Amy Mason Doan, LADY SUNSHINE: A Novel
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[0:50]My name is Carla Nomburg, and I'm thrilled to have contributed to Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:56]My essay is called Night Breathing, and what I really don't have time for is sleep.
[1:02]Amy Mason Dohan is the author of Lady Sunshine and Novel.
[1:06]Amy is the best-selling author of the Summer List and Summer Hours, and now Lady Sunshine.
[1:11]Amy lives in Portland, Oregon and grew up in California, but as a girl, she visited the Oregon Shakespeare Fest
[1:16]with her grandparents every year, and she now considers both states home as a writer for publications,
[1:21]including the Oregonian, San Francisco, Chronicle, Wired, and Forbes.
[1:25]Amy has interviewed everyone from beer brewing monks to nanotechnologists.
[1:29]Amy has an Emmy and journalism from Stanford University and a BA in English from UC Berkeley.
[1:34]Welcome, Amy.
[1:35]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to read books to discuss Lady Sunshine and Novel.
[1:40]Thank you.
[1:41]Congratulations.
[1:42]Thank you.
[1:43]Congratulations to you two on your new publishing venture.
[1:47]You have so much going on.
[1:48]I know.
[1:49]It's really a little bit crazy, but it's fun.
[1:52]You're making time.
[1:53]You're making time.
[1:54]You're making time, but I love it.
[1:56]Okay.
[1:57]So this is your third novel after the Summer List and the Summer Hours and Summer Hours.
[2:02]Why this plot?
[2:03]Why now tell everybody what the book's about and tell us all the good stuff.
[2:08]So why now it's always hard to answer that question since I started.
[2:11]I got the idea so long ago.
[2:13]I did.
[2:14]It's 20 years ago.
[2:15]I've had this idea a lot when I was a reporter long before I even started writing fiction.
[2:20]And I got it from a song.
[2:22]I actually love to show this because I want everyone to buy this record.
[2:25]It's called Mermaid Avenue.
[2:27]Yes, I still have CDs.
[2:29]And it's by Billy Bragg and Will Cow and Natalie Merchant.
[2:34]This is old stuff from the night.
[2:36]Way back when when I was in my previous life before I started writing fiction.
[2:41]I loved this one song on here called California Stars.
[2:45]And I just got through this brutal breakup.
[2:48]And I would play this song all the time as one does.
[2:51]And I kind of dug in and got the story behind the song.
[2:55]And I found out that the lyrics were written by Woody Guthrie.
[2:58]But the music was made after he died.
[3:01]His daughter got together with some of her favorite recording artists.
[3:05]And they recorded this treasure trove of his lyrics that she had found.
[3:09]This notebook.
[3:10]And it's poetry.
[3:11]I mean, it's Woody Guthrie.
[3:13]So I always had that idea kind of kicking around.
[3:16]I wrote two other novels.
[3:18]But I had this idea for a book where there would be secrets hidden in song lyrics.
[3:24]And that's kind of the heart of this book.
[3:26]It's about a woman who inherits a house.
[3:29]You know, at its most basic level, she goes out to this house to kind of deal with it and sell it quickly.
[3:34]Her name is Jackie.
[3:35]But we find out that she spent this amazing time there when she was a teenager.
[3:40]Her uncle who had owned the house was this fabulous musician who posted all these gatherings.
[3:46]And most important that she had this amazing friendship with her cousin, Willa, who is missing.
[3:52]So layers and layers of secrets.
[3:54]And you know, it's just, it's about that intense bond that you have with people when you're younger.
[4:01]And whether or not you can recapture it later in life.
[4:04]Wow.
[4:05]Well, I love how you set the whole thing up.
[4:07]And how, you know, Jackie is sort of hiding from her boyfriend.
[4:10]Like, doesn't even want to admit that she has this huge piece of her life.
[4:13]Like, tell me about like that one decision.
[4:15]Like, when she embarrassed.
[4:17]Like, why did she not want to share it?
[4:19]Like, what's that?
[4:20]Yeah.
[4:21]So calls her from suffering boyfriend in Boston.
