Amor Towles, THE LINCOLN HIGHWAY: A Novel
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[1:00]And what I really don't have time for is making time for self-care.
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[1:06]A more towels is the author of the Lincoln Highway.
[1:09]He is the author of the New York Times Best Sellers Rules of Sivility, which I adored and a gentleman in Moscow.
[1:17]The two novels have collectively sold more than 4 million copies and have been translated into more than 30 languages.
[1:23]Tails lives in Manhattan with his wife and two children.
[1:26]Welcome, Amore.
[1:27]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to read books to discuss the Lincoln Highway and all of your work and everything else.
[1:34]Thanks to B. Thanks for having me.
[1:35]I have to tell you that I read the Rules of Sivility with my book club years ago when it first came out and still it remains one of my favorite books.
[1:44]So good, so amazing.
[1:46]And then I actually, I wouldn't saw you speak somewhere related to that book ages ago.
[1:50]This is like embarrassing now that I'm like stalking you.
[1:52]But anyway, I was such a huge super fan and now have like been following along with you.
[1:56]So I'm delighted to get to talk to you about this book.
[1:58]Great, terrific.
[1:59]Yes.
[2:00]Okay, the Lincoln Highway.
[2:01]Would you mind just telling listeners a little more about what it's about and how you came up with the idea for this book?
[2:08]The Lincoln Highway, sort of the background is before our story begins as it were.
[2:13]And honorable young Nebraska goes to the county fair with his little brother.
[2:19]A bully picks a fight with him at the fair.
[2:21]He punches the bully.
[2:22]The bully falls back, hits his head and dies.
[2:25]As a result, Emmet, our hero is sentenced to 18 months in a juvenile work form.
[2:31]The book opens on the day that Emmet has been released and the warden is driving him home to Nebraska.
[2:39]In the meantime, Emmet's mother is long gone.
[2:43]But in the meantime, while he was away, his father has passed away and the family farm has gone into foreclosure.
[2:49]And the warden is saying to Emmet that he's an honorable young man that's what happened at the fair was a freak accident that he has paid his debt to society.
[2:59]So what he really should do is be prepared to start his life anew.
[3:03]Emmet says that's exactly what his intentions to do.
[3:06]Pick up his younger brother, get in his car and head west to start his adulthood as it were.
[3:12]But when the warden drives away, it turns out the two young friends from the work farm form have hidden themselves in the trunk of the warden's car.
[3:20]And they have a very different vision for Emmet's future.
[3:25]So as a result, instead of piling in the car and heading west, Emmet is a little brother and his two friends end up heading east.
[3:32]I'm going to Lincoln Highway towards New York City with everything going awry.
[3:37]So this is kind of the way the story begins, which and it's in cool story in the last 10 days.
[3:43]And it takes place in June of 1954.
[3:46]I have to say when I first heard about the story.
[3:49]I wasn't imagining the inmates. I wasn't thinking that one of them was going to be like a trust fund kid from the upper east side, which is sort of where I am right now.
[3:57]You know, and when you know, Duchess County and all of this stuff, like it just I was surprised by your the fall from grace and how they got there and how that sort of reverberates and a lot of your stories.
[4:10]People who have come from wealth or who are going, you know, falling from their stations, even the dad himself, right?
[4:17]People from boring school get themselves into trouble all the time.
[4:21]Where are you? Where is this? Where are you right now?
[4:24]I'm in New York City, but actually like three feet away. My son is here from boarding school right now.
[4:29]So, tell me to keep out of trouble.
[4:32]I, you know, I mean, I, I've spent, I don't go to the Hamptons, but certainly there are young people in the Hamptons getting themselves troubled too.
[4:39]So, you know, I think if you look at a juvenile program, it may be a mix. And just as if you went to a rehab program, it may have a mix of kids from a very different walks of life.
[4:50]And so that yes, one of the things that happens in this story is three kids who might never have come to know each other in the course of a normal life.
[4:59]The mistakes that each of the three have made has put them in that position where they suddenly meet each other, come to know each other, become friends and their fates become a little bit more intertwined.
