Chandler Baker, THE HUSBANDS: A Novel

[1:48]Zibby Owens: I'm Zibby Owens, and you're listening to the award winning podcast, Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids. Check it out, and you'll hear from 49 authors about all sorts of things moms don't have time to do. All the authors have been on this podcast. Also, check out my TikTok at withzivyandtracey, my other podcast, sex talk withzivyandtracey. Check out moms don't have time to write on Medium, and of course, my new publishing company called Zibby Books. And now back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids. Hi. Hi. Hello. Enjoy the show. Chandler Baker is the author of The Husbands, a novel. Chandler lives in Austin with her husband and toddler where she also works as a corporate attorney. She is the author of The Husbands several young adult novels and her adult debut which was Whisper Network which was a New York Times bestseller and Reese's book club Hellas and Shine Pick. She also contributed an essay in my recent anthology, Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids. Welcome, Chandler. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss the husbands.

[2:57]Chandler Baker: So exciting. Thank you for having me. I feel like I get to see you twice in one week. I know this is great. Thank you so much for doing the panel for moms no time to have kids. That was great. And thank you. I'm sure you're exhausted, but not from that, but fall off.

[3:15]Zibby Owens: Not from that. That was fun. I enjoyed that. But anyway, thank you for writing your essay. Do you want to talk Do you want to just say what it's about in case people are wondering? Sure. I wrote an essay about making online friends and how online friendships can be just as valid in your life as

[3:31]Chandler Baker: real life friendships. I know that's not the right distinction, but just the role that they've played in my life, both for writing and how they've become

[3:40]Zibby Owens: integrated into my life outside writing. I feel like my whole life is online friendship at this point. Like what is Zoom? What are we doing now? But, you know. Yes, I agree. I'm not sure,

[3:51]Chandler Baker: you know, I definitely have friends that I don't think have any online friendships. And that's like a funny thing. I think when I'm trying to describe to them my friendships that I have, and I think that's odd.

[4:03]Zibby Owens: Yeah. I met a woman the other day who was like a mom who was not on Instagram. And I was like, oh, know, I don't meet many of you these days. You know? Like, feel like everybody has, like, their online thing. But anyway, I shouldn't say that. Not not everybody has to be on Instagram. But anyway, yes, online friendships are a thing. And to those of us who are used to them, they'd probably take some explaining. So glad you did that for the rest of us. Yes. Okay. So let's talk about The Husbands, the follow-up to your massively successful Whisperer Network. And this also, of course, is massively successful. I related to so much of this book. And I have to say well, first of all, okay, why don't you tell listeners what The Husbands is about in case they are not familiar with it yet? Sure. So The Husbands is a novel that really asks how far would a woman go for a little more help from her husband. It follows Nora Spangler, who's an overworked mother and lawyer.

[4:56]Chandler Baker: And she goes house hunting in this nice suburban neighborhood with her husband, and there she meets a group of very high powered women with enviably supportive husbands. And she agrees to take on a wrongful death case for one of the community's residents. And during the course of investigating the case, she gets to know the women and finds that the air in this neighborhood called Dynasty Ranch really is different. The women aren't hanging on by a thread. And as the case unravels, she uncovers what she believes may be the secret to having it all, and it could be one that's worth killing for. Oh, that pitch is now perfect. Amazing. So

[5:36]Zibby Owens: I felt like when I was reading this, there was maybe anger is the wrong word, but there is this like resentment, right? The way that the system is set up and the expectations and mothers and fathers are different. And it doesn't matter how many strides we've all made and everything, but they're just felt like Nora is pissed. Right? She's just a little bit pissed. So I wanted to hear more about that and how to sort of toe the line of like, how do you be mad at some sort of system and not have it affect your personal relationship? Like how much of this is structural versus personal?

[6:16]Chandler Baker: Yeah. I think that I have an easier time. I think a lot of women have an easier time thinking of it as personal. Anything that happens behind closed doors inside our own marriages and families feels deeply personal. You know, those arguments that you have with your spouse that, you know, aren't perfectly articulated, you know, there's probably two sides to the story, but they just, you feel righteously indignant about them. All that feels very close. And yet, because we see almost every American family grappling with division of domestic labor, I think we can sort of scope out and realize that it is systemic. Like there are systems in place. You know, some of those things are not having paternity leave standardized in The US, you know, the way that schools often call moms first for sick kids, like the way that our, you know, work employment system is still predicated on the idea that, you know, one spouse is going to go to work and one can afford to stay home and raise the family, which isn't true probably for most American families anymore.

