen her, literally across the street.
[14:53]I'm like, I don't know, you know, through the game.
[14:56]So I think that's a classic example.
[14:58]Like you need to find ways to be friends with your friends,
[15:01]right?
[15:02]And something as simple as tennis, you know,
[15:03]is it about the tennis or is it about, you know,
[15:06]what comes after the tennis, you know,
[15:08]the conversations and those in between spaces.
[15:11]So there's something worth knowing with you.
[15:12]No, the conversation is the tennis.
[15:15]We talk the entire time.
[15:18]I love it.
[15:18]There's not a moment we're not talking.
[15:20]We call it like country club tennis at this point
[15:22]because we were like, sometimes we don't even sweat.
[15:24]It's embarrassing, but anyway.
[15:26]No, but that it's the excuse, right?
[15:28]That's what these things are.
[15:29]These are these, you know, soft connectors,
[15:31]these velvet hooks, but something very worth knowing
[15:34]for your listeners is that there's a fundamental difference
[15:36]in how men and women interact with each other,
[15:39]which is that women talk face to face
[15:41]and men talk shoulder to shoulder.
[15:43]So if you're looking to find those ways to be friends
[15:46]with your friends, be conscious of that.
[15:48]Like, you know, women, I think are very capable
[15:50]of keeping friendships going over the phone.
[15:52]That's actually a documented fact and are terrible at this.
[15:55]You can get coffee.
[15:57]You can sit there and you can start right away
[15:59]in the steeper level.
[16:01]Men, meanwhile, you know, if a man invites me
[16:03]to get coffee, I'm a little like,
[16:04]ah, yeah, let me check my schedule.
[16:06]But if they say, will you come over
[16:08]and help me cut down this tree in my backyard?
[16:10]Like, I'll be there in a second, right?
[16:12]That's really funny yet.
[16:14]You know, and it's in our DNA somewhere
[16:17]and this is what makes it natural for men
[16:20]is to be in that shoulder to shoulder.
[16:22]And then maybe it tells, maybe it doesn't,
[16:25]but you know, that's the space where the magic happens,
[16:28]where you might say, hey, how's your dad doing?
[16:31]You know, or maybe you don't.
[16:32]You know, my wife is always on my case
[16:34]because I'll come home from my Wednesday nights
[16:36]and it'll be like, oh, how's someone says,
[16:38]mother doing, I know she's sick and I'm like,
[16:40]it never came up, I'm sorry.
[16:43]But, you know, you read the room.
[16:45]It didn't seem like they wanted to talk about it.
[16:46]What they wanted to talk about is, you know,
[16:48]who farted or whatever it is we're doing.
[16:51]Oh my gosh, too funny.
[16:53]You know, the only thing that I was thinking
[16:56]when I read this that was like, you know,
[16:58]the times in my life I know and like other people's lives,
[17:01]when they are there most lonely,
[17:03]I don't feel like they necessarily know.
[17:05]And I know this is sort of, I'm not saying this very eloquently,
[17:08]but like, this is like about reconnecting, right?
[17:11]It's like, I used to have friends.
[17:12]I know I'm not making time for friends.
[17:14]This is how I need, this is why it's important
[17:16]to make time for friends, to rediscover friends,
[17:18]to figure out who I want to be friends
[17:20]at this stage in my life and maybe those are new people
[17:22]and that's okay.
[17:23]But I feel like the times that people feel the most worried
[17:28]or alone is when they don't feel they have access
[17:30]to a friend group and then what do they do?
[17:32]And then of course your research is just like,
[17:34]oh, great, well now, not only am I lonely,
[17:36]but now I'm gonna die, you know, so it's like...
[17:39]I know.
[17:40]And that's a bind, loneliness begets loneliness.
[17:43]I mean, we all know that cranky old person
[17:45]that you go and try and be nice to them
[17:47]and they're awful too, you know,
[17:48]and but that is, that's a symptom of the loneliness.