[4:24]Jackie's living this very quiet life in Boston.
[4:27]She's a music teacher.
[4:28]And she's this basement apartment.
[4:31]And it's all very inside, very safe and comfortable.
[4:36]And she keeps Paul at arm's length.
[4:38]And she just tells him, Oh, and here did this house.
[4:40]And I'm going to go deal with it.
[4:42]And he wants to come with various like, we'll make it into this romantic trip.
[4:45]I've always wanted to go to California.
[4:47]She's like, no, thanks.
[4:49]So I think she's, she's not telling him because she's not telling herself how important this place is.
[4:56]It's called the sand castle.
[4:58]It's really was this mecca for artists and free spirits back in the day, back in 1979.
[5:05]Since half the book is set back then in 1979.
[5:08]And, you know, she doesn't want to admit how much it means to her.
[5:11]So her telling him it's no big deal.
[5:14]You know, it's a novel.
[5:16]So of course it's a big deal.
[5:18]Yeah.
[5:19]Or there would be no story.
[5:21]So Paul is, he's just, it's a good guy.
[5:24]But he's, she's just not sure letting him in, you know.
[5:27]Yeah.
[5:28]I know how that goes.
[5:30]And the way you describe it's the compound really.
[5:33]It's like a summer camp, right?
[5:34]It's like all the buildings and how she claims slipstream right away, basically.
[5:40]And just sort of settles in.
[5:42]And you can feel Jackie sort of not fitting in.
[5:46]You do such a good job of showing like even her.
[5:49]Like she's so out of place in a way that even her clothes don't seem to fit right.
[5:54]Like she wants to wear a different clothes.
[5:56]She wants to be someone who she's basically not to fit in.
[5:59]Which some places can make you feel, especially from the past, right?
[6:03]You just want to like shed your blazer, whatever it is.
[6:06]Yeah.
[6:07]Yeah.
[6:08]And so when she's 17, I forget if she's 17 or 18 and she first comes.
[6:12]She's this very rich girl from San Francisco.
[6:15]She's basically being dumped there by her uncle and her aunt.
[6:18]And she just looks down and she's got like pressed, you know, like ironed clothes.
[6:24]You know, from eye magnet or some store in San Francisco and looks around and actually like wrinkles up her clothes.
[6:31]Cause she she wants to fit in and it is sort of like this adult summer camp.
[6:35]And I've had so many readers ask me if they can go.
[6:38]Does it exist?
[6:40]No, it doesn't.
[6:41]Unfortunately, but it's a place where she can go and kind of be herself.
[6:46]And she realizes that and she wants to stay forever at one point until something happens.
[6:51]She really thinks that she is going to stay there that she's found this accepting community that she's been been aching for forever.
[7:00]But yeah, I love that for seeing where she's she's ventures out and she's kind of nervous and not sure how they're going to what they're going to think of her this rich girl from San Francisco, you know.
[7:09]Right.
[7:10]And it's often hard. I mean, her dad was out and about with his new wife and you know, what is she going to do and she's all of a sudden has all this independence.
[7:19]And then you see how this is why I'm afraid to give my kids like too long to leave.
[7:25]I mean, look what happens here. So anyway, now she has a lot of freedom. I mean, she really does. She has an older boyfriend and nobody's nobody's keeping track of her whereabouts.
[7:34]She has basically her own little house. She has this cabin. And they thought there's all these out buildings and cabins and her cousin just sleeps on the beach sometimes.
[7:43]It's a very unstructured lifestyle.
[7:46]And she loves it, you know, she finds a lot of happiness there and and then of course something happens big crash at the end of the summer. We don't really know what happened.
[7:56]But in the present tense and in 1999, we see that the place kind of starts to come alive again, because there's this group recording a tribute album to her uncle.
[8:07]And she keeps delaying her return to Boston. She'll just stay another week or another week or Paul's like what's going on.
[8:14]Because the place is starting to become what it used to be for her. And she really wants to recapture that.
[8:21]I love how, you know, she's debating if they should do the tribute album or not. And she was like, okay, I have two conditions like it all has to get a charity. And what was the other one to think funny.
