Michael Tubbs, THE DEEPER THE ROOTS: A Memoir of Hope and Home
[0:01]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:05]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:07]If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:12]Check it out, and you'll hear from 49 authors about all sorts of things
[0:16]Moms Don't Have Time to Do. All the authors have been on this podcast.
[0:19]Also, check out my TikTok at with Sivi and Tracy.
[0:22]My other podcast, Sex Talk with Sivi and Tracy.
[0:25]Check out Moms Don't Have Time to Write on Medium.
[0:28]And of course, my new publishing company called Sivi Books.
[0:32]And now, back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids.
[0:37]Hi, hi, hello.
[0:38]Enjoy the show.
[0:41]Happy New Year, everyone.
[0:42]I hope you all had a great break.
[0:44]I wanted to let you know about something that I've been talking a lot about on social media at Sivi Owens,
[0:49]which is the hashtag 22 and 22 challenge.
[0:53]We are at Sivi Books.
[0:55]We are encouraging everybody like all of you to visit 22 bookstores in 2022.
[1:01]And we're going to provide a whole series of incentives for every five visits.
[1:05]And you'll be entered to win a $500 shopping spree.
[1:08]And you'll get fun things like bookmarks and all the rest.
[1:11]Plus, you'll be part of a great community of people all helping support bookstores, authors, and more.
[1:17]We're really, really excited about it.
[1:19]If you want to join sign up, you just go to 22 in 22.net.
[1:24]That's 22 in 22.net and click I'm in and put your information.
[1:29]And then every time you go to a bookstore, you just quickly go back on the site and click log a bookstore visit.
[1:34]And then we'll be keeping track and we'll be following up with all of your different achievements and awards and everything.
[1:40]So please sign up, spread the word 22 and 22, get your friends to join and start visiting bookstores.
[1:47]And it'll be really fun and exciting.
[1:50]So here's to a wonderful 2022.
[1:52]I'm so excited that you're listening to my podcast and doing all the fun things that I have been trying to bring into the world.
[1:59]So here we go, 2022, hashtag 22 in 22.
[2:04]Michael Tubbs is the author of The Deep Where the Roots, a memoir of Hope and Home.
[2:08]At the age of 26, Michael D. Tubbs became the youngest mayor of any major city in American history.
[2:13]As mayor, he was lauded for his leadership and innovation.
[2:16]Under his stewardship, Stockton was named in all American city in 2017 and 18.
[2:21]Saw a 40% drop in homicides in 2018 and 19.
[2:24]Led to the state of California in the decline of officer involved shootings in 2019.
[2:29]Was named to the second most physically healthy city in California.
[2:33]And one of the top most fiscally healthy cities in the nation.
[2:36]And was featured in an HBO documentary Stockton on my mind.
[2:41]I guess you watch that.
[2:42]Tubbs raised over $40 million to create the Stockton Scholars, a universal scholarship and mentorship program for Stockton students.
[2:49]He is the founder and chair of mayors for a guaranteed income.
[2:52]Tubbs has been named a fellow at the Harvard Institute of Politics and the MIT Media Lab.
[2:57]A member of Fortune's top 40 under 40, a Forbes 30 under 30, all star alumni, the most valuable mayor by the nation.
[3:05]The 2021 Civic Leadership Award winner from the King Center and 2019 New Frontier Award winner from JFK Library.
[3:11]Before taking the helm as mayor, he served as council member for the city of Stockton District 6.
[3:16]Was a high school educator and a fellow for the Stanford Design School and the Emerson Collective.
[3:22]The author of the memoir The Deeper the Roots.
[3:24]Tubbs currently serves as the special advisor to California Governor Gavin Newsom for economic mobility.
[3:30]And is the founder of End Poverty in California, EPIC Epic.
[3:35]Welcome, Michael.
[3:36]Thank you so much for coming on mom's time to read books to discuss the deeper the roots and memoir of hope and home.
[3:42]Amazing.
[3:43]Thank you so much for having me.
[3:45]I know we were just saying your wife was on this podcast and a really good tubs was on this podcast about a year ago.
[3:51]And I feel like maybe you're the only two people who have been married who have both been on the show.
