Mori Taheripour, BRING YOURSELF: How to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly
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[0:41]Mori, to Harry Poor, is the author of Bring Yourself Had a Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly.
[0:47]She is a globally recognized executive, highly sought after speaker and negotiation expert,
[0:52]who has worked with some of the most iconic sports leagues and Fortune 100 corporations over the past 20 years.
[0:57]She teaches negotiation and dispute resolution at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania,
[1:02]where she is an eight-time recipient of awards for excellence in teaching.
[1:06]Top business publications and media outlets, including ESPN, Forbes, Inc., and NPR, have featured her work.
[1:12]She's also a contributor to sports discussions on Wharton Business Daily on SiriusXM.
[1:17]Her current and past clients include Goldman Sachs Foundation, Major League Baseball, National Basketball Players Association,
[1:24]National Football League, the Timberland Company, UPS, Wasserman Wells Fargo, and the White House Fellows Program.
[1:31]Mori is a member of the Board of Directors for USA Track and Field, a member of the Board of Trustees,
[1:36]of the Women's Sports Foundation, a global sport fellow with the Global Sport Institute at Arizona State University,
[1:42]and an advisory board member of the Sports Leadership and Administration undergraduate degree program at UMass Boston.
[1:48]As I'm reading her bio, I'm realizing we probably should have talked more about sports,
[1:51]which we didn't talk about really at all.
[1:53]But I guess next time.
[1:54]Anyway, Mori earned her BA from Barnard College of Columbia University, her MBA from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania,
[2:01]and a diversity and inclusion certificate from Cornell University.
[2:04]Welcome, Mori.
[2:05]Thank you so much for coming on Moms.
[2:07]Don't have time to read books.
[2:08]To discuss, bring yourself how to harness the power of connection to negotiate fearlessly.
[2:14]Thank you so much for having me.
[2:15]I'm really excited about this conversation.
[2:17]Oh, when I started reading your book, I was like having PTSD flashbacks to my business school negotiation class myself,
[2:25]which I was probably the girl that you referenced to capitulated way too easily to the more aggressive man in the negotiation.
[2:32]But why don't you tell listeners in general what your book is about and what made you decide to write it?
[2:39]So, yeah, it is like the antithesis to most negotiations books, I think.
[2:44]I've been teaching negotiations for a little over 17 years now, almost 18 years at the Wharton School.
[2:50]And I never would have imagined myself writing a book.
[2:53]Actually, I never would have imagined teaching.
[2:55]So those are two things that I now have done that I never would have thought I would ever do.
[3:00]But that's a whole different story.
[3:02]But after teaching this class for quite some time, it's really interesting that you started the conversation this way,
[3:06]because I find that this is one of those subjects where either A, people take it because they think they're horrible at it.
[3:13]And this is just a practical skill they're going to need, or B, they have like PTSD, right?
[3:18]They have this fear of it that they are like, this is, I'm just going to throw myself into it and get over it, right?
[3:24]And maybe then there's the seek category.
[3:26]People will think that that's greatest negotiator.
[3:28]So this is going to be exactly what I want to do.
[3:32]And so after teaching it for quite some time and realizing the mindful loss of fear around it is so different that this is really something that we do all the time that this is for so to learn skill.
[3:42]Nobody's born, you know, great negotiator.
[3:45]I mean, something's become natural into some folks, but it's truly a learned skill.
[3:49]And more importantly, it's something we do all the time.
[3:52]And we just don't even think that that's what we're doing.
[3:54]But it's literally every conversation you have with yourself, every decision you make has been kids, dogs, you know,
[4:01]merging onto traffic on the highway.
[4:03]I mean, these are all literally negotiations that we have every day.
[4:07]But it's that people associated with something that's transactional or has been really difficult or they've been taken advantage of or there's like all this fear.
[4:17]So I thought, you know, if people just looked at themselves and all those different aspects of the lights that they actually negotiate really well, but don't even give themselves credit for that being in negotiations, these are transferable skills.
[4:29]My book was really meant to be accessible.
[4:32]It was supposed to take sort of fear away from negotiations and make it less about a transaction that could go wrong, but more about everyday conversations that we have.
[4:41]That it's really a way for us to speak our voice, to speak our mind, to better get to know ourselves.
[4:48]So a big part of this book is a journey.
[4:50]And it actually reads like an autobiography. It's my story and the story of a lot of my students, but it's to empower my students and my readers and to say really take a look at yourself.
[5:01]It's not the world that makes you a bad negotiator.
