Daisy Hernández, THE KISSING BUG: A True Story of a Family, an Insect, and a Nation's Neglect of a Deadly Disease
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[1:03]Daisy Hernandez is the author of the kissing bug, a true story of a family and insect and a nation's neglect of a deadly disease.
[1:10]Daisy is a former reporter for The New York Times, and has been writing about the intersections of race, immigration, class, and sexuality for almost two decades.
[1:18]She has written for the National Geographic, NPR's All Things Considered, and Code Switch.
[1:24]The Atlantic, Slate, and Guernica, and she's the former editor of Color Lines, a news magazine on race and politics.
[1:30]In addition to her most recent book, The Kissing Bug, Hernandez is the author of The Award-winning Memoir, a cup of water under my bed, and co-editor of Colonize This, Young Women of Color, on today's feminism.
[1:41]She's an associate professor at Miami University in Ohio.
[1:45]Welcome, Daisy. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to read books to discuss The Kissing Bug, a true story of a family and insect and a nation's neglect of a deadly disease.
[1:55]Thanks for having me.
[1:56]It's my pleasure. Daisy, you're a beautiful writer. I know that you know this.
[2:00]I know you've been a reporter forever and a journalist in The New York Times and all the rest, but this was like from the first sentence, like beautiful, gripping, great story, really beautiful.
[2:11]So, thank you for that.
[2:14]Thank you. I appreciate it. We need readers.
[2:17]Yes, readers. I mean, I know it's called The Kissing Bug, but you also, I mean, it's a family story as well, right?
[2:23]It's about your family and your experience and culture and identity. I mean, it's about a lot of things.
[2:29]So, anyway, you can also call it like, well, anyway, I won't, but I've been your marketing department.
[2:35]It's great. I think you weave in a lot of facts and figures about disease under the radar disease that a lot of people don't know about, but the way you paint a portrait of the people, the women, especially in your family, it's just really beautiful.
[2:48]So, anyway, why don't you tell listeners your take on your book and what it's about and what inspired you to write in research and all that stuff.
[2:57]Yeah. So, The Kissing Bug did start with my family because one of my aunties, who was basically like a mother to me, my Thea Dora, was diagnosed with Shaga's disease when I was very young and I was translating for her.
[3:10]I was the first person in my family who was navigating both languages, learning English and kindergarten and so interpreting for my auntie without really knowing what I was interpreting the way that sort of often happens in immigrant families when immigration crosses with medical care system and everything else.
[3:26]And so I grew up, this is a chronic disease. It's a parasitic disease. This is nothing that I knew growing up. We knew that it was chronic that there wasn't a cure that my auntie was going to have this all her life.
[3:39]But I also didn't ever think that she was going to die from this disease because I just knew her as having been sick her life that it almost became just it was a part of our lives, you know, some years were really good years.
[3:51]And some years she was hospitalized for several weeks, sometimes for months. She had different surgeries on and we never met another family who had any knowledge or awareness of this disease.
[4:03]It was called the Shaga's disease, sometimes called also the kissing bug disease in English. And so when she died it was it was several decades later actually and it was quite a shock to me that she passed away and it really.
[4:16]And we had a complicated relationship as you're alluding to in the book. We had a lot of love and a lot of like misunderstandings anger, she was my auntie really had a hard time accepting that I was queer.
[4:29]A lot of me as her daughter and really wanted me to have like the particular sort of American dream that she had which did not include any queer people in it unfortunately.
[4:38]So we had like just a very loving and also painful relationship. I think it's the right way to say it.
[4:44]So it was complicated to me that I had so much grief when she died. And you know not only did I have grief, but I realized that I didn't understand what this disease was I just thought it was very rare.
[4:55]And as I began to research I found out, oh my gosh there's 300,000 people in the United States with Shaga's disease, those are all people who are like my auntie their immigrants from South America or Central America or Mexico.
[5:08]And this disease, you know, this is a parasitic disease that's transmitted by a kissing bug or try to mean insect.
[5:15]And it can live that parasite can live in the body for many years, even up to three decades very silently.
[5:22]Or it starts to attack the heart and predominantly it attacks the cardiac system and for people like my auntie, a smaller number it attacks the gastrointestinal system.
[5:33]And so that's why she was having a bunch of surgeries and basically kind of getting treatment over the years.