[3:56]I'm going to rack my brain and see if I'm wrong, but I think you win that award.
[3:59]And that's incredible. I think we were talking about this last night.
[4:03]I don't know if the other husband life duos come on.
[4:07]I guess you get you you win a double date with my husband and me if you ever want it.
[4:11]We're so we're so we're always up for that.
[4:16]Okay.
[4:17]Would you mind telling listeners about your beautiful memoir.
[4:21]I was so moved by so much of this and why don't you start and discuss sort of how you decided to even write a memoir.
[4:28]And, you know, I really want to hear more about your essay for Alice Walker and how that was the first time that you shared your feelings publicly for this essay contest and how that really got you to write for the rest of your life, essentially.
[4:42]Yeah. Well, growing up, I was such a bookworm.
[4:46]I, I particularly loved two genres of books, one who has sort of coming of age memoirs folks were out of lessons coming to adults.
[4:55]And oftentimes read by black men, but I also love like are you there, God, it's me Margaret by Judy Bloom. I just love reading about people growing up as I was growing up. I found that too fast.
[5:05]And then I also was interested sort of in political biographies or biographies of leaders or memoirs by leaders about like the choices they made about like the messiness of making change happened about what it meant to lead to those two things have always been North stars.
[5:21]And I remember thinking like people do when they read books that oh one day will be cool if I had something to say I could be like this for somebody else.
[5:29]And then when I became mayor, I was elected on the same day that President Trump was elected. So a lot of people thought there was an interesting commentary on America, the fact that the country could do both things on the same night.
[5:44]I mean, what's that suggest and how to be moved forward. And, but I mean, I was busy being mayor. So I said, okay, I'll do it. And I just took a long time. And then finally with the birth of our son, Malachi, I realized we didn't make a childcare.
[6:01]I wrote this book, I could do, I have a little bit of money for childcare. But in writing it, it just became so apparent that the moment we were in was so unique that I went to have a timestamp to market so that it's not it's not sort of colored by ambition of a grander office is not colored by sort of.
[6:24]Just how you get as sometimes you get older, you become more jaded and more cynical and less on this one. But in this moment, let's write it. So that's the long answer to why the book and the first out literally the outline of the book, I wrote it in high school.
[6:42]And it was, I really did that. You could tell I'm just like very pragmatic. I did that essay contest not because I want to be honest Walker, but because I wanted to get a and drama.
[6:51]And it was extra credit. I need the extra credit to get the A.
[6:54]So that's okay. I like this essay.
[6:56]And the essay problem was how did you change your own life building on the themes of the color purple.
[7:01]And I knew it was college admissions time as well. So it's like when I can workshop this and it's going to be my college essay. So I'm just knocking out now get some feedback. So I wrote about both my mother and my father.
[7:12]And I mean, everyone in my mom was young. She looks young, but no one knew she was like nearly in high school like my age. I wrote the essay when she had me.
[7:20]And then people would always ask me about my dad. I forgot to hear them. I want to make up lies. And so the first time I told like over my father's actually been incarcerated and this is sort of what what drives me.
[7:30]And this is what I've learned from both of them.
[7:33]And I won the essay contest and I was just shocked with how mood people were by sort of the story.
[7:40]And I was like, it's just life. Like who cares because we also growing up. My mom was very adamant about you to tell people your business or our business like no one cares it's not important.
[7:50]You just do a good job. So I was shocked and I would get like literally people were sitting me scholarship checks in the mail like individuals.
[7:58]People were asking to come talk to their juvenile debt. Like it was just crazy. You know, it's like all because I wrote this essay.
[8:05]That was a marker or a spark to your point around the importance of storytelling, the importance of narrative.
[8:12]And also now that I have a little bit of a platforming and you do this so beautifully.
[8:16]The story of using your platform to lift other people up and give other voices to chance because I mean, I was Walker is Alice Walker.
[8:24]So not only was it a good essay, but the fact that Alice Walker said this essay embodies the themes of my book.
[8:32]It really just changed the trajectory of cannot be hyperbolic, but like the rest of my life was changed from that high school essay contest.
[8:41]Well, if anybody sends you a check after listening to this podcast.
[8:44]I'll split it. I know.
[8:45]I'll split it.
