Christine Pride and Jo Piazza, WE ARE NOT LIKE THEM: A Novel
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[0:36]Hi, hi, hello.
[0:38]Enjoy the show.
[0:41]I had so much fun interviewing Joe Piazza and Christine Pride,
[0:44]who were the co-authors of We Are Not Like Them, a novel.
[0:48]I actually did this interview, although you won't hear much from her with Sheri Pouzi from my team.
[0:53]She runs Moms Don't Have Time to Grieve, and she's at What Sheri Reads.
[0:58]So Sheri and I, I didn't want to show up alone to this duo interview.
[1:02]So Sheri and I had a chat with Joe and Christine.
[1:05]And then we found out we interviewed them the day before the launch of their book
[1:09]and then found out that it has been chosen as the GMA Book Club pick.
[1:13]So we're really, really excited about that and wish them so much congratulations.
[1:18]And this interview, the video portion of this interview will be on the GMA Book Club
[1:22]Instagram account so you can watch us having so much fun.
[1:26]But anyway, Christine Pride is a writer, editor, and long time publishing veteran.
[1:30]She has held editorial posts at many different trade imprints, including double day,
[1:34]Broadway, Crown, Hyperion, and Simon and Schuster.
[1:37]As an editor, Christine has published a range of books with a special emphasis
[1:40]on inspirational stories and memoirs, including numerous New York Times best sellers.
[1:45]As a freelance editorial consultant, she does select editing and proposal content development
[1:49]as well as teaching and coaching and pens a regular column, race matters for Cup of Joe.
[1:54]She lives in New York City.
[1:55]Joe Piazza is an award-winning journalist, editor, and podcast host.
[1:59]Her work has appeared in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, Marie Claire,
[2:03]Glamour, and other notable publications.
[2:05]She's also the author of Charlotte Walsh Likes to Win, How to Be Married, The Knockoff,
[2:10]Fitness Junkie, and if Nunn's Rule the World.
[2:13]She hosts three podcasts now which she talks about, including Committed,
[2:18]which is one of my favorites and Under the Influence and is starting anyone.
[2:22]And she also lives in Philadelphia with her husband and two small children,
[2:26]although I feel like she just moved to New York.
[2:28]But anyway, here they are.
[2:29]Welcome, Christine and Joe.
[2:31]Thank you so much for coming on Moms.
[2:32]Don't have time to read books to discuss.
[2:34]We are not like them.
[2:36]And we're so happy to be here.
[2:37]Thank you for having us.
[2:38]Yeah, this is one of our first day before a lot.
[2:40]This is our first day before lunch.
[2:42]They interview us.
[2:43]Yeah.
[2:44]Wow.
[2:45]First on the day before the lunch.
[2:46]I'm honored.
[2:47]And I'm here today with Sherry Fusi, who is the head of Moms.
[2:50]And I'm time to grieve.
[2:52]And on our team, and also at what Sherry reads.
[2:54]And as I said, she's a fan.
[2:56]So she's here listening.
[2:57]So anyway, just so you know, I didn't want to feel overwhelmed that there were two of you.
[3:00]And just one of me.
[3:01]So what I want in one situation is always better.
[3:06]Right.
[3:07]It's like Canadian doubles, right?
[3:08]It's like you need the, you need a doubles partner.
[3:10]So anyway, here we are.
[3:12]Okay.
[3:13]So we are not like them.
[3:14]Can you please tell listeners what this book is about?
[3:16]Let's hear the elevator pitch.
[3:18]And then what inspired you to write it.
[3:20]And especially together.
[3:21]All right.
[3:22]So we trade.
[3:23]We take turns on doing our elevator pitch.
[3:26]And our me too.
[3:27]And our me too.
[3:28]We'll probably happen next.
[3:29]So we are not like them is a story about the lifelong friendship between two women.
[3:36]Jen and Riley.
[3:37]Riley is a black woman.
[3:39]Jen is a white woman.
[3:40]And they grew up in Philadelphia together.
