Christina Clancy, SHOULDER SEASON: A Novel
[0:01]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast Moms don't have time to read books
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[0:30]Sivi books and now back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids
[0:36]Hi, hi, hello! Enjoy the show
[0:40]If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms don't have time to have kids
[0:46]Here's a little snippet by one of the authors from the anthology
[0:50]My name is Shannon Lee and I'm thrilled to have contributed to Moms don't have time to have kids
[0:56]My essay is called The Anchor and The Seabird and what I really don't have time for is stress
[1:02]It doesn't mean I don't have stress. It just means I don't have time for stress
[1:08]I did an IG live with Christina Clancy about her novel shoulder season
[1:13]She has been on this podcast before and I was really excited to have her back
[1:18]Christina is the author of the second home and of course now shoulder season and her work has appeared in the New York Times
[1:24]The Washington Post, The Sun Magazine and the literary journals including
[1:28]Calimutrain Stories, Hobart, Pleiades, the Minnesota Review and Elsewhere
[1:32]She has a PhD in creative writing from the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee and lives in Madison, Wisconsin
[1:38]Hi! Hi!
[1:40]I'm always so nervous when I join an Instagram live. I'm like, am I doing this right?
[1:44]I know me too. It's not very user friendly and I'm sorry about the stress
[1:48]You like my job is just to calm people down for a while at the beginning of my IG live
[1:52]All my friends, my writer friends, whenever they have a live event with you or an event with you
[1:57]I was like, I'm so nervous. I'm going to talk to Zippy and I'm always like the Zippy Whisperer
[2:01]I'm like, no, she's so great. She's so easy to talk to so I was a nervous at all
[2:05]Oh, good. Well, thank you
[2:08]Nobody's doing nervous diving at me. Oh my gosh, like whatever
[2:11]But you're a powerhouse. You're a powerhouse. Oh, I mean, after day
[2:16]You should have a good news station just for all your news
[2:19]Just wait. Who knows what's going next?
[2:22]A lot of my eye literally had so many ideas that I want to do. I'm like, I can't even I don't even know what to do
[2:28]I just want to keep anyone
[2:32]If only there was more of me
[2:35]I'm just joking. Okay, shoulder season. I read this whole thing in kind of one long long sitting
[2:42]I have to play right. Yes. Yes, and I got so invested in your characters and you know
[2:49]You really kind of sold me on this you know career path
[2:53]I know it was sort of a question mark and you know, Cherry didn't exactly
[2:58]Meet with the most accepting of responses when she decides to do this
[3:02]But she really makes a strong case. So start with what I understand that this is where your your husband grew up and all of that
[3:09]In Troy West Troy, Michigan or whatever tell listeners a little bit more about back story and why you decided to write about this topic
[3:17]Oh, sure. Well, I mean first of all
[3:18]I never would have guessed I would be the person to write about a Playboy money
[3:22]I've never really been that personally interested in Playboy myself
[3:26]But I always knew that there was a Playboy resort in East Troy, Wisconsin
[3:31]Which is just bizarre, you know
[3:32]It's so strange to think that people would that you have to know
[3:36]Whatever even think that he could get into small town America and make it acceptable
[3:41]But one thing that's interesting is that Playboy really has changed over the years
[3:45]You know in 1969 when the resort opened it was considered really classy
[3:49]So people's views it's really fascinating to talk to different people about their impressions of Playboy
[3:55]Because it changes depending on how old people are and what their thoughts are about it
[3:59]But I was I started interviewing some former Playboy buddies because I wanted to have a side character
[4:05]Have have worked there and it was just like for background information
[4:08]And then I started talking to some former women who fit some women who had done that
[4:12]And they were mostly in their 60s
[4:15]And they spoke so lovingly of the job like it was the most fun they ever had
[4:19]They learned so much about men about life
[4:22]It opened up the world to them
[4:24]It was right down the the road from Alpine Valley
[4:26]Which is where Stevie Ray Bond died that big and kind of music amphitheater
[4:30]So I just all of a sudden I didn't care about my other book. I was writing
[4:34]I just wanted to follow that and see like what was it like to be a Playboy bunny?