[8:46]I'm kidding. You can have it. It's fine. It's fine.
[8:50]Wow. Well, you know, there were so many moments in your story that were just just I can't stop thinking about.
[9:00]And so one of them was when you went to visit your father in prison for the first time and you saw him for the first time and you thought you had an idea in your head of what he would look like.
[9:10]And when you met him, you were like, he didn't really look like that looked a little bit, you know, younger, older, whatever, but he looked a little like me.
[9:18]And I feel like in a movie that there would have been like a screen, you know, like it would have faded to black when you said that line.
[9:24]Because like for me, I had to like take a pause and like you looking at him.
[9:28]It was such a poignant moment and I didn't do it justice here. By the way, I described it.
[9:32]But just the reckoning and also, you know, when you had been tutoring, that was also crazy.
[9:38]When you were tutoring, you're the prison guard son who was of your dad. That was so nuts.
[9:45]And then knowing that you meeting him. Oh my gosh. Tell me a little bit.
[9:49]Well, I actually had forgot about that prison guard moment until I was writing and his son was one of my best friends.
[9:57]So I hung out with this kid all the time. We were always.
[10:00]together. We played basketball together. I would go support Hillary's traveling
[10:04]basketball team. His mom loved me. So I was at their house nearly every weekend.
[10:09]And his mom really loved me. And his dad was cool, but he was always just looking at me.
[10:15]And particularly being one of the few black students on my all-white school,
[10:20]I was kind of used to people looking at me. But so I was just like, what's that? Do something?
[10:26]what's wrong? And finally, my friend asked his dad and his dad was like, well, there's a
[10:32]Michael Tubbs that is on the block that I police. And he's like, I just keep looking at him like,
[10:40]this kid, that's two doing my son. And so well, mattered. How can he be related to someone inside
[10:48]the prison? And then my friend told me this. And he's like, yeah, it's like some dude, Michael Tubbs
[10:54]in his prison. Like, he's like trying to figure out as he related to you. And I remember just
[10:59]feeling like my breath was taken away. I'm like 12, 13 years old. I remember feeling like very
[11:07]proud. But also very sad. Like, wow. Like, my friends dad knows my dad better than me. And wow.
[11:13]Like, but also very proud. Like, wow. I'm two doing his sudden and math. Like, I felt really good
[11:20]and then later I in the visiting my father. And I mean, when you're young and you have a
[11:26]visited imagination, particularly something's gone. I give you the space to dream. So I just dream
[11:31]my dad was like, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Like, he's in prison. So he's super buff and he's strong.
[11:37]And he's going to, but I had no idea what you never thought what he looked like. Like physically,
[11:43]like he's this big strong and something new. And then when I saw him, he was about my age now.
[11:49]like 31 years old. So he looked really young, looked a little bit tired. But the biggest thing,
[11:56]I was like, oh my gosh. Like, I looked like, like he looks like me. And I didn't, which is dumb.
[12:02]Like, of course, you look like your parents, you came from somewhere. But because he wasn't there,
[12:06]I, there was no constant reflection. That's when I saw him. I was just like, oh my gosh.
[12:12]He looks like me. And then I think one of the things I took away from that meeting was like,
[12:17]this could be me. Like, like, this is like, it's not some abstract notion. Like,
[12:22]there's a mirror image of you in a place like this. So how do you make sure that doesn't
[12:27]happen? And that became sort of a huge motivation, a great strength, but also a great weakness
[12:33]in terms of being just low laser focused, hyper determined, like pit bull lock jaws on doing
[12:39]everything possible to make sure I was successful, make sure I did everything right, make sure
[12:44]I was able to do better than my parents. Well, I also feel like you had your mother there
[12:49]making sure that that was going to happen. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think sort of
[12:53]the determination. If night in eight, it was definitely a learned survival defense,
[12:58]because you can't live with my mom and not do well. And I got that.
[13:06]You're going, you're going, boy, the term that she's going to make you determine it.