[8:33]What's that?
[8:34]No, don't let my cat. Oh yeah, don't lose my cat. Yeah. And of course, my cat owner. So there's there's a bit of me in that. But you know, she's brought her cat with her.
[8:42]That's she didn't bring the boyfriend. But she brought the cat. And yeah, those are her two conditions. She doesn't make money. You know, she's their own reasons for wanting this to happen.
[8:52]This is a sign to pay attention to when you'd rather spend eight weeks with your cat than your significant other. This is time to reevaluate.
[9:01]Writing on the wall, you know, the cat made it onto the plane, but you did it something something might be a mess. But yeah, you know, I hope I treated him fairly. I don't even like minor characters and he's not on the page very long, but I did want to give him his his moment and.
[9:16]He's a good guy. You know, he's just uninformed. I think it's also interesting how you raise the question of if somebody's a public figure and they have unpublished work, whether you're an author or an artist or a songwriter, whatever.
[9:31]Who does that belong to? Like, is it the responsibility of the people, whether it's this record label or the family, like, what do you do with that? And like, what did have been okay for her to say, I want to keep these private when so many people are demanding and feel they have a right to that content. And when do you sort of cross over like how public a figure do you have to be like who gets to decide? You must have thought about all these issues.
[9:57]Yeah, I mean, that that's a really interesting layer.
[10:00]But I've had long discussions with my partner about that.
[10:03]You know, what if I, what if I got from a die
[10:06]and I have an unfinished manuscript?
[10:08]What are you gonna do?
[10:09]What's the plan?
[10:10]Are you gonna try to finish it?
[10:11]I see there's a writer, so he carries a reporter.
[10:14]But we've had discussions about that.
[10:16]And my feeling with my work is, is no.
[10:19]So and yet I love this album.
[10:21]I love the idea of combining someone's lyrics
[10:26]with someone's music.
[10:28]And just the gut'siness of that.
[10:31]Like it's both very intimate and just so bold.
[10:34]And I've had some good discussions with book groups
[10:37]about that.
[10:37]And people are really split on whether that's
[10:39]the right thing to do or not.
[10:40]Do you just leave it intact?
[10:42]Or do you try to share it with the worlds, you know,
[10:45]by finishing it?
[10:47]I still don't know.
[10:48]I'm mostly I think with my work now,
[10:51]but with other people's maybe,
[10:53]that's not really fair, but that's kind of where
[10:55]that's what I'm feeling right now.
[10:56]Yeah, I feel like it needs to be part of the living will,
[11:01]if you will, right?
[11:02]That's something people should talk to their families about.
[11:05]And I'm sure there are state lawyers
[11:08]that specialize in such things for very successful artists.
[11:12]But it's an interesting question.
[11:14]The other question is, what about,
[11:16]how can you separate the art from the artist?
[11:18]And Jackie really worships Graham, her uncle,
[11:21]when she first arrives.
[11:23]He's so accepting, he's so magnetic.
[11:26]He's like a big lion, he's got a big beard.
[11:28]And he presides over this beautiful place
[11:31]that she loves so much.
[11:32]And then of course she realizes he's not what he seems.
[11:35]And yet he's incredibly talented and gifted,
[11:39]writer and folk musician kind of holding on to the 60s.
[11:42]So lots of good stuff to discuss.
[11:45]And I don't have all the answers.
[11:46]I just, I find the questions really interesting.
[11:49]You're great.
[11:50]So tell me about your other novels
[11:53]and how they relate to this one.
[11:55]I mean, I think the common thread is nostalgia.
[11:58]I didn't realize that when I set off to write,
[12:01]but with my first book,
[12:02]that's set partially in the 90s.
[12:05]That's the summer list.
[12:06]And it's about two grown women doing a scavenger hunt,
[12:09]like the ones they used to do when they were girls.
[12:13]That's also set in California.
[12:15]So I'm really drawn to these themes
[12:16]of connecting with the past and searching for answers
[12:21]and unfinished business.
[12:22]So as summer hours as well,
[12:24]it's about someone who's on a road trip up to a wedding
[12:27]with a man from the past.