[4:39]And now that my book is out there
[4:41]I'm actually really shocked that given the ubiquity of Playboy in our culture and how long it's been around
[4:48]Nobody that I know of maybe you you've read something with a Playboy bunny as a protagonist or a character
[4:55]Nobody nobody has approached Playboy and literary fiction ever as far as I know
[5:00]So I mean, I think that says a lot about how judgmental a lot of people are about the jobs that these women had
[5:06]And what I learned is that the women especially the Playboy resort
[5:10]Which was unlike the clubs in every way
[5:12]You know like Playboy bunnies would actually supervise Easter egg hunts
[5:16]They would work in the game room with the children. They would serve hot chocolate when kids were skiing
[5:22]So they just had a really they were drawn from the small towns that were near the resort
[5:27]And they made so much money and in 1981 when this book was set
[5:31]If you're a small town, there's not many other options available to you
[5:35]So I totally respect the decisions that the women made
[5:38]The work was really challenging very hard
[5:41]And I feel like I want to give some props to some of the women who did that
[5:47]You know you also talk about how in the community people were like
[5:51]No, you're going to set women back by taking on this job
[5:54]And Sherry's kind of like how am I propelling women just by working at like an insurance company
[6:00]How was that helping women?
[6:01]And like it's you know, it uses women all the time
[6:04]Like that boss is a terrible guy, you know
[6:06]Why would I do that?
[6:08]And I see what she's saying right like one person's job is not going to change the world
[6:13]But I feel like you know as there is bias now
[6:17]There was by so much bias then and yet
[6:19]Who knew that these were like family amazing resorts like the fact that they were even kids there
[6:25]And at all
[6:27]Whether or not they did the Easter egg that's with the bunnies
[6:29]I mean it was a totally different time than a totally different place
[6:32]And how interesting to get a little glimpse into that
[6:36]I could see why you were so fascinated
[6:38]Yeah, it's just a weird time in our history
[6:41]You know to think about what it was like then
[6:44]I do think that you know back in 1981
[6:47]It's really hard to view the decisions that the women made through the lens of today
[6:51]You know, I think that it really was kind of different
[6:54]But you know women's work is hard in challenging
[6:57]No matter what but I've talked to so many play by bunnies like one of the bunnies
[6:59]I talked to was 20 years old her husband was in prison and she had two kids
[7:04]And she is a wealthy business owner now
[7:07]And she said it's all because she saved the money that she made from working at the resort
[7:11]So she could do something else
[7:13]So in some ways maybe the job did you set back like you know women's progress
[7:18]But but the women who are taking advantage of a bad situation or a bad system
[7:24]Actually used that to their advantage so that they could buy a car
[7:27]They could go to college
[7:29]They could move out of the small town
[7:30]So I have a very complicated nuanced view
[7:33]And I've also learned a lot about Hugh Hefner
[7:36]You'll notice he doesn't get any play in the book
[7:38]You know, he's referenced but he doesn't have a scene
[7:41]Because I wanted to keep the focus on the women who worked for him
[7:45]But she has a complicated legacy too
[7:47]You know, it's just reading about in Miami
[7:48]He bought back a franchise
[7:50]So that he could because he heard that it was segregated
[7:53]And he wanted to make sure it was open people of all colors
[7:55]So you know, he did do some things that were very forward thinking
[7:59]Interesting
[7:59]Now I'd love to have you really explained why all the women were there
[8:03]And had sort of followed all the narratives of many of her friends
[8:06]Val and the girl who her brother had had who had gotten burned
[8:10]And she had to work on me
[8:11]I mean, oh my gosh, some of the stories were just like really poignant
[8:16]And you know, you see, you see why
[8:20]Like what makes people do things?
