Malcolm Gladwell, MIRACLE AND WONDER: Conversations with Paul Simon
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[0:40]Malcolm Gladwell is the author of Miracle and Wonder, Conversations with Paul Simon.
[0:46]He's also the author of seven New York Times bestsellers, including the tipping point,
[0:50]Blink Outliers, Talking to Strangers, and the Bon Rumaffia.
[0:54]He is the co-founder and president of Pushkin Industries,
[0:56]an audiobook and podcast production company that produces the podcast for
[1:00]visionist history, broken record, a music interview show, and solvable,
[1:04]which features innovative thinkers with solutions to some of the world's biggest problems.
[1:08]His latest project is this audio biography called Miracle and Wonder,
[1:12]Conversations with Paul Simon, which is what we spoke about.
[1:15]Today, you can also listen to my conversation with Malcolm about the Bon Rumaffia,
[1:20]which aired several months ago, and watch our Instagram live.
[1:23]Welcome, Malcolm.
[1:24]Thank you so much for coming on Momstone.
[1:26]Don't have time to read books to discuss Miracle and Wonder.
[1:29]All the things about Paul Simon I never knew and was excited to see and hear.
[1:34]And oh my gosh, what an immersive amazing experience.
[1:36]Thank you.
[1:37]Thank you.
[1:38]It was super fun to do.
[1:40]I bet.
[1:41]It sounded like it.
[1:43]I wish I had been sitting there with him.
[1:44]Tell listeners a little bit about it's not really even a book.
[1:48]It's like it's only an audiobook.
[1:50]It's an audio experience.
[1:51]I feel like this category needs a new name.
[1:53]Tell us about it more.
[1:55]If you have a name for this category, please.
[1:57]Let me know.
[1:58]Yes, it's what is it?
[2:00]It's we begin by me and my friend Bruce.
[2:05]We just sat down with Paul Simon for I guess it was probably almost 40 hours.
[2:09]So 10, 10 sessions of four hours each.
[2:13]And we just talked to him and played music or he played for us, sang for us.
[2:20]We just hung out basically.
[2:22]And then we took all those to all that tape and cut it down and.
[2:29]Wove a kind of argument around it.
[2:31]Try to explain what you're listening to while you're listening.
[2:34]You know, I had sort of some theories about Paul Simon.
[2:37]I wanted to kind of both run by him and run by.
[2:40]And then we put it all together into this thing called miracle wonder, which is five hours.
[2:46]And it's supposed to be the way I pitch it to him is the same way I would pitch it to anyone.
[2:51]Imagine you've never heard of Paul Simon.
[2:54]And, you know, like your, your, your, your 11 year old comes to you and says, who is Paul Simon?
[3:01]And I say, give, give your 11 year old this.
[3:05]And it will explain who is why he's important.
[3:09]And by the end, you'll be in love with Paul Simon and his music.
[3:13]That's, that's the point.
[3:14]It's true.
[3:15]I should give my kids this.
[3:16]I should have them listen to it next.
[3:17]That's important.
[3:18]We can arrange that.
[3:19]We can arrange that.
[3:20]I know.
[3:21]It's on my phone.
[3:22]I can just, you know, hand it over.
[3:23]They're on my phone all the time anyway.
[3:24]So what's the difference?
[3:25]You know, one of the interesting, interesting things you said in the recording was that at an age when many performers slow down.
[3:34]or don't create as much anymore, Paul Simon's ramped up in his production.
[3:39]Tell me a little bit about that.
[3:40]Yeah, he, you know, what fascinated one of the things that fascinated me about Paul is his longevity.
[3:48]So we're used to musicians who have this spur of creativity in their 20s.
[3:53]And then they spend the rest of their career just playing the hits they wrote when they were 25.
[3:57]You know, that's the model.
[3:59]And that's not a criticism.
[4:02]It's really, really hard to write a pop song to write more than one pop song.
[4:07]But along comes Paul Simon.
[4:09]And he had his first hit as a teenager in the 50s.
[4:13]And, you know, there are many, we interviewed a bunch of artists of other musicians about Paul.
[4:18]And some of them, you know, David Byrne, for example, says that his favorite Paul Simon album is the album.