[13:10]Yeah. I think I need to parent a little bit more like your mom, I swear. I mean,
[13:18]I also loved how you always said how wherever you were, even when you were in the temporary housing
[13:23]and all you had was like a block of cheese from the state or something to eat, your mother was so
[13:27]classy. Right. She was always just like, this is where we are now. This is not where we're meant
[13:31]to be. Like, this is not where you're going to be. And this is just don't make this about who
[13:35]you are. This is just where we happen to be. I feel like there's such a huge distinction there. And
[13:39]that you sort of insulated yourself against the neighborhood and just like, did your thing and
[13:45]knew you were just passing through. Yeah. I credit her for sort of just a vision that was different
[13:53]and just refusing to be defined by, like, very adverse circumstances and never being comfortable,
[14:00]never being, or even if it was like, this is good enough for me, this won't begin to for you.
[14:07]And I choose this very descent. So many signals, like, you don't belong here. Like, this is not like,
[14:14]you know, there's more for you. And also that just because these things happening, we're still
[14:20]living with dignity. Like, yes, we could be upset, right? So yes, we could be angry and we should be,
[14:25]but you're like, sort of sitting there. So I mean, like, living in the projects, we're going
[14:31]like the best private school. Like, the thing she did, like, like, she just made sure that I just
[14:38]did not have work that I had value. And I, you don't recognize that when you were a kid. And
[14:42]it wasn't so I really sat down and wrote this book and thought about like, wow, mom and my grandma
[14:47]and you guys were brilliant in making sure we did not internalize our environment. And that we
[14:53]did not internalize sort of the things that were bad, but that you just kept telling us like,
[14:57]no, this is what we are. But where you're going is dependent on other that you have some agency
[15:03]and how that goes. And even though now in my current work, I'm always saying my policy policy
[15:08]policy policy, I'm so thankful that as a child, when I had no sale for policy, my mom really instilled
[15:14]in the agents. So you can make the change. How do we navigate and get through with interesting?
[15:20]Yeah. And that was one thing you said your father didn't, he was like, it was like a victim of the
[15:24]system. Like at home, it was all about agency. And here it was like resignation. But you know,
[15:29]I, as I was reading your book, and obviously there's like a spoiler, which is we all know you become
[15:33]the mayor, Janet, which is like amazing. But I try not to think about it, but I was reading and being
[15:36]like, what's going to happen to this guy? Who knows? So I'm watching you grow up. And obviously
[15:41]you're so bright. And it was so interesting how, you know, you were sort of straddled the two
[15:46]different social circles. And when you're in the international baccalaureate program, how you had to
[15:50]like make friends across both lines. And I was like, okay, great. He's like super smart. I totally
[15:54]no matter what. Like this book where I'm really smart. But then when you when you filed some sort of
[16:00]like civil rights lawsuit against your teacher, I was like, okay, here's where this guy differs
[16:06]from anyone else, right? He would never in a million years occur to me to file a lawsuit or like to
[16:11]take things to that level. And I was like, this is like, I don't know. That seemed to me the moment
[16:15]that really set you apart that you so tell me that tell that story. Yeah, I did well in school
[16:21]in spite of most of my teachers that because of and again, now as a 31 year old as an educator
[16:27]spent years teaching students, I get how I could have been annoying. Like I was very energetic.
[16:34]I was very, like all the things people like about me now, I was really the same way at like
[16:38]13 years old. I wasn't the mayor. So just like, like, why do you think? So I had so much energy. I
[16:45]always went to the group projects. If I was done, I went to walk and talk to my classmates. I
[16:49]disagree. I would raise my hand. And I don't think. So I get why I was annoying for some teachers,
[16:56]but I don't agree with this. Like kicking me out every day. And literally, it's no exaggeration.
