Tracey Lange, WE ARE THE BRENNANS: A Novel
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[0:51]My name is Jean McCulloch, and I'm thrilled and honored to have contributed to Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:58]My essay is called Snow in the Night's Sky.
[1:02]And what I really don't have time for these days is to visit all my friends and relatives dotted throughout the country
[1:11]who I haven't seen since the lockdown.
[1:14]So, there's a goal for the coming year.
[1:17]Tracy Lang is the author of We Are the Brennans, a novel.
[1:20]Born in the Bronx and raised in Manhattan, Tracy comes from a large Irish family with a few secrets of its own.
[1:25]She headed west and graduated from the University of New Mexico before owning and operating a behavioral health care company with her husband for 15 years.
[1:33]While writing her debut novel We Are the Brennans, she completed the Stanford University online novel writing program.
[1:38]Tracy currently lives in Bend, Oregon with her husband, two sons, and their German Shepherd.
[1:43]We Are the Brennans is her first novel.
[1:45]Welcome, Tracy.
[1:46]Thanks for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Vex, or I should just call it today, Moms.
[1:50]And sometimes you podcast because of all the parent teacher conferences.
[1:54]Welcome, thanks for coming on to discuss.
[1:57]Yes.
[1:58]Of course.
[1:59]Thank you for having me.
[2:00]So funny.
[2:01]I got so into these characters.
[2:03]They were so realistic to me.
[2:05]The whole family, everybody, all the scenes, how it all, all the, like how everything rippled throughout,
[2:13]like the dad getting older, like just like all the things.
[2:17]I just loved it.
[2:18]I really loved it.
[2:19]It was just so real.
[2:22]And having it like overcome, you know, coming back into the fold.
[2:27]And I don't know.
[2:28]It was just like the bar, like I could feel it.
[2:31]Like the whole thing.
[2:32]It was like the financial stress that I meant to all of it.
[2:36]It was like really good.
[2:37]It was really good.
[2:38]Thank you.
[2:39]That is so nice to hear.
[2:40]That's awesome.
[2:41]Thank you.
[2:42]And by the way, so many people had recommended this book to me.
[2:45]You should know.
[2:46]So that's great.
[2:47]That's great.
[2:48]That's good.
[2:49]So maybe you should do a better job at summarizing than my, like, mumbling.
[2:53]And telling everybody what we are.
[2:55]The Brennan's is really about.
[2:57]Yeah.
[2:58]So basically the Brennan's are an Irish Catholic family in Westchester, New York.
[3:03]And they are a pretty tight crew, but definitely.
[3:06]They're fair share of dysfunction.
[3:09]And when the story opens, one of the four adult siblings, the only girl Sunday is actually
[3:16]living across the country in LA.
[3:18]And she gets into a pretty nasty drunk driving accident one night.
[3:22]And so she sort of beat up and in the hospital.
[3:25]And this all happens in the first couple pages.
[3:28]So we're not giving anything away.
[3:29]But her big brother comes out and really convinces her to come back home for a while.
[3:35]She's been gone for five years.
[3:37]And you know, he kind of tells her it's time to come home and recuperate with family for a little bit.
[3:41]So as excited as they all are to be back together.
[3:45]Her homecoming sort of kicks some turmoil up.
[3:48]Her dad and her brothers are wanting to know why she left five years ago kind of suddenly.
[3:54]And with little explanation.
[3:56]And at the same time, she begins to realize that they're maybe not doing as well as she thought they were.
[4:01]So basically all sorts of long held secret start to sort of bubble to the surface.
[4:07]And they, as a family, they kind of have to figure out how to deal with all this if they're going to get through it together.
[4:13]So it's largely about family and loyalty and shame and what that does to us and our relationships.
[4:21]And then forgiveness, I think is a big part of it too.
[4:24]So that's the end kind of a nutshell.
[4:28]It kind of goes back to this like, if there's a secret, it can be a novel.