[8:22]Like I don't know
[8:24]I found all of the stories
[8:27]So the interwoven stories like very compelling
[8:30]And understandable why they would then shove their feet into these like painful shoes
[8:35]With the blisters and they couldn't sit down
[8:37]They couldn't pick things up off the ground
[8:39]And they couldn't bend forward too much
[8:41]And how they had to sort of be constrained
[8:44]By so many things that reminded me of Vegas, honestly
[8:48]It's like it's almost like the bunnies and the resorts
[8:51]Were sort of like a waitress and a Vegas casino today
[8:54]It felt like
[8:55]Yeah, when you think about it, there's still lots of jobs
[8:57]You're like bunnies
[8:59]You know, there's hooters, girls
[9:00]You know, there's definitely positions like that still
[9:02]I mean, it's I'd like to think we've come a lot farther than we actually have
[9:06]But you know, it was it definitely was a reality of their time
[9:09]They took on a lot to do that job
[9:12]I also like how Sherry
[9:15]Sherry or Shelley, I always mixed up this name Sherry
[9:17]Really sort of came into her own
[9:18]Right, she never thought of herself as beautiful
[9:20]She had never had really any confidence in herself or her looks
[9:23]And had been, you know, really sidelined by her mother's illness for a while
[9:27]And just like in that tiny world where
[9:31]It becomes so small when you're just caretaking all the time
[9:34]And had really cut her own life on hold
[9:36]And she's finally like, well, I'm going to take care of myself
[9:38]And you see her like becoming more beautiful, literally
[9:41]As she's sort of, you know, as shedding this layer
[9:44]And the layer of grief
[9:46]I mean, at the end of such a long illness
[9:48]And you have that wonderful scene in the car with her friend
[9:50]Where she's just like
[9:52]She finally lets herself mourn and grieve
[9:55]So tell me about the whole loss
[9:57]Like she's essentially an orphan
[9:59]I mean, she isn't orphan
[10:00]been really. I mean, right. Well, I wanted to have a character who had a very stunted adolescence,
[10:05]because I mean, for myself, even when I was growing up, I never had brothers or anything, and I
[10:09]always thought that men were so mysterious and different from me, like that they were a totally
[10:14]different species. So I was kind of drawing on that feeling that I had when I was growing up too,
[10:19]and I wanted to have a character get a job where she's totally unprepared for everything that's
[10:24]out there for her. And I know readers get really frustrated with Sherry, and that's on purpose.
[10:29]You know, she makes a lot of bad decisions, but she's not in a position to make good decisions
[10:33]necessarily, because she's had no reason to know better. And actually, when you think about it,
[10:38]some of the mistakes she makes end up paying off for her in the end. And if she knew better,
[10:42]she wouldn't have made some of those mistakes that work out. But one of the reasons I wanted to
[10:46]write about Sherry being so inexperienced and making mistakes is really this book is about,
[10:51]I was asked by a bunch of women in their 60s that when I was working on my kind of book that led
[10:56]me to this book. And they said, what are you writing about? And they said, we hope you write about
[11:01]women our age, because we feel like nobody writes about us. They've just write about younger women.
[11:06]And we were talking about how when you get older, the mistakes you make when you're younger,
[11:11]never feel like they're very far away. Like some people never let go. They never move on. So I
[11:16]wanted to have Sherry have something tragic happen that she as she gets into her 60s, she never
[11:21]let's go of it. She just doesn't, she can't give herself permission. So she has to then go back and
[11:26]revisit what she did when she was younger and think about, you know, the stupidness. But I think
[11:32]we've all made mistakes. And the randomness, right, of the series of things that lead to some
[11:37]of the biggest moments in your life and how preventable they can seem in retrospect. And yet
[11:42]that ends up being the thing that defining element could have so easily been otherwise.
[11:48]Right. Yeah. It's hard to talk about some of the things that happen without giving away
[11:51]the big twist. Yeah. I was pretty vague. Right. I thought I was pretty big. You were fine.
[11:57]You know, some of Sherry's interactions with the men, I found myself sort of holding my breath
[12:03]that she would go off. Well, I don't want to give things away. But as she has these encounters,
[12:08]of course, of her tenure and gets herself in situations that, you know, just made me so nervous.