[5:38]And it collected disease because it does disproportionately affect not only immigrants in the US, but you know in terms of Latin America, there's about six million people who have this disease and even within Latin America, these are people who usually are coming from very poor communities, rural communities where they would have contact with this insect.
[5:56]So this is not a community that has that many people advocating or you know at their behalf, you know, and who don't necessarily have resources it is also a very it's oftentimes called a silent and silence disease in the sense that this is not like Ebola right.
[6:11]This is not like super visible in the body and it's also not COVID it's not like the flu it's not transmitting very easily between people.
[6:20]So it really gets contained to this community it's a little bit more like line disease right where you have to have contact with an insect.
[6:27]And so I realized just like, oh my god, how are there 300,000 people in this country who are they are they similar to my family are they really different so I basically you know I tell other people be careful what you start to research because you will go down that rabbit hole of like wanting to know more and more and I did.
[6:48]So I ended up finding families and finding doctors a few doctors in the United States who were becoming advocates for their patients and it was an incredible turned out to be a seven year journey of researching interviewing.
[7:01]I was traveling across the United States and also traveling back to South America because I had another auntie who I did not spend much time with because she stayed in Latin America but also was infected with this disease so talking to my cousins about their mom and losing her at such a young age was really eye opening for me so it was quite a journey.
[7:22]And then were you doing your journalist job at the same time like for the pay like what was this just something like a passion project on the side like how did you weave this into life.
[7:31]Yes, oh, I love these questions logistics sorry, I'm like, no, these are like my favorite questions I love asking people this and I love being asked as well, so I was actually transitioning from publishing into teaching in higher ed.
[7:45]And so I was doing an MFA program and I was writing actually a short story about a little girl whose mother had shot his disease and I realized wait that little girl is me.
[7:56]I mean the what I was writing was very fictional, but I realized it was a story about me and my auntie, but no, so I was actually starting this book project as I was starting a career in higher ed so.
[8:07]You know what was interesting was that yes, a lot of times I was like oh i'm going to this place for like a job interview oh I also get to interview someone there in that area or you know.
[8:19]And then I did end up starting in higher ed and what was really great about that was that I did get research funding I got several thousand dollars from my college to be able to go and travel and do interviews so people ask me like.
[8:33]How did you make time for this, how did you get funding and I'm like yes, I was subsidized and some part by my my my college, you know, I would have done it on my own, but it would have definitely meant.
[8:43]Using up savings to to to do this, but yeah, I've talked to other people who do this, you know kind of literary journalism work and.
[8:51]You know, you go to one city to promote your last book and you started your interviews for the next book, which is what a lot of what I did in Los Angeles and then there were times when I definitely like before I had the.
[9:01]Financial funding from my university I was just using my own money, because as you're saying I never use the phrase passion project, but this was more like I had to do it, you know, it was the.
[9:14]The writer Octavia Butler has this beautiful essay about positive obsessions.
[9:18]And so this for me was like a positive obsession.
[9:21]And so yeah, I would have done it either way, but it was, you know, there's a reason it took seven years and not to.
[9:28]I was juggling life.
[9:30]Those many hats that we women where I didn't mean in any sort of negative way to say passion project because if it was like, you know, some fluff thing on the side, I hope you didn't take it that way.
[9:42]I realized like, Oh, I don't actually use that wording. I'm like, what wording do I use. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I use positive obsession.
[9:47]Positive obsession is a good one. Okay.
[9:49]Yeah, if you haven't read that essay, Bob.
[9:51]Take your Butler. I so resume. Okay, although that might be where it's of just, you know, we have to get crazy about the stuff we love because otherwise.
[9:59]Yeah, it doesn't.
[10:00]Evan, yeah, you need that fuel though.
[10:02]Otherwise, it's not worth it.
[10:04]There's so much competing for time and attention
[10:07]that if there's not something really driving you,
[10:09]it's very easy to say.
[10:10]No, thanks.
[10:11]I think I'll pass on that.
[10:12]Yeah, I'll sometimes tell my students,
[10:15]unless you are JK Rowling,
[10:18]no one is going to give you enough money for that.
[10:22]Hours, when you hear about the novelist
[10:25]with the six figure advance, I'm always like, trust me,
[10:28]that was not enough money for the many hours,
[10:32]the many years that went into that book.