[4:24]And the Paul Simon made, I think in 2013 called So Beautiful and So What.
[4:28]So between, he made, he's made relevant music in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s,
[4:36]arts and 20s.
[4:38]I mean, that's crazy.
[4:40]Right.
[4:41]That's sort of what we're trying to get at in the book is to explain how is that possible.
[4:46]What is it about this person that allowed him to remain so critically fertile for so long.
[4:53]And I don't know if we have a, it's partly an unanswerable question.
[4:58]But we sort of try and, I think we get close to sort of at least describing a little bit of what makes Paul Simon so extraordinary special.
[5:06]So what is the secret? What is the secret to longevity?
[5:09]Well, what is that he, he's an amazing risk taker.
[5:13]And, you know, over the course of his career, he takes a bunch of incredible risks, some of which work out in some of which don't.
[5:21]For example, you know, he's one of the top recording artists in the world when he decides to write.
[5:27]And a Broadway play.
[5:30]Kate Penn.
[5:31]And he spends two years of his life trying to master an entirely different creative form.
[5:38]And play, play comes out and gets a bad review in the near times.
[5:43]And it closes after audiences stay away and commercially, it's a failure.
[5:50]He to this day, Paul, you know, carries the wounds of that failure. But, you know, in the same spirit is what leads him to go to South Africa in 19, in the early 1980s and make wasteland, which is why not let's try something new let's, or the same spirit is what.
[6:08]He takes out with breaks up with our car phone call to recreate himself as a solo artist. I could go on and we, over the course of this book, we did like list all of these chances and risks and experiments that Paul Simon is willing to do.
[6:24]And he's willing to do them even when he's famous and comfortably off and do you really, you know, 99% of people would say after they'd done.
[6:37]I mean, I do I need to do anything else. I done one of the weird sounds and he just keeps going and taking more chances and that's that it's as much about his courage and his willingness to fail if in the pursuit of something new, you know that is incredibly admirable that's what I took away from my.
[6:59]My, from my time with him was that this is a guy with a lot of appetite for risk and curiosity that needs to be satisfied and a willingness to fail, even if, you know, in the course of trying to find something new.
[7:14]Do you think those are things that can be taught like do you think those are things that you can parents into your kids that sort of this willingness to try and all of that like do you think or do you think it's just something you're born with.
[7:29]I suspect at least some portion of it can be taught. I think it's very instructive if you want to talk about parenting in this in this context.
[7:40]It's incredibly useful for a child to see one of their parents deal gracefully with failure.
[7:48]Now, obviously catastrophic failure is not good for anyone, you know, if you were to lose your home and your job and your health and all that kind of stuff that's a trauma that is going to be.
[7:59]But I mean, there's, but there's a whole category of failures that I think could be incredibly useful that if, and if you see someone deal like I say gracefully with them, learn from them,
[8:09]accept that life has ups and downs, you know, find some sort of aligning all those kinds of things come back, you know, and show resilience.
[8:20]That's those are things I think resilience is very much something that can be taught. You have to see someone rebound from a setback before you know that rebounding from a setback is possible.
[8:32]I mean, what you said about Paul Simon a minute ago, by the way, could easily apply to you. I mean, people could say, I mean, why would Malcolm Gladwell write another book after the tipping point, like why about after outliers? Why would he keep going?
[8:44]Why would I why do you why do you keep going?
[8:46]I mean, I think the same is true. I don't mean to put myself in the same category as Paul Simon who is, you know, he's like one of the great musical geniuses of his generation.
[9:00]He just likes, he likes writing music. He likes messing around with music. I mean, it just makes him happy. I don't even think it matters to him whether the song he's working on is a massive hit or not a massive hit.
[9:12]He just likes, he just enjoys that. And I, I enjoy yesterday morning. I didn't interview with this cop. I was in Los Angeles. This retired 82 year old retired LA PD officer.
[9:26]It's like two hours long.
[9:28]And at the end of it, I was like, I just love the excuse to talk to people I would never otherwise talk to.
[9:35]I mean, I would never, if I didn't have some project I was working on, I would never meet that guy. I would never have occasion to ask him questions for two hours. I would never have heard all these crazy stories.