[12:29]And the tricky thing about writing that book,
[12:32]which came out in 2019 is we don't know who he is
[12:35]for half the book.
[12:36]So they're driving up in a convertible,
[12:38]a Pacific Coast highway
[12:40]and they have this huge wedding present between them,
[12:42]like a wall.
[12:43]And so I had to kind of write around describing
[12:46]who he was.
[12:47]He could be one of two people.
[12:49]And then we find out who he was.
[12:51]So common theme is definitely reckoning with the past
[12:55]and women wrestling with those things that still matter
[12:59]and trying to confront them as adults.
[13:02]Just to give you your own little psychotherapy here.
[13:04]Why do you think you like spending so much time in the past?
[13:08]I'm writing, that's just why writing is such great therapy.
[13:12]Obviously, I think I,
[13:14]I mean, this has become really clear to me
[13:16]as I have unfinished business with my friendships.
[13:20]Because I write about friendships more than anything.
[13:22]Even Jackie and Will are their cousins,
[13:24]but they're friends, you know.
[13:26]I think I struggled to have the tight friendships
[13:29]that you have for the rest of your life.
[13:31]I was dealing with my own stuff
[13:33]and I wasn't a very good friend.
[13:35]So there's a huge amount of that.
[13:37]And this, these books have been great
[13:38]for getting me to work through them.
[13:40]And I mean, just basically,
[13:42]I think that's what we deal with.
[13:43]My best friend is a therapist, which is handy.
[13:46]but she even saw it, you know, in my books.
[13:50]Like, you really, you like to explore
[13:53]that connecting with the past
[13:55]and figuring out why we are the people we are as adults
[13:59]by looking at that teenager inside of us.
[14:01]And I'm just endlessly fascinated by that.
[14:04]I think it's fun and it's,
[14:05]it's just yield so many interesting scenarios in writing,
[14:09]but also, obviously, psychologically for me.
[14:13]And maybe a few of my readers, hopefully.
[14:15]Absolutely.
[14:17]Have you thought about reaching out to any of those friends?
[14:19]I have.
[14:20]Well, the funny thing is when you publish a book,
[14:22]you know, they reach out to you.
[14:24]Of course they should.
[14:25]I mean, you know this, right?
[14:27]I mean, but, you know,
[14:28]you've been a public figure for some time,
[14:31]but I've had, I've reconnected with one very special person
[14:35]because of my books, you know, sought in an airport.
[14:38]You know, the fantasy is always like some sort,
[14:40]some bad person you dated is gonna see your book
[14:45]somewhere and reach out and, you know, apologize
[14:47]for breaking your heart.
[14:49]Hello, person who, listen to this song.
[14:52]That has not happened.
[14:54]But I, I mean, I, and I've talked to a lot of readers
[14:57]and book clubs who have said that.
[14:59]One in the summer list in particular,
[15:01]which is really kind of a tear jerker in some ways.
[15:05]A lot of women especially have told me
[15:08]it inspired them to reach out to a friend
[15:11]or someone that they had a fight with.
[15:12]Or it's just someone that hadn't talked to in 20 years.
[15:15]So that's lovely.
[15:17]I can't hear that enough.
[15:19]You know, we, that's great.
[15:20]Like a short and we should do that sort of thing.
[15:22]So do you have a playlist for this book?
[15:25]I do.
[15:26]Yeah, it's actually in the back of the book.
[15:28]Oh, no, I missed it.
[15:29]I'm so sorry.
[15:30]You're lovely.
[15:31]Yeah, it's probably not in your copy
[15:32]because you've got a galley.
[15:33]But in the final book, like, you don't have it.
[15:35]I have all these blank pages.
[15:37]I have no, you just have a TK, right?
[15:40]I have a TK.
[15:41]Yes, we did.
[15:43]Okay, so Jackie, my main character loves disco.
[15:46]And Willa, her cousin is kind of holding onto the 60s.
[15:50]She's more into Joan Amatrading and Joanie Mitchell
[15:53]and Judy Collins, her father's type of music, but women.
[15:57]So my editor had the brilliant idea of doing a side A
[16:01]for Jackie and a side B for Willa.