[7:27]Zibby Owens: So I think it's both. I think we all have personal responsibility to change it in our households, but at the same time, until some of those systemic issues are addressed, I think that it'll keep reinforcing what's already going on in our houses. I feel like things are changing pretty quickly though, at least in terms of consciousness of it. And I know you talked about Fair Play by Yvrodsky, who I adore by the way, and all of that. But even like, I have twins who are 14 and then I have like little guys. So my little guy's birthday party, like, it doesn't occur to me to when I was inviting friends to my older kids' events, I would only email the moms. And I don't know why, but I would just I was like, oh, I had my list of 60 class moms and that's who I would send it to. And then for my little guy, it's like, well, no, of course, I'm gonna email both parents. Yeah. No. I don't know. And that's only been, you know, eight years difference. And maybe I was wrong to begin with. And I apologize for that, dads who I didn't email, although I'm not sure anybody's mourning the loss of another email. Even something as minor as that in like a cultural shift, I feel like it's pervasive. I feel like the consciousness has been raised and I don't know, people are just very aware of it. Yeah. No, I think that that's

[8:36]Chandler Baker: I think that they are aware of it. I still wonder, like, it is amazing to me how rapidly our notions of even gender itself are shifting, and yet how sticky gender norms are in the home. I do still think that given how far we've come and how we think about these things, it's crazy to me that young couples are actually not leaps and bounds more modern than, you know, their parents or their grandparents.

[9:08]Zibby Owens: That's like a wild thing to think about. Think about all the changes in society and how long those have taken. I mean, not to like turn this conversation too macro, I wanna get back to your book. Yeah. I mean, it takes a while. Right? I mean, we didn't even women didn't even have the right to vote. Like taking out the garbage is you know what I mean? I'm just saying like it takes a while to to affect someone. It's

[9:28]Chandler Baker: just like women are are in the workforce so much.

[9:32]Zibby Owens: It does take a while and maybe that's reasonable, but I'm like, I wish it were faster. No. I I understand. It's frustrating. I think one of my favorite lines in this whole book is when Nora is, like, inwardly fighting with her husband, and he doesn't even know. Then she's like and then it was like, because Nora never even told her that she was mad at him, she could stop that fight whenever she wanted. I love that. I just love that. I've had thoughts like that from time to time. Like, does he even know? Like anyway, that was it. Well, I mean, a lot of it also between Nora and between many couples comes down to communication. Right? What are we okay with in our relationship and and what are we not? And I know there was this funny passage too, and if I could read like a little section. Is that okay? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is when Nora finds out she's pregnant. And again, and she says, you know, I just need time. Nora sounds like a broken record. Time, time, time. She's always stressed about time. She once heard that you can choose to worry about time or you can choose to worry about money. But the good news is you get to pick. We'll figure it out, says Hayden. We'll hire more help. It'll be okay. Nora nods. But even as he says we, she hears you. And isn't this always this magical fix for everything? Hire more help as if hiring help is as simple as ordering pizza. He holds his arms out and she allows herself to be nuzzled into his broad chest, which smells of fabric softener and deodorant. Her rib cage convulses. Her throat goes soupy. The volume of what lies ahead just this week threatens to drown her before she's even started swimming. And really, she does not want to wreck her marriage. He stretches her out to arm's length. I will help out more. He lowers his chin so that his pale blue eyes are staring directly into hers. I'll pack lunches. I'll clean up Liv's room. I'll do drop offs every day. Gratitude rises like freshly baked bread inside of her and she's thinking, yes, yes, please. Let's do that. And yet somewhere in the back of her mind, she listens for the needling sense of deja vu, the memory that perhaps she's heard this all before. Fool me once, that's to be expected. Fool me twice, that's love. I love that section. You know, I think it does show like so many men, they want to help. They deep down do not want to be unhelpful to their spouses or ineffective in their homes. I think, you know, even in the ellipsis here, I'll clean up. Don't know. He's like, I don't even know what to do to help you. Right? And that's the problem is that sometimes one person in the relationship doesn't realize the 8,000,000 things that you're keeping in your head and you want them to be like, Oh, but holiday cards need to be ordered. Like, Wait, what about this person's gift? And have you thought about that? It's one thing to assign and it's another thing to think about it ahead of time. So I don't know how we change that.

[12:11]Chandler Baker: Yes, yes. And that internal stress can weigh so heavy of like, what am I forgetting having your antenna up? But yes, all the women in my life that I know are smart, outspoken feminist women that are not doormats. They're all married to great guys. Like I don't know anybody with men that are intentionally being, you know, not feminist allies. So that's the only people that I'm really interested in exploring is like, why is there this disconnect sort of between, you know, men that do want to help, and also women feeling like they are truly able to unburden themselves of 50% of the mental load as well.

