Tracey Michae’l Lewis-Giggetts, BLACK JOY: Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration
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[0:41]Tracy Michael Lewis Giggets is the author of Black Joy, Stories of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration.
[0:48]She's the author of 15 books and the host of the podcast, Heart Talk with Tracy Michael.
[0:53]Her writing has appeared in a variety of publications, including the Washington Post, Essence,
[0:57]and Upper Daily, and more.
[0:58]We had such an amazing conversation.
[1:00]I hope you'll listen.
[1:01]All right.
[1:02]Welcome, Tracy.
[1:03]Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Vex to discuss Black Joy, Stories
[1:07]of Resistance, Resilience, and Restoration.
[1:10]Thank you so much.
[1:11]Thank you for having me.
[1:12]I appreciate you.
[1:13]Tracy, your stories.
[1:15]They're so open and raw and beautiful, and there's so much pain in so many parts.
[1:22]And I just was reading, and I was like, oh my gosh, I wish I could just reach through
[1:27]this book and hug this woman for some of this stuff.
[1:30]But also you come at it from such a positive point of view and such empowering advice
[1:36]to adopt to this Black Joy frame of mind and sort of own it and everything.
[1:43]And anyway, I was so moved.
[1:45]I was really, really moved and touched.
[1:47]Thank you.
[1:48]That means, that means a lot because that's what I hope that people get from the book,
[1:54]not just the pain, but also the joy.
[1:57]Yes.
[1:58]Yes.
[1:59]Yes.
[2:00]I know I mentioned a minute ago your grandmother because you did such a great job of describing
[2:06]her, Vila Brown.
[2:07]Right.
[2:08]It was that her name.
[2:09]Viola.
[2:10]And everything from the seven books a week that she read, and James Patterson loving
[2:16]and how your family thought she was kind of bougie, but she loved it and just how close
[2:22]and the feeling you had, the feeling of safety and protection that you got and how sad
[2:28]when she died.
[2:29]Oh my gosh.
[2:30]I'm just, you know, as somebody who's been close to both my grandmothers, this I just
[2:34]was still moving.
[2:35]Tell me more about her and more about your relationship.
[2:38]You know, one of the things that sort of led to me writing that was that there were
[2:43]so many things, I think I'm going to start tearing up already, like there were so many
[2:48]things that I wish I had had an opportunity, the presence of mine to say before she passed.
[2:55]There's so many things that I wanted to know that I feel like are in some ways kind of
[3:00]lost in the ether, right?
[3:01]Like I just don't have those answers.
[3:04]And so she was, she was something else.
[3:08]She was, you know, not what people would traditionally envision as the black grandmother
[3:14]that we see in media, right?
[3:16]Like the, you know, the moo-moo wearing, you know, Bible-toting.
[3:20]She was very sophisticated, she was, you know, and, you know, no shade to that.
[3:26]Like my great grandmother was that figure in my life.
[3:29]She just was just someone that you looked and you admired.
[3:34]But what I didn't know that there was so much behind that.
[3:37]There was so much story behind that.
[3:38]There were so many things that I carry generationally that I didn't even, I wasn't even
[3:42]aware came from her.
[3:44]And so in looking back in hindsight, I was able to go back into those memories of like
[3:50]her chain smoking while I'm in the bed with her, you know, or all of these moments and
[3:55]really unpack them for the, the way that she showed joy, the way that she showed love,
[4:01]which was not traditional, was not the thing that people would say, oh yeah, that was love
[4:08]or that's joy.
[4:09]It was just the safety and the protection that I felt when I was around her.
[4:13]And I mean, she traveled the world.
[4:16]She worked with like high profile people and their children and, but again, not falling
[4:23]into this model of, you know, what's my call, the Mami model or, you know, the black house
[4:29]keeper or something like that.
[4:31]She was very vocal, very, you know, open about who she was and blackity, black, black,
[4:37]black, black, black.
[4:38]And, you know, it never stopped her.
