Gillian Laub, GILLIAN LAUB: Family Matters
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[0:41]Chilean Lab is a photographer and filmmaker based in New York.
[0:45]She graduated from the University of Wisconsin-Madison with a degree in comparative literature
[0:49]before studying photography at the International Center of Photography,
[0:52]where her love of visual storytelling and family narratives began.
[0:55]Her first monograph, Testimony, began as a response to the media coverage
[0:59]during the second Intifada in the Middle East.
[1:02]This work is comprised of portraits and testimonies from Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, Lebanese and Palestinians
[1:08]all directly and indirectly affected by the conflict.
[1:11]Lab spent over a decade working in Georgia, exploring issues of lingering racism in the American South.
[1:16]This work became Lab's first feature-length, directed and produced documentary film,
[1:21]Southern Rights, a premiered on HBO.
[1:23]Her monograph, Southern Rights, and traveling exhibition by the same title,
[1:27]came out in conjunction with the film and are being used for an educational outreach campaign
[1:31]in schools and institutions around the country.
[1:33]Southern Rights was named one of the best photo books by Time Smithsonian Vogue,
[1:37]Lens Culture and American Photo.
[1:39]It was also nominated for a Lucy Award and Humanitas Award.
[1:43]Lab recently received the Distinguished Alumni Award from the University of Wisconsin-Madison
[1:47]and was honored as an NYSCA slash NYFA photography fellow in 2019.
[1:53]She has been interviewed on NPR, CNN, MSNBC, Good Morning America, Times Talks, and numerous others.
[1:59]She also contributes to many publications, including Time, The New York Times Magazine, and Vanity Fair.
[2:04]Her work has been widely collected and exhibited and is included in the collections of the Harvard Art Museum,
[2:10]in Cambridge, Museum of Fine Arts, and Houston, Toronto Collection,
[2:14]in Boston, the Jewish Museum of New York, Rose Art Museum, Brandeis, Brooklyn Museum, New York,
[2:20]Grand Gallery of Art, Washington, D.C., and a wide range of corporate and private collections.
[2:25]We are talking about her new book, Family Matters.
[2:29]Welcome, Jillian.
[2:30]Thanks so much for coming on Momstone.
[2:32]I have time to read books to discuss Family Matters.
[2:35]Thank you for having me.
[2:36]I'm excited to talk to you.
[2:38]And as we were just chatting about, we have so many, you know, mutual connections and I was just like,
[2:43]okay, how many people are recommending I do this book?
[2:46]This is crazy.
[2:48]And once I read it, I was like, oh, it's like, so when I first saw the, okay, let me back up.
[2:53]Why don't you tell listeners about your book and how it's a photography book and you're an amazing photographer
[2:58]and how you also include essentially a memoir in photos and in accompanying text.
[3:02]Now you talk about the project.
[3:04]Okay.
[3:05]So it didn't start out.
[3:06]The words were kind of the last to come to be integrated into the book.
[3:10]So I'm a photographer and I've been photographing my family for 20 years.
[3:15]It began not really as a project and over time, it's evolved into a project.
[3:22]And then in 2016, it became clear that this was more of a project than I was intending as I navigated really tricky territory with my family as they all became passionate Trump supporters.
[3:38]So to the book is really from 1999 to 2020.
[3:44]And after I edited all the photographs, I realized that it was really, really, really important that my voice that I give context to the photographs.
[3:54]And although I really believe photographs should and they do stand on their own, the text was became just as important here as the photographs.
[4:04]So it is a traditional photography book, but it's meant to be read from cover to cover.
[4:09]Which is what I did, which was great.
[4:11]You include so much of your family history and going back and your grandfather who was clearly just the like the was linchpin the right word.
[4:19]You know, the spoke around which your whole family operated and he was clearly such a character.
[4:24]Tell me a little more about his background and how he sort of came to be who he was.
[4:28]And, you know, the photo you have of your grandmother kind of spaking his touch and I don't know some sort of zebra print.
[4:34]I think so with his tan wrinkled skin.
[4:36]Oh my gosh.
[4:37]Yeah.
[4:38]Well, I mean, my grandparents were really my first muses.
[4:42]Like they, they, they were just complete characters and incredibly wonderful generous loving and they just had such a swab of you.
[4:53]And so they also had the typical immigrant story where they came to their parents came to America.
[5:01]You know, only surviving children coming to America from Eastern Europe and building their American dream and really, you know, work their fingers to the bones and then had the dream of really building this family business together.
[5:16]So my grandfather built and included everyone and I went.
[5:21]I grew up just knowing that my entire family worked together and family was really everything.