[17:52]I'd say, you know, I do hear from a lot of people
[17:55]who aren't, you know, just in the typical situation,
[17:59]I describe it, but are chronically lonely.
[18:01]And it's the same solution, you've gotta find a squad
[18:05]and if you don't have one, you've gotta create one.
[18:07]It's a simple, we know what these things are.
[18:10]These are, you know, everyone has their little thing there
[18:12]and no, if you can find other people that are in it,
[18:15]then you've already got something in common, right?
[18:18]And the internet, I mean, there are moments
[18:20]when I wanna just take it out behind the barn and shoot it,
[18:23]but it also comes with these benefits of, you know,
[18:26]if you are into collecting Pokemon cards as an adult,
[18:29]there's other people in your community that are in it, right?
[18:31]And you can find them in your at step one already.
[18:36]And, you know, really step one is initiative,
[18:38]putting in the effort, being willing to be vulnerable.
[18:41]Step two is finding these ways to be friends.
[18:43]And if you start with that,
[18:45]pretty soon the magic's gonna happen.
[18:47]I wrote about this in the book,
[18:48]like the only real, so I kinda took this inventory myself,
[18:52]the only real social time I had was at the gym.
[18:55]And the idea in my head that I was gonna be one
[18:58]of these adults whose like friends were the guys from the gym,
[19:02]like it was like humiliating to the stuff,
[19:06]like a little Billy had a grown-up Billy,
[19:08]but you know what, like there I was.
[19:10]And so I had to do the even more awkward thing
[19:13]and be like, hey, gym friends,
[19:16]you wanna become real life friends.
[19:19]And you know what, like the answer was yes, they did, you know?
[19:23]And so we should talk about, you know,
[19:26]like the pandemic arrived in the middle of me,
[19:29]you know, sort of taking on this issue
[19:31]and obviously it was bad to change things.
[19:34]I think it made us more appreciative,
[19:35]but what I feel like I'm seeing now,
[19:37]you know, when I'm on a podcast or whatever
[19:39]and they're asking me like, what do I think the impact will be?
[19:42]I think I'm already seeing the impact.
[19:43]I feel like, and I'm just a naive optimist.
[19:47]I feel like we are entering this new golden age of friendship.
[19:51]Like I feel like people are conscious of why they need it
[19:55]and they're making the effort.
[19:57]Like I mean, now I just feel,
[19:59]I see some.
[20:00]many new things happening, and maybe they're all new
[20:02]because we're locked in our houses for you,
[20:04]but I think we have never been more aware
[20:07]of the importance of friendship in our lives,
[20:09]the impact of loneliness, and the need to do something about it.
[20:13]So I wrote a book.
[20:15]It is just semi-corny title of we need to hang out.
[20:18]It is great if you want to,
[20:20]if you are like many guys,
[20:22]you struggle for a way to say,
[20:23]hey, I miss you, you do like some guy just asked me
[20:27]you'll like sign a bunch of, you know,
[20:30]what are these called book plates for their friend
[20:32]and talk trash about him.
[20:33]So we can mail to his friends that he messes.
[20:36]And yeah, so this book is written for the sort of guy
[20:39]that probably doesn't read a lot of books.
[20:42]It's also written for his wife, okay?
[20:45]There are many books about female friendship.
[20:48]I'm really not aware of many about male friendship,
[20:51]especially delving into the science and the psychology
[20:54]and why we're so screwed up.
[20:55]And also why women are so much better at it.
[20:57]That was one of the most wonderful things
[20:59]to try and explore because when I first started,
[21:02]I just kept hearing women are better friendship than men.
[21:05]It was like, oh, why?
[21:06]Okay, I'm just, as a man, we are constantly told though women
[21:10]are better than us at all these social things.
[21:13]And you know what, you are better.
[21:15]And there are really cool biological reasons
[21:18]why you're better.
[21:19]And there's also vulnerability reasons why you're better.
[21:22]So I did a lot of spying on women with the goal
[21:26]of trying to steal something and take it back
[21:28]to the boy's cabin and be like,
[21:29]this is what they do when we're not around, you know?