[9:45]Do I know whether I'll use any of that interview? I don't. Do I know whether the product comes out of that will be successful? I don't. It doesn't matter though.
[9:53]Because I had a quite fun. I mean, I, I learned this. He's like, he was just cashing.
[10:00]Erica, like I just, I now have a character in my memory
[10:03]and in my life I didn't have before.
[10:05]And I feel Paul's the same way, you know.
[10:08]He's worked, he's 80, 70, nine years old.
[10:11]He has an album coming out in March.
[10:14]Does he care whether any like it to be successful?
[10:17]But I think he just enjoyed making it, right?
[10:20]So maybe that's another one of the secrets, right?
[10:23]I mean, what, maybe he's thinking the same thing.
[10:24]What would he do if he wasn't, you know,
[10:26]sometimes like these ways of expressing ourselves
[10:29]is how we live, right?
[10:30]You might as well and some people can be more
[10:33]for public consumption than other people's.
[10:35]Yeah, I mean, he,
[10:37]one of the things that was great about,
[10:40]was we spent all this time with him, you know, 40 hours.
[10:43]And he was enjoying himself.
[10:46]Some people, you know, you know this,
[10:47]you interview people for a living.
[10:48]Sometimes when you interview people,
[10:50]it feels like work for them.
[10:52]You know, they're like, they're required to do it
[10:54]or they're supposed to do it.
[10:56]And they'd really rather be somewhere else.
[10:58]He never gave the sense that he would rather be somewhere else.
[11:01]He was just up for it.
[11:03]Cause it was like, we're talking about music.
[11:05]And for him, I joked to him once,
[11:08]and I came over with this isn't a book
[11:09]that his truest calling would have been
[11:12]as a music teacher.
[11:14]Now he would have been the most
[11:15]to overqualified music teacher about the time.
[11:17]But he just wants to tell people
[11:19]about how to make music and how music works.
[11:22]That's what made him.
[11:23]So the idea that we were gonna come and sit with him
[11:26]for as long as all of us wanted to sit.
[11:29]And he could just talk about how his mind works
[11:32]and how his music works for him.
[11:35]And we would be willing listeners to him.
[11:38]That was like, he was just like, psych, like that was fun.
[11:42]You know, and he would always at the end of every session.
[11:45]He would always say, should we do this again?
[11:47]You know, like he was, he wasn't like,
[11:49]oh, we done.
[11:51]He was always like, can we do this again?
[11:53]We were always like, yes.
[11:55]I mean, people love talking about what they're passionate about.
[11:58]That's why what you were saying, like, you know,
[12:00]people who feel when you interview them,
[12:02]who feel like, you know, you can tell when they don't
[12:04]wanna be there.
[12:05]I feel like, and you interview people all the time,
[12:07]like, isn't that my job to make them have fun
[12:10]and wanna be there and chatting with me?
[12:12]Otherwise I failed.
[12:13]Like that's my, that's my fault then.
[12:15]Yeah, I think that's true.
[12:17]And yeah, part of the job.
[12:18]I think that interviewing is funny.
[12:20]This is a tangent, but there's a lot of people now
[12:24]who have podcasts have taken up the job of an interviewer.
[12:28]And I think sometimes people don't understand how hard it is.
[12:32]I would say for the first 20 years of my career
[12:34]in journalism, I was not a very good interviewer.
[12:36]Took a long time understanding how to find
[12:40]what's interesting in another person.
[12:42]Cause sometimes people need a little help in locating.
[12:45]I think everyone is interesting,
[12:46]but some, a lot of us need help in finding
[12:49]what is interesting about our, our experiences.
[12:52]And that's what an interviewer does.
[12:54]And they encourage you and they, you know,
[12:57]they infect you with their enthusiasm.
[13:00]And that's not an easy, that's not an easy task.
[13:05]Like that, it takes years to figure out how to do that.
[13:08]Hmm, I guess.
[13:09]I don't know.
[13:10]Are we having fun?
[13:11]Are you having fun?
[13:12]I hope I'm doing a job.
[13:13]I'm having a blast.