[4:34]Right.
[4:35]Like someone has to have it.
[4:36]If someone has a secret, it's going to be a good novel in some way.
[4:39]Someone's going to sort something out.
[4:40]It's something's going to.
[4:41]Yeah.
[4:42]It's going to have some kind of ripple effect.
[4:44]Yeah.
[4:45]Yeah.
[4:46]And these guys are all harboring secrets.
[4:47]So there's all sorts of mess.
[4:48]There are all sorts of secrets in all different combinations.
[4:51]Right.
[4:52]You know, to be honest, I almost was like, the families are so enmeshed.
[4:56]Right.
[4:57]Everybody is so on top of each other that it almost like couldn't even believe that
[5:02]someone had had been gone.
[5:04]Like how they even left her leave.
[5:05]I mean, I know she just left.
[5:07]But like, and I know that you address this.
[5:09]But still, like the absence must have been so huge when she was gone.
[5:15]Because, yeah.
[5:16]For all of them.
[5:17]I think in a way, they all sort of went into a holding pattern when she left,
[5:23]particularly her, of course.
[5:25]But just, they are.
[5:27]They're so tight.
[5:28]They've always been at times too tight.
[5:30]Probably to mix up in each other's business.
[5:32]So yeah, I think it had a huge effect when she left.
[5:35]Especially with their mother having passed away.
[5:37]Yes.
[5:38]Yeah.
[5:39]Sort of left adrift.
[5:40]Yeah, exactly.
[5:41]So yeah.
[5:42]I mean, I don't, that didn't come that far.
[5:44]And I don't think that's just like a factor with their family.
[5:47]Yes.
[5:48]Yeah.
[5:49]Mom's gone.
[5:50]So yeah.
[5:51]And I was interested in how you, like, what attributes you gave to the different siblings.
[5:56]Right.
[5:57]So I think it's, so it was Shane, right, who has a mental handicap of sorts.
[6:02]Right.
[6:03]Yeah.
[6:04]He's got intellectual disability.
[6:05]Yeah.
[6:06]That's right.
[6:07]That's okay.
[6:08]Yeah.
[6:09]No, no.
[6:10]Yeah.
[6:11]I know they're correct.
[6:12]So what made you choose to do that?
[6:13]What made you then Jackie has like issues with, you know,
[6:18]I was like, you know, just like, yeah.
[6:21]Yeah.
[6:22]How did you, how did you pick or did they just sort of come to fully formed?
[6:26]No, I started with Sunday, she was the first character.
[6:29]I really sort of landed on and that idea of her coming back into the family fold.
[6:33]That's kind of where it all started.
[6:35]And so I, I developed her for a bit.
[6:38]And I knew I wanted her to have a big brother.
[6:41]Kind of big sort of domineering type, you know.
[6:45]And so I think Danny was really the second person I landed on.
[6:48]And, you know, as I developed each character, to some degree,
[6:52]they were kind of a response to her since the story sort of revolved.
[6:56]They're all involved.
[6:57]It's about all of them.
[6:58]But she's definitely kind of at the heart of the story.
[7:00]So Shane, the youngest brother, well, first of all,
[7:04]I guess once you have two older siblings and you're the next one,
[7:07]often you're tend to be a little bit more of a wander,
[7:10]like her younger brother, Jackie, and trying to find his own way
[7:13]and getting a little bit of trouble.
[7:15]And then when I landed on a youngest brother, Shane,
[7:18]who has the disability, I, it just felt like a great way,
[7:22]something that would really connect them all despite all the trouble
[7:27]and difficulties with mom.
[7:28]And he just, he's in some ways a glue that kind of keeps them all together at times.
[7:33]And he was, what you see is what you get.
[7:36]You know, most of the characters are harboring all these secrets,
[7:39]but there are a couple like Shane and Teresa that aren't holding on to secrets.
[7:44]And that's why they didn't actually get point of view chapters.