[4:43]She was able to reinvent herself over and over again and I, I take that, I carry that with
[4:48]me.
[4:49]Oh, you know, one of the things you wrote about her, which I felt so deeply as when you
[4:53]said that, you know, she said she was, that she would be fine, right?
[4:57]She was ready to go.
[4:58]And you're like, well, why do you have to take all your stories with you?
[5:01]Right.
[5:02]And that's, I feel that way so much about people that I've lost and I'm going to cry.
[5:07]Yeah, I mean, and I think sometimes that that generation, right, like the greatest generation
[5:15]or, you know, whatever you want to call this island generation and especially within black
[5:19]communities, like there's this, you know, you keep some things, you know, you don't talk
[5:24]about certain things.
[5:25]You don't talk about your trauma.
[5:27]You don't talk about the hard things, right?
[5:30]Especially, there's a fear, I guess, around it.
[5:33]And so there were so many things that I learned after the fact from just talking to people.
[5:38]I've begun to do genealogical work, so I was able to kind of trace her line and things
[5:44]I was uncovering.
[5:45]And I was like, oh my goodness, Gritty, why, why do you tell me this?
[5:49]And I think towards the end of her life, she was starting to open up, but I was in my early
[5:54]twenties and living in Chicago and, you know, not even had the presence of mine.
[6:00]And actually, it wasn't until I had my own child that I recognized the importance of that.
[6:06]So yeah, I get it.
[6:08]It's, you know, those stories, I don't like to think of them now as lost, though.
[6:12]I like to think of them as, you know, part of my journey of uncovering.
[6:17]It's just going to take a little bit longer for me to do that.
[6:19]Yeah.
[6:20]Like they're tucked in.
[6:21]They're just buried waiting to peek out again.
[6:23]Well, I mean, most young people don't realize when like their grandmother is depressed, right?
[6:28]You don't think about things like that.
[6:30]Great.
[6:31]It doesn't.
[6:32]It's not even on the radar.
[6:33]I don't know.
[6:34]I think you should read a whole book just about her, honestly, I feel like that would be
[6:36]so great.
[6:37]I mean, I don't know.
[6:38]Anyway.
[6:39]And then also your cousin.
[6:40]Oh my gosh.
[6:41]I am so sorry.
[6:43]So your cousin for listeners and I'm forgetting half the time that people even listen
[6:46]to these conversations.
[6:47]I'm just like deep in it.
[6:50]But your cousin was shot at the grocery store randomly for no reason.
[6:57]It's so awful.
[6:58]I'm so sorry.
[6:59]I mean, how do you even, I mean, like there's so much, you reference the body keeps the
[7:05]score so many times and the way that trauma sort of affects you physically.
[7:09]And then you referenced your own sort of, you know, physical side effects, if you will,
[7:14]of all the stuff, right?
[7:16]That comes from that.
[7:18]Just tell me, I mean, you don't have to have it's too painful, but just the shot, like
[7:23]all the emotions from anger to shock to sadness, I mean, that is, it's just so awful.
[7:30]And the saddest part for me in reading it is you're like, well, this is, this is what
[7:34]I've been told.
[7:35]This is just how it is, especially in Kentucky as a black person in Kentucky.
[7:38]Like this is, it's just never going to change.
[7:40]And that felt like one of the more hopeless moments in a book that was filled with hope.
[7:45]Right.
[7:46]You know, you, if I can just like paint a picture, like, there I was, a writer writing
[7:52]about racial reconciliation, writing about racism and social justice issues, you know, telling
[7:58]the stories of Philando Castillo and Trayvon Martin and talking about these people, these
[8:05]people that were my people, right?
[8:09]But there was still distance.
[8:11]And then to have this moment where I get this phone call that day, I'd heard like, like
[8:15]we all do on social media, like we hear about a shooting.
[8:19]And then if it's close to some place that we know or that we grow up, you know, we kind
[8:23]of like, check in like, hey, what's going on?
[8:25]And so I did that earlier in the day when I first heard about it.