[13:15]Oh my gosh.
[13:18]Wait, so tell me a little more about pushkins,
[13:22]the way you've reconceptualized books.
[13:24]Cause this is like a huge, amazing thing that you're doing.
[13:27]And I want to make sure everybody understands
[13:30]how cool it is.
[13:31]Because what you're essentially doing is
[13:33]you're taking what could be a book
[13:34]and your, everything is enhanced and more interesting.
[13:39]And you know, when I listened to a bomber mafia,
[13:41]it's like started there with like the clips
[13:43]and the airplanes and the, you know,
[13:44]actual news clips.
[13:45]And now here with like literally just listening
[13:48]to Paul Simon perform as you guys are chitchat.
[13:51]I mean, it's so cool.
[13:52]So how did this idea, how did that whole thing come about?
[13:57]And like what's coming next and all this cool stuff
[13:59]that you're doing?
[14:00]Well, we thought that audio books in particular
[14:04]were just people, you'd write a book
[14:06]and then they would sit you down in a studio
[14:09]for three days and you would read the book
[14:10]into a microphone.
[14:11]And that's always struck me as a total waste.
[14:15]Like there's all this, why would you squander
[14:18]all the potential of audio just by reading,
[14:21]sitting in a closet and reading for three days a year?
[14:24]Like, for example, if you interview somebody
[14:27]and I did this with talking to strangers,
[14:29]started with that book, everyone I interviewed,
[14:31]I taped them and then in the audio book,
[14:34]you heard them, not me reading their words.
[14:37]You heard them in their words.
[14:39]And then you realize, oh, if you think about a movie,
[14:42]you've ever watched a movie,
[14:45]an early cover movie that hasn't doesn't have a soundtrack?
[14:47]Yes, actually.
[14:49]And it's bizarre how bad it is, right?
[14:51]I've watched without, I was in a sound studio
[14:54]with my brothers and producer,
[14:55]while they were trying to get the sound right.
[14:57]So they would show us like the clips with nothing.
[15:00]And then they would show us like,
[15:01]and here's what it sounds like, when the door locks
[15:03]and I'm like, oh my gosh, anyway.
[15:06]So much better, right?
[15:07]Yeah, yeah.
[15:07]Well, then I thought, well, audio books should have soundtracks.
[15:10]They should have theme music.
[15:12]They should have, there's all these things
[15:15]that just can add to the emotion
[15:17]and make the experience so much more captivating.
[15:21]So you know, you can't write a,
[15:23]now we do an audio book,
[15:24]we're like, we have these brilliant musicians
[15:26]who score it for us.
[15:28]The same way you would a movie.
[15:30]For talking to strangers,
[15:31]I, Janel Manet had this unbelievable kind of protest song
[15:35]that she wrote about, about all the police shootings.
[15:38]And I called up her manager and I was like,
[15:41]I, because talking strangers began and ended
[15:44]with a story book,
[15:46]please have an encounter between an African American woman
[15:48]and a, and I call up her manager.
[15:50]So I have to have that song.
[15:51]I mean, that song belongs in my book.
[15:54]I mean, it's, and they were, she was like, absolutely.
[15:56]And so, you know, you hear that song throughout my book.
[16:01]And that's because with audio,
[16:04]I can go to a genius like Janel Manet.
[16:06]And I can say, can I borrow a little bit of your genius
[16:09]to help my book, you know, be more moving and powerful?
[16:14]And so there's all these opportunities, you know,
[16:17]same thing with the Paul Simon book.
[16:18]I mean, we could have written a print book about him,
[16:20]but then you don't get to hear Paul Simon.
[16:22]You can play and mess around on the guitar
[16:26]and like, tell funny jokes.
[16:29]And like just be his, you know,
[16:31]his kind of like beautifully weird, wonderful self.
[16:36]I wanted you to feel like you're in the room with us.
[16:40]And you can do that with audio.
[16:41]You can't do that on the page.
[16:43]So that's, that's part of what we're trying to do is
[16:46]to create a kind of intimacy with the listeners.
[16:49]And what about just doing a document?
[16:51]Like, why didn't you make it a documentary?