[10:35]So, yeah, it has to come from that gut and community.
[10:39]Also having, I feel like I also,
[10:41]the moral support, right, of having good friends
[10:43]and people supporting you when you're like,
[10:46]why am I doing this?
[10:47]Am I crazy?
[10:49]Yeah, they get me back on.
[10:51]No, I recently started a publishing company called Divi Books
[10:54]and to combat some of the frustrations
[10:58]that so many authors had, including, like I've had,
[11:00]I have books in a number of different houses to myself now.
[11:03]I say that so casually as if it's nobody deal,
[11:05]but it's like, it really may deal for me, but anyway.
[11:06]But as I've dug deep into how to change that and how
[11:11]to, like, there is so little money in putt,
[11:17]like there are, it is so expensive to produce books.
[11:19]I did my first business model and I was like,
[11:21]ah, okay, so, we'll be losing money for years.
[11:25]Like, this is great, okay.
[11:27]It's just like, I see why it doesn't make it better,
[11:30]but there are lots of things stacked against the author.
[11:32]That's all.
[11:33]A lot.
[11:34]And I think, you know, I remember a friend of mine
[11:37]who used to talk about how much we have to educate readers.
[11:40]And I really believe this, like, like a lot of people
[11:42]don't know that publishers, you know,
[11:45]they have the books that do really well
[11:47]and they'll support the books that are not doing so well
[11:49]or that have lower sales, right?
[11:51]And so every time you buy a book,
[11:52]it does make a difference, you know?
[11:54]But there's like, like as you're saying,
[11:56]there's a model in place to kind of prop up the ones
[11:59]that don't do as well.
[12:00]And I think sometimes editors,
[12:03]I think the editors that are really amazing and great
[12:05]are the ones that realize like, okay,
[12:07]this is an important book,
[12:08]even if it's not going to sell as well as this other book,
[12:11]we still need this and have a commitment.
[12:13]And we are, you know, equitable,
[12:15]redistribution of resources and that happened.
[12:20]Yes, totally.
[12:21]I'm not giving up on this, by the way.
[12:23]I'm looking for all these other revenue streams
[12:25]because, you know, I think, anyway,
[12:28]I didn't mean to leave it in like a negative way,
[12:30]but look, a lot of books are not,
[12:33]the purpose of some books is not to sell, you know,
[12:36]a million copies, right?
[12:37]Like there's a formula.
[12:38]If you wanted to sell a book,
[12:40]if you, I mean, we're getting totally off top of it,
[12:42]I'm sorry.
[12:42]If you wanted to have a book that sold a million copies,
[12:46]you could probably approach it or analyze
[12:49]what books sell a million copies and why
[12:51]and then like try to do something like that.
[12:54]And not that that wouldn't necessarily work.
[12:55]But I feel like that's not why people write books.
[12:57]I mean, you want your book to do well,
[12:59]but people have to write books that they need to write.
[13:02]Otherwise, they could be doing anything else.
[13:04]Absolutely.
[13:05]And also, we don't know what that formula is, you know,
[13:09]for that book that's going to go,
[13:10]like, so if we did, we would have a really different situation,
[13:13]but I was just talking with a student yesterday
[13:15]about House on Mango Street by San Francisco's,
[13:18]which millions and millions and millions of copies
[13:20]and international, like so many languages
[13:22]that have been translated in.
[13:24]And I'm like, yeah, I don't.
[13:25]What formula would have predicted that?
[13:27]You know what I mean?
[13:28]So I mean, you just look at these books
[13:32]that have become, you know, part of, you know,
[13:34]the canon from elementary school,
[13:36]but high school and beyond.
[13:37]And you're like, yeah, I don't think
[13:39]that someone could have predicted that.
[13:40]And then in other cases, you know,
[13:43]you look at the kind of financial support
[13:44]that some books get in terms of advertising
[13:47]in terms of how they're being pushed out.
[13:48]And you're like, well, of course it's going to do
[13:51]a little well, but at least a little, you know,
[13:55]because it's getting so much support, you know,
[13:58]not just the advance that the author is getting,
[14:00]but what's being put into the marketing
[14:02]and how it's being pushed and who's talking about it.