[8:28]I posted on social media like, hey, heard there was a shooting in J town.
[8:34]What's going on?
[8:35]Check in everyone.
[8:36]Didn't think anything you don't think that it's going to hit home, right?
[8:41]Even Black folks who move through the world with this sense and this understanding that,
[8:46]you know, we are seeing review differently.
[8:49]And so therefore the opportunity of the possibility for violence can't is very present.
[8:55]I still never occurred to me that this would hit home.
[8:59]And so I got the phone call from my mom who lives right across the street from the grocery.
[9:08]It's my elder cousin, but I called her aunt, Aunt Vicki, you know, said it was it was
[9:13]Vicki.
[9:14]And like I lost it, like I just I was in the kitchen.
[9:17]I just sank on the floor because, you know, she's she was the sweetest person, like, you
[9:23]know, not that anyone would ever deserve that, but certainly not someone who would have
[9:27]helped this man, right?
[9:29]And you know, you said something for no reason that she was shot for no reason.
[9:34]I kind of I wrestled with that because on the one hand, it was something random that nobody
[9:39]expected, but on the other hand, there was a reason, right?
[9:44]I'm sorry, you're right, you're right, you're right, no, no, no, but the choice of her, the choice
[9:52]of her.
[9:53]Exactly, exactly, absolutely, you know, and so for him to say, you know, to, you know,
[9:59]another one, another one.
[10:00]I stand there.
[10:01]Oh, I'm not going to shoot you, you know, because you're white, you know, it's a, and
[10:06]he had just been 15 minutes earlier at my parents' church trying to get into the church.
[10:14]But because of Charleston, a few, few years earlier, they had put security in place.
[10:19]My parents were just there the hour before for their afternoon Bible study or whatever.
[10:24]So like it was going to hit my family regardless, you know, and so the knowledge of that
[10:29]really sent me, you were talking about like the body really sent me into a grieving
[10:34]space that I didn't know how to navigate.
[10:38]You know, I've had loss in the past.
[10:40]I've had trauma, my own personal trauma in the past, but this felt like something different
[10:47]because it was the same old story around race that I had been writing about for all of these
[10:51]years.
[10:52]Only difference it was that it was my family, it was my home.
[10:56]And yeah, so in unraveling that though, I will say is how I found joy, like how I understood
[11:04]that joy was living in that same space with me, right?
[11:10]And so I had to go through this process of unpacking and accessing joy, which is black
[11:16]joy because it lives in the context that other groups don't necessarily have as an experience.
[11:23]So I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
[11:28]Okay, now we've both cried, it's only been like 10 minutes.
[11:32]If we had the day together, we'd be like a mess on the floor, exactly.
[11:38]You wrote this, healing tears, yes, yes, yes, we would feel much better at the end.
[11:45]You wrote this paragraph sort of as a like a thesis statement to the book essentially about
[11:49]black joy.
[11:50]So I thought I could just read that if you don't mind.
[11:52]You said, when attempts are made to define what liberation and equity looks like for black
[11:57]people, we often hear the language of striving and collective burdens and rightfully so.
[12:01]Our history is filled with the evidence that struggle and dogmatic persistence has been
[12:05]integral to our 400 year long freedom project that can't see anything.
[12:09]But as more and more studies reveal, the lens of struggle as the means to freedom has
[12:12]not come without a cost.
[12:14]The physical, psychological and spiritual impact of racial trauma has often found us crossing
[12:19]the finish line of every battle, war, torn and broken from the inside out.
[12:23]As a writer, storyteller and back and black contemplative, I'm not sure I can ignore this
[12:28]for much longer, especially when there's another significant tool in our arsenal, one that
[12:32]not only deeply disturbs the racist systems we are trying to dismantle, but also offers
[12:37]a direct path to healing and wholeness as we do so.
[12:40]That weapon is powerful and all encompassing and necessary.
[12:44]That weapon is joy.
[12:46]So beautiful.
[12:47]Thank you.
[12:49]Thank you so much.