[12:15]I felt like some other head and sort of watching her and being like, oh my gosh, don't go there
[12:19]and don't go on that. And you see men sort of in different roles and how they can exploit women
[12:28]or they can be kind or they can, you know, all these different ways when the man sort of has
[12:33]the power in that situation. So tell me a little bit about that and how you decided which interactions
[12:38]to have with which types of men, like how you how users scope that out. Well, you know, it's
[12:44]interesting. When I was working on the second home, one of my friends, Jay Ryan Straddle, who brought
[12:48]Lager Queen's Minnesota, our Lager Queen of Minnesota, he read an early draft of it. And I have
[12:54]a villain in the second home. And he said, make sure your villain isn't too much of a straw man
[12:58]because men are complicated just like women and, you know, I kind of flesh him out. And thanks to him
[13:03]like the second home is actually going to become a TV series. And it was off. And yeah, it was
[13:08]offered by Nikolai Kosterwald out from Game of Thrones, who wanted a part where he could play
[13:13]a villain who was complicated. So that totally paid off that advice. But I was mindful of that
[13:19]when I was writing this book, because I thought I want to show men as complicated just the way
[13:23]women are complicated. You know, some of the bunnies that we meet, you know, like we think that
[13:27]is going to be so horrible. We think Mitch is going to be this terrible guy, you know, like the
[13:31]different people that we meet end up maybe not being quite as bad as we think. And so when I finished
[13:37]my first draft of it, I sent it to my editor. And she said, you know what this book really is doing
[13:42]is it's exploring our multitudes. You know, we're not all bad. We're not all good. And I think that's
[13:47]like that's what I try to do with my fiction. I try to present, you know, especially like everyone talks
[13:52]about cancel culture. But people are complicated. They can do bad things. But does that mean that we
[13:56]have to write them off? Like we can sometimes just think more holistically about what led them to make
[14:02]the decisions they make, what they're capable, how much they can change. So that was my goal with
[14:08]Wow. So are you involved back to the TV thing for two seconds? Are you involved with the like
[14:13]adaptation or what's what's that been like for you? I don't think I'll be that involved. I think
[14:18]that the debut writers, my agent said, you know, they usually you don't have as much say with the
[14:23]TV series. And you know, I've been paying close attention. You know, just like when I read now
[14:28]now that I'm a writer, I think I like read a book the way an x-ray technician reads an x, right?
[14:34]You know, you think about the story, but you also, I'm sure you do this all the time too.
[14:38]You think about, well, how is the structure? How are they getting away with telling the story?
[14:42]So I've been watching TV series. And I think he was inspired a lot by big little lies by the
[14:47]role that Andrew Sarskard plays with Nicole Kidman. And that's he plays her husband in the show.
[14:52]And I've been watching that show and thinking about how is that structured? And it's like you
[14:57]have one big question, one dramatic question that the series follows. But then each of the six
[15:02]episodes has its own arc. And so I don't know that that's in my wheelhouse to write like that
[15:08]yet. I think I need to learn that. I think I have a lot of humility thinking that television is
[15:12]totally different beast. That was also like the best show. I mean, wasn't it great? I mean,
[15:19]I usually don't watch very much TV. And I've been really enchanted by a lot of the shows lately.
[15:24]Yeah, Marabees town and white lotus. I had so much fun with love. So good.
[15:31]And last night, I actually hardly ever watched TV, but I was like just trying to get my mind on
[15:36]things. And I watched scenes from a marriage. Have you seen that on HBO? No, no, yeah. Oh, wait,
[15:41]it seems from marriage. The one with a couple that's breaking up. It's with Jessica Chastin.
[15:45]Oh, no, I haven't seen that one. Like good. It's like you literally are in someone else's
[15:49]a German. I don't know. It was like, I love these sort of like relationships. And I'm thinking of myself
[15:54]nothing's really happening, but this is like every day, you know. Oh, that sounds great. That
[15:58]reminds me of a line Jerry Durson, one of the characters in Shoulders season with Sherry's making
[16:02]some conclusions about him. And he's like, never assume you know what goes on inside someone else's
[16:08]marriage. So yeah, actually, I felt like, you know, the sound toky. I felt like the town of
[16:13]Eastroy or Westroy, whatever it is, was also a character in the book. Because you see that
[16:17]developing alongside the characters and what happens with, you know, I mean, Michigan and the whole
[16:23]culture of, you know, all of it. And what happens with the town square and, you know, it's so
[16:29]interesting how towns grow up alongside their inhabitants as well. Yeah. And I think it's the way
[16:34]people see it. You know, I wanted to, it's actually was handsome, but I wanted to have Sherry, you know,
[16:40]like most people from small towns, they think they're too big for their town. And they want to leave.