[3:42]They've been friends since they were in daycare.
[3:44]And as they've grown up, their lives have changed.
[3:47]They've changed.
[3:48]They've grown a little bit apart.
[3:50]But it's still still really close.
[3:52]And as their adults and as we up in the book,
[3:55]Jen's husband who is a Philadelphia police officer shoots an arms butt teenage.
[4:01]And Riley is the newscaster who has to cover this tragic.
[4:05]And the book follows what happens to their friendship through the lens of this tragedy.
[4:13]And, but it's constantly focusing on how the two women are coping with the issues of race between them in their relationship.
[4:21]And how the incident does challenge everything that they thought they knew about each other.
[4:26]Everything they thought they knew about their friendship.
[4:29]And we've decided to write it together a while ago.
[4:33]And it's been three and a half years.
[4:35]Yes.
[4:36]In the trenches.
[4:37]Right in this book.
[4:38]And now we just, we can't believe that it's finally coming into the world this week.
[4:43]It's insane to us.
[4:44]It's very exciting.
[4:45]John King, John King, John King, John King, John King, John King, John King.
[4:48]All the other things.
[4:49]All right.
[4:50]So now the meet camp.
[4:51]Now that you can.
[4:52]Get that up.
[4:53]Yeah.
[4:54]It actually met when I was a editor at Sun and Chistor.
[4:58]I spent less 20 years.
[5:00]I spoke editor.
[5:01]Which is crazy because she's like 25.
[5:03]And so it's like she busted through the space.
[5:06]I started in middle school working at random house.
[5:09]But so I was a Joe's editor for normal.
[5:11]And we worked so well together on that.
[5:14]Not only professionally, but we just had this spark.
[5:17]But you know, that we felt like we were getting so much common.
[5:20]And we were just going to be friends.
[5:22]And then we worked on another project together, which was Italian.
[5:26]To the television show Younger, which I'm sure a lot of your listeners have watched since
[5:31]that it made the world of publishing.
[5:33]Although I wish I had a wardrobe, budget, like Hillary.
[5:37]When did we end the start?
[5:38]Oh, my God.
[5:39]It's getting pretty sweet.
[5:40]Yeah.
[5:41]For the show.
[5:42]Actually, I'm about to interview her too.
[5:44]Oh, my God.
[5:47]I'll be back to younger.
[5:48]Oh, my God.
[5:49]Oh, my gosh.
[5:50]Yeah.
[5:51]I'm interviewing her tomorrow.
[5:52]And I also interviewed the author of the book Younger, which became.
[5:56]Yes.
[5:57]Yeah.
[5:59]The world is small.
[6:00]Just a name drop a little.
[6:01]Yeah.
[6:02]I just got to throw that at me.
[6:03]But OK.
[6:04]So go ahead.
[6:05]I published marriage vacation, which was the tie in.
[6:07]It was published on the show.
[6:08]And I published it as on the two-ster.
[6:10]And I needed the writer for it.
[6:12]And Joe's good and fast.
[6:14]And so I asked Joe to do it because we had four weeks to turn this book around to have it come out.
[6:20]You know, with the tour week.
[6:21]Yes.
[6:22]Production schedule.
[6:23]Maybe five, like four weeks to write a week to edit.
[6:26]It was fast.
[6:29]And over a holiday.
[6:30]So we were really in the trenches together and sort of the editor author roles broke down.
[6:37]And all sorts of ways.
[6:38]And we were both just kind of in this Google doc.
[6:40]Fast and curious.
[6:41]And we worked really well together on that.
[6:43]So when we finished that project, we started thinking about what else we could potentially collaborate on.
[6:49]And I'd have this idea sort of kicking around for a while as editors.
[6:54]And you're always having book ideas.
[6:56]Normally, you're not thinking that you're going to write them, but they're sort of all similar.
[7:00]And one was about an interracial relationship, a friendship between a black woman and a white woman.
[7:06]And that was expected by a police shooting.