[12:50]I was, you know, the writing process is such a weird thing for me, you know, and really
[12:57]just, you know, I was writing these essays, I've written the essay for the Washington
[13:01]Post that kind of sparked the whole thing, the whole process of putting this book together.
[13:07]But I had to go back and like, what am I, what am I trying to say?
[13:11]Like, what is the core point of this book?
[13:15]And I think that's really it that, you know, our experience as black people in this country,
[13:22]what we've seen has always been around struggle around the trauma, around, you know, fighting
[13:29]against stereotypes and biases and all of that, fighting against white supremacy, all of
[13:33]those things, very real, very necessary.
[13:37]That's the work, right?
[13:38]That's the work of liberation.
[13:40]But I also felt like there was another work happening simultaneously that wasn't being talked
[13:45]about.
[13:46]So I'm not presenting anything new, right?
[13:49]Like I'm not saying, hey, I got the answer.
[13:52]I'm the black joy expert.
[13:53]No, what I did was I went and unpacked all the stories of how these two things, this
[13:59]trauma and this joy, lived together and I went to my grandmother and I went to my great
[14:03]grandmother and I went to my own personal experiences on the job, you know, or, you
[14:09]know, writing or with my husband making him, you know, chili or, you know, those things,
[14:15]like, you know, and said, oh, like, we've been doing this.
[14:19]Like we've been, you know, the everyone says, you know, black folks are the most resilient,
[14:24]you know, folks, people on the planet, right?
[14:27]Because of that 400 long, you know, freedom project.
[14:31]But I wanted to know where that resilience comes from and what is, how can we tap into
[14:36]it?
[14:37]And wield it, even as we're fighting for voting rights, even as we're fight like for
[14:42]all of these things, like how can we wield this so that we are not so broken once we
[14:48]arrive with at wherever, you know, policy we're trying to get whatever, you know, action
[14:53]we're trying to take, we're not so broken on the inside.
[14:56]And so that that is essentially what I tried to do by telling my own stories, the stories
[15:01]of my family, you know, and stories of, you know, observations of just life in general.
[15:07]And the stories of your daughter, and even, you know, the story you told about dancing
[15:13]in the rain during the pandemic, I loved that it was just beautiful.
[15:17]I had one time in this rain storm, it made me think of this.
[15:19]I don't know why, like, never, this is not obviously relatable.
[15:24]It wasn't in some sort of societal context, but just as like an individual moment, we
[15:29]were caught in this rain storm and the water pressure where we were staying, there was
[15:32]like no water, like the water had turned off and I was like, we're going to do our
[15:36]shampoo and condition, we're doing it out here and I went inside and I grabbed the
[15:40]shampoo and conditioner and we all stood in the rain and we all like, wash our hair and
[15:45]let it all come out and like we were in our clothes, like we were like dressed and drenched.
[15:50]And then it was one of like my favorite memories with the kids, even though at the time
[15:54]we were freezing and whatever, there's something about that, you know, let's get this done
[16:00]now.
[16:02]That is definitely a mom move.
[16:08]Yeah, you know, like my daughter has taught me so much.
[16:11]Like she, I think even how I even understand joy, I'm learning it from her because
[16:18]she doesn't have the stuff that I have, you know, and so how, how old is she now?
[16:25]He's 10.
[16:26]He's 10 and there's a, there's a, you know, a level of freedom, you know, that she
[16:32]has and confidence and sometimes lack of boundaries, but there is like a sense of self that
[16:41]I know that just because of various circumstances I didn't have.
[16:45]And so like I, you know, as much as I love on her and, you know, I'm challenged by her
[16:51]sometimes because I'm a mom, but also I study her because I'm like, okay, so this is
[16:58]like, there's a purity of it, right?
[17:00]Like there's an innocence to it that I think, you know, we can find a way to return to
[17:07]that inner child that child inside of us, then we would find the joy that maybe we can't
[17:12]access all the time, like, and so I've just been doing work around her and oh, you want
[17:17]to go to the park.