[16:44]But I, I am completely enchanted with Eastroy. I, you know, I was watching this episode of
[16:49]The Bachelor on Chris Sewals was the star and going back to her television conversation this
[16:54]years ago, but he was from a farm. And I remember I, I watched that episode and when the ladies
[17:00]arrived for the home date, they played horror music, literally horror music. And I was like,
[17:06]you know, if you're from the Midwest, farms are actually really beautiful. You know, there's,
[17:10]it's, it's really gorgeous here. I mean, rolling hills and, you know, these glacial
[17:14]kettle moorings. And I wanted to actually be almost like a tour guide and show that Sherry could
[17:20]take, take for granted what was right under her nose. But Eastroy has summer camps and like history
[17:25]of mobsters, like Al Capone would hang out in that area and hide slot machines. And it's really
[17:30]close to Chicago. So you have that infusion. So I think it's a, it's a beautiful, interesting place.
[17:36]So I, you know, just like I wanted to show that there's more to being a playboy bunny than people
[17:41]there's also more to a small town than people think. Right. You have a line that he said,
[17:46]Sherry's mother once told her that when you're young, you have good days and bad days,
[17:50]but when you're older, you have good years and bad years. So this is totally off topic. But is
[17:55]there a year of yours that was sort of a bad year? Oh, well, I think like for, although I can't really
[18:01]say that the COVID was a bad year, like you had a, I'm sure that you had a really bad year day,
[18:05]like knowing what happened in your life, like that would stand out for me. I didn't have any
[18:10]personal loss from COVID and my kids were grown. So it wasn't as horrible. And my book came out
[18:15]and even though it wasn't exactly, I said it was kind of like the Edgar Eager book, Half Magic,
[18:20]where the kids, I don't know if your kids ever read those books, but like where they find
[18:23]half of Magic coin and every wish they make they get half of it. So I felt like last year,
[18:28]it was kind of like a half magic year for me because I was fun to have my book come out and then
[18:31]finish my other book and get that out. But I think a hard year was the year I graduated from
[18:36]college. Like my dad died that year and Jerry Dursan in the book is kind of inspired by my dad,
[18:41]like I give him a little bit more life there. And there's a sense of loss, you know, where you
[18:46]feel like you lose that structure in your life and you're not quite sure what to have happen and
[18:50]it broke up with my boyfriend. And as bad as that year was, it really helped reshape me. You know,
[18:56]I think sometimes those bad years end up becoming good years later, you know, you learn a lot from
[19:01]them and develop kind of a second spine from going through those hardships.
[19:06]Well, amazing. So when you how long did this take to write?
[19:10]Well, so it's fun because you have your own publishing company now. So you're probably going to be
[19:15]the person telling people to do this, but I had a two-book contract. So I had to write my second
[19:20]book in a year. So I was a little arrogant to be honest. I was like, even though it took me forever
[19:25]to write the second home, I was like, I can do this. No problem. And then I walked into a door and got
[19:30]a concussion. So I know so for like two months, I couldn't even look at words like they'd
[19:35]float up off the page. It was terrible. But you know in retrospect, I think that helped because it
[19:42]forced me to slow down and think and I got to talk to people and hear their stories and just kind of
[19:49]like marinade and the ideas that I was kind of working on. And I think that's how I made that deadline.
[19:55]I mean, it definitely it was great to work with an editor. My editor Sarah Canton, that's
[20:00]Martin's Presses could not be smarter or better to work with.
[20:03]Like she had great feedback.
[20:05]She was really great about helping me focus on
[20:08]like what story are you trying to tell?