[7:08]And this was, you know, like, police shootings go in harrowing waves.
[7:11]Right?
[7:12]Like the headlines.
[7:13]You know, there's a rash of them.
[7:15]This is one of those times in spring 2018.
[7:17]So it just felt like the time was right.
[7:19]And then we had a really good opportunity in terms of tackling this subject.
[7:23]as that, if we paired together as a black woman and a white woman.
[7:27]There was a unique opportunity to bring our different experience and perspectives to the table.
[7:33]In a way that's, you know, the book would be richer.
[7:37]Rather than either of us trying to tackle it alone.
[7:39]And we could do something really different and special and unique.
[7:43]And we did it.
[7:44]I think it was one for Steve.
[7:46]Steve first proposed it too.
[7:47]I think she was like, well, this would be delicious Steve.
[7:50]And I was like, Oh, no, we're going to solve this public.
[7:53]Great.
[7:54]Fantastic.
[7:55]And so you did it.
[7:57]Well, that was amazing.
[7:58]I mean, we're both going behind this.
[8:00]I was working up really demanding, you know,
[8:03]a day job.
[8:04]And so I'm going to choose to start the time.
[8:05]And so it did feel like, okay, we'll, we'll get some words down on the page.
[8:09]And, you know, kind of take it from there.
[8:12]And then it really, we were into it.
[8:14]Everyone's got into that Google though.
[8:16]Which at first was a word.
[8:17]Yeah.
[8:18]Christine, but then no one in publishing likes technology.
[8:21]They just hate it.
[8:22]So.
[8:23]And so I had to drag Christine kicking and screaming into the world.
[8:27]That's true.
[8:28]Google that's, oh, I will say an executive.
[8:30]I've been shitting on Microsoft.
[8:33]So often in these interviews that an executive at Microsoft reached out yesterday.
[8:37]No.
[8:38]I was like, you should really try our new 365 software.
[8:40]It's great for collaboration.
[8:41]Okay.
[8:43]Okay.
[8:44]Now our next book is sponsored by Microsoft, you guys.
[8:47]Yeah.
[8:52]Yeah, I know.
[8:53]I feel like there's always something wrong with me when I can't do the track changes properly.
[8:57]And how do I am I supposed to accept all of them?
[9:00]Or do they just ignore them and they go in?
[9:02]Do they go in or do they not go in?
[9:04]I don't know.
[9:05]And I'm like, do I stop life and do a tutorial on it?
[9:08]And then I don't know.
[9:10]Anyway.
[9:11]Oh, well.
[9:12]part of what's so interesting about this book is the friendship angle and how
[9:17]everybody, not everybody, how the both women are so open about all of their own issues
[9:22]and then how they all come together.
[9:24]And I see the you dedicated it to your friends.
[9:26]And I know, Christine, you wrote recently this whole race matters.
[9:29]How can I talk about race without getting it wrong?
[9:32]And I just love the dedication to sort of working through friendship and not like anything
[9:38]sort of stand in the way.
[9:39]So do you do this with your own friendships?
[9:42]Like, yes.
[9:43]Yeah.
[9:44]Do you go to like the hard places a lot?
[9:46]And like what was it like manufacturing this one?
[9:49]First and foremost, we wanted this to be a friendship novel.
[9:52]I mean, this is why the book is dedicated to our friends.
[9:55]So that's just always been such an important part of our lives.
[10:00]I have seen it recently in our relationship with each other,
[10:02]but even before we met, we're just,
[10:04]we really believe in the power of female friendship
[10:06]and I've been lost without all of my friends.
[10:09]And so...
[10:10]And we don't think it's celebrated enough.
[10:12]Exactly.
[10:13]It's so much, there's so much just like romance and marriage.
[10:18]And also like the narrative that your marriage
[10:21]and romance saves everything in your life.
[10:23]And that's not true, let's be honest.
[10:26]It's our friendships that save our life.
[10:28]I mean, what?
[10:29]My husband's fine, he's fine.
[10:32]Love him.
