Heather Morris, THREE SISTERS: A Novel
[0:01]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast Moms don't have time to read books
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[0:40]Heather Morris is the author of three sisters, a novel
[0:43]Heather is a native of New Zealand and now resident in Australia
[0:47]For several years while working in a large public hospital in Melbourne
[0:50]She studied and wrote screenplays one of which was optioned by an Academy of Boarding screenwriter in the US
[0:56]In 2003 Heather was introduced to an elderly gentleman who quote might just have a story worth telling the day
[1:02]She met Lao Sokolov changed both their lives
[1:05]Actually, I think it's lollie their friendship grew and lollie embarked on a journey of self-scrutiny
[1:10]Intressing the innermost details of his life during the Holocaust to her
[1:13]Heather originally wrote lollie story as a screenplay which ranked high in international competitions
[1:19]Before reshaping it into her debut novel the tattooist of Auschwitz now an international bestseller
[1:24]She's also the author of the best-selling
[1:27]Chilka's journey and newly published three sisters
[1:30]Welcome, Heather. Thank you so much for coming on mom's don't have time to read books to discuss three sisters
[1:36]We're very welcome. Thank you for the invite and dumb. It's I'm happy to be talking to you actually from California
[1:42]Day before yesterday. I arrived. Oh, well enjoy. It's probably a lot warmer than it is New York right now
[1:49]So you obviously wrote the tattooist of Auschwitz, which we came
[1:55]This giant number one New York Times bestseller out in the world then silka's journey
[1:59]I pronounce that right silka's journey
[2:01]Yes, it's still this journey
[2:02]And now this is the third sort of in the trilogy of those college three sisters and I watched the video on your website of oh my gosh
[2:10]No, I'm blanking underneath. Yes, Olivia. I watched Olivia's video and couldn't believe it
[2:15]So why don't you tell the story of how you discovered this story and how it led you to write this book?
[2:21]Well, that the book found that the story found me
[2:25]It's the way it works with me these days stories come to me
[2:30]I was in South Africa and I wasn't a book tour for silka's journey there
[2:34]And I've read really hours of the morning. I got my hotel room and written email
[2:39]Now email was from Olivia's son one of the three sisters OD and
[2:44]He'd written to me saying that he'd picked up a copy of the tattooist of Auschwitz and Toronto
[2:49]Where he lives and taken it to Israel
[2:52]But to visit his mom now the thing you need to know is that the cover of the tattooist of Auschwitz in
[2:58]Australia and in Canada is different to what it is in the United States
[3:03]It's just a black background with two arms with tattooed numbers on them
[3:08]He left that on his mother's coffee table and she bought past
[3:13]Grant down and said to him that must be a bad lady in Gita
[3:17]And when he said how could you possibly know that?
[3:20]She said it's simple look at the number on the arm now look at the number on my arm
[3:24]There's three a part. I know that
[3:27]Your auntie's sibis was to a part from Gita's we went to school with Gita. We're on the train going to Auschwitz with Gita
[3:34]We shared block 21 with Gita
[3:37]Well, when you read that no matter what the time of the movie hours of the morning it is and you know
[3:42]How matter how many wines you've had because you're staying in the wine region of South Africa?
[3:46]There's no sleeping. It was in a matter of I think only about four or five days
[3:50]I flew directly from Johannesburg to Tel Aviv
[3:54]and into the apartment and the arms of Livy and her family and magna and her family and sibis family
[4:01]I'm now part of the family. Livy's even asked if she could adopt me
[4:06]I had to say no
[4:08]Wow, that's
[4:10]Amazing. Yeah, when she told it in the video
[4:12]She said, yeah, my son just said it and of course I knew her yeah
[4:16]She's from my town ruined to school together. It was crazy just to see it
[4:19]I mean, I can only imagine the goosebumps you felt at that. Oh, yeah, absolutely
[4:24]Well, just not what you should expect to hear and this is I think this thing about the holocaust in terms of the
[4:31]The survivors how far and wide they they did flee and
[4:36]That they can then connect through this one book that I wrote in Melbourne Australia
[4:41]When Nali Sokolov gave me his story. It's like the world becomes smaller and smaller
[4:47]How did you start that tattooist of Auschwitz? Like how did you find his story? Like how did this whole thing began?
[4:54]Well, once again crazy
[4:56]I had a cup of coffee with a friend
[4:58]I hadn't seen for many months because I lived out in Melbourne a bit and she just casually said to me
[5:04]I have a friend his mother's just died. His father has asked him to find somebody he can tell a story too
[5:11]That person can't be Jewish. You're not Jewish. Do you want to meet him?
[5:16]When I asked her what's her story? She said she didn't know
[5:19]So I won't ever mind. I'd love to meet him and a week later. I knocked on Nali Sokolov's storm 87 years of age
[5:26]grieving the loss of his wife Gita
[5:30]and began the three-year friendship
[5:32]That resulted in his story. Why couldn't you be Jewish? Why couldn't there other be Jewish?