[7:47]I kind of had a limit it.
[7:48]And so I kept it to the people that were holding on to these secrets.
[7:52]But yeah, that's how they all sort of developed was in response to Sunday and into each other.
[7:57]Well, and Shane is the one who kind of like gives a clue that, you know,
[8:02]right?
[8:03]Incredibly important.
[8:04]Yeah.
[8:05]Yeah.
[8:06]I'm just good to have someone without such a filter and agenda.
[8:09]Yeah.
[8:10]Yeah.
[8:11]Yeah.
[8:12]I figured all these pages.
[8:14]Let's see if I have a code that I can read.
[8:17]Let's see.
[8:18]Why did I jog here?
[8:19]These pages.
[8:20]I don't know if something was great about that.
[8:22]Let's see.
[8:23]Having nightmares about any bickering.
[8:26]Yeah.
[8:27]Denny definitely bickers with a lot of PS.
[8:29]I think I was just.
[8:30]This is just more about the secrets.
[8:32]And Sunday knew a thing or two about that.
[8:34]The terrible fallout that came with hiding shameful secrets from the people who mattered most.
[8:38]I think I was like, Oh, what is she talking about?
[8:41]Yeah.
[8:42]I think that kind of goes to the heart of this.
[8:44]The idea that this, you know, people do not respond to the Brennan's because they do love each other so much and they would sort of do anything for each other.
[8:52]But at the same time, they feel the need to hide things from each other.
[8:56]So I think digging into that idea was a big part of this whole story.
[9:01]And you double down with the secrecy here later when you're talking about Vivian.
[9:05]And you said Vivian was in middle school when her mother loved sharing salacious secrets dot dot dot.
[9:13]I'll do like a word back time and just circle all the ones.
[9:18]But you know, that was interesting.
[9:20]Interesting to being like the woman who has to come, you know, in the big shoes of a great love.
[9:26]Right.
[9:27]Like the next person who has to fill that I'm not speaking.
[9:30]Yeah.
[9:31]I mean, no, no, you're right.
[9:34]That's a tough, you know, Vivian is super interesting character to me and people react to her different ways.
[9:39]But she definitely has reasons for kind of making the choices that she makes and she's in a tough spot.
[9:45]You know, she's on the outside of this crew and there was a first love.
[9:49]And so yeah, I think you have to have some.
[9:52]You may not like her at times, but hopefully you have some sympathy.
[9:55]I did feel badly for her.
[9:58]Yeah.
[9:59]I was also.
[10:00]the wondering why you named kale, kale.
[10:03]Is that a?
[10:04]I get that a lot.
[10:05]I get that a lot, honestly.
[10:07]And it came to me through one of my son's friends,
[10:10]his name's kale, and I did know kale as an Irish name.
[10:14]So it sort of stuck with me.
[10:16]But I get that a lot.
[10:17]It strikes people as sort of differenter.
[10:19]But that's where I landed on it, honestly.
[10:21]Most of the names in the book did come from family members,
[10:25]cousins near and far.
[10:27]And, but kale and actually Sunday, both those names
[10:31]were not in come from family.
[10:33]They just, I came across them and I thought they just
[10:35]failed.
[10:37]Love it.
[10:37]So how did you take me back a little bit
[10:41]to how you ended up writing this novel to begin with?
[10:44]Like when did you first like to write?
[10:46]Is this something you've loved since you were a kid?
[10:48]Did you always want to do this type of novel?
[10:51]Like why this particular type of, you know,
[10:54]it almost could be like a play, right, the intimacy
[10:56]and the conversation, the romantic, you know,
[11:00]like it's all in interactions really
[11:02]and the interior lives.
[11:04]And right, I'm really saying my words are not making sense.
[11:08]But I hope you are understanding what I'm asking you.
[11:11]I am.
[11:12]As far as kind of where it came from or when it started,
[11:16]I actually was in had a different sort of career
[11:20]for many years.