[20:10]And this is Sherry's coming of age story.
[20:12]And that really helped me like streamline my thoughts
[20:15]around it because before I had all these side stories
[20:18]and little dramas and they didn't really need to be there.
[20:21]So that helped.
[20:22]So it was helpful to have an editor definitely
[20:24]through that period.
[20:25]I'm really lucky that I had that.
[20:27]I think you're one of the first people to say
[20:28]that a concussion ended up being a really good thing.
[20:31]So I love you.
[20:32]Well, yeah, I mean, have you ever had to do this?
[20:34]Have you ever had your earring?
[20:36]Not really.
[20:37]Although it was the worst part,
[20:38]because after I hit my head,
[20:39]it was like a bell going off in my head constantly.
[20:42]And I'm so lucky it went away.
[20:43]I wasn't sure what I thought.
[20:45]How am I going to care my earring constantly
[20:47]for the rest of my life?
[20:49]Oh, gosh, I'm sorry.
[20:51]Oh, that's the theme for today
[20:54]is turning bad things and the good things.
[20:56]Bad things and the lemonade.
[20:58]Exactly.
[20:59]My husband was telling me that lemons actually
[21:01]aren't even a naturally occurring fruit
[21:03]that they were bred between different fruits
[21:07]to manufacture the lemon.
[21:09]I don't know.
[21:09]Oh, that's your path.
[21:11]But we were having a lemon's
[21:13]to lemonade conversation and he told me that.
[21:15]No, no, every time I say lemon's to lemonade, I'll be fine.
[21:18]But who knew?
[21:20]So what are you working on now?
[21:22]Now I'm working on a book that's set in 1927
[21:26]at Lakeside Resort.
[21:28]It's really interesting.
[21:29]It's in the 1880s, all these people from Chicago
[21:32]is gilded age.
[21:33]They call it the new part of the Midwest
[21:35]is Lake Geneva where I was told their season set.
[21:37]So there's all these amazing estates
[21:39]from the regleys and so on.
[21:40]And in there, or along the lake, is a compound
[21:45]that of 10 houses, there's five on each side
[21:47]and that these beautiful cute old Victorian cottages
[21:50]that are painted white with green roofs.
[21:52]And in the middle is a clubhouse.
[21:53]And I saw this compound and I read about it
[21:57]and they said when it was started,
[21:59]they built the compound or they built the houses
[22:01]without kitchens so that the people who
[22:03]summer there would have to take every meal in the clubhouse.
[22:08]And not only that, but the people who summered there
[22:10]all lived on the same block on the same street in Chicago.
[22:13]And it was like the middle of COVID.
[22:15]And I was with my family all the time.
[22:18]I was listening to my husband click a spoon against the bowl
[22:20]and chew almonds and thinking I was going to die.
[22:23]And I was like, what if you're with all these people
[22:26]all the time you can't even escape in the summer
[22:28]and what if you don't like them?
[22:30]So I always tell people that a lot of people
[22:34]will say, a novel comes from an anecdote.
[22:37]And they'll say, oh, this thing happened to me.
[22:38]You should write about it.
[22:39]This should be your next novel.
[22:41]But that's not really where novels come from.
[22:43]They usually come from a question.
[22:45]And so for me, the question is, what
[22:46]if you're around all these people all the time
[22:48]and you don't like one of them?
[22:50]So that's what's kind of compelling this new book.
[22:53]But it's really research heavy because it's set in 1927.
[22:57]I read that Bill Bryson book, 1927.
[22:59]And it made me want to set a book there.
[23:01]And now I'm reading a more tolls, the age of civility
[23:04]or rule of disability.
[23:06]Oh my gosh, loved rules of civility.
[23:08]That is a, I mean, that's just a remarkable book.
[23:11]And the writing is so good.
[23:13]So that's a great model for me to just think about,
[23:16]you know how I was saying the x-ray thing?
[23:17]Like I'm totally taking that book apart as I read it.
[23:20]So I'm about three quarters of the way through.
[23:23]And so I'm pressed.