[17:00]Every single day, I was kicked out at least one class. And luckily, I like schools. I think
[17:06]about sort of what message I've seen. It's like every day you show up excited for class and like,
[17:10]get out like you don't belong here. Like, like, like that, I'm glad I had those other messages
[17:15]from home and from church. I'm like, no, no, no, you're fine. We've got to figure out how to make
[17:19]this work. And then one teacher, in particular, was my high school biology teacher, who was a
[17:23]former officer. And it was weird because like the Ivy program had this like, hoddiness to it,
[17:29]where we were better smarter, more worthy of resources and support than all the other kids in the
[17:37]school. And I've always bothered. And he would say things like every class, like, well, those kids
[17:44]all saw it. Like, there was noise noise outside. Well, those kids were in a popular gas one day,
[17:49]or those kids were not highway to prison. And there's things like that. And we just,
[17:54]then he was a bully. Like, he had like this helmet called the retired helmet,
[17:58]where if you asked the question he thought was dumb or say a statement he thought was dumb,
[18:03]you'd have to write the quote and put it on the helmet. And I mean, as a 15 year old, six year
[18:09]I think it's funny, but now it's an adult. That's abuse. Like, you're making the question,
[18:13]an unsafe environment for inquiry. Like, what? Like, you, you'd be terrified to ask a question
[18:20]about the cause of a biology we were learning because you didn't want to be on the retard helmet.
[18:24]And you would have to wear it in class. And he would take a picture of you. And it says,
[18:27]a retard. Like, like, being my whole violent bad is, right? I would never speak. I was shy
[18:34]enough to begin with. Like, if that was one of the risks, there's no, I wouldn't,
[18:38]like, I always even sounded like ever. It's crazy. So we, and then I noticed every time
[18:46]things would be normal, but every quarter around the end of the quarter, obviously there would
[18:51]be zeros. I mean, no, I did that. Right. But so that's the point where I would literally
[18:56]photocopy my work before I turned it in. So if it was a zero, but I don't know if it was right here,
[19:01]that's how crazy it got or a lot of our tests were based on drawing. And I'm not, I can't draw.
[19:07]I don't know if there's a learning difference or something. I really have never been able to
[19:11]draw well, like at all. So I would draw things and label it correctly. And it would be half the test.
[19:16]And he would give like zero looks nothing like the heart. But it's like, I'm not, it's in a
[19:21]heart class. It did. And why not give us the heart? So we could just label the things that that's
[19:25]which one is to get into. But it's really about the quality of my drawings, right? And I just,
[19:31]and he was really upset when I got into Stanford. And he told everyone he ever listened to
[19:35]him that I played my black card to get into Stanford or I went to Coca Cola scholarship. But he
[19:42]said, well, Michael gets scholarships because he's the color of the drink. And he was said,
[19:45]it's my classmates, right? Who were, who didn't get to Stanford, like building resentment and anger,
[19:51]if it's wrong towards me. So longer story short towards the end, like my Grayler from like a B to a D,
[19:59]and you can get me sick.
[20:00]did from Stanford for that. So to your point, I had to think about, sir, what could I do to make
[20:05]sure that I wasn't rescinded and to also signal to Stanford the series? Like, I'm not making this
[20:11]up. It's not like some seniorized stuff. This is like real like craziness. So I was like, you know,
[20:16]I have to file a formal complaint. So I wrote the complaint. I gave it to probably it is if he
[20:21]we met, we met with the superintendent. They did investigation and starting that next year, he was
[20:27]he's not, he hasn't talked about high school since. He's not allowed to teach it or high schools.
[20:32]He still teaches community college. And my admissions officer called me, and this is all like the
[20:37]day before graduation too. Like, honestly, it's having a day before graduation. You're supposed to
[20:41]so excited. I have my nervous as hell. Like, like, it might go to college. I guess everyone
[20:45]think I'm a failure. Like, what is he in the win? And my admissions officer called me crying. It was like,
[20:51]thank you for this. I'm so sorry you went through this. And she said, I'm glad you did this. I need
[20:56]proof or evidence. Like, this is not just a case of seniorized. So I'm glad you had the mind to do
[21:01]this. And with all that said, I should have mentioned this in the book. I started Stanford on academic
[21:06]probation because of that class. I started Stanford games like you have to get a 3.0. You're
[21:12]because of that. And the last thing I'll say because I'm waxing poetic now is that it was so
[21:18]frustrating because even in talking with the superintendent who agreed with my claims said,
[21:24]I can't make him change your grade. Wait, what he's like, I legally cannot tell him
[21:31]or make him change your grade. And for me, it was just an example of how power operates and how sort
[21:37]of we have all types of people with all types of control of people's futures with like unchecked
[21:43]power, like veto power. And that's to your point. I became really interested in like,
[21:48]how do we change that? Or how do we at least change some of the people who have the power? So it
[21:53]operates in a way that's everyone's best interest. So that was longer than the book. But you
[21:57]know, I love it. I'm talking to you. I love hearing this. I like the backstory. I read the
[22:04]book. Like I liked the extra stuff. This is like the bonus material. I'm like, I've made it through
[22:08]the movie. And now I get the extra clip or something. Anyway, well, I, you know, hats off to you because
[22:14]that took, I mean, obviously you're brilliant, but that took real brilliance to go that route.