[5:03]It's not that you don't have the skills for it.
[5:05]It's that you sort of get in your own way.
[5:07]And if you can clear up some of those cob labs and deal with some of those scars, then, you know, everybody can be a great negotiator.
[5:14]And that was really the premise of it is just to tell a story and make it accessible and hopefully empower people.
[5:21]Well, I'm interested in discussing both some negotiation tips and also your story.
[5:27]So on the negotiation side, you referenced quite often the importance of really being true to yourself and using your emotional intelligence to inform your negotiation tactics and, you know, the sort of authenticity bringing a piece of yourself to whatever the discussion is.
[5:42]And then also, you know, sometimes overcoming parts of your personality, like the pleasing people pleasing tendency that so many of us have or maybe so many people I know or maybe just make whatever.
[5:54]Anyway, I was curious how exactly do we take our personalities and the strengths of those when the person we're negotiating with like doesn't want to listen to that.
[6:05]Like, I can be as empathetic and well reasoned, but there are some people who they don't respond well to that.
[6:13]So how do you handle something like that?
[6:15]So I kind of talk about negotiations as this sort of multi step process and for stage processing.
[6:22]And the first one is really what we all know to be important by preparation.
[6:26]Everybody knows negotiations, you have to be well prepared know your facts know what you want.
[6:31]And then the second sort of stage of that is when we call information exchange.
[6:35]And that's when you sort of first get to know somebody or you first sit down with them if you already know them or this is where you sort of express your intentionality for what it is that you're about to discuss or that in exchange that's about to take place, but it's really that kind of getting to know you face.
[6:50]And so we build reports where we build connections with people.
[6:53]And people either don't really know that the stage really exists or they they kind of don't spend enough time there and sort of breeze through it and go right to what that third stage is where everybody sort of associates with negotiations, which in my mind is actually sort of the least important, but that's actually the bargaining or the negotiation space where it's the more transactional conversation.
[7:14]And that second stage is just whether you make a deal or you don't make a deal.
[7:17]And that second stage information exchange is probably the reason I love teaching the subject and probably the reason why I love negotiations because that's where you sort of abuse humanity into this process.
[7:33]And the longer you can hold the conversation there in the dialogue there, then the easier that third phase is going to be that's the most difficult, which is usually about money or it's transactional or all the hard stuff.
[7:45]But that second phase where you first let's say meet somebody it's where you want to make sure that this person understands that they're not just there meant to be sort of the this isn't the road to an outcome that you want this is really a journey that you want to sort of stay in and enjoy.
[8:04]And it's curiosity and it's wanting to know somebody not for the sake of doing a deal with them, but just for the sake of getting to know them.
[8:13]And I really find that this is that place where you have to be authentic because people know when you're not if you really want to show that you're interested in somebody.
[8:24]You can ask them a question and then look at your phone to see if somebody's text you right so it's where we have to it with all our all our authenticity show up and actually be interested and curious about people.
[8:38]about whoever this individual is whether their father or mother you know their their interests, you know, the beauty of zoom these days is that we see so much in the background with people that we normally wouldn't see because a lot of these conversations were in board rooms or conference rooms or offices.
[8:54]Now it's personal now you have all of this information with which to create a conversation and who's not interested right it's such a privilege to be in somebody's living room and.
[9:04]bedroom or or family room and here they are sort of giving you pieces themselves and you don't pay attention right so it's like if you actually.
[9:13]dedicated yourself to enjoying this journey of getting to know somebody as opposed to thinking this is the means to that end.
[9:22]then I think it changes everything and your question was then what about the other person what if they don't want to do this I find that most people if not all people like to be seen.
[9:34]They like to feel important they want to feel like they're somebody more than just their job or their title or their position that they're a real human being and if we can see somebody if we can we can focus on them again.
[9:49]that's right this is got to be authentic that I feel like people open up and the minute they open up and the minute you're sort of engaged in this conversation building before connecting with somebody then by the time you get.
[10:00]head to that third stage, which is usually the most painful,
[10:03]that everything's sort of changed.
[10:04]You've connected with somebody.
[10:06]You've built a tide with somebody that goes well beyond
[10:10]just the deal that you're about to make.
[10:12]People become more empathetic.
[10:13]People become more interested in maybe your needs
[10:18]and their needs, your intentions are better
[10:22]and more, I would say less pinpointed
[10:26]on just the deal that you're making,
[10:28]but really about sort of humanity
[10:29]about relationships.
[10:30]So I think that's the secret is like embrace this moment
[10:34]of getting to know someone.