[12:53]Zibby Owens: I mean, I wonder if it's the kind of thing where our kids are the ones who are like, I'm raising two sons and two daughters. Like how do I raise them? I need to raise them to make sure they know to do all these things. Like we can model it in our home, but what if you can't? What if you don't have somebody? Like I happen to be very lucky with my husband who helps out a lot and does like all the cooking and tons of things and he thinks ahead. But what do you do if you don't have a model for the kids but you really want them to adopt these things? You can tell them over and over again. I don't know. It's like, what do you think? How do you do it with your kids?

[13:27]Chandler Baker: Well, so my daughter is six and my son is about to be two. So it's still definitely early for us and I would not consider myself any kind of expert and, you know, modeling it as a big thing. You know, obviously when, I go to write a book, well, you know, days after I had our second baby, like I am having to have my husband here to help get that done and to step up in those ways. And like you said, modeling, I think is so important. And then, you know, a lot of what I feel like I kept coming across is one, signing our sons, not just like the same amount of chores, but the same type of chores, because there is still kind of this built in assumption that certain casts are primarily women's work. Often, as Ibrodsky talks about, those tasks are part of the daily grind rather than the, as I say in the book, like at your leisure activities, like cleaning out the garage or doing the lawn, like all those are important. But I think what weighs us down is really the stuff that has to go on to continue with our day and our week and our children's day in our week. So that's something I'm going think about a lot as my son gets older and I guess just trying to learn how to communicate about it better. I think that's the thing that I feels the most me about the book is that I think like a lot of people, my husband and I both really want to communicate well about it. We know communication is the key about it, but we don't always do it perfectly. You know, we get defensive when we add something to each other's to do list. We like list what each of each other has on our plates just learning to be more receptive on both ends to how to divide up those tasks.

[15:12]Zibby Owens: I'm sorry to make you feel like you have to be the expert on this. I know this is not a non fiction book and this is an amazing narrative and, you know, with so many twists and turns and different communities and the law and, you know, family and pregnancy. And there's it's a multilayered story and was very rich with lots of things. So I just happen to be interested in this myself right now. I love

[15:35]Chandler Baker: it. I mean, that's been such a fun part is that when I have gotten to speak to book clubs or whatever about it, like everybody has something to say about this. I mean, everybody has things to say about how their own family works, why they think it works that way, how it could be better, how it is, you know, it's just, there's, it's rife with people wanting to talk about it, which is why I wrote it because I was talking to my girlfriends about this so much. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[18:55]Chandler Baker: Have you had any responses from husbands? Yeah. I've been really surprised that, you know, I've I've done a couple of book clubs where they, like, dared their husbands to read it, which is actually heard from some of the husbands. I think one of my favorite responses was that a husband said, you know, I think sometimes I'm not just oblivious, I'm willfully oblivious to it. Like I'm choosing not to see, like I do know that it's going on, but it's easier to pretend not to, which I thought was very self aware and nice to hear. But yeah, it's genuinely been like a pretty good response from men. I do think with Whisper Network, which was about sexual harassment, the men that I would hear read it were very, very supportive because I think they could say like, I know I'm not a sexual harasser. Right? Right. With this book, I think they're a little bit more, do I fall into this category of not stepping up fully? And they're a little bit less sure. So I think they can think it's a little more harsh.

[19:54]Zibby Owens: That's so funny. Oh my gosh. So I know you keep talking about Ivrodsky, but both of you are Reese's book club picks. So I'm just wondering how that whole experience was for you with Whisper Network and all of the stuff that went on around that. And like, do you meet the other Reese's Book Club authors? And like, what is that whole thing like?

[20:16]Chandler Baker: It's so funny. I do read my Goodreads reviews, which I probably shouldn't, but I saw several saying that Yves Rodsky and I were like very good friends and we've literally never interacted or talked other than me, you know, talking about her books with my friends. So I was, she's fabulous or she seems fabulous, but I'm going to introduce you right after this. I happen to be friendly with her. So I'm going to put you both on an email. Make true. Right. But yes, I have met several Reese's book club authors. You know, there's a few in Austin and some have moved away, but also at a couple of events when events were happening, which, you know, wasn't a ton of time after my book came out, after Wizarding World came out. So it, you know, it's really amazing just to, I feel my goals with my books is to create books that do feel like they foster discussion, even when it's not just about the plot of the book, but just that women want to sit down and like, and talk about them and talk about their experience. And so to be embraced by book clubs like Reese's Book Club and then Good Morning America, that feels really validating to me because it feels like it exposes it to other women that are interested in book clubs. Amazing.