[22:18]And you know, it just like makes me so depressed to think about all the teachers who do this
[22:23]with no checks and balances ever. And the kids who have been affected by teachers like that
[22:29]even write the second somebody sitting in a classroom and there's some guy who's just belittling
[22:35]a student. And you know, as I've, as I've done all these podcasts, like honestly, the most
[22:39]important thing to becoming a writer, I've found one of them is if somebody acknowledges your talent,
[22:45]like look at you and Alice Walker. You see one person, one adult to say, Hey, you're a good writer,
[22:50]you have talent. And then that's like enough. But if you don't have anyone, you know, well,
[22:55]there's always research about how students in particular rise to the expectations of those
[23:02]authority, whether it's a parent, whether it's a teacher, there's like the study down with teachers
[23:06]that all the students came in at the equal level. And the teachers were told before the year
[23:11]that this half of the class was advanced, this half of the class was not advanced.
[23:15]At the end of the year, the side of the class I was said that she was told was the teacher was told
[23:20]was advanced, actually became advanced. And the side of the class that wasn't advanced or that
[23:25]wasn't average became below average because they were told they're below average, that is because
[23:30]all these like the expectations, the way they were challenged, the way they taught like
[23:35]it's wild. So there's so much authority adults have. And I think a big part of the book is
[23:40]illustrated strength. You're playing by Alice Walker and other like the woman on my church would
[23:43]give me books. Yeah, one of the things while we work to change a system, how one adult can make
[23:49]a world a difference about we all have a role to play in and identifying, mentoring, and supporting
[23:54]the young people in our communities who we have no idea who they can be, which is a little bit of
[24:00]love and a little bit of support. Well, I don't want you to have to go into your whole political
[24:04]philosophy and you know, all of that. But how like, what are you doing for education then with
[24:10]all of this background? Yeah, so my master is actually an education policy. So before I went
[24:16]for city council, I found it going to be a superintendent. I went to be a superintendent of a school
[24:19]district and I went to open like a boarding school and stopped and that was like my dream. And maybe
[24:25]that every time. So maybe eventually that that would happen. And when I was mayor, I started a
[24:30]program called Stockton Scholars that's still going on. I'm still the chair of it where every single
[24:34]student from our school districts, we graduate with just a 2.0 or higher, is guaranteed a scholarship
[24:40]to community college, trade school or four year school. And then on top of that, we have a bunch
[24:45]of like sort of service learning placement so that when they're in college, they can come back and
[24:49]serve as reading coaches or math tutors and stuff within our school system. And then I kind of
[24:54]wrote this book as a, I used to run a book club and I was also the council. And I wrote this book
[25:01]as a way to sort of hopefully get students like me who are in IB. And also to learn in IB,
[25:08]like a real flesh and blood story of a politician that's closer to the age of a politician who
[25:17]sort of make feel more accessible because you're like your local politician, not like a
[25:21]senator or president. So I hope that over the next year or two, I kind of have a lot of conversation
[25:27]with schools and groups about sort of the book and about sort of some of the lessons in there.
[25:34]And I hope that everyone, particularly young people, read it and find inspiration, find solace. But
[25:40]I think the most important thing for me is for them to read it and find like, oh, I'm not crazy.
[25:44]Like, oh, like I should be upset about the things that aren't just. Oh, wow. But yet this is
[25:50]hard with its possible or wow. Like, I could actually, I could do it. Right. And that's my biggest
[25:56]prayer. Wow. Well, I think it's also inspiring because both you and was it your dad originally
[26:03]were both, they both called you the mayor, right? Of your schools, right? You like held court at
[26:07]the table and you were like, I want everybody to know I'm cool. Even if they're not my friend,
[26:13]sorry to even try to say it. But anyway, I was just quoting, you know, thank you.