[14:05]People also again, readers, I don't think always appreciate too,
[14:09]because I know I didn't know this,
[14:11]is just how much informal marketing and publicity happens,
[14:14]like who you know, who you're at dinner with,
[14:17]who you're talking about, your books
[14:18]and the tongue best sort of like people who are editors
[14:20]and on the publishing side, what books they're talking.
[14:22]I mean, all of that is part of it.
[14:24]And that's something like, not quite getting,
[14:27]you're getting paid for it, but like,
[14:29]you as a writer don't know what's happening there, right?
[14:32]Yeah.
[14:33]So there's so many pieces to this like little monster
[14:36]that we call publishing.
[14:37]True.
[14:38]It's a beautiful piece.
[14:40]Well, if there's anything that you think is glaringly obvious
[14:43]that you could fix that, you know,
[14:45]that you've always thought like, if only this, you know,
[14:48]let me know.
[14:49]Someone tried it.
[14:50]You can't do new ideas.
[14:51]Anyway.
[14:52]Okay, back to your book.
[14:54]So how did your family feel about this?
[14:57]And how did you, when you, especially the,
[14:59]like the queerness parts and, you know,
[15:01]even just the parts that like reveal a lot
[15:05]of the physical struggle, like even not,
[15:07]I mean, obviously everybody's fine with it,
[15:09]but your aunt and like how she felt she was pregnant
[15:11]and her body and what that looked like in the colonoscopy bag
[15:14]and like, you know, just like all these details, right?
[15:16]Of family life and illness and what you go through
[15:19]and like what was that like?
[15:21]Yeah. Well, my family has not read the book
[15:24]because it's an English and my family only reads in Spanish.
[15:26]And I did not translate it for them
[15:28]because of my experience with my previous memoir,
[15:31]a cup of water under my bed where I did translate
[15:34]to certain chapters before they were published.
[15:37]And my mother didn't really want to read it.
[15:39]I think she was, you know,
[15:40]I don't come from a family that sits around reading
[15:42]a bunch of books.
[15:43]I think they weren't like, oh, you're the next big thing days.
[15:45]You're something like that.
[15:46]And my mother, I think actually,
[15:49]I think it's hard for her.
[15:50]She's somebody who, you know, if it's painful,
[15:53]why are we gonna look at it?
[15:54]Why are we gonna talk about it or consider it?
[15:57]So I think, you know, at one point,
[15:58]I actually tried to read some passages out loud
[16:00]and this is from a cup of water under my bed.
[16:03]And she just, she started having like emotions.
[16:06]She was like, oh, okay, that's enough.
[16:08]You know, basically don't read anymore to me.
[16:10]It just brings up sadness for her.
[16:12]And a lot of feelings.
[16:14]And I realized that, you know,
[16:15]with that memoir, I realized, you know,
[16:17]I'm actually not writing for my specific family members.
[16:20]So like, I don't have to like insist that they read it,
[16:23]that they consume, that they interact with my work.
[16:26]It would be great if they did,
[16:27]but that's just, it was a lot of acceptance.
[16:28]You know, that's just not the relationship we have.
[16:30]That memoir was translated into Spanish.
[16:33]I'm so hopeful this book will also get translated
[16:35]at some point into Spanish,
[16:36]but that book was translated.
[16:38]And my mother still didn't read it.
[16:40]And my auntie read it and argued with me about certain,
[16:43]one of my other aunties that argued about certain parts of it.
[16:46]And she's like, that's not true.
[16:48]That's not the way it happened.
[16:48]It happened this way.
[16:49]And I was like, okay, no, it didn't.
[16:51]But you're telling us to think what you want.
[16:53]And so am I.
[16:54]You're at your memoir,
[16:55]which at one point she didn't start writing her own memoir.
[16:58]And so, yeah.
[17:00]But yeah, I, you know, I think I always tell people,
[17:02]you just, if you think you know how your family's going
[17:06]to react, I can guarantee that you don't.
[17:09]I have just over the years who different writers
[17:11]heard so many reactions.
[17:13]Everything from, I thought my family would flip out to like,
[17:16]oh, actually my family just doesn't even want to read it.
[17:19]Like, we always think they're going to be really fascinated.
[17:21]At one point I had my sister read my,
[17:23]this is my memoir.
[17:24]And because I wanted to get her take on how, you know,
[17:27]I wanted her to basically be a representative for my parents
[17:31]and aunties who only spoke, only being in Spanish.