[10:35]And once you do that, then I think everything changes.
[10:38]Even the most difficult hard nose negotiators
[10:41]are human beings at the end of the day.
[10:43]And does that advice change
[10:44]if you're negotiating with your child?
[10:46]No.
[10:47]Actually, no, their powers go well beyond that
[10:51]to say that they are probably the best negotiators.
[10:55]But that's because they do that so well sort of naturally.
[10:58]They're naturally curious.
[11:00]They're sort of come in with little sort of scars
[11:04]and bad experiences.
[11:05]So they're almost far more socialist biases, right?
[11:08]They come in with a clean slate.
[11:10]And that clean slate is that of curiosity.
[11:13]And that's what makes them so brilliant, right?
[11:14]Because you can't help it.
[11:15]It's like they all the questions,
[11:18]their emotional intelligence,
[11:19]they know when a mom is in a bad mood
[11:21]so they're gonna ask dad because they pay attention, right?
[11:24]And so that's why they're so good.
[11:26]It's like, as you get older,
[11:28]it's a little bit of that matter.
[11:31]Yes, I feel like I'm constantly getting
[11:33]a run for my money.
[11:34]That's for sure.
[11:36]You mentioned in the book your background
[11:39]and having come over from Iran
[11:41]when you're about eight years old
[11:42]and then you went into later in the book.
[11:45]You said something like,
[11:46]you're worried you're still a disappointment
[11:48]to your parents that you didn't become a doctor.
[11:51]And I'm thinking to myself,
[11:52]oh my gosh, she's a warden professor,
[11:54]she's written this book, all this career success
[11:56]and you're still sort of doubting yourself.
[11:59]Tell me a little bit about that.
[12:01]Hello, I'm pastor syndrome, right?
[12:03]It was, yeah, it was hard to talk about it in the book.
[12:08]This is a, I'm a really private person.
[12:09]This was a really self revealing experience for me.
[12:13]Quite cathartic actually because a lot of these things,
[12:15]I don't much talk to people about nor really
[12:18]nor really confront it myself, but I do.
[12:21]I remember very clearly my graduation day at warden.
[12:25]And I was on stage, I was actually getting the speech,
[12:29]the commencement speech and kind of graduating with honors.
[12:33]Like all these accomplishments, right?
[12:35]You would think I would be at the sort of apex
[12:39]of my sort of career at that point.
[12:41]And as I looked out and I saw my parents sitting in the
[12:44]sort of distance and very quickly this feeling of
[12:49]at that there's still disappointed.
[12:50]It just came over me and I mean, and I can't.
[12:55]It's like, so I always talk about a pastor syndrome being
[12:57]that, that guest that you want to leave and they don't leave
[13:00]no matter what you do, like they just kind of hang around.
[13:03]And it gets you at times where you least expect it.
[13:05]But what that tells me is that, you know,
[13:08]it's the stories we tell ourselves.
[13:11]And the language that has become so routine for me
[13:16]that I have to do everything in my power,
[13:18]even at the point where I appear to be so, you know,
[13:21]I've achieved some level of success, something to be proud of.
[13:25]It's still that little girl in the back of my mind that's saying,
[13:29]yeah, but they really left for you.
[13:31]They really wanted you to be a doctor.
[13:33]And here you are here.
[13:34]This is selfish.
[13:35]This is something to improve self.
[13:36]You're still not that what they wanted you to be.
[13:39]And that's why it's so hard.
[13:41]It's so hard that breaking that soft talk and confronting it
[13:46]and really learning how to retell the story.
[13:49]And in that moment, it had to be really quick.
[13:50]Cause I was like, this is the last moment you want to feel sorry
[13:53]for yourself or feel like you're a disappointment, right?
[13:55]But it gets you at the most unexpected time.
[13:58]So you have to just be really good at saying no,
[14:00]not right now, guest, nope, get when I close the door.
[14:04]You're not allowed in right now, right?
[14:05]And just kind of that self work, which is just hard.
[14:10]Yeah, it's hard.
[14:11]Have you discussed this with your parents?
[14:14]I have, unfortunately, they're both in sort of early stage
[14:18]to mention else, so sorry, you know,
[14:20]that's a hard end of itself.
[14:22]But I think it was work for me to do.
[14:25]I don't know if somebody even tells you something different
[14:29]if it matters because that's sort of external
[14:31]and it's the internal stuff that you have to really change.
[14:34]Yeah, absolutely right.
[14:35]Well, this is great.
[14:37]Getting a little therapy.