[5:27]I love also how your dad ends up working for your grandfather and how that creates tension and there was like this whole dynamic and how he seemed like he was sort of his son versus his own.
[5:40]I love like unspoken family politics you spoke about.
[5:45]I think that there's a lot of, I mean, families are fascinating.
[5:50]We all have them and they're really complicated.
[5:54]So I for 20 years was kind of trying to navigate that visually and tell the visual story about it.
[6:02]But then there's so much to explore in the nuance, which is what I tried to do with the with the words.
[6:09]I think my favorites were of your aunt Carol. Is that her name? Carol. And Carol. Oh my gosh.
[6:15]Well, there is there is a Carol. There's near and Daris. There's Aunt Dorothy. But so it was a smushed on the couch like laughing at the camera.
[6:25]Oh, that's that's and Daris and Doris. Sorry. Yes. Oh my gosh.
[6:29]Mixed in with your whole family narrative and these little captions.
[6:34]You have one line in there that talks about the fact that you ended up with some sort of eating situation disorder hospital at what happened. Can you talk about it?
[6:45]I mean, I think that it wasn't a large part of the book, but I think food was such a it was, I think in our Jewish family, big family, food is such a big part of our life and world and tradition.
[7:00]And I also was very, very well aware that the women were not.
[7:07]There was a lot of shame in that and there was fear of food and there was over indulgence in every way, but also such restrictions.
[7:18]As a little girl, it wasn't talked about, but really, you know, it was like, I mean, I'm sure it's I'm speaking the same language that you know, I think that everyone can relate to this.
[7:33]It was it was part of a code that you just follow. You have to look a certain way be a certain way and I think that I really internalize that as a little girl obviously and I wasn't conscious of what it was doing to me and you know now I think we're much more open with our children, but then we didn't have the tools to really talk about what was going on.
[7:58]I mean, you know, it was kind of unspoken things that went on in our families.
[8:02]I love your little oink. Do you had a pig that went oink every time you open the fridge? Oh, it was like a joke that my grandmother had that every time you opened the fridge, there was that oinking pig, which was hilarious. I mean, there's so much humor in the book and in the story and in my family.
[8:22]Also, you know, some dark sides that that I explored. I loved your photo of the locks and the whole spread. Oh my gosh. I mean, I love, you know, you do a good job of, you know, capturing personality, but also scenes right like there's just the one thing that defines the whole moment.
[8:38]You just like capture the whole thing. Talk to me about how you became a photographer. Like this is always a secret dream of mine. So I'm like, cancel or you're like living the dream. Well, I just like love. I always am taking pictures. I used to have all these big cameras. I was like photo editor my gearbook. I like spent my weekends in the dark room and I went to like a summer program at Bennington College in photography. I love photography. Love.
[9:03]Wow. Okay. I just loaded my new phone and it has 120,000 photos on it. Oh, no. So obviously that's not real photography. But anyway, I hope that you have a lot of high cloud storage. Yes, I do. So I it's kind of a cliche because, you know, my grandfather gave me my first camera when I was six years old because I still have those, those photographs actually.
[9:30]It was a Polaroid and I would pose everyone. So I was directing even as I was a young child, having people pose for me. And the truth is I really always felt most comfortable and most in it's my way of engaging in the world and with people.
[9:48]So I'm so fascinated by people in their stories and it really started naturally at a young age and then I studied photography. So my hobby and my love.
[10:00]became my work.
[10:01]And I feel really, I feel really lucky for that.
[10:04]What did you start out shooting with
[10:06]and what do you shoot like camera-wise
[10:08]and what do you shoot with now?
[10:09]Like do you feel hurt with fun?
[10:11]I was a film, I am a film lover.
[10:14]I'm a major film lover.
[10:15]And I'm sad to say that I do shoot digital now,
[10:20]but I found a digital camera that I use
[10:23]just like a film camera
[10:24]and the file really feels everyone
[10:27]that sees the pictures actually ask if it's still filmed,
[10:30]which makes me so happy.
[10:32]But I used so professionally when I started,
[10:36]I fell in love with a medium format camera
[10:38]called the Mamiya RZ67 and it had a Polaroid back.
[10:43]And that was kind of the magic for me
[10:46]is everyone that I made a portrait of,
[10:47]I could give them something in exchange
[10:50]or they could be part of the portrait.
[10:53]So I would make a Polaroid,
[10:55]I'd probably make six or seven
[10:59]and then I'd start shooting film
[11:01]and we'd all have Polaroids from the actual portrait sitting.
[11:04]So now I've moved on to digital
[11:07]and I use a Pentax medium format.
[11:09]Wow, so cool.