[5:08]Yes.
[5:09]It is always so random. The people you end up being crossing your paths with different arenas, not necessarily in the trunk of a car, but you know, I was also really interested in how Emmet sort of decided to become a carpenters apprentice and that he couldn't deal with how out of control it was to be a farmer.
[5:31]And you had to be so dependent on the weather and all these things. And then he decided to apprentice to earn extra money with a carpenter and the way he conceptualized both those professions that he didn't have to worry, all the things that are plagued his father and his family.
[5:46]Like if you are a carpenter, you're always going to have work. Like you don't have to worry.
[5:50]So I just thought for someone from such a young age that was a very interesting insight. So tell me a little bit about that.
[5:56]Well, I suppose the bigger context in what you're describing is really the book is about three 18 year old boys roughly a 19 year old young woman.
[6:06]There's an eight year old two who plays a critical part of the story, but if you think about those four figures who are all around 18 19 20 years old.
[6:14]That's a point in your life or in our lives that is kind of universally. It's a sort of interesting moment because if you think about our lives between zero and 16.
[6:26]That's a period where we are receiving all kinds of input instruction council in from our parents from school from our church from the community around us.
[6:41]Whatever shared values or community has all of them are constantly, you know, speaking to young people before the age of 16, providing them advice guidance telling them stories and then one form another.
[6:56]And all this is really to shape the young individual and to define help define who they are and how they view right and wrong where they're where they draw their lines.
[7:08]What they think is possible for themselves, what they think is essential to do, you know, all these things are being passed to us.
[7:15]In 2018, and suddenly the compass spins as it were and those suddenly we realize as young 17, 18, 19 year olds, wait, you know, I can I can make my own decisions about who I am about what I want to do with my life about what is right and wrong.
[7:34]If you take that transition either consciously or unconsciously both happen, we take all those inputs from our youth and we amplify some and we discard others.
[7:45]You know, and there are kids who very self consciously want to be like their father, let's say a son wants to be like father, there are kids who very self consciously reject their father's choices.
[7:57]It's an honorable person, they didn't have to say, you know, the life that my father has chosen is alien to me an athlete and I, you know, I would no sooner do X than, you know, then jump off a cliff.
[8:09]So you can have both sort of moments occur.
[8:11]And yes, they all three of the young men in this case, and Sally, the young woman too.
[8:16]They are at that moment in their lives and they are very conscious of the lives that their parents lead and they have inherited both problems and wisdom from their parents to varying degrees and they are defining their lives in contrast in some cases.
[8:33]So, yes, for Emmett being raised in a farm by a father who wasn't a natural farmer and seeing the ongoing struggles that that has created for him and that they've had to share as a family.
[8:44]It's very natural for him to be like, not this is not for me.
[8:48]And so, you know, but as I say, that's just sort of a part of the bigger mosaic of individual decision making at that point and the story.
[8:55]Investing it's many different kinds of decisions that the young characters are making in a similar type of context.
[9:02]Yes, this is how I feel about going into finance, by the way, like I would rather be, I would rather be nailing.
[9:10]I have a family in finance, so I'm like, you know, let me just read books all day. Thank you very much.
[9:18]Didn't you have a background in finance and did I make that up? Can you start out that way?
[9:22]20 years in the investment business, yes.
[9:24]That's what I thought.
[9:26]And I saw pictures by the way in your Instagram of the Lincoln highway and I didn't realize how well, you know, the way it was paved like even today, it still has bricks and all of that like that was such a visually arresting image.
[9:40]Is that really that's, do you know what I'm talking about or not?
[9:43]The Lincoln highway, which the book draws its the name from is was is the first highway that crossed America.
[9:52]So in the early 20th century as the car was was gaining in popularity across the country, the vast majority.
[10:00]roads in the United States were first of all, were unpaved.
[10:02]And so the dirt roads, which were okay
[10:08]for horses in rain, proved to be more difficult for cars.
[10:12]So cars would have difficulty navigating these roads
[10:15]if they got to became muddy, for instance.