[14:38]This is helpful for me.
[14:39]Thank you very much.
[14:41]And you also wrote about your MS diagnosis
[14:45]and what you do to take care of your health and fitness
[14:48]and how you sort of never been fitter
[14:50]and that in turn has lessened the resurgence.
[14:54]It's not the right word, but the flares of when it comes back
[14:57]and that you wrote that people would be shocked to even
[15:00]learn about it because you never talk about it.
[15:02]So why keep it so private?
[15:04]And then how do you feel now?
[15:07]Are you still following like the same tactics?
[15:10]Are they still working?
[15:11]Like I found myself very concerned
[15:13]like you're reading the book and like how is she now?
[15:16]Yeah, so I was diagnosed in 2010.
[15:18]I have not yet had a relapse.
[15:20]Nice.
[15:21]And I kept it private because I think I never wanted people
[15:25]to see me first as somebody who had a MS
[15:29]but really see me for who I was.
[15:32]And really I didn't want the judgment.
[15:34]I didn't want people again to tell a story.
[15:36]That was different than what I was telling myself.
[15:39]Outside of that first part where I got diagnosed
[15:42]by a doctor who clearly was not the right doctor for me
[15:45]and then I moved on to find the doctor that I'm with now.
[15:48]I never, I've never felt sorry for myself
[15:51]and I've never felt, I seriously in a lot of ways
[15:55]it was a blessing.
[15:56]And I know people say that but I really sort of mean this
[15:59]and that before all of this I used to think
[16:02]that I was selfish as my family needed me or something
[16:05]and I really wanted to have a general workout
[16:07]or whatever space I carved out for myself.
[16:10]Now I've learned that actually that's not selfish at all
[16:14]but it's really in some ways it's a rival, it's self-love.
[16:18]It's all those things that we so need
[16:20]just to replenish ourselves.
[16:22]And the book was again really hard in that way
[16:25]because it wasn't something I talked about.
[16:27]I'm like closest family didn't know that best, right?
[16:29]Just outside of my sort of sister brother,
[16:32]maybe nephews and parents nobody really knew
[16:35]I never talked about it.
[16:36]And I decided to just come right out
[16:39]for that there for the world.
[16:41]But I was ready because I said first of all,
[16:44]this might help people who just get the diagnosis
[16:47]and do what I did, which is in my mind
[16:49]I had this associated with them as being in a wheelchair
[16:53]having to be so dependent on people.
[16:56]And I'm everything but and I thought
[16:58]more this is that opportunity to tell those people
[17:00]that it doesn't have to be that way.
[17:02]And there's so much hope and there's so much progress.
[17:05]There's so much of medicine that we've seen
[17:08]that really help those of us with them as,
[17:11]but you know, the funniest thing is that
[17:12]I don't even think there are most days
[17:15]I don't even remember.
[17:17]And I think it's because I feel so good.
[17:19]I my non-negotiables are my workouts.
[17:22]Like I will not forego my goodness
[17:25]or take that time for myself,
[17:27]but that I sort of carve out.
[17:29]And this has given me the courage to do that
[17:31]without punishing myself for it.
[17:34]And it's, I'm so glad I did it.
[17:36]I'm so glad I did it.
[17:37]And I think that I hope it's helped people
[17:40]because that's, it's changing my mindset really helped me
[17:43]and I think it was actually everything.
[17:45]Wow.
[17:46]What is your workout of choice out of curiosity?
[17:49]You know, I really love boxing to be honest with you.
[17:52]It's like you just feel really powerful.
[17:54]You know, if you're really angry,
[17:56]you can sort of imagine that person
[17:57]that you're sort of, you know,
[18:00]it gets out the anger, but it's fine.
[18:02]It's athletic, but you know, I love everything.
[18:04]I'm one of those people that loves pushups.
[18:05]I mean, you know, who does that?
[18:07]But I like lifting and all of it.
[18:09]I think it's the endorphins.
[18:11]And I was never at buttocks.
[18:13]So feeling like I'm that and I just turned 50.
[18:15]So feeling that way at the age of 50 feels really good.
[18:18]So I think anything you can give me
[18:21]that makes me feel actually really good about being in my body.
[18:25]I really love, but I do love boxing.
[18:27]I used to love so cycle for the same reason
[18:29]you would go in their dark room music.
[18:31]I just forgot, I forgot about everything outside
[18:33]at that place.
[18:34]So yeah, I love all things workout.
[18:37]That's great.
[18:38]Yeah, I feel like I've been a part of every workout trend
[18:41]in history.