[11:11]Okay, so one of the main themes of the book
[11:15]were having different political views from your family.
[11:17]And they obviously were trying so hard
[11:21]because you quoted them a lot
[11:22]to get you to see their point of view
[11:25]and you were trying so hard to get them to see your point of view.
[11:28]Not that these were unique points of view.
[11:30]These were like the embodiment of really everyone in America.
[11:33]So you capture the dialogue going on everywhere
[11:37]and what happens when it's right there.
[11:40]I mean, I'm reading this other book right now
[11:42]where the person said like her parents,
[11:45]actually by Gretchen Carlson
[11:46]and she said her parents one always voted Democrat
[11:49]and won Republican and she's like,
[11:50]why do you guys even bother?
[11:51]Like you both should just not,
[11:52]like you cancel out each other's votes.
[11:55]Why do you even bother?
[11:56]So obviously this plays out over and over again
[11:58]in people's homes,
[11:59]but this was obviously a very dramatic time.
[12:02]So it just talks to me about how you navigated that
[12:05]and sort of how it all wrapped up afterwards.
[12:09]Now that this whole thing has passed
[12:10]because I loved that part of the book too.
[12:12]So the past, I mean, they didn't,
[12:15]the thing is who someone votes for
[12:18]that never really made a difference to me.
[12:20]You know, they voted for both Democrats
[12:23]and Republicans and they've always been fiscally conservative
[12:27]but it was more about the passion for Trump
[12:32]that was just so unsettling
[12:36]and also the kind of blinding of Hillary Clinton.
[12:41]I just, I couldn't wrap my head around it.
[12:43]It just became so toxic.
[12:45]So therefore my family,
[12:47]I'm really, really, really close with my family
[12:50]and it was like an existential crisis
[12:54]in those four or five years.
[12:57]And I'm thankful that I had photography
[13:00]to kind of help me.
[13:02]It's always been the tool that helps me
[13:05]kind of understand people and the world
[13:08]and navigate through difficult issues.
[13:11]But I never thought I'd be doing that
[13:12]with my own family,
[13:13]which is what I started to do
[13:16]and investigate kind of my own,
[13:19]my own judgments too,
[13:20]my own, you know, they called me out as well.
[13:24]Like they thought I was just as judgmental
[13:28]as I was being, as, you know, they were judging me,
[13:32]I was judging them.
[13:33]And so we were, it was just so divisive.
[13:37]I mean, I think that this is what a lot of people experience
[13:41]but I also think that people weren't talking about it
[13:43]at that time.
[13:44]It was, it kind of felt like my dirty secret
[13:47]and the friends of mine
[13:49]who are also going through the same thing
[13:50]didn't talk about it because it was scary
[13:54]because it caused so much divisiveness and judgment.
[13:59]So working through the book,
[14:02]I have to say at this time last year,
[14:04]it's like it's marking, right?
[14:06]Because it was Thanksgiving 2020.
[14:09]I was terrified about what was gonna happen.
[14:12]And I really, I think that once Biden
[14:17]was elected, my father at the inaugural speech,
[14:20]my father texted me and it's like,
[14:23]just tears came streaming down my face because he said,
[14:26]okay, I'm ready for unity, like let's move forward.
[14:31]And it just, it's like all the air came out of the balloon.
[14:34]And, you know, not that it's just,
[14:37]everything's gonna be better.
[14:38]And it's, we're still in a really complicated situation
[14:42]but just on a micro level that there wasn't
[14:46]constant fighting and tension with my family.
[14:48]It's like, okay, we are turning the page.
[14:51]We are onto the next chapter.
[14:55]And that was when I could really say, okay,
[14:58]this is, this next chapter is about rebuilding.
[15:02]It's about healing.
[15:04]And that is how I was able to really finish the book
[15:09]because it was looking back on what we had just all lived
[15:14]through and kind of forging forward of like,
[15:17]how, how are we gonna move forward and heal?
[15:21]And that's why I really ended the book
[15:22]with a letter to my daughters, which was important to me.
[15:26]So, you know, it marked this time for us
[15:30]and why it was important and what I wished for them.
[15:33]Love it.
[15:34]You also, the way you treat your daughters in the book
[15:36]and the way you depict them, I should say not treat them,
[15:39]the way you depict them.
[15:40]And the picture you had of when your grandmother
[15:44]was passing away and your daughter was laying on the couch
[15:47]when she was in the hospice bed.
[15:48]And she'd, oh my gosh.
[15:50]I mean, you can sense your love of family
[15:53]through your words, through your pictures.
[15:55]And it just sets it up so that you see how sort of traumatic
[16:00]this relationship leaving was to you.