[26:18]No, it fit like you had the inflection right to appreciate it. Okay, good. But the crazy, not crazy,
[26:24]but just the magic part of the story is that then you actually do that. Great. So for all those
[26:30]people who have this skill, right, the social skill and the and the intellectual abilities and all
[26:36]of it, like that can all, you don't have to just be the mayor of your seventh grade. Right. You
[26:41]can actually be the mayor. So I don't know. I think that's also really exciting too because it feels
[26:47]really impossible to make a difference and to be in politics or maybe, you know,
[26:50]there's it gets a bad rap of what you have to sacrifice to be in politics. So anyway,
[26:56]that's a really another thing that I found very inspiring. Anyway, last question for you,
[27:00]because I feel like I could talk all day, but maybe we'll do that over dinner with you.
[27:04]Yeah, we are. I'm telling you, we are so down. What advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[27:11]Writing is so hard and particularly for someone who writing is not there,
[27:17]like, dated like my wife is she has such a discipline about us. We're writing our books at the same
[27:21]time. I actually got my deal two years before her and her book was still out the year before.
[27:27]Doing her PhD and while being pregnant and planning a wedding and all this other. But
[27:32]she has a discipline about her where every day she would write for two hours. And I'm just not
[27:36]disciplined in that way. So it's like, I have to be in the mood. I have to have inspiration,
[27:41]be really focused. I have to be facing a tough deadline or I have to need like childcare.
[27:45]Like it has to be very tangible, but I would tell authors that for me, the guiding light
[27:52]was I think it's my agile quote that said there's, and I'm going to mess it up. But basically,
[27:57]there's no worse burden than a story that has yet to be untold or to have a story in you
[28:04]that you haven't told. And I think that was a real guiding light. Like, oh, wow, even if no one
[28:08]else reads this, like this is important for me, like this, there's something I have something to say.
[28:14]And then number two, I would say you have to be authentic. I know. So I had really great editors,
[28:19]but even in the editing process, there's like some things that I need over explained or some things.
[28:25]I don't know. And it was like, I have to be true and authentic. So I think that's part of it.
[28:31]And then number three, you're never done. Like, I craned sometimes. We're going to have to read
[28:37]about, oh my gosh, I should add this or not. This story, I think that's the beauty of writing is
[28:42]iterative. So even when your book is finished, it's only just starting. And the best part is we need
[28:48]to talk to other people about what resonating with film or what they connect with or what they thought.
[28:52]And the last thing I'll say is I remember in high school, we should do all this literary analysis,
[28:58]we always talk about what the author meant. And I always wondered, are authors really that
[29:03]intentional and think of all these themes and all these little trees? That's exactly what I was thinking
[29:08]about. I'm like, I like to write. I don't put any of the stuff. There's some things I did
[29:16]intentionally, but some of the stuff people are coming up with. I'm like, wow, that's it.
[29:21]I didn't think of that, but that's brilliant. I wish I had because that makes a lot of sense.
[29:26]So funny. I know. I was like, I don't understand what we're analyzing things this way. I promise you,
[29:30]the author didn't mean to do that. That didn't go over well. No, I'm like, my teacher's like, no,
[29:35]and anyway, so I'm delighted to hear you say that, but I'm glad. Yeah, sometimes it's easy to just
[29:41]extrapolate after the fact. But anyway, all right, Michael, thank you so much. This has been so
[29:46]fun. Thank you for sharing your story. And oh my gosh, you're so young. I mean, I'm only 45,
[29:51]but I'll pretend that I'm your older and wiser person. We wait to see all the stuff that you do
[29:57]in the world and all the other books.
[30:00]that might come out and just the good work you're going to do.
[30:02]So go for the gunker.
[30:04]Well, thank you for having me.
[30:05]Can't wait to wear a double date.
[30:07]Yeah, wait.
[30:07]OK, bye-bye.
[30:08]Bye-bye.
[30:10]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time
[30:13]to Read Books.
[30:14]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at ZB Owens,
[30:17]and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[30:19]Also, sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com
[30:21]and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:23]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:26]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[30:27]at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[30:29]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:31]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.