[18:42]I'm 45, but I feel like I started with, you know,
[18:47]aerobics with my mom, you know,
[18:49]I've done everything from step to slide to,
[18:52]you know, just whatever came next, you know, so.
[18:55]All of it, yeah, spinning.
[18:57]Yeah, what do you like?
[18:58]Just curious.
[18:59]I basically did barely worked out last year.
[19:01]So I'm like trying to get back to where I was,
[19:03]but my current thing is a mix of like cardio hit classes
[19:07]and strength training.
[19:09]So I'm hoping that works better.
[19:11]Yeah, I love that, but you just said,
[19:13]because I just realized like, oh, we don't have to actually
[19:15]do it for that long.
[19:16]Like you can just, it could be quick and it's efficient.
[19:19]So.
[19:19]Yeah, that's the advice that I had.
[19:22]Sticking with the like 20, 30 minute,
[19:23]like yesterday was 20 minutes, but I was drenched in sweat.
[19:27]I like couldn't even do my next podcast.
[19:28]I was so sweaty.
[19:29]I was like, I have to be on my knees.
[19:31]So anyway, I'm like, that must have done something good better
[19:33]than just sitting and doing another podcast.
[19:35]Just that little bit of time.
[19:36]Yeah.
[19:37]So what for you personally has been one of your toughest
[19:41]negotiations?
[19:42]Probably all the ones I've done with myself.
[19:45]I would say, and I talked about this in the book.
[19:46]I was, you know, I started my first company,
[19:50]one in 1997, I was quite young and partnered with somebody
[19:54]that was much older than me.
[19:55]And I sort of, you know, throughout that process,
[19:58]sort of gave away all my power because that's like cool.
[20:00]I'm so young, what do I know about this stuff?
[20:02]Right?
[20:03]It's NBA, he's very smart.
[20:04]And throughout the course of those 10 years,
[20:08]I just continued to fall back to his position
[20:12]and his interests.
[20:14]And when I decided finally, because in my mind,
[20:18]I couldn't feel the whole parents thing.
[20:21]And they knew you were going to feel you can't do that, right?
[20:25]So that was never an option.
[20:26]But at the time where I finally realized
[20:29]that I just wasn't happy anymore.
[20:31]I didn't feel like entrepreneurship is hard enough
[20:35]and to do it and be miserable.
[20:36]I was like, this is ridiculous.
[20:38]And when I realized that part of the reason
[20:41]I wasn't happy anymore is because I didn't even know why it was.
[20:43]I wasn't doing anything because I wanted to do it.
[20:46]It was sort of this like, you know,
[20:48]robotic almost.
[20:49]And when I ended that relationship,
[20:52]it was not an overnight thing.
[20:53]It took a lot of, you know, negotiations with myself.
[20:56]I, you know, if you do it,
[20:58]are you willing to take on this debt?
[21:00]What will that do to your life?
[21:01]If you do it, you may have grown this relationship,
[21:04]you may never know this person again.
[21:05]Yeah, that would be the end of that.
[21:06]Are you willing to do that?
[21:08]What will your family think?
[21:09]Like all of those, you know, sort of smaller conversations
[21:13]that put together or this huge negotiations with myself
[21:19]may have been the most difficult
[21:20]because it kind of touched on so many different things,
[21:23]my own values, whether I wanted to honor my own happiness,
[21:26]how important that was, you know, financial things.
[21:29]Parents, it was hard and it was the best
[21:33]probably outcome ever.
[21:35]And maybe I didn't know it at the time,
[21:36]but it's certainly it's been one I've learned a lot from.
[21:40]And not because I was in battered and bruised,
[21:42]there are many, many scars to show for it.
[21:45]But I've learned so much and at the end of the day,
[21:48]I realized that it's because I took my power back
[21:51]and whatever mistakes were gonna be associated with that,
[21:54]they were my own to make.
[21:55]And I think that changed a lot of ways the course of my life
[21:59]and the way I sort of approach negotiations actually in general.
[22:03]Wow.
[22:04]And in terms of your teaching and like your day to day life,
[22:08]and then I know where I'ma stand,
[22:09]but have there been students that have really taught you
[22:12]a lot about yourself or like things you've learned
[22:15]from your students that maybe you hadn't expected
[22:17]or like students who have stuck out for you
[22:19]or just some sort of relationship
[22:21]that's come out of your teaching career.