[16:05]The close nittness, suddenly the, you know,
[16:09]threading the threads were fraying, you know, anyway,
[16:13]you like really took us along for the ride.
[16:14]And I'm so happy that you ended on such a positive, right?
[16:19]Both for you, because of course, the whole time
[16:20]I'm reading for you and like, what's gonna happen?
[16:23]And how are they gonna get through this, right?
[16:25]Because it was pretty dramatic in your family.
[16:27]I mean, oh my gosh.
[16:29]It was, it was, it felt, yeah, it was,
[16:32]it felt like through those four years,
[16:35]there was almost like grieving.
[16:36]Yes, yeah.
[16:38]And a lot of pain.
[16:39]So I'm relieved that we are in kind of the, you know,
[16:44]as we have Thanksgiving this year,
[16:46]there is a, there is a different feeling.
[16:49]I'm, I'm coming into Thanksgiving with a totally different
[16:53]mindset than I had last year at this exact time.
[16:58]So since the book has come out,
[17:00]how has this impacted your family?
[17:03]I think that my parents were, it was very emotional
[17:07]for my family to read the book.
[17:09]I didn't, they knew every photograph
[17:11]that was gonna be published,
[17:14]because I wouldn't, I wouldn't publish photographs
[17:16]without their consent.
[17:17]But the words I think were hard,
[17:20]they know that there was so much love there.
[17:22]But I think that above all they respected the work
[17:27]and they appreciated my honesty
[17:29]and really respected my honesty.
[17:31]So that was the most important
[17:34]and what I felt most relieved by.
[17:36]But it's crazy because I think that this book
[17:40]actually made us closer,
[17:42]because certain things were like now on the table.
[17:45]You know, we could talk about certain things
[17:47]that were just kind of like the elephant in the room before.
[17:50]And it's talking in a way that's not fighting,
[17:54]although there is a lot of arguing,
[17:56]but it's, there's the toxicity of it all
[18:00]has kind of vanished.
[18:02]That's great.
[18:03]Oh my gosh.
[18:04]Well, I'm glad it worked out.
[18:05]I'm glad it sort of helped him with therapeutic.
[18:08]You know, it seemed like, you know,
[18:10]it's a therapy that many people need to go through.
[18:12]I feel like as we all come together.
[18:15]It did feel, it did feel like therapy, I have to say.
[18:18]But the one thing also is that it's very specific
[18:23]to my story, but it does feel like other people have,
[18:27]it resonates even in a way that's not specific
[18:31]to my family when people have read it
[18:35]and shared it with their own family.
[18:37]That's great.
[18:38]So what, what next?
[18:39]What are you working on now?
[18:40]Tell me more about the ICP thing that's going on.
[18:43]So, well, there's the ICP show.
[18:45]It's a solo show of family matters as well.
[18:48]And it's up until January 10th.
[18:51]I have this, a southern right,
[18:54]which is my previous project and that continues
[18:57]to travel around the country.
[18:58]And I'm working on a new film.
[19:01]Oh, yeah.
[19:02]But that is, I can't exactly talk about that yet,
[19:06]but I direct documentaries as well.
[19:08]So I have a new film project.
[19:11]Very cool.
[19:12]I can't say anything, nothing at all.
[19:15]I can.
[19:16]Okay, well, you got like so excited talking about it.
[19:19]So that's really awesome.
[19:21]My husband's company just options the rights
[19:25]to make some sort of documentary.
[19:26]I'll have to put you guys in touch for a future movie.
[19:28]Oh, wow.
[19:29]Yeah, okay, great.
[19:30]So he option the rights to use something was in the works.
[19:35]And now they're producing it.
[19:36]I don't know.
[19:37]I'll get back to you.
[19:39]Okay, okay, okay, okay.
[19:41]Yeah, it might be too late for that one,
[19:43]but for the future projects.
[19:45]So anyway, he's a producer.
[19:48]He's a producer.
[19:49]Yep.
[19:50]And what advice would you have for people to questions?
[19:55]One, for people going through something similar now
[19:58]when they feel that there is something.
[20:00]in the communication that there is a gaps
[20:02]or between their family and themselves,
[20:05]like how do you navigate it?
[20:06]What advice do you have?
[20:07]Having survived this rift.
[20:09]And also then advice for aspiring artists of all kinds,
[20:14]photographers, authors, like what's your advice to them?
[20:18]So, okay, well, I'm gonna start with a second question.
[20:21]So, my advice to any artist
[20:24]because this is something that I lived through.
[20:26]There was three times in this process
[20:29]that I stayed up all night
[20:31]and decided that I was not gonna publish this book
[20:33]because I was really terrified.