[10:17]But in addition, the roads weren't really designed
[10:19]for long distance travel.
[10:20]They were designed to get you from the farm into a town
[10:23]or from the train depot to your house.
[10:26]And that's what roads were forcefully spiderwebed out
[10:29]from townships and municipalities.
[10:32]What they weren't really designed to do
[10:33]was to go from, say, Boston to Salt Lake City.
[10:36]You know, there was nobody was doing that.
[10:38]And there was no, if you wanted to go
[10:39]for Boston to Salt Lake City, you took a train
[10:41]and you certainly didn't take a carriage.
[10:43]So or a car.
[10:45]So an American entrepreneur by the name of Carl Fisher
[10:48]who believed that Americans, now that they had cars,
[10:51]would want to see their country
[10:54]and should see their country, decided
[10:57]that he would build a paved road
[11:01]that crossed the country from the Atlantic Ocean
[11:04]to the Pacific Ocean, specifically from Times Square
[11:06]to San Francisco.
[11:08]At the time, the federal government
[11:09]wasn't involved in road making it all.
[11:11]And so it ended up being a private venture.
[11:13]He raised money from the public and barnstorm
[11:16]to raise money and eventually raised enough money,
[11:18]whatever it today's terms, millions of dollars.
[11:21]And the road was built.
[11:22]Now, the reason I go through all this
[11:24]is because it's not like they had one crew
[11:27]who started in Times Square
[11:28]and paved the roads slowly across the nation,
[11:31]300 miles later.
[11:33]But of course they did is his notion was
[11:35]we're gonna raise money all across the country
[11:37]and the individual counties
[11:40]in which the road is gonna cut through
[11:42]will be a part of, you know, they'll take over their zone,
[11:46]you know, so simultaneous groups would be building a road
[11:50]all across the country, county by county yet.
[11:52]You know, once it was, once the line was drawn
[11:56]and where it was gonna be.
[11:57]Now, so that meant that to some degree the roads,
[12:01]how they were made, did differ from place to place.
[12:04]And in Omaha, Nebraska, there is a stretch,
[12:07]which has, you know, which has not been tinkered with
[12:09]for 100 years, really.
[12:11]And that, yes, a photograph is there's,
[12:13]oh my, I just put some Instagram account recently.
[12:16]That is a brick, a brick segment.
[12:20]Now, that's not a coincidence.
[12:22]It's because, and it's a red brick road,
[12:24]it's not a yellow brick road,
[12:25]but it's not a coincidence
[12:26]because you actually go not far from there
[12:28]to, for instance, Aurora, Nebraska,
[12:30]which is right in the middle of Nebraska,
[12:33]there were brick works in those counties.
[12:36]And so, you know, they didn't have cobblestones,
[12:38]they had bricks and that was a very easy thing
[12:40]to, you know, sort of the notion of world use bricks.
[12:43]If you go to Aurora, Nebraska today,
[12:46]the downtown area around the town hall,
[12:49]all the streets are brick, you know,
[12:51]in that specific, you know, area.
[12:54]So it's not as if the Lincoln Highway was brick
[12:56]from the beginning to end.
[12:57]It's just that in that segment, it was brick
[13:00]and, and for whatever reason,
[13:01]that little segment has not been touched for 100 years.
[13:05]So it is kind of a, it's a fun sort of little window
[13:07]on how, on what that segment of road looked like.
[13:10]Oh, oh my gosh, I love that.
[13:12]I just wanted to read this one part about Emmit
[13:15]and when he finds something special
[13:18]from his father tucked away in the car
[13:21]and it was, it's about books themselves.
[13:24]So I just wanted to read this thing
[13:25]about how he doesn't approve,
[13:27]or his dad had never approved of ripping out books
[13:30]and then here's a page.
[13:31]He said, his father made painfully clear that night
[13:33]to deface the pages of a book
[13:34]was to adopt the manner of a visit off.
[13:36]It was to strike a blow against the most sacred
[13:38]and noble of man's achievements,
[13:40]the ability to set down his finest ideas and sentiments
[13:43]so that they might be shared through the ages.