[10:33]But it is my girlfriend who's been propping me up
[10:36]and getting me through the day for the past 40 years.
[10:41]And so we really, and especially a long-term friendship,
[10:44]there's something really special about that.
[10:46]Even Riley and Jennifer and friends, you know,
[10:48]since they were so little,
[10:50]and that's not something you could recreate
[10:52]in adulthood.
[10:53]So there's something really particular about that.
[10:56]But also we have someone's had a challenges
[10:58]about when you've been friends with somebody for so long.
[11:01]You see them through so many different iterations
[11:03]and versions of themselves, right?
[11:06]And so by the time you get to adulthood,
[11:08]for a better or worse, you have this, you know,
[11:11]kind of long, long history.
[11:13]It's either pulled against the person,
[11:15]which I think comes up sometimes in long-term friendships
[11:18]or to be a witness into that person to remind them
[11:21]who they are.
[11:22]And that comes up a lot in the relationship between Riley
[11:25]and Jen on the page, right?
[11:26]Like how much are you allowed to change
[11:28]in your friendships and how much
[11:31]is the special part of it that you're the same,
[11:33]or your friendship is at least the same.
[11:35]And I love what you said about the friendship
[11:38]being a witness to your life.
[11:40]Because I think that's what we all want.
[11:41]What we all crave.
[11:43]Even I think the reason that all of us
[11:45]are so obsessed with the social media, right?
[11:47]We want someone else to see what we're living
[11:50]and how we're living and to have that friend
[11:53]that has been a few through all of those things.
[11:55]It's an incredibly special person.
[11:58]And we both think it's worth preserving.
[12:00]Even if you have to go to uncomfortable places
[12:03]to keep that person in your life.
[12:05]I think that's why I've had a few friends
[12:07]who I've lost at a young age.
[12:09]And I think that's part of the pain
[12:10]is that then your collective memory has gone.
[12:13]Like the other day, I'm like, remember that,
[12:14]when I went to that like college visit, we,
[12:17]but I can't even call her to find out any of those details,
[12:20]which of course I can't remember
[12:21]because I've lost my entire memory at this point.
[12:23]So you lose that shared history.
[12:25]I was also telling my kids yesterday,
[12:26]I went to visit one of my oldest friends,
[12:29]well, I have a lot of old friends,
[12:29]but this particular old friend of mine has ALS
[12:32]and it's been very sad
[12:33]and she's been sick for many years.
[12:34]So I was trying to say as I was visiting like,
[12:36]they're like, well, do you hang out with her a lot?
[12:37]I was like, no, I didn't,
[12:39]used to hang out all that much,
[12:40]but we are really old friends.
[12:41]There is nothing like that.
[12:43]And they didn't, I mean, of course,
[12:44]they're like six and eight, so they didn't do it.
[12:46]They've got stuff.
[12:48]But you know, but there's nothing like it.
[12:50]So anyway.
[12:51]There's not, there actually isn't.
[12:52]And especially as we get older
[12:54]and, you know, you get very into your career
[12:56]and your marriage and having kids,
[12:59]I don't, my best friend lives in Nashville.
[13:02]I see her once a year,
[13:04]but I've been friends with her for 21 years
[13:06]since I was 18 years old and so that shared history.
[13:12]I think it often means a lot more
[13:13]than the friends that you make later in adulthood too.
[13:16]I thought it was really interesting in your book though,
[13:19]the financial differences between friends
[13:22]and how you address those two.
[13:24]And I just wanted to read this one section
[13:26]if that's okay.
[13:27]Please.
[13:27]Okay, so Jen and Riley are talking about
[13:30]the differences in their money situations
[13:31]and IVF and all that.
[13:32]And she's, so Riley is saying, you can try again, right?
[13:37]No, we can't, Jen side.
[13:38]You can, you will, I insisted.
[13:40]What will it take for you to try again?
[13:41]There was a long stretch before she spoke, money.