[16:03]And it's on Spotify.
[16:04]I have it on my Instagram too,
[16:06]but it was really hard to narrow down.
[16:08]But I mean, I've spent many, many happy hours
[16:12]picking out these songs.
[16:13]I love that.
[16:14]Awesome.
[16:15]Well, there's something just so like,
[16:18]carefree about the book, right?
[16:21]You just get a sense.
[16:22]It's hard to read it without inhaling some of that vibe, right?
[16:26]The like free spirited dancing around the fireplace,
[16:30]which is like not fireplace fire pit, like that whole,
[16:34]you know, ethos or whatever, which is certainly not
[16:37]a part of my day to day life.
[16:39]It's like the anti, it's like the anti I call is this book.
[16:43]Right?
[16:44]It's the it, which is nice.
[16:45]Everybody needs to do this with that.
[16:47]Thank you.
[16:48]Yeah, the San Francisco Chronicle wrote my favorite review
[16:52]and they said it's a feel good book because of that nostalgia.
[16:55]And we all need that right now, that comfort and exactly.
[16:59]Maybe maybe I was trying to capture that when I wrote it
[17:02]because I certainly enjoyed living that life for a little while.
[17:05]And what are you working on now?
[17:06]So I have a new book.
[17:07]It'll probably come out in 2023 with Graydon House.
[17:11]And I'm so excited about it, but it's about,
[17:14]it's inspired by a real family who lives lived
[17:17]a very unusual nomadic life.
[17:20]And it's about the daughter in this large family of boys.
[17:23]I can say that much, set in California.
[17:26]That's where I grew up.
[17:27]I can't say much more except I love it.
[17:29]It's a huge mess right now.
[17:30]I have a lot to do, but it does tackle those themes of nostalgia
[17:35]and can't wait more soon, more soon once I finish it.
[17:39]And is this like where you work where we're doing the Zoom now?
[17:42]Like is this Zoom mostly at home?
[17:44]Yeah, never.
[17:45]Okay, so I'm in, you can see I've got my needle point
[17:48]that my grandfather did.
[17:49]I've got your book and your candle there.
[17:51]This is my master bedroom and I've only set up here today
[17:54]because it's the quietest room in my house.
[17:56]My neighborhood, I love it, but it's noisy.
[17:59]I'm in Portland and we've got multiple neighbors
[18:02]like renovating their houses and dogs barking.
[18:04]So this is like the soundproof room.
[18:06]I never work in here.
[18:08]Actually, when I was writing Lady Sunshine,
[18:10]I worked largely in a tent in my backyard, no joke.
[18:14]And I think I might do that again for every book.
[18:17]I just had to escape.
[18:18]Everyone was home with school during virtual school,
[18:22]during COVID and my husband was home working
[18:24]and it was just so noisy.
[18:26]So I fled to the backyard.
[18:28]That's amazing.
[18:28]So yeah, and I don't work in an office, I'll work anywhere
[18:32]that I can just have some quiet.
[18:34]So in the tent, did you, did you put a desk in the tent?
[18:38]I know I'm getting inside of this idea.
[18:40]I'll see how you want a sleeping bag in the tent
[18:43]or what it was doing.
[18:45]This was actually like a 30-year-old Kelty camping tent,
[18:48]my trusty tent that I've had forever,
[18:50]a very small dome tent, no room for a desk,
[18:53]but I can't work in a desk anyway.
[18:54]I usually work like reclining.
[18:56]I did have a mattress and a huge amount of pillows.
[18:59]And it just was like a big nest, no wifi,
[19:02]which is great when you're a procrastinator as I am.
[19:06]And it was just me kind of out there
[19:08]listening to the drizzle and the birds.
[19:10]And my, you know, sometimes I would sleep out there
[19:13]and wake up and write because I like to write
[19:15]in the middle of the night sometimes.
[19:17]Yeah, I kind of, I forget that I did that.
[19:19]It is a little strange now that I think about it,
[19:22]but I just made the decision immediately.
[19:25]Like I just fled.
[19:26]I staked my tent out there.