[13:46]For his father to tear a page from any book
[13:48]was sacrilege.
[13:49]What was even more shocking was that the page was torn
[13:51]from Ralph Waldo Emerson's essays
[13:53]that book which his father held in greater steam
[13:56]than any other.
[13:57]So is this something you share?
[13:59]Do you have a feeling about ripping pages out of books?
[14:02]Like was this the thing in your family too?
[14:04]Well, you know, my books are in invention.
[14:06]So no, so they are not expressions
[14:08]of my family behavior.
[14:11]I was just wondering if that stemmed from anywhere.
[14:13]That that was my one personal question.
[14:15]And that story, Emmett got in trouble
[14:17]for defacing a book and was sent home
[14:19]by the principal and essence of his father was curious.
[14:21]That did not happen to me.
[14:23]So, but you know, of course, I think we all,
[14:25]most of us witnessed some version of that at some point
[14:29]in our lives.
[14:30]I think it's probably a pretty universal situation
[14:31]where an elementary school as some kid starts
[14:33]drying in the books.
[14:34]And you know, a particularly traditional teacher
[14:36]will be furious and say, you know,
[14:38]what are you doing?
[14:38]You can't be drawing in the books, you know?
[14:40]And not allowed.
[14:41]So, you know, somewhere along the way,
[14:43]somebody expresses to us the elevated importance
[14:46]of books and taking care of books
[14:47]and show it, you know, sharing the respect
[14:49]of whether it's a librarian or a parent or as I say,
[14:52]you know, a teacher.
[14:53]And so, no, that was not a family thing,
[14:55]but I think it's probably a universal moment.
[14:58]But yes, the main, I liked sort of the contrast there
[15:01]that the father wants to, you know,
[15:03]he's since the farmers in foreclosure,
[15:05]he doesn't have much to leave his son.
[15:07]And so, you know, he leaves some advice
[15:10]and he leaves some advice from his hero,
[15:12]Ralph Waldo Emerson, the great American
[15:15]middle of the 19th century Reverend S.A.S. and philosopher.
[15:20]That's what he leaves, you know, and as Emma says,
[15:22]you know, here's a guy he both loved Emerson,
[15:25]prized the book, hated the defacing of books
[15:28]and yet tore out this, you know, passage, you know,
[15:31]before he died to give a son.
[15:32]And therefore it kind of has sort of the weight
[15:34]of all these things behind it, you know,
[15:36]it's something that you should take all the more seriously
[15:39]for the fact that it, that for his father to do it,
[15:41]you know, it was contrary even to his own normal rules.
[15:45]It must be an important passage.
[15:47]And, you know, of course, in the way of the books,
[15:50]Emmett's ability to understand that passage
[15:53]at that point in the story is very different
[15:55]than his ability to understand that passage
[15:57]at the end of the story.
[15:58]And, you know, I'll leave that for others
[16:00]to figure out on their own.
[16:01]That, that, that.
[16:03]Yes.
[16:05]I also, I watched the video you posted somewhere
[16:08]I saw somewhere about, you're very different books.
[16:10]And obviously all three have been quite different
[16:13]in terms of form and character and everything.
[16:15]And you go into why, why did some take place
[16:18]over multiple decades, whereas some take place over 10 days
[16:21]or in a summer or whatever.
[16:22]And even different time periods and types of people.
[16:26]And it sounded like you are just, it's like you're,
[16:30]you're like a master craftsman who has to try
[16:32]a new challenge each time, right?
[16:34]That's the way it's like you wanted to hone your craft
[16:37]by trying different things.
[16:39]So tell me about that and why you see it working so well
[16:43]to sort of jump time periods or form out of structure
[16:46]and, and what your plans are from here.
[16:48]All right, now for first of all,
[16:50]I don't think of myself as a master craftsman,
[16:53]but I do think of myself as a crafts person
[16:54]or whatever you want to put it.
[16:56]But, you know, different writers are trying to achieve
[16:58]different things and they're writing and, and sometimes
[17:00]trying to achieve different things in different books.