[13:44]We're already like 30 grand in debt, 30 grand I repeated,
[13:47]taking in the staggering number.
[13:49]It was more than my annual salary
[13:50]and my first job out of college,
[13:51]working as a scrub reporter in Jofflin, Missouri.
[13:54]And it was an insane amount of money
[13:55]to spend on something that didn't seem to be working at all.
[13:58]They still didn't have a baby,
[14:00]but I made it my mind not to judge.
[14:01]Besides, I'd never seen Jen like this.
[14:03]It was painful to witness someone you love
[14:05]when something so desperately
[14:07]and to watch as each miscarriage fundamentally altered her
[14:11]made her more fragile and bitter.
[14:13]Gigi said it was like Jen's spirit itself was withering,
[14:16]like forgotten fruit.
[14:17]There was only one thing to do.
[14:19]How much do you need?
[14:20]I was crying.
[14:21]Yeah, look at that.
[14:21]We've actually never heard anybody else read
[14:24]like each other.
[14:26]Well, he's really, I could keep going.
[14:29]I could just, I'll flip through
[14:31]and we could just stay here all day.
[14:33]Well, it's been a beautiful sentiment.
[14:35]I mean, you know, like that.
[14:37]Anyway, tell me about that element of it.
[14:39]Well, this is a book that deals
[14:42]with so many different issues about race
[14:44]and social justice,
[14:46]but that's a lot of what we've been here about.
[14:50]That seems to be the headline for this book.
[14:52]But frankly, it's also about other things.
[14:55]It's very much about the class difference
[14:58]between the two women and the socioeconomic status
[15:01]of the two women and how money can come between friends
[15:05]is a big issue and also how
[15:07]parenthood can come between friends.
[15:10]Riley doesn't understand Jen's fertility struggles
[15:13]because she is just not there yet.
[15:15]In her life, she's so focused on her career
[15:17]and Jen doesn't understand why Riley is so focused
[15:21]on her career and her ambitions.
[15:23]It's just never been a muscle that she's wanted to flex.
[15:26]And I think that there are so many of us
[15:28]have those fundamental differences
[15:30]between our friends and also the question
[15:33]that Riley asks is, is Jen going to leave me behind?
[15:36]Now that she's married and she's going to have this baby.
[15:39]And part of that is why Riley tries to pull away
[15:41]from general to get to itself preservation.
[15:44]So all of these things are happening in the friendship
[15:47]that have nothing to do with the aspect of race
[15:50]for the pollution.
[15:51]There's always a lot.
[15:52]I mean, how can you piece apart one event or one aspect?
[15:56]Just like you can't put it together
[15:58]while your friends do begin with.
[15:59]It's just unspoken combination of whatever
[16:03]ness as that for our particular one thing
[16:08]that we always talk about is we'd Riley and Jen
[16:11]be friends if they met today, right?
[16:14]And I think we think of that a lot about our own friendships,
[16:17]people in our lives just in general, right?
[16:19]Like, you know, if you, depending on when you meet somebody
[16:23]where you are in your life, that can sometimes
[16:26]be the springboard for a bond or not, right?
[16:28]The whole time is everything sort of thing,
[16:30]which is the case with Joe and I met.
[16:32]And so it's just kind of interesting thing too,
[16:36]to think about and what your friendship can survive, right?
[16:39]So there's all these change in roles
[16:42]when one person becomes a mother or wife
[16:44]and one person doesn't, or if they you both do
[16:46]when your life's kind of diverged
[16:47]because you're busy or what have you or one person's career
[16:51]takes off and the other person's does it, right?
[16:53]They're all these kind of dividing lines
[16:56]in any kind of relationship.
[16:58]And so the tension, university tension there
[17:01]is, you know, what can this friendship survive?
[17:03]And then in our case with Riley and Jen,
[17:05]there's also the added layer of this particular thing
[17:09]happening that doesn't necessarily have been
[17:11]to them in their relationship, but has it profound effect
[17:16]all in their relationship?