[20:35]When I thought the repercussions,
[20:37]maybe we're not worth sharing this story.
[20:41]And I ultimately realized that I have to tell,
[20:47]storytelling is a way of healing.
[20:49]And making your work is really, really important.
[20:53]And I think that there will always be fear,
[20:56]but the actual work is more important to make
[20:59]than the fear is.
[21:01]And I learned that over and over and over again
[21:05]with every project.
[21:06]And if it's not scary,
[21:08]then there's actually something wrong in a way.
[21:12]Like every really, I think important thing
[21:16]that I've ever worked on or made or put out in the world
[21:19]has always been terrifying.
[21:21]And I think it's important to just keep plowing through
[21:25]and feeling all the feels
[21:26]and going to those scary places,
[21:28]but not letting it paralyze you,
[21:30]because it really can paralyze you.
[21:32]I love it.
[21:33]What about advice to navigate your family riffs?
[21:37]I think listening, I think we all,
[21:40]I think we don't listen enough.
[21:43]And I think listening is a big thing.
[21:46]And trying to put yourself,
[21:49]what I did with my parents,
[21:51]I'll never fully understand their choices,
[21:56]their political choices.
[21:57]But what I do understand is I thought back
[22:01]to where they came from.
[22:03]I think it's important to meet people where they are
[22:07]and to understand why they made the choices they made.
[22:10]Where is their fear coming from?
[22:12]Where is their pain coming from?
[22:14]Where are there certain things?
[22:16]Everyone makes choices for different reasons.
[22:19]And I think it's important to really
[22:21]actually think about more deeply without judging
[22:26]why people are making certain choices.
[22:29]And you learn a lot when you ask those questions.
[22:32]Very true.
[22:32]Excellent advice for all sorts of issues.
[22:35]Just quickly, who are some of your favorite photographers?
[22:37]Oh, God, there are so many,
[22:40]but I can say that the photographers who had an impact on me
[22:44]when I was studying as Dian Arbus,
[22:47]she was a huge influence on me.
[22:51]August Sonder, Sally Mann,
[22:54]man, golden, I'm kind of like the obvious.
[22:57]I'm not saying anything that's new here.
[23:00]But there are so many photographers.
[23:02]There's a show right now at the Guggenheim
[23:04]that I'm dying to see Jillian wearing.
[23:06]She's a photographer and artist.
[23:08]That's up right now.
[23:09]I'm trying to think what else is up right now in New York
[23:12]to see, but there's so many.
[23:14]I'm constantly looking at other people's work.
[23:16]And I love so many artists that are making work today.
[23:20]I did a whole paper in college about Sally Mann.
[23:23]This is back in like probably 1996 or something.
[23:27]Yeah.
[23:29]Anyway, and then I got her heavy red hold still.
[23:31]And that's her.
[23:32]I did.
[23:33]I should actually try to get her on the podcast.
[23:34]Oh my God.
[23:35]Oh, you should.
[23:36]Well, I absolutely should.
[23:37]I absolutely should.
[23:38]And myself a note, that would be so awesome
[23:40]since I read that book a while.
[23:41]Anyway, amazing.
[23:42]I also feel like your photographs have kind of this
[23:46]like Annie Liebowitz quality, right?
[23:48]That like interior moment.
[23:50]I don't know.
[23:51]There's something in.
[23:52]Well, we're both.
[23:53]I mean, thank you.
[23:54]I actually did just spend the day with her photographing her.
[23:57]No way.
[23:59]Yeah.
[24:00]Yeah.
[24:00]It was a very, very, very special experience.
[24:03]And yeah.
[24:05]Oh my gosh.
[24:05]That is so cool.
[24:07]It was very special.
[24:08]Wow.
[24:09]Amazing.
[24:10]All right.
[24:11]Thank you so much.
[24:12]This is so funny.
[24:13]Thank you.
[24:13]Thank you so much for much longer.
[24:15]But I better go.
[24:17]Anyway, so to be continued in person,
[24:19]I'm so excited to come see your show.
[24:21]Yeah.
[24:21]OK, great.
[24:22]So nice to meet.
[24:23]We'll talk soon and see each other soon.
[24:25]Congratulations on the book.
[24:27]Thank you.
[24:28]OK, bye-bye.
[24:30]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[24:32]Don't have time to read books.
[24:33]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens
[24:36]and at Moms.
[24:37]Don't have time to read books.
[24:38]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com
[24:41]and sign up for my virtual book club
[24:43]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[24:45]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[24:48]for the Sound Editing.
[24:49]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[24:51]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.