[17:02]And, but yes, as a novelist, I am very interested
[17:07]in how elements of craft can be used
[17:10]to achieve different types of narratives
[17:13]and different types of outcomes artistically and philosophically.
[17:17]So when, you know, from my standpoint,
[17:20]when you shift a story for, you know, a decade
[17:24]and you shift the focus from, you know, one age group
[17:27]to another and you shift the center focus of the story
[17:31]from, you know, a happy event to a tragic event
[17:34]or whatever these little elements are
[17:35]that distinguish one from story from another.
[17:38]For me, one part of the thing that's interesting
[17:39]about that is a challenge is that, is that virtually
[17:42]that every element of craft should change along
[17:45]with those simple facts, you know, and so meaning that,
[17:49]you know, to tell these two different stories,
[17:51]one that say, and then let's say it's, you know,
[17:52]like this story in the mid fifties.
[17:54]If this story were, you know, 13 years later,
[17:57]15, 14 years later, it was 1968
[17:59]and you still had an 18 year old,
[18:01]what a radically different tone and poetics
[18:05]you would need to bring to bear to tell that story
[18:09]because, you know, life for an 18 year old in America,
[18:11]1968, you got the Vietnam War,
[18:14]you've got, you're on the verge of Woodstock,
[18:15]you've got rock and roll, is booming,
[18:18]you've got, you know, counter culture,
[18:19]you've got free love movement in San Francisco,
[18:22]you know, you got a lot of going on,
[18:25]and, you know, which is not happening in 1954,
[18:28]you're not even a generation before,
[18:29]half a generation before, it's a completely different
[18:31]landscape, and so in tackling a story
[18:35]about an 18 year old, neither one of those moments in time,
[18:37]as I say, the vocabulary would clearly be different,
[18:41]but so would the semantics and so would the imagery
[18:45]and so would how the poetics, the poetics work
[18:48]and the tone of the dialogue would be different,
[18:50]how settings would describe would be different,
[18:53]the pace of the book might be different.
[18:55]Certainly the themes the center are gonna be different
[18:58]and that's gonna reverberate back through how the language
[19:01]is chosen and formed.
[19:02]So yes, as a writer, what I think is interesting is
[19:06]when you turn that dial, how you reinvent
[19:11]all these elements of craft, your dialogue,
[19:13]your setting, your characterization,
[19:15]your communication of ideas, your metaphors,
[19:18]and allegories, and illusions, and similes,
[19:20]and all these various elements of poetics,
[19:21]how do you retool them for this story of these people
[19:26]at this time?
[19:27]And that's, you know, part of the fun for me,
[19:29]and I hopefully fun for the readers
[19:31]so that, you know, if someone's a fan of a gentleman,
[19:33]Moscow rules the civility,
[19:35]I think they will find that the Lincoln Highway
[19:37]is clearly my book, they will recognize it as my work,
[19:42]but they will also see that quite quickly
[19:45]that artistically speaking, it's very different
[19:47]than the other two, just as they were different
[19:49]from each other and that that, you know,
[19:51]hopefully is something that they'll enjoy
[19:53]that experience and difference.
[19:55]Interesting, so what's your next one gonna be?
[19:58]Different.
[19:59]Yeah.
[20:00]Is that, that's it. No more. No more. Okay. What made you go from the world to finance
[20:07]to writing? And then now that you're here, what advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[20:12]Well, I've been writing since I was a kid. So I wrote fiction and I went to school and
[20:17]college and graduate school. So really that's the thing I've been doing all my life.