[11:21]So I was in the behavioral health care field.
[11:22]But I did always love to read since I was really young.
[11:27]And I really was a drawn to writing,
[11:29]but I think that for a long time,
[11:31]I thought I just didn't have that.
[11:34]It was so daunting to me, the idea of, you know,
[11:36]maybe I was such a book fan and an author fan.
[11:38]I just didn't quite think I could do that.
[11:41]So I went another direction for years,
[11:43]but then my husband, I had her own business in that field.
[11:46]But once we were able to extricate ourselves from that,
[11:50]I kind of figured that was my chance to go for it.
[11:53]And that was about six or seven years ago.
[11:55]And I just went at it full time.
[11:59]And I took some classes and I did a writing program
[12:03]that was fabulous.
[12:04]And I just, I jumped into it fully.
[12:07]So run-ins, I started about to, well,
[12:10]I guess spring of 2017, probably,
[12:13]and it took, all told it took about two and a half years,
[12:16]but that did include some pretty significant steps back
[12:19]when I just needed to take time.
[12:21]And especially with such a big cast of characters
[12:24]and so much going on over times,
[12:26]I was kind of in the weeds
[12:27]and I'd have to take a break.
[12:28]And, but as far as where that particular story came from,
[12:31]it's certainly inspired by my own history
[12:34]growing up in a big Irish Catholic family,
[12:36]although none of the characters or specific events
[12:40]come from me or my family.
[12:42]And I always feel the need to stress
[12:44]that my mom is nothing like Mora, Brennan.
[12:47]She just used a tough lady to feel much more.
[12:50]So I always like to put that out there.
[12:52]But I did know older generation woman like her.
[12:56]And I just grew up in this fun, huge family
[13:00]and it was amazing to feel part of this clan.
[13:03]But then there were always sort of from a young age,
[13:06]there were things that I just kind of sensed.
[13:08]We didn't really talk about that came
[13:10]from younger generations and that sort of trickles down.
[13:14]And we talk about it now.
[13:16]But I think I just wanted to get it all that,
[13:18]the good and the bad and the messy of all of that.
[13:21]So that's definitely where the story came from.
[13:24]Thanks a lot.
[13:25]But they're okay with it for the best, right?
[13:28]To your family.
[13:29]Yeah.
[13:29]Yeah.
[13:30]Because again, nobody can look at this
[13:32]and say, oh, she's writing about me.
[13:33]I did have fun weaving in some of my dad's history
[13:36]into making Brennan's just coming
[13:38]from Northern Ireland and being in construction in New York
[13:40]and those kind of fun things.
[13:42]But that's about as close as it comes to anybody.
[13:44]So far, everybody seems okay with it.
[13:47]It's funny, you say that about your mom.
[13:48]I was trying to write this memoir that I'm working.
[13:51]And my husband was like, what do you do about your mom?
[13:55]And I was like, oh, I just barely put her in.
[13:58]I felt like it was safer just to like,
[13:59]and he was like, no, she's not going to like that.
[14:02]Like she's like, oh, that's tough.
[14:05]It's tough, yeah.
[14:06]So you just have to be so delicate, I guess.
[14:09]So when you said that not being based on your own mom,
[14:12]that was like, that's the thing I would take.
[14:15]Yeah, I just felt the need to,
[14:17]a couple of times people ask,
[14:19]I was like, oh boy, I hope everyone doesn't think.
[14:22]Doesn't think that.
[14:23]So yeah, I like to just put that out.
[14:24]What did you delete that was originally going to be part
[14:27]of the book?
[14:28]Like what's on the cutting room floor, I said to speak?
[14:30]Really, I guess my drafts just kept,
[14:35]and there were a lot of them.
[14:36]It was always about just digging deeper
[14:39]into the characters and those relationships.