[19:29]So that was going to be my space, my creative space.
[19:32]And it worked, you know, I finished and I love the book.
[19:35]So I highly recommend it.
[19:38]Huh, I got a tent for my kid's birthday.
[19:41]And we put like all sorts of pillows and mattress
[19:45]from inside and everything.
[19:45]And then I guess I didn't realize there was a sprinkler
[19:48]right there.
[19:49]So everything got like completely soaked through.
[19:51]Anyway, it was not.
[19:52]This is just like another reason why I am not a camper.
[19:55]I can't even camp in my backyard
[19:57]without like rooting something.
[19:58]So.
[20:00]I had some leaks because I'm in Portland.
[20:02]I mean, it rames, it rames in the summer.
[20:04]And I think I started this again March of 2020.
[20:09]And definitely had some serious leaks.
[20:12]And I would put Gulf umbrellas kind of around.
[20:14]Oh, interesting.
[20:15]I had a whole system.
[20:17]My neighbors all saw it from up in their upstairs.
[20:20]And what is going on?
[20:21]Are you like, are you fighting?
[20:23]You're like, are you in Mike having some issues?
[20:27]No, it was just sort of a creative decision.
[20:31]And were you involved?
[20:32]I love this cover.
[20:33]Were you involved in the cover design?
[20:35]A little, I can't, I can't take much credit for it.
[20:38]So Gigi Lau and Mary Luna at HarperCollins designed it.
[20:42]They designed all my covers.
[20:43]And I just love it.
[20:45]I think it really captures.
[20:47]It's kind of Willa, I think, more than Jackie,
[20:49]but it's just captures a vibe of the sand castle
[20:52]that the flower crown and everything.
[20:55]So thank you.
[20:56]I think it's one of my favorite covers,
[21:00]but I'm a little biased or I agree.
[21:02]I think it's awesome.
[21:03]So what advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[21:06]You could think I would have a tight answer for that.
[21:07]At this point, kill the butterfly.
[21:10]I wish I could take credit for that.
[21:11]Have you heard that expression before killing the butterfly?
[21:14]It's Ampatches.
[21:16]I think she wrote about it in an essay,
[21:18]the escape plan or the getaway in her collection.
[21:22]This is the story of a happy marriage.
[21:24]And it was about how you have this perfect idea in your head.
[21:28]That's the butterfly.
[21:28]That's your story that you think you're gonna write.
[21:31]And what you do when you finally sit down to write
[21:33]when you stop procrastinating and you're in your tent
[21:36]or wherever you are is you smash it.
[21:39]You smash that butterfly right on your keyboard
[21:41]and it's such a vivid image.
[21:43]And that is really what it is.
[21:45]That's the pain of writing and the risk
[21:48]and the fear of failure, all of that.
[21:51]That psychological game of writing
[21:52]that makes it so hard.
[21:54]And it never changes.
[21:56]I mean, I'm on book four and it's still hard
[21:58]to kill that butterfly.
[22:00]It's never what you think it has in your head,
[22:03]but it'll be something else beautiful.
[22:05]That's my best advice.
[22:06]Love it.
[22:07]That's great advice.
[22:08]Amazing.
[22:09]Well, you inspired me now.
[22:12]I wanna play this music and dance around
[22:14]and pretend I'm a free spirit and that I'm much cooler than I am.
[22:20]But I really loved your characters
[22:22]and the setting and the story.
[22:25]And just, you know, you like took me away.
[22:28]You know, it was great.
[22:29]That's great.
[22:30]Thank you.
[22:30]That's high praise.
[22:31]Thank you, Zibi.
[22:32]I'm such a fan and so am I talking to you.
[22:34]It's a nice talking to you too.
[22:36]All right, we'll take care.
[22:37]Bye.
[22:38]Bye.
[22:40]Thanks for listening to this episode
[22:42]of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:44]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[22:47]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[22:49]Also sign up for my newsletter at Zibi Owens.com
[22:52]and sign up for my virtual book club
[22:53]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[22:56]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan.
[22:57]In fact, texture sound for the sound editing.
[23:00]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[23:02]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.