[16:53]Because once you add cameras,
[16:55]everything gets 100 times more expensive
[16:57]and 100 times harder.
[16:59]And I don't know whether I think that people get shy around
[17:05]that shy.
[17:07]I think sometimes the camera makes people self-conscious.
[17:10]Completely musicians, Paul's not an actor.
[17:13]He's a musician.
[17:13]He wants to be heard.
[17:15]He needs to be seen, you know.
[17:18]That dimension is not important.
[17:20]I don't know if anything would be added.
[17:22]I think sometimes as well video images
[17:25]are can be a distraction.
[17:26]Now, for certain kinds of stories there,
[17:28]not a distraction there, they are the story.
[17:31]But for a book about a musician
[17:33]and his genius, the images are a distraction.
[17:36]I want you to listen.
[17:37]I don't, I want you to close your eyes and listen.
[17:40]I don't want you, I don't want to show pictures
[17:42]of a guy with a guitar.
[17:44]You know, that's not the point here.
[17:45]The point here is to train your ear
[17:49]to appreciate the genius of this transcendent artist.
[17:55]So cool. Well, I mean, you,
[17:58]I was already a Paul Simon fan,
[18:00]but it's hard to listen without even having
[18:02]a renewed appreciation.
[18:03]Aren't you the, wait, listen, let's talk with us for a second.
[18:06]Uh-oh.
[18:08]You're kind of the quintessential.
[18:11]You grew up in New York.
[18:12]I did.
[18:13]And do you grew up in Manhattan or in Imanath?
[18:16]Manhattan.
[18:17]Yeah.
[18:18]But your, your parents and grandparents
[18:22]would be roughly the same age as Paul.
[18:24]And like, you know, generationally,
[18:27]like there's a whole group of Paul Simon fans
[18:29]from whom Paul was like, New Yorkers,
[18:32]he was one generation older, they grew up on his,
[18:35]when you were 10, I'm sure somebody played the boxer for.
[18:38]We had Graceland on in like our permanent,
[18:42]you know, the six CD thing that like slid out.
[18:45]We like always had it in there.
[18:47]And we would bring it with us on vacation
[18:49]and then play it there.
[18:51]And you know, like you're of that generation
[18:54]that as a kid, his music was all around you.
[18:57]Yeah.
[18:58]And as a New Yorker, I always feel,
[18:59]I was feeling as a special bond between Paul Simon
[19:03]such a quintessential New Yorker and New Yorkers.
[19:06]You know, like there's something about that,
[19:09]you know, his song American too,
[19:11]and one of his most beautiful songs,
[19:12]is a song really about the immigrant experience in America.
[19:16]And if you were the child or grandchild
[19:19]or great-grandchild of immigrants to this country,
[19:22]there's something about that song and him
[19:25]that just connects.
[19:27]If your parents or grandparents or great-grandparents
[19:30]came over, you know, at Ellis Island
[19:33]from escaping whatever and to this thing called America,
[19:36]it's like that song can bring you to tears.
[19:40]And so there's a, there's a bond there between,
[19:43]so I like, my point is, I'm not surprised.
[19:46]That's supposed to be.
[19:48]Okay.
[19:48]See, I didn't know where you were going with that.
[19:51]Anyway, all right.
[19:54]So Paul Simon, now this project is done out and about
[19:58]and now into the world, converting.
[20:00]more Paul Simon fans. What are you doing next? Who are you having? Aside from the policeman,
[20:05]who are you? What are your next couple projects? What's your big vision?
[20:10]There is a project that does a big thing I'm working on now. My next book, which does involve
[20:14]Los Angeles. It's all about it. It's a Los Angeles story. So I've been hanging on LA a lot
[20:19]and talking to people like a two-year-old retired at a PD officers. That's something I've been working
[20:24]on for the last of the while. I have a revision to history season seven. It comes up this
[20:29]summer and I'm just about to start work on that. I'm in that stage where I'm desperate for ideas
[20:34]and I wake up at three in the morning. I think in a cold panic, I think, what if I don't come up
[20:39]with this year? And then push, can we get a bunch of really cool things? We're doing another similar
[20:46]book project with a comedian Steve Martin. Oh, wow. Because we thought it'd be really fun.