[17:33]And she was like, why am I not in it more?
[17:35]Like, what happened to the chapter about me, you know?
[17:38]So we also think like, oh, our family doesn't want to be
[17:40]in our memoir.
[17:41]No, our family might want to be in our memoir more.
[17:44]Actually, I'm going to grapple with that question of like,
[17:47]don't want to write a whole chapter about this family.
[17:49]Remember, so you just really do not know.
[17:52]But my, you know, my parents have largely accepted
[17:55]that I'm queer.
[17:56]So I think like, if in when this book would get translated
[17:59]into Spanish, that wouldn't be a surprise to them.
[18:01]Yeah, I don't know how they, I don't know actually,
[18:03]I have no idea how they would react.
[18:05]I mean, I think they're very, they're very proud of me.
[18:07]like they see this as part of my work life,
[18:09]which is really so separate from the relationship
[18:11]that we have.
[18:12]And so they're just like, oh, you did good work.
[18:14]That's, that's a really good thing.
[18:16]And they're definitely really aware
[18:17]because part of working on this book,
[18:19]what was so intense is that as I was discovering more
[18:22]about the disease, so was my family.
[18:25]And I was sharing this with my family.
[18:26]So we did not know, for example, about congenital chagas,
[18:30]which is that this parasite can transfer from a mother
[18:33]to baby during pregnancy.
[18:34]Like the word that when you said that.
[18:37]Yeah, yeah, my family was learning as I was learning.
[18:39]So they also learned with me about congenital chagas
[18:43]about this, the parasite being able to jump from mother
[18:46]to child during pregnancy like the Zika virus.
[18:48]So, so I think my family did really deeply appreciate
[18:53]how much they were learning about the disease
[18:56]because even in all those many, many years in the United States,
[19:00]we never had a doctor who explained to us anything
[19:04]about the disease.
[19:05]My auntie never saw an infectious disease specialist
[19:09]in the United States.
[19:10]Like she was basically being managed
[19:11]for the impact that the parasite I had on her body,
[19:14]but not actually working with an infectious disease specialist.
[19:17]And we didn't know, I had no idea.
[19:19]We all grew up without health insurance.
[19:21]We only saw doctors when it was an absolute emergency.
[19:24]So we didn't even know, you know,
[19:25]people say, what are the barriers for immigrants
[19:27]who have this disease in the United States?
[19:29]And the list is so long, you know,
[19:31]beginning with, do you have healthcare?
[19:32]Do you have access to healthcare?
[19:34]But also, even if you were to have healthcare,
[19:36]if you don't know what an infectious disease specialist is,
[19:39]you wouldn't even ask for it, right?
[19:41]Like, you don't even know what questions to ask to start with.
[19:44]So there are so many barriers, you know,
[19:46]just across the healthcare system
[19:48]when it comes to immigrants and this particular disease,
[19:51]but also others.
[19:52]Wow.
[19:53]Well, at least, I mean,
[19:54]got a question, but it was a really good question.
[19:57]No, no, I just, I feel like, you know,
[19:59]I didn't.
[20:00]No much about this disease before.
[20:01]And I feel like you're just shining a light on it
[20:04]is going to help a lot of people.
[20:06]And maybe somebody tells somebody
[20:08]and maybe something gets diagnosed.
[20:10]And all of that is like, this is how it starts.
[20:13]You have to get the information out there.
[20:15]I hope so.
[20:15]Yeah.
[20:16]And that's what I think.
[20:17]Yeah.
[20:18]So when you're not researching rare diseases,
[20:22]or not so rare diseases, like what's your life like?
[20:26]Are you still teaching?
[20:27]Like what is it?
[20:27]What is like, what are you going to do the rest of today?
[20:30]I am teaching.
[20:31]Yes.
[20:32]So what I'm doing with the rest of my life is, yes.
[20:35]Well, we're like almost halfway through the semester,
[20:38]which is really strange right now, and back in person.
[20:41]And so what am I doing?
[20:42]I am grading student work.
[20:44]I am writing a recommendation for graduate students
[20:47]so that they will hopefully get an award.
[20:50]I am trying to, I'm actually trying to dedicate one day a week
[20:55]to my own creative work, because I really burnt out
[20:58]last year, actually.