[17:17]And the question then is can they survive that too
[17:19]on top of everything else?
[17:21]We, and also you don't only delve into their friendship,
[17:24]you go into the actual marriages,
[17:25]like you go into what that's like
[17:28]and those intimate conversations and like regret
[17:30]and you know, should this have happened?
[17:32]And I mean, all the stuff that doesn't necessarily
[17:36]leave the house.
[17:38]Yeah, it was leave the house or the bedroom.
[17:41]That was one of our really important goals
[17:44]that we are not like them was to bring the reader
[17:46]inside these very intimate spaces
[17:49]and intimate conversations that you don't typically see.
[17:53]And also tend to get inside our characters' heads.
[17:55]That was the whole reason we did this book first person.
[17:58]It was originally written third person.
[18:00]We changed it literally the last minute.
[18:03]Oh, no.
[18:04]Oh, yeah.
[18:05]Oh, yeah.
[18:06]Joe called me one day and said, are you sitting down?
[18:08]I think we should rewrite the book in first person.
[18:11]Like you should have given me more time
[18:13]and not only sit down, but also two.
[18:15]I should have said our dreams.
[18:16]Yeah.
[18:17]And you heard like, why are you drinking vodka?
[18:19]Yeah.
[18:20]I was sitting down, I was, was not enough
[18:22]to take all that head.
[18:23]But we did it in a better, better
[18:26]because you get to end up these very intimate conversations.
[18:29]You get to see some of the things and then what they say,
[18:33]which can be told to totally different things.
[18:36]And I think that's interesting on an individual level
[18:39]right or universal level with both of the characters
[18:42]that always happens, right?
[18:43]What you say, what you, I think, maybe two different things.
[18:46]But on top of that, the raised component
[18:48]here in the race and well, you know,
[18:50]Joe was privy to conversations that I am not privy to.
[18:53]People will say things in front of her
[18:55]that they wouldn't say in front of me as a black woman
[18:57]and vice versa.
[18:59]And so that was a unique strength in terms of our writing
[19:02]this book together because we can bring those conversations
[19:05]to the table that we've both heard.
[19:08]And then we want people to witness these kind of conversations.
[19:11]And then practice them themselves, right?
[19:14]Like use this book as a jumping ball point
[19:17]to go back to their friends, families, social networks
[19:21]and have these kind of conversations.
[19:25]Wow.
[19:26]So Christine, are you no longer an editor?
[19:28]Like what's your path now in this?
[19:32]That is now.
[19:33]What's the status?
[19:34]It's really a good question.
[19:35]Maybe a whole separate podcast.
[19:36]What is Christine's future?
[19:39]As someone that can't stop making podcasts, I love I know, right?
[19:43]It's a very fly journey, lots of tension, dramatic
[19:46]twists and turns.
[19:48]I'm still working as a consultant at Simon and Schuster.
[19:51]I have some of the books that I acquired before I left
[19:53]and some of my beloved authors, some of the books
[19:55]that I've recently come out or forthcoming.
[19:59]And then Joe and I are working on the book.
[20:00]well too. So I'm still wearing lots of different hats right now, which is exciting and
[20:06]interesting. And I think, you know, as busy as we both may be doing all these different types
[20:12]of projects, we wouldn't have it any other way. Like that's just how we kind of thrive and move
[20:17]in the world. And so it's nice to just be storytelling ourselves, helping other people tell stories,
[20:24]championing other writers, and it's fun. It's great. It's, you know, during all of the
[20:29]hectic craziness of a bunch, it's nice to have each other because we're both like, why don't you
[20:34]take a step back and freak and enjoy it? Because this is awesome. And so we get, we're doing what
[20:40]we love, which is telling stories and getting into talking about books all that. That's pretty cool.
[20:46]The sounds really familiar. I mean, it's true. The other day, I was like editing, I have this
[20:55]memoir coming out next summer. And all day, I had to be like in the document, like because I had
[21:00]so much to do when I had to deadline whenever. And after I was like, oh my gosh, I felt like eight hours
[21:05]or seven hours in the document today. And I was like, this is what other writers do you every day?