[20:51]Comedians also, you want to hear them, right? And so that's something else we're thinking about.
[20:58]That's exciting. Now, it's true. There is this immediacy with audio that is not the same,
[21:03]right? Because basically it's literally immersive, right? You're like, putting this down into
[21:08]your body directly, like an infusion as opposed to the separation. I mean, obviously, but anyway,
[21:14]well, that sounds great. Amazing. Okay. Any, do you have any advice? Let's say people want to record
[21:19]the best audio experience they possibly can. What should they do? How can they decide from getting
[21:25]out of a closet? Like, what can they do to enhance? Because a lot of other people get assigned
[21:30]audio books to read, right? They, they don't have this opportunity. Like, what can they do to make it
[21:35]better? Or is there anything? I don't know. Yeah. Well, a lot of it is to think about, what is the great
[21:43]thing about audio is that it's intimate and it's emotional. So anything you can do to enhance
[21:48]that part of it is super, super important. So, like I said earlier about that feeling of being
[21:55]in the room with someone, that's what you want. So, you know, you with, in Miracle and Wonder,
[22:01]this Poisson book, you know, we deliberately included little bits of our conversation that were
[22:08]casual, like, you know, some of the chapters begin with this little, little bits of tape. And
[22:16]what, what you're trying to do with that is to give you a sense of, of the informal intimate
[22:24]Paul Simon, not the, not that, you know, when you're being interviewed, you put on your interview
[22:28]hat and you answer every question, clearly and precisely. And it's a formal process. But with an
[22:34]audio book, you, you have an opportunity to do something different, which is to make it just feel
[22:39]like you're chit chatting with somebody. You're just hanging out. So, anything you can do to enhance
[22:44]that kind of, and that means, as being comfortable with a certain kind of imperfection sometimes,
[22:50]being comfortable with things that are, who's, whether, with the purpose of including something
[22:57]is not necessarily to make an argument or a point, but to create a feeling. You know, in a book,
[23:02]you don't do things, you know, print book, you don't do things to create feelings, you do things
[23:06]to make your argument to prove a point. In an audio book, you, you really want feeling, you know,
[23:11]you want, you want to hear, there's a moment in this book where Paul talks about the fact that
[23:15]his mother told us this at least three times. His mother once said, you know, when he was very
[23:23]young and just doing, starting out with our car fungal, you know, Paul, you have a good voice,
[23:27]but our, but already has a great voice. And he still remembers that. It really hurt his feelings.
[23:36]And it's really important for you to hear how he says that and to feel the idea that
[23:42]even someone is ridiculously accomplished as this, still carries that a little bit of hurt,
[23:49]not because he's fragile. He's the opposite of fragile. He's insanely resilient guy, but his mom
[23:57]said something that wounded him and then also spurred him on, you know, that he's used to
[24:02]as a driver of his ambition and his creativity. It's just, it's really, it's just really,
[24:07]really, really important to hear how that will now I'm like, you know, I know what you're thinking,
[24:12]you're thinking, right? I'm like, great. I think one thing to my kids and, you know, it's going to be
[24:18]if your kid turns out to be Paul, Paul, as good as famous as a couple of his Paul Simon and
[24:23]that's probably a very useful thing to have said. But then he's going to talk about what I said
[24:27]that made him feel bad. And I'm going to look like, you know, the mean person after all his
[24:32]success. So I don't know. So what are your some now you're listening to your son being
[24:37]interviewed? And he says, I've been my mom said, I'll never forget. And you're like gaggers,
[24:43]it daggers in your heart. Totally. Oh my gosh. Well, I'll use the next 40 years to steal myself.
[24:50]I get that eventual hurt. Oh my gosh. All right. Well, Malcolm, thank you so much. Thanks for chatting
[24:57]today. I had fun. And thanks for sharing all your feelings. All right. Have a great day.
[25:03]Yeah. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books.
[25:09]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books.
[25:14]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots
[25:19]of authors on zoom every other week. Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan. Heck, texture sound for the
[25:24]sound editing. And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and
[25:28]now trim music.