[14:42]So I can't really say that a whole lot of,
[14:46]you know, plot change from the beginning,
[14:48]a lot of it really sort of stayed the same,
[14:51]little things changed,
[14:52]but it was always more about digging in further deeper
[14:57]with these guys and how they changed
[14:59]over those five years while Sunday was gone.
[15:02]And so it's hard to say exactly what was a lot fell
[15:06]to the cutting room floor,
[15:07]but it wasn't really something like,
[15:09]oh, I cut this person or that, you know,
[15:12]storyline for the most part they stayed,
[15:14]it just, I just had to keep digging deeper and deeper
[15:16]with all of it.
[15:18]Well, I did not see it coming sort of what ended up
[15:22]being the reason that, you know, so well done.
[15:25]And it was very good, I was all in.
[15:27]Yeah, I don't know.
[15:28]I am constantly surprised by these plot twists.
[15:31]So I guess it just means I'm reading really good books,
[15:33]right, that's the point.
[15:35]Well, that's good, that's nice to hear too.
[15:37]That's nice to hear.
[15:38]Yeah, it's, you know, everybody has their own,
[15:42]I guess particular brand of shame
[15:44]that would cause them to sort of do what she did.
[15:47]And so that, yeah, it seemed to fit for her
[15:49]and that family.
[15:50]And so I'm glad I'm glad it worked for you.
[15:53]And what kind of books do you like to read?
[15:55]You know, I mean, I read a variety of books,
[15:58]but I do love books that just dive into
[16:01]those kind of messy relationships
[16:03]where, for the most part,
[16:06]people have good intentions, but just screw up left and right.
[16:09]And because I just think that's so human
[16:12]and then looking at it from all sides
[16:14]and trying to work through that stuff.
[16:16]But just, you know, that idea that nobody straight up
[16:19]good or bad and nothing, no situation is black or white.
[16:23]Usually there's a lot of gray
[16:25]and I just love to kind of dig deep into all that stuff
[16:27]and read about that too.
[16:29]Excellent.
[16:30]You working on another book now?
[16:32]I am.
[16:33]I'm pretty far inward.
[16:34]I actually just sent it off another draft,
[16:37]the next draft off to my agent.
[16:39]So fingers crossed.
[16:41]You know, she always has amazing notes
[16:43]and she's helped me improve it already.
[16:44]So that's where we are at this point.
[16:46]And then, you know, hopefully we'll see from there.
[16:50]But yeah, that's where I am at this point.
[16:51]Now I'm just kind of on pins and needles waiting here.
[16:54]And when you are writing full time,
[16:56]what's your, do you like to write early in the day?
[16:59]Like what's your, what does it look like?
[17:01]Or do you just write late at night
[17:03]and do you write right there at your desk?
[17:04]Or what?
[17:05]Yeah, I'm always in here.
[17:07]I can't really, I know a lot of people
[17:09]liked about coffee shops and I actually do like that.
[17:11]But I get up and down a lot.
[17:12]So for the most part, I'm in this little,
[17:14]my little cave here.
[17:15]And I tend to write for a few hours in the morning
[17:18]and then take a, you know, break of some kind,
[17:20]whether it's to get some kind of physical activity
[17:22]and try to jog some solutions loose, you know,
[17:26]or take care of some errands.
[17:27]And then I usually come back at it
[17:29]in the afternoon for another few hours.
[17:31]And that's my schedule most days,
[17:33]a little bit less on the weekends,
[17:34]maybe in a course that there's travel or something unusual,
[17:37]but that tends to be my, my daily schedule.
[17:41]Yeah.
[17:41]And do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[17:44]I guess the two things I would put out there are,
[17:47]probably everybody's heard this one,
[17:48]but just keep writing through the,
[17:51]even those days where you're like,
[17:52]oh my God, no one's gonna be interested in this.
[17:54]What am I doing?
[17:55]You know, just keep writing.
[17:56]When you start hitting some of that stage
[17:58]where you're maybe getting some rejection,
[18:00]just keep going, you know, definitely keep writing
[18:03]through that stuff.