[21:31]But I think this journey was the science of sociology
[21:35]and just the personal growth was like,
[21:38]the most fun I've had in a long time.
[21:40]And at the end of the day, I have friends
[21:43]for a Wednesday night.
[21:44]So.
[21:44]That's amazing.
[21:45]My last question is what advice you have for aspiring authors?
[21:48]And I know as a journalist and now this big deal author
[21:52]that you are with this book,
[21:53]you have stuff to share.
[21:55]So go for it.
[21:57]Well, I'll say this,
[21:58]I wrote one trillion newspaper magazine articles in my life
[22:01]and I thought the publishing world was just this dark art.
[22:05]You know, I didn't know how you access it.
[22:08]I knew it involved like agents and proposals
[22:11]and it seems very frightening.
[22:12]And then, you know, I mean, I just was in a book store
[22:15]when I was like, you know, it's not everyone is happening.
[22:19]Where I like, we can do, you know, you can get in the door.
[22:23]But I mean, the hardest part of any writing project
[22:27]is sitting down and starting, right?
[22:28]And not being too precious about it.
[22:30]I mean, the opening of my book is me calling myself a loser.
[22:33]Okay, and it worked.
[22:36]So yeah, I think the writing process for the book,
[22:39]I was shocked at how much I enjoyed it.
[22:41]Cause when you open up that blank document
[22:44]and you're like, Oh God, how long does this need to be?
[22:47]But each day was like a fun little growth period.
[22:51]And, you know, I feel like I wrote it for me.
[22:53]It was, I was very privileged to be writing
[22:56]about a personal journey that I was kind of forced to go on
[22:59]because of this book.
[23:00]But, you know, I think, you know, I'm not the first person
[23:03]to give this sort of advice.
[23:04]But I mean, if you're writing for yourself
[23:05]and you're real own joy and, you know,
[23:08]I had these psychopath moments
[23:10]where I would laugh at my own joke that I just wrote down.
[23:12]You know, it's like, I'm having fun with it.
[23:14]Hopefully the reader will as well.
[23:16]And, you know, that's all you can ask for.
[23:18]I wouldn't see if I could quickly find,
[23:19]I laughed out loud, like three different times
[23:21]within the first five minutes.
[23:22]But now, of course, I won't find it
[23:24]and now it's the end anyway.
[23:24]But I wasn't kidding about the podcast.
[23:26]If you have any interest in talking about it.
[23:28]I would, it sure.
[23:29]I would love to be now.
[23:30]I think that could be really cool.
[23:31]So, okay.
[23:32]Great.
[23:33]Great to meet you.
[23:34]Well, this was super fun.
[23:35]Great to meet you as well.
[23:36]I love the color coded books.
[23:38]I used to do that.
[23:39]And then it just, it got messed up
[23:41]and then it was no going back.
[23:42]But I love it.
[23:43]I don't touch it.
[23:44]I just leave it.
[23:46]I don't need to use that wall.
[23:47]I'll tell you, after I color coded my books,
[23:49]I realized most books are white.
[23:50]Yeah, I can see it now.
[23:51]Well, that's good.
[23:52]All the white books are actually over here
[23:53]because I had to just like shove them in after I ran out
[23:56]of space.
[23:57]But anyway, very cool.
[24:00]All right, we'll have fun tonight.
[24:01]I can't wait to hear what you did.
[24:03]Thank you.
[24:03]And yes, if you want to chat about podcasting,
[24:05]I'd love to.
[24:06]Yeah, I really would.
[24:07]Okay, I'll email through your public sister something.
[24:09]Okay.
[24:10]Thank you.
[24:11]Have a great day.
[24:12]You do, bye bye.
[24:13]Thanks for listening to this episode of Mom's Don't Have Time
[24:16]to Read Books.
[24:17]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebiowinds
[24:20]and at moms don't have time to read books.
[24:22]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowinds.com
[24:25]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:26]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:29]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[24:32]for the Sound Editing.
[24:33]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:35]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.