[20:20]And my childhood friends, what they find surprising is that I was the investment business for 20
[20:24]years. You know, that's what shocks them. But so, you know, I'm not, I'm not a great
[20:29]thought for advice, you know, source for advice. But for me, for me, what worked for me was
[20:35]basically read, write, repeat. You know, so from the time I was in first grade, I would read
[20:40]something and if it grabbed me, I'd read more of it. And then I would probably start writing
[20:47]in some fashion drawing from what I just read as an experiment or as feverie or whatever you
[20:53]want to call it. And that just sort of that began around the time I was in first grade and continued
[20:58]right through today. I'm constantly reading books with the interest, not only of enjoying them,
[21:04]but of understanding how they work and how an author approaches their craft, how they realize
[21:10]their intrinsic mission of their books and that inevitably influences me. You know, and shapes kind
[21:17]of how I might, it's one thing I get to carry into the next project is how that person did
[21:24]that. I'm not copying people. I mean, I make it sound like that. But I'm 57. So I'm talking about
[21:29]after decades of reading, you know, you've accumulated a large vocabulary of how different styles of
[21:36]storytelling, different approaches to storytelling. And that helps me when I set out an
[21:41]invented idea and I have to start thinking about how do I tell this? I can draw on this
[21:46]sort of longstanding awareness of different types of storytelling that might serve
[21:54]the purposes of this, too. Very interesting. Well, I feel like one of the things that you do
[21:58]particularly well is developing your characters and how real they become and how quickly you're
[22:02]able to introduce us to them. Like we feel like you get to know them very quickly with just a few
[22:08]details or a few sentences that they say, you know, within a page or two, like I totally got to know
[22:15]Duchess, right? Like that's who that person is. I know the backstory, he's funny, like it's all the
[22:20]things. Like it's just, it's very impressive because sometimes it takes a while to get to know
[22:25]people. I don't know. So I feel like that's one of the most vivid things in your writing.
[22:30]I appreciate you saying that, but I'm glad that you're experienced, but because that's certainly
[22:34]the intention. I think that one of the elements of the novel that are most important and
[22:42]they're most unique or an element, which is among the most important and is the most unique,
[22:48]is what you're describing, which is that the novel is an art form in which we can take the
[22:53]perspective of a different human being, you know, where we suddenly can see the world to their eyes,
[22:58]we can feel in the best of novels, very close to their experience. We feel emotionally
[23:03]in tune with them. So if they have a setback, we're upset. If they have a victory, we're excited,
[23:07]you know, if something funny happens, then we laugh, some tragic happens, then we cry, you know,
[23:11]there's some real potential bonding between a reader and the central characters. And when that
[23:17]happens, it's a beautiful thing, I think, and make, can make a story much more powerful.
[23:22]So I do think that for young writers, this should be one of the things that they strive to gain
[23:28]a command of, which is how do you invent a personality, a three-dimensional individual,
[23:37]idiosyncratic, you know, is unique. And yet the reader gets access very quickly to an understanding
[23:43]of who they are. Now we part of a pleasure of a novel is also is getting a deeper and deeper
[23:47]understanding of who they are and watching how they change. So it's not like you need to know
[23:50]everything. But as you say, you know, you want to know enough about them that that you kind of
[23:57]have a sense of, oh yeah, I can feel who this person is. I know who this person is. And now I'm
[24:01]going to join them, this discovery. And I'm going to get to know them better along the way.
[24:05]I'm not much in the way that we do in life, you know, if particularly when we hit it off with someone,
[24:09]you know, you spend 40 minutes at a party talking to somebody who's a natural fit for you. And
[24:13]it's just like it's it's very exciting. You you feel like I feel like you feel like I've
[24:17]known this person in our whole lives. And you realize there's many things you still need to know
[24:20]about them. And you know, and they are changing. But yet you have the strong sense of infinity.
[24:26]And you're, I think, in writing, you're trying to create that similar version of that experience,
[24:32]you know, but you just the, the challenge is that you have to make that, that connection,
[24:38]aspect of affinity for all kinds of readers at the same time, you know, I can't sort of just make
[24:44]one in a thousand people like my main character, you know, maybe it does have to be a broader
[24:50]ideally a broader scope than that. It's really like magic that it ever works. Really,
[24:54]I mean, when you think about it. Yes, it's very much like magic. Anyway, well,
[25:00]and more, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for all the hours of reading pleasure you've
[25:05]given me on your. So thanks so much. All right, take care. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this
[25:13]episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens
[25:18]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[25:23]and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[25:27]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan back texture sound for the sound editing. And thank you to
[25:32]Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.