[22:25]So the first thing is that being in a classroom
[22:28]that love so much, but it's the only place
[22:32]where my most authentic self first of all,
[22:36]but also where I forget everything that exists
[22:39]outside that classroom.
[22:40]So it's like that you are just so present.
[22:43]And that's amazing.
[22:44]It's also really exhausting because you come out here
[22:47]like emotionally drained, but for those three hours,
[22:49]this is the only world that's where it exists for you.
[22:52]And the depth of connection as a result of that
[22:56]has taught me how important it is
[22:57]just to be present in your life.
[22:59]And the way you really connect with people,
[23:02]we cry in class, we're intimate in class,
[23:04]we're vulnerable in class.
[23:06]And it's hard to believe, right?
[23:08]Because it's sometimes the very first class
[23:11]of a semester.
[23:12]And part of that has taught me, when again,
[23:16]you see people and when you honor them
[23:18]and when you honor that moment that just being fully present
[23:20]in your life, how magical that is.
[23:24]But what my students have taught me,
[23:26]and particularly, I think my undergrads
[23:28]is that we have a lot of complaints
[23:30]about sort of this younger generation,
[23:31]but they're so courageous.
[23:33]And they just show up and they are unapologetic.
[23:38]And they are everything that I wish I had been at their age.
[23:42]And I can work with that, right?
[23:43]I mean, there are still things I teach some,
[23:44]like, you know, when you email a professor,
[23:46]you probably shouldn't say, hey, but you know,
[23:48]like those things, that's just decorum,
[23:51]but everything else is like they're just,
[23:53]they're souls appear so free, right?
[23:55]And they're so courageous.
[23:57]And so I love that, I envy them in a lot of ways.
[24:01]And then my job is to sort of help them harness that
[24:04]and really sort of help them sort of guide it
[24:06]in this sort of the right direction
[24:08]and with the right energy.
[24:09]And they still have their self doubts
[24:10]and all the rest of it, but they're courage
[24:13]in the way they show up in life.
[24:14]My entrepreneurs, on the other hand,
[24:16]are equally courageous.
[24:17]And, you know, through a different then,
[24:20]they've had this dream, they've had these goals
[24:22]and that's what they do and they're resilient
[24:25]and they're, they lean all the way in
[24:27]and they just do it.
[24:29]And so I have a privilege of teaching so many different people
[24:34]from so many different walks of life,
[24:35]from executives to students.
[24:37]And I have to say I learned something from all of them
[24:40]because I am so impressed.
[24:41]And I think they teach me far more than I ever teach them.
[24:45]And it comes just from being able to just shut everything
[24:48]else off and just be there.
[24:50]And I, it's probably because I'm so in love with it,
[24:52]but that's, it's great.
[24:54]I get a lot more back, I think, from them.
[24:57]And then, good enough.
[24:58]This is a big self or being a professor.
[25:03]That sounds amazing the way you describe it.
[25:04]So, it really is, it really, and I never ever,
[25:07]I mean, I was that person who was afraid
[25:09]to stand in front of classroom or read off about,
[25:11]and we had phone books back then,
[25:12]but phone books are a book, right?
[25:14]But now it doesn't matter 3,000 people are in front of me.
[25:17]It's like, when you really love something,
[25:20]and you feel like you have something to offer,
[25:22]it changes everything.
[25:23]And it's, yeah, it's, it's amazing.
[25:27]Wow.
[25:29]Well, thank you so much.
[25:30]Laurie, thanks for talking about your book.
[25:32]Bring yourself.
[25:33]How can everybody find you?
[25:35]You want Instagram?
[25:37]I'm on Instagram, I'm to Harry for my website,
[25:40]which is more to Harry for, I'm on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn.
[25:44]There's, it'll be hard for people not to find me
[25:46]as long as they can spell my last thing that can get to me.
[25:49]But yeah, on all those things,
[25:51]we just launched a newsletter.
[25:53]All they have to do is go to my website
[25:54]and so sign up for it.
[25:56]But yeah, I'm on Instagram, I'm on, I'll be above.
[25:58]Amazing.
[25:59]Well, thank you so much.
[26:00]This has been really fun.
[26:01]Thank you, Zippy.
[26:02]Thanks for having me.
[26:03]This was great.
[26:04]Okay, all right, take care.
[26:05]Okay, bye bye.
[26:08]Thanks for listening to this episode
[26:09]of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:11]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram
[26:13]at Zippy Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[26:16]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowens.com
[26:19]and sign up for my virtual book club
[26:21]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[26:23]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[26:26]for the Sound Editing.
[26:27]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[26:29]for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music.