[21:27]Zibby Owens: I love that. And isn't it going be a movie or did I make that up? It is, right? Yes. I am currently writing the script

[21:35]Chandler Baker: of the movie which is supposed to star Kristen Wiig with MGM and Plan B. So exciting.

[21:41]Zibby Owens: So exciting. Oh my gosh, that is amazing.

[21:44]Chandler Baker: So cool. But it's very, it's been a really fun learning process for me.

[21:50]Zibby Owens: Wow. So are you also writing another book?

[21:53]Chandler Baker: Yes. I just got notes on my third adult book, which now I'm like, okay, I got notes. So it's happening. This is going to be my third book, which is great. And it's tentatively titled, It Goes By So Fast, and it's about how sometimes it doesn't. So I feel like my books are always very much like about my life stage.

[22:14]Zibby Owens: Was literally just talking about I just like did this interview or whatever. And I was like, you know, Saturdays sometimes feel like five days long. Sometimes they do not end no matter what I do. The time just hangs.

[22:26]Chandler Baker: Then other days I'm racing against time all the time and trying to get things done under the wire and I can't get it all in. Yeah, the sort of elasticity of time. Don't know. Think a lot Thinking of about how, you know, before kids, it seems like, you know, I was just dying for the weekend and I still am dying for the weekend because I love to spend time with my kids, but, you know, you'd be so excited for Friday and like dreading Sunday night because you knew you had to go back to work. I think once you have kids, there is a little thing on Sunday night. You're like, oh, well I can at least Monday morning, have my coffee and breathe for a second on my own. And it's just, it's a real flipping perspective.

[23:05]Zibby Owens: There's almost like no time to recharge because as soon as the work week ends, you start like the weekend. And then as once I'm exhausted for the weekend, I start the work week and then I'm exhausted. It it's like this never ending thing. It is. I know. It's crazy. So in that way, it does really go by fast because I feel like the months are constantly flipping. How are we in November? I know. Like, what on earth? The holidays. I'm like, oh my gosh. And then sometimes I look around and I'm like, oh my like, how do I have kids who are gonna be in high school next year when like, I swear I was just in high school. Like, I remember everything about high school. I don't know. I said to my daughter the other day, she's 14, and she like didn't wanna do something. And I was like, do you even wanna know what I was doing when I was 14? And she's like, what were you doing when you're 14? I was like, actually, let's not talk about this.

[23:55]Chandler Baker: Backpedal, backpedal. Yeah,

[23:58]Zibby Owens: backpedal. Exactly. Oh my gosh. So what is your writing process like, especially with two little kids at home and cranking out these amazing books and all of that. Where do you write where you are right now in your office? Where do you like to write? How do you do it? How are you approaching this new book? Are you outlining the whole thing? What's your general process?

[24:20]Chandler Baker: Yeah, I do try to write in this room mostly because it does save some, you know, commute time to go set up at a coffee shop. Though sometimes I do like the change of scenery and I'll go to my local coffee shop, especially if I'm working on more than one project at once, sometimes having that physical division of like, I'm going to work on screenplay here at the coffee shop and then I'm gonna divide and then I'm going to come home and I'm going to go to my office and I'm going work on the book. That works well for me. I am lucky to have good childcare, which is really important to me. It was very important when I left my job as a lawyer that I would still be able to have childcare. And that's been a huge part of making it work with two little kids. And then in terms of the actual process, I usually start an idea by writing myself, basically a pitch for the book of trying to write like what I think would be a great back cover copy. Like would that interest me to read? So I write that, which is maybe a couple paragraphs. And that way I can keep as I write sort of referencing back to that when I go astray and be like, what was sort of the core lava of what made me excited about this idea? What am I aiming for and see if I've strayed from that? So I do a little bit of outlining. I wish I did more, but my brain just doesn't seem to want to. I usually know some of the beats, but, but not much. And then after I'm done with the draft, which is where I'm am right now, I outline the draft that I wrote. So I will then make an outline of what I wrote and then I can start to kind of lay a plan of attack for each chapter over it. So that's sort of the process that seems to be coming out the last couple of books. I feel like you only learn to write the book that you just wrote and it always

[26:06]Zibby Owens: changes a little bit, but I feel like that was starting that's been starting to work for me. So I'm going to keep trying that for a while. Awesome. That's great. And what books do you like to read? Like what are you reading now or what I know I hate to put you on the spot, are there any favorites you have or books you happen to be reading or anything?