[23:24]Okay, so advice for aspiring authors.
[23:27]You know, I think that I hear a lot of aspiring writers
[23:30]say that they think they're bad writers.
[23:33]And I think they give up on themselves too soon.
[23:36]You know, I think that writing is necessarily really hard.
[23:39]And it's really frustrating.
[23:41]I know you've had my friend Lauren Fox on your interview
[23:43]and hers, you wrote son for me.
[23:45]And we're in a writing group together.
[23:47]And we spend a lot of our time texting each other
[23:49]about just how hard it is.
[23:51]And I think we need to remind each other
[23:53]that that's part of the process,
[23:54]that it's totally normal,
[23:56]that it doesn't mean you're a bad writer.
[23:57]It just means it's a lot more work
[23:59]than you think it's gonna be.
[24:01]So with that in mind, I think I'd say like,
[24:03]try to keep your head in your manuscript as much as you can.
[24:07]You know, because I think if you put it away
[24:09]or you start thinking that it's bad,
[24:11]then you might lose energy and momentum.
[24:13]But if you can just look at it every day,
[24:15]think about the characters,
[24:16]immerse yourself in that world.
[24:17]That really helps you stay with it
[24:20]and keep writing and knowing
[24:22]that it's just gonna be a lot of hard work,
[24:24]a lot of revision and getting rid of stuff.
[24:27]And it doesn't mean you're bad at writing.
[24:29]If you have to cut everything you've written.
[24:31]Like Stephen King has this great line where he says,
[24:34]something like it's, he doesn't get to page one
[24:36]until he's gotten to page 300.
[24:38]You know, and I think that's what it's like
[24:39]for a lot of writers.
[24:40]You just, you know, the first draft,
[24:43]you're just telling yourself the story.
[24:44]Like the book I'm working on right now,
[24:46]I'm 137 pages in.
[24:48]And I wouldn't be surprised
[24:49]if I just started all over again.
[24:50]I didn't first person and trash it all.
[24:52]Amazing.
[24:53]Good advice, good advice.
[24:55]Just part this.
[24:56]All part of the process.
[24:57]Yeah.
[24:58]Well, Chris, thank you so much.
[24:59]Thanks for coming.
[24:59]Should we see the night of this came out a while ago
[25:01]and we're, I don't know why we're doing this today,
[25:02]but here we are.
[25:03]And, well, it is shoulder season now.
[25:06]So it's actually perfect.
[25:07]Yeah, there we go.
[25:08]Cause you didn't do know what shoulder season is.
[25:11]Have you heard that phrase?
[25:12]It's like the time between,
[25:14]between something and something else.
[25:16]Yeah, between peak and off peak.
[25:18]Yeah.
[25:19]We've worked on a number of levels.
[25:20]Cause, and so right now technically
[25:22]is kind of we're heading into shoulder season
[25:24]or in it.
[25:25]So there was a reason.
[25:26]Yeah.
[25:27]And you know, so be truly congratulations
[25:28]on everything you're doing.
[25:29]And I'm really excited.
[25:31]One of my friends here in Madison,
[25:32]just such, she has a book coming out with you next year
[25:35]or in 23.
[25:36]So I'm just, I'm thrilled for everything you're doing.
[25:39]And I think writers are so lucky to be able to work with you
[25:42]and readers are going to have some awesome new books
[25:44]to read.
[25:45]So.
[25:46]Thank you.
[25:48]I'm really excited.
[25:49]It'll be great.
[25:49]We're excited for you.
[25:51]You're one of those people you wrote for.
[25:52]Cause, I mean, I mean, you wrote my book.
[25:54]It was great.
[25:55]All right, well, Christina, thank you.
[25:57]I can't hear you anymore.
[25:57]I don't know why, but thanks for coming on.
[26:00]And we'll stay in touch.
[26:02]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[26:04]Don't have time to read books.
[26:06]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram,
[26:08]at Zebie Owens and at Moms.
[26:09]Don't have time to read books.
[26:11]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebieowens.com
[26:14]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:15]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:18]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[26:19]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[26:22]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:23]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.