[21:00]Well, last year, yeah, COVID is messing up everyone's time.
[21:02]But I burnt out last year.
[21:03]And so, and I looked at what I was doing with my life,
[21:06]and I realized I was working a lot of weekends.
[21:09]I was working a lot of evenings.
[21:10]I had just, my work had seeped into every corner of my life.
[21:14]So I'm putting in a lot more boundaries than I've ever
[21:19]had probably before.
[21:21]So that is what I am doing.
[21:23]And then I also have a new puppy.
[21:25]So I'm a new puppy.
[21:26]I have a puppy who was new to me, I guess.
[21:30]And so I'm supposed to be training her
[21:32]and doing other fun things like playing.
[21:35]We play ball catch.
[21:37]So bad at dog training.
[21:38]I am just the worst.
[21:39]I try.
[21:40]I read the things.
[21:42]Every sophomore and I have someone come and teach me,
[21:43]and I'm like, and I just stand there.
[21:45]I'm like, I can't stand here and do this exercise
[21:48]where the dog walks five feet to me over and over.
[21:51]I have no patience.
[21:52]And so I don't know.
[21:53]I'm just terrible.
[21:54]It is astonishing that any of us get to adopt dogs
[21:58]without us being trained.
[22:00]I'm like, oh my God.
[22:01]This is like, you know, my sister had a baby two years ago.
[22:04]And it's like, that is crazy.
[22:06]Like, they just let you leave with the baby.
[22:08]They leave with the baby.
[22:10]And I feel like I have an instinctive.
[22:13]Like, I know what to do with baby's dogs.
[22:15]I mean, I have a dog now.
[22:17]I just, I don't even know.
[22:18]My first time I got from a pet store,
[22:20]I was like, how cute?
[22:22]And I like bought her.
[22:23]Anyway, I didn't know what I was doing.
[22:25]It's terrible.
[22:27]I love that.
[22:28]I know what to do with the human baby, the puppy.
[22:31]No, it's no instincts.
[22:33]None.
[22:34]I think it's just, we always need community, right?
[22:36]Like, we need people guiding us, you know?
[22:39]Yes, very true.
[22:41]Okay, what advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[22:44]Oh, goodness.
[22:46]My advice is always with Tony Morrison said,
[22:48]which is that she wrote the book
[22:50]that she needed to read.
[22:51]That's how she wrote her first novel.
[22:54]And when I heard her say that,
[22:55]that has just stayed with me, inspired me.
[22:59]It's kind of like the touchstone.
[23:01]That's what I always come back to.
[23:03]And that's always what I tell writers,
[23:04]what should you be working on right now?
[23:07]The essay, the poem, the magazine article,
[23:09]the book, the project that you need yourself.
[23:12]Like, it does not work.
[23:14]It never works if you think you're doing it for someone else
[23:17]or I come across writers who are like,
[23:20]doing the project that I think is gonna earn them a lot of money.
[23:22]I'm like, there's just not enough money in the world
[23:26]for everything they get to put into it.
[23:28]So I really, that's always my advice.
[23:30]It's like, get clear on what it is that you need.
[23:33]And that will just, that will like open doors,
[23:36]that will like make things clear about what you need
[23:37]to say no to and what you need to say yes to
[23:40]if you're clear about what you need yourself.
[23:41]That's a good advice on a lot of levels.
[23:43]Yeah, yeah, it applies to other parts of life as well.
[23:47]I just would take a minute, you know.
[23:49]Anyway, awesome.
[23:51]Well, Daisy, it was so nice to chat with you.
[23:53]Thank you so much for coming on and talking.
[23:55]I know we didn't even like talk too much about this,
[23:57]but I had the best time chatting with you.
[23:58]I have been kissing bug and your true story of family
[24:02]and insect and a nation's neglect of deadly disease.
[24:05]Everyone should be aware of this disease
[24:08]and also read Daisy's story.
[24:09]So thank you.
[24:10]Thank you.
[24:12]All right, take care.
[24:13]Nice chatting with you.
[24:13]I have a good one.
[24:14]You too.
[24:15]Bye bye.
[24:17]Thanks for listening to this episode
[24:18]of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:20]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebiowinds
[24:23]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[24:25]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowinds.com
[24:28]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:30]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:32]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[24:35]for the Sound Editing.
[24:36]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:38]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.