[26:24]Chandler Baker: Yeah. I'm reading Who is Maude Dixon right now. Love that. Yes. And let's see, I mean, I'm reading a lot of books too. So I usually am listening to a book that's already out that I'm reading for pleasure. And then probably like you reading books that haven't come out yet with my eyeballs, There's another option and that's how I get kind of both done. I just read Eliza Jane Brazier's Good Rich People, which was so fun that comes out in January. In terms of stuff that's already came out yet, already come out. I read Mexican Gothic recently for Halloween and really loved that. Excellent.

[27:06]Zibby Owens: And what do you think the role is of an author in terms of like supporting other authors? Like, are you, what do you think, what do you think like being a good literary citizen is all about?

[27:15]Chandler Baker: Oh goodness. That's a great question. I mean, of course I love to support other authors, particularly in blurbing. I feel like there were people that were so generous with me with Whisper Network that I always try to keep in mind that generosity and really try to tell myself like there's never going be a time where, you know, I want to be completely close to it. I don't get to everything and that bothers me, but do try to constantly be reading with that in mind. Cause I just, I know that that feels so helpful when you're, when you have a new book coming out. You know, I really value my writing friendships and just creating a community of people because this industry is so opaque. And I do think with your close friends or even people that you're introduced to or acquaintances, it does require you to sort of be comfortable removing the veil to the extent that you can, or you feel comfortable and talking to people about brass tacks and like, how did you negotiate this? What did you ask? What, like all these different things, that inability to kind of like see what you should even be striving for in your career is really difficult. And I'm so thankful for people that have done that for me. And I still ask that mentorship of people and that if people want to know it from me, I try to provide it the other way as well. So, and then just supporting other people's books online and being responsive, all those fun things, never being too busy for that stuff that I think is sort of the core of being an author. When I became an author, I made you feel the same way. Like one of the things I was most excited about was getting to hang out with other authors and getting to talk to them. Like that was one of the goals. So now I get to do it, and I never wanna stop doing that part of it. Yeah.

[29:04]Zibby Owens: That's it's so fun. I mean, I literally am thinking like, why am I not getting tired of doing these podcasts? Like, I've done like 900 podcasts. Like, why? Why? And I just find it like endlessly interesting to talk to authors about their work. And everybody's work is so different and has such different

[29:22]Chandler Baker: I don't know. I just think it's so cool. Yes. I mean, when I was a lawyer, you know, I always think about this is if you would ask me to do like a networking event for being a lawyer, I would just shrivel and die inside. You know, I just didn't want to do it. I didn't want to put myself out there. I didn't want to really talk to people. And then immediately when I came to being an author, I was like, oh, I do want to go to the cocktail party. If there is one at an event, I want to meet people. I want to talk to these people. I want to get to know them. And that really is what kind of told me I was in the right place. Yeah. There's also something about authors where they've already like opened up so much before you've even met them, right? Like you've read their work,

[30:04]Zibby Owens: whether it's a memoir or a novel, it's like you already, they've already given you a gift. So by the time you meet them, you can like, you know, you're already in the middle of a conversation by the time you meet them versus a lawyer or whatever, like my business school, whatever. Like, why are we networking? What is the goal? Like, I don't want to network. I hated that word. I was like, I'm not going to do that. I don't network. You know? Do I want to like make a community? That's totally different than like networking because it's like a means to an end and feels like you're using people. Like, the author community is something very different in that it's, I don't know. Anyway, I want to make some sort of, you get a card or some community actually. Doctors have I want there to be some thing where you're like all actually a member of something. If you have an ISBN, you get admitted to this thing or I don't know, anyway.

[31:02]Chandler Baker: I feel like if anybody could do that.

[31:07]Zibby Owens: I'll I'll put it on. I'm adding it to the list of, like, wish list projects I have for the next hardly have any projects going on. I know. I need some stuff. I do think that this sort of membership seal thing would be good for all the impostor syndrome. Like, no. No. You are a member. You are a card carrying member. Maybe I'll make funny little cards. Yeah. Maybe I'll do that. Anyway, thank you so much. I know our time like went so fast, but thank you for chatting again and Thank you. Thank you for doing this. I'm going to connect you to Yves later today. Oh, good. Okay. Thank you so much. All right. Bye, Chandler. Bye.

[31:56]Zibby Owens: and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the sound editing, and thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.