[17:18]Mommy, get on the swings.
[17:19]Oh, me?
[17:20]But me on the swings, yeah, yeah, and I get on the swing and I swing and this is like,
[17:24]this moment that floods back this, this, these emotions that just flood back, you know,
[17:30]like, oh, I really used to love the swing.
[17:33]Like, that was my thing.
[17:34]Like, how high can I go?
[17:35]Can I jump right?
[17:36]You know, that's the thing.
[17:38]And so yeah, she's teaching me all the time.
[17:41]I recently, uh, not, not that recently, maybe a couple of years ago when my little guys were
[17:45]on the swings.
[17:46]I have four kids and now my little guys are seven and eight, but anyway, I was like, pushing
[17:51]them back and forth and I had all of a sudden this, like, flashback, they went, I was a
[17:54]little girl.
[17:55]My mom used to do like one, two, three, we and we got one, two, three and then like,
[17:59]would run under my swing and forward.
[18:01]And I was like, oh my gosh, I can do one, two, three, we and I did it for the kids and
[18:06]they were like, you know, the joy on their faces and it's something like, you know, it
[18:11]does connect you to yourself and that part of us that is so optimistic and innocent and
[18:18]hopeful.
[18:19]And I feel like when all of that has been crushed, right, when we don't know if we can
[18:22]like walk safely on the street for COVID or racial issues or whatever, right, that tapping
[18:29]into that elemental human emotion that we all share, that capacity for optimism and joy
[18:37]despite whatever else is out there is like incredibly powerful.
[18:42]And I feel like you captured that just so perfectly in the spec.
[18:45]I mean, it is.
[18:46]It's so powerful.
[18:47]And guess what?
[18:48]It's healing.
[18:49]Like, you know, I've been doing a lot of reading around somatic, you know, experiencing
[18:54]and all of that and it is physiologically helpful to go there to, you know, I tell a story
[19:02]in the book about, you know, the first time I kind of recognized or was at least aware
[19:08]what joy felt like in my body was watching, this is us.
[19:12]And like, I'm like a writer, so I love good storytelling on character developments.
[19:17]I was just like, I was sitting in front of the screen like, my husband was like, weirdo,
[19:24]like, what's really going on.
[19:27]But because I had had these conversations with my therapist prior, you know, about what does
[19:31]it feel like?
[19:32]And you asked, like, do you even know what it feels like?
[19:34]And I was like, no, I don't.
[19:35]Like I know I've had joy, but like I don't know what it felt like.
[19:39]And so that experience of stopping and saying, oh, wait a minute, my hands, my arms, my,
[19:46]this is what joy, like I'm really happy.
[19:48]Like this is what this feels like.
[19:50]Then the next week, you know, when there's another unarmed black man shot, when the
[19:55]the next week, when COVID feels like is this huge never ending thing?
[20:00]Right. I'm able to go in my mind and my heart and my quiet moments to that moment of joy and it I feel it's not like the the red pill with blue pills, like that it's not like all encompassing healing thing, but it helps me like it helps me get over the hump of that fear and that anger and that rage, which are all valid emotions also, but it helps me manage it I guess a little better.
[20:26]Wouldn't it be funny if if there was like a whole thing about memoirists and the therapist behind them. Do you know, because I feel like there should be like behind every great memoir is a wonderful therapist.
[20:40]Or the other side or not or not. Yes, or not. Exactly. Exactly.
[20:48]Yeah, it should be like that it's almost like the best supporting actor nomination.
[20:55]My fear was like seriously black joy could not have been.
[21:00]I mean, I could have written it, but I don't think I could have stepped outside of myself enough to be able to tell those stories without complete breakdown.
[21:10]Right. Without my therapist, like that is a non negotiable for me on my schedule. It's necessary. Yeah. Yeah. Power therapy. Yeah.
[21:21]How much of a privilege that is. I know I should have said that. Yes. No, no, like I'm just saying like a lot of people like I say that, but I'm also super conscious of like I have health insurance and people don't.