[18:05]But the other one that I always mentioned
[18:07]is I really suggest finding your writers group.
[18:10]And I know everybody works differently
[18:12]and, but I don't know what I would do without my group,
[18:15]those people that, because it's such a solitary work.
[18:18]And so it's just invaluable to have that interaction
[18:22]and that support.
[18:23]And also they just, they help me improve my work
[18:26]all the time.
[18:27]So, and listening to that feedback,
[18:30]because you're in such a vacuum
[18:32]that I don't know how anyone does it
[18:34]without getting some outside feedback
[18:36]and sounding boards.
[18:37]And so that's always a big one.
[18:39]I just know how much better I got
[18:41]after I started working with a writers group.
[18:43]So that would be my tip.
[18:45]Excellent, I love it.
[18:46]Is there an actual place that you've modeled this
[18:50]after like the bars and the actual scenery
[18:53]and the place, it all felt the house,
[18:57]like, or did it, was it all in your imagination?
[18:59]The flowers, like in the flower beds, like the whole thing.
[19:03]Right.
[19:04]I really do think that, I mean, Westchester,
[19:07]I spent a lot of time there growing up at family there.
[19:10]It felt right.
[19:11]It was in terms of location and size in my mind.
[19:15]It's kind of a briar cliff in there.
[19:17]But I sort of had to, I felt like just tweet
[19:21]someone, the history and enough that I,
[19:23]I guess I felt like I had to name it something different.
[19:27]But definitely that feel up there
[19:29]and being close to the city and that influence,
[19:31]but yet wanting that quieter suburb feel.
[19:35]So yeah, it's, I spent a lot of time
[19:37]they're growing up and the Mayor and I have of course
[19:39]is in there too.
[19:40]And I, so it's based on that area for sure.
[19:44]Excellent.
[19:44]Sometimes someone I just talked to said,
[19:46]she goes on Zillow and finds all the houses
[19:48]for her characters on Zillow.
[19:50]Oh, I've done that.
[19:53]I've been here looking for like the rough cost of houses.
[19:57]So yeah, I mean, you can find anything.
[19:58]That's it.
[19:59]You can walk the.
[20:00]And she's like, oh, no, she's like, I shop for my house.
[20:03]And then I decide that's my character's house.
[20:04]It's Cara Ruda who did that.
[20:06]And it's like, you know, gymnastics, suspense,
[20:07]and, you know, it's like, that's awesome.
[20:10]Anyway, so yeah, I'm like, that's great.
[20:12]Why not take a real house and put pretend characters in?
[20:15]Absolutely.
[20:16]Yeah, and you can get on Google Maps now
[20:17]and actually walk neighborhoods, you know.
[20:19]It's pretty amazing.
[20:21]No one needs to stand up.
[20:22]It's like, I know, I know that's not really good, I guess,
[20:25]but it's been helpful the last year and a half anyway.
[20:29]That's true.
[20:30]Yeah, awesome.
[20:30]OK, well, Tracy, thank you so much.
[20:32]Yeah, thank you.
[20:34]On some time to read books.
[20:35]And thanks for my enjoyment of the book.
[20:38]I really kind of fell hard into these characters.
[20:41]And, you know, I really wish them well.
[20:43]I'm curious what's happening with them now.
[20:46]Thank you so much.
[20:48]I appreciate it.
[20:48]This is great.
[20:49]OK, good luck with your conferences.
[20:52]Thank you.
[20:52]OK, I'm just ceramics.
[20:54]OK, bye.
[20:56]All right, bye.
[20:58]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[21:00]Don't have time to read books.
[21:02]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens
[21:05]and at Moms Don't have time to read books.
[21:07]Also, sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com
[21:09]and sign up for my virtual book club
[21:11]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[21:14]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[21:16]for the Sound Editing.
[21:17]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[21:19]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.