[21:09]Yeah. Like a bunch of often I posted, I think, and somebody was like, yeah, I'm a writer, you know,
[21:14]this is what I do. I'm like, I couldn't do that. Like I, I need all these different inputs. I need
[21:18]to be like in it. Right. It sounds like you guys operate the same way. Like some people can just do one,
[21:23]you know, not that it's bad. It's just the different way, different people's brains work in different
[21:28]ways. You know, yeah, we don't have to tell you about wearing a lot of hats. That's for sure. I don't know
[21:36]how you do it. So many different things. But no, I'm just, you know, I feel like we need a better
[21:41]expression, right? Because wearing a lot of hats makes it seem like you're not really
[21:45]that's true. I mean, I'm from. I'm not to criticize the expression. I'm just like thinking about
[21:50]it. I'm totally criticizing it. And like who is wearing all these people who have that much
[21:55]man? And are they on top of each other? Is it like caps for sale? You know, 19th century.
[22:03]Are we wearing four doors or baseball caps? I don't know. Yeah. I think that this is just the way
[22:11]some people, you need the inputs to have the output. That's all.
[22:15]I think that's why we're writers and book editors because I mean, the beauty of it is that you're
[22:20]getting exposed to lots of different ideas, topics, you know, cultures like what's happening,
[22:27]like for somebody who, for people like us, we need a lot of, you know, kind of stimulation and
[22:32]have a lot of curiosity to have different things hitting you all at once, right? From all these
[22:37]different sources and it's just, it's very dynamic. And I think then you can thrive in that
[22:42]because that sparks more creativity, more inspiration and more drive. I mean, Joe is the hardest
[22:49]working person I know. And so it's actually really great to be partnered with somebody who is
[22:55]so hardworking because there's, it pushes you in the best possible way, right? There's,
[23:01]and to have a collaboration like this, you do have to have a certain sensibility,
[23:07]write it like a common work ethic or a way to work. Otherwise, you know, it wouldn't work.
[23:13]And so I really appreciate that, Joe and Eric have a very driven type A people on the best
[23:18]possible side. It doesn't work if you're not. Right. I can tell you that firsthand. And I say this
[23:24]all the time. Christine is the only person that I will collaborate with going forward because I think
[23:29]we do come from in each other and then we both have very busy lives. And when one of us needs
[23:34]to drop a ball, the other one picks it up, like there's no questions about it. And I'm never afraid,
[23:39]I'm never afraid to be like, I've got to go on vacation before I've got to sit kid because I know
[23:43]that Christine is always going to be there. I love that you said I've got to go on vacation like
[23:48]it was another thing on your job. You're like, I got it on vacation. Even our vacations are on
[23:55]here to do less. It's stressful to go on vacation because you have to organize so much before you
[24:00]go and then you've got to catch up and you have plans. I don't know. I'm very safe.
[24:04]Yes. But Joe, so what about you? You have another two books of this, you know, are they the same
[24:10]characters? No, different something totally different. Totally different. We just, Christine and I
[24:15]keep coming up with more ideas. So we're like, we'll do this as long as people want to read them. We
[24:20]love, like, we just love writing together. And so we're about a hundred pages deep into an
[24:25]a new novel and then we have an idea for another one. And I'm right now focusing pretty
[24:31]intently on these books, but then also the podcasts. And I don't have three podcasts. I can't
[24:38]keep track of the way simultaneously committed under the influence and I'm launching a new podcast
[24:46]about podcasts, which is the most meta thing that has ever happened in the world.
[24:52]So what do you call it? What do you call it? What do you call it? It's the pod club. It's called
[24:56]the pod club and it launches in December with high heart and it's great. Actually, we'll have to
[25:00]have you on. And then, you know, focusing on, I've got still got two smallish kids. I've got a two
[25:06]year old and a four year old and then they're trying not to let my marriage fall apart. I think
[25:10]that's enough. Maybe we'll get a hamster. Just add one more thing. We happen to have been at
[25:20]Petco this weekend and accidentally picked up a hamster costume for Halloween.