[21:32]You know, I have, you know, access. Some people don't, you know, and so I always try to be super conscious of the fact that what I'm talking about is actually a privileged standpoint that I wish for everybody in this world to have without stigma.
[21:47]Yes. I agree. Thank you for saying that.
[21:51]Okay, Tracy. So like what's coming next in your life? What do you have going on? Well, this release of this book, you know, and all the things that come along with that. Very exciting. Yeah.
[22:02]Yeah, extremely exciting. I've been at this, you know, for 20 years. I just realized that in 2022 in 2002, I published this little tiny poetry collection on my own.
[22:16]Like 20 years and 18 books later, you know, and now with, you know, the major house and all of the things that come with that right like it just feels like a real moment for me.
[22:27]And so I'm just trying to, you know, sit in the gratitude of that and just hope that these stories and these essays really help folks that you really see something that they can take from it and like begin their own healing journeys, whatever that looks begin, you know, just paying attention.
[22:46]And if everybody just begins to start paying attention to the joy in their lives, even just a little bit. I'm good. Like I, that's that's the goal.
[22:56]And I have another book that's coming out in the fall. So then they came for mine is actually sort of me unpacking how I've been healing from racial violence and telling that story.
[23:09]And I'm just, you know, trying to sit and be still and take it all in and talk to wonderful people like you.
[23:21]I want to get a copy of your next book. That sounds so good. Amazing.
[23:27]Wow. Okay. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[23:30]I said this before somebody just asked me that and I said, I'm sorry to ask wrote questions.
[23:37]No, I do. I do. I always know.
[23:39]No, I think because I always say that because I think my answer called them off guard. I said that don't take advice.
[23:49]You know, I honestly like, I haven't been writing for like 20 years and independent and then mainstream and the whole thing, you know, I just realized that right your story right where you feel compelled to write.
[24:04]Definitely study the craft, you know, if you need to take a class or, you know, or whatever do so.
[24:11]But tell the story you feel led to tell and I think I would limit over the years. I've gotten so many advice. You write every day.
[24:20]Some people say yes, but you know, but I can't because I have kids and I have it right.
[24:25]Like just constant like opposing viewpoints. And so I think, you know, it's less about like advice and I would just tell a writer.
[24:36]Right. Yeah, no, I still maybe going to come up to me and it's like, Oh, you know, I have this book I'm thinking about writing.
[24:44]Right. Please just write because the biggest part of writing is rewriting right. So it's not like you're going to write something put it out next week like you, but you know, tell the story that you're called to tell and then utilize your resources around you to be able to make that story.
[25:00]The best it can be. I tell my students that I tell anyone who's interested in was less about, you know, me giving you my path, because my path might not be yours.
[25:13]It's more about like chart your own way, basically.
[25:18]I love that. It's very important. Yeah, I feel like until you experiment with a page or two, how are you going to know if it's going to get or not.
[25:27]Yeah, you got to play on the page a little bit.
[25:32]Well, it has been so wonderful getting to know you. And again, I just, I don't know. I just felt such affection toward do from the book and especially having gotten to know you. So anyway, thank you.
[25:44]Can I just say this thank you for the work that you're doing.
[25:47]I've been following you for a little bit and I'm so grateful. And I'm just so happy for you. Like all the things that are happening for you. Like I'm like, oh my gosh, like this, you know, you're opening doors for, you know, moms, women, you know, like it is awesome.
[26:05]And so I just wanted to like give you your flowers also.
[26:09]You know, a lot of times people don't do, you do these podcasts. Like I've done the on the interview side and like people, you know, don't know the amount of work it takes to be able to do what you do. So I'm just thank you.
[26:20]Oh, thank you. I made my day. Thank you.
[26:24]All right. Thanks, Tracy.
[26:26]Thank you. Bye bye.
[26:29]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books.
[26:33]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at moms don't have time to read books.
[26:38]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:45]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan, back texture sound for the sound editing.
[26:49]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.