[25:25]That's what you need to stick that. We thought it was my son thought it was a dog costume.
[25:32]Mind you, it's of a hot dog. But you know, we got it in the car crazy that I even let this
[25:37]purchase go through. But I was like, this is it's not going to fit a lab. It's this big. What on earth?
[25:44]Anyway, it's fine. It's all good. So wait for those Instagram pictures.
[25:50]Okay, sorry. We're like, are you running over? What advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[25:55]So my advice that I give a lot is because I, people ask us all the time, they're like,
[26:00]I have a book idea. I have a story idea is I genuinely believe that writing anything is a muscle
[26:08]that you have to develop. Talent is like 10% of it. And so if you have something that you want to
[26:13]write, you really need to commit to it and say, okay, I'm going to start writing 500 words,
[26:18]1000 words, every single day for an entire month. And even if it's terrible, even if it's crap,
[26:24]even if I'm hung over or I have to bang it out on my phone. And if you can't do it nearly all of
[26:30]those days, you probably don't want to do it because this is a job and it is a commitment. And
[26:36]the writing also only gets better when you revisit it every day because that's when the
[26:40]characters live in your head. So that's what I tell people. And some people have gone on to write
[26:44]an entire novel or screenplay after that. And other people mostly men have been like, I'm not a
[26:49]writer. And I'm like, I'm sure not. I do that. So it's a fun time. My advice would be, and this is a
[26:56]PSA for editors and editing is just that, you know, you really need to get feedback on your work.
[27:02]It's really, I mean, as much as you can, you know, sit and write alone and do your 1000 words a day or
[27:07]have you eventually you're going to have to have people read this book. And that getting an
[27:13]objective opinion, um, both just a reaction from people and your circles and readers, but also
[27:19]if you can get a professional assessment or opinion, really, really can help. Is this one thing to
[27:25]write? Solid first draft, but it's another thing to really be committed to refining and refining
[27:30]and refining. And it's really hard to do in a vacuum. And so getting great feedback from other people
[27:37]is just a really good next step, preliminary step wherever you are in a process.
[27:41]We still do. Even though we have each other, even when we were working on this proposal for the
[27:46]next book, even before we get into our agent, we hire an outside editor to read it. And I think
[27:51]it's really important to pay someone to read it too, because all your friends can read it and they're
[27:56]all just going to jool all over you and tell you your grades. They don't want to end your friendship
[28:01]right there. But if you're paying someone, they really couldn't work at the time, which is not to
[28:05]say that you cannot get a book published without paying for it. And if you have the resources,
[28:11]that's great. But I also want people to feel not discouraged that I can't ever get a book
[28:15]published unless I can spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to make it better. And that's
[28:21]not the case, especially in a writing group, where people can give each other, giving feedback
[28:26]to another person can actually just be as beneficial as getting feedback yourself. And so that
[28:32]could be a nice quick profile to partner with somebody and give each other feedback on your work.
[28:38]And then it's great. Yeah, so you have options. I just wrote this essay, because like you
[28:41]like a lot of people have been like, oh, you know, you're in the publishing. What can I do? So I
[28:45]brought this whole on thing because I was like, I can't answer everybody. I'm going to just do it once.
[28:49]Here you go. Here's what I would say to you. But one thing I basically said is like, if you're
[28:53]not comfortable showing it to people to read it, you probably should not be trying to publish your
[28:58]book anyway. Right. Right. Like you should then great. Have a dot, you know, keep it to yourself.
[29:05]Whatever. All right. Thank you guys. This was so fun. Thank you for giving us the honor of the,
[29:12]you know, headline on day before, you know, so, you know, so surreal. So surreal.
[29:27]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't
[29:31]forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[29:36]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibi Owens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[29:41]of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the
[29:46]sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[29:50]now trim music.