[5:38]I was very clear on that. Lali was
[5:40]To whom it could not be a Jewish person alive
[5:43]Who was not affected by the Holocaust?
[5:46]Have their own back story their own family's story
[5:49]And he wanted somebody and I was the perfect bunny in some ways
[5:54]As I had to admit to him how my small town you see on education
[5:59]I taught with so little about the Holocaust. I didn't even know a Jewish person growing up
[6:05]Really? Yeah, well in your small little rural town in New Zealand
[6:09]Yeah, very protected from the rest of the world and what was going on and had gone on on it
[6:15]Wow, I'm Jewish. I live in New York City and
[6:19]There are many many Jewish people here
[6:21]It's not a small rural town and part of my sort of Jewish education is was once a week
[6:27]Hebrew school where we would talk about the Holocaust every time and as a child
[6:30]I was like, can we talk about something else? You know, I got it. Like I already got it. What are we doing this year? Same thing again
[6:37]That that didn't happen for me growing up and even as a young adult and I moved from New Zealand to Australia
[6:43]And I matched in of course several Jewish people I was working with some
[6:47]But I still really didn't get a grasp on the significance of the Holocaust. I knew the word
[6:52]I could ain't thanks diary
[6:54]But didn't meet somebody living history
[6:57]Lully was
[6:59]Livy and Magda who I've spent now time with and been
[7:02]Luckily to be able to get in and out of Israel prior to the pandemic and of course
[7:06]It's healing me away right now
[7:08]Because Livy and Magda were both thin and I they are 96 and 98
[7:13]And I'm desperate to get back to them. Oh my goodness
[7:16]So and by the way, I didn't mean to sound flippant about learning about the Holocaust obviously
[7:20]I know, you know, very moving and I act I'm super
[7:24]Interested. I feel like as I've gotten older actually I am even more interested in reading accounts of survival all these little stories because
[7:32]Each family is a miracle every survival story is miraculous in some way
[7:37]It's it's it's improbable and miraculous and so I find myself
[7:42]sort of clinging to those as inspiration for getting through really anything like like your book
[7:47]So tell me more about these three sisters and their unique story
[7:52]The fact that three sisters survived
[7:55]The entire sibling of one family survived
[7:59]I'm told by the
[8:01]Historians and academics is an absolute miracle
[8:04]I mean lully and Gita lost their family
[8:08]So but for three of them to have survived they were just young girls
[8:12]You know, Livy was just 15
[8:15]When she was taken there along with sippy her eldest sister. She was 19 and sippy only went on that train from run off
[8:24]To Auschwitz because she couldn't let her baby sister go alone
[8:28]So the story folks is this told in the initial stages in two different
[8:33]Narratives of two of the sisters together
[8:36]Travelling and their existence for two and a half years in Auschwitz back in our
[8:42]While Magda the middle sister is back in Slovakia with her mother and grandfather
[8:48]And her survival, you know in some ways getting it out of Magda was more difficult than it was to get Livy's story
[8:57]Because you'll imagine that this woman even at 98
[9:01]Still carries the guilt of having slept and her own bed for two and a half years
[9:08]While her sisters were surviving in Auschwitz
[9:12]And she knows how bad it was folks because that's where she ended up
[9:16]So it's not like she couldn't picture or in any way have to try and
[9:21]Imagine what it was like from their telling. She ended up there two and a half years later
[9:26]And then together
[9:29]They survived a death march
[9:31]The death march and you only get a snippet of it
[9:34]There's way much more to their death march survival which is going to be coming out shortly
[9:39]And there's coming out because after 77 years
[9:44]Magda's family have found a diary
[9:48]A diary that Magda wrote in real time on that death march
[9:52]And the back of the book there's one little extract of it
[9:57]The only found that diary is the book was about
[10:00]to go to the printers. Oh my gosh. So we now have this incredible document,
[10:05]some 77, 78 pages, handwritten, beautiful Slovakian handwriting of Magda,
[10:11]the date, the time, the police as they were running on this death march,
[10:17]Germans, Russians, who's threatening them this day. So to survive that again,
[10:24]America was so many didn't. And it was days or weeks. It was months. I know exactly because of
[10:34]that diary, the date that they ran from the Nazis. It was the 30th of April. They were taken on
[10:41]that death march on the 18th of January. Well, so it was significant. But then to get back to
[10:49]Slovakia and once again, to be not accepted, to be a second-class citizen,
[10:56]while it was Livy, the baby, the youngest, who made a decision she would not live like that.
[11:02]You know, the only good thing that happened to the sisters when they went back to Slovakia,
[11:08]Sibi, met a man, fell in love, and had a baby boy. The one of the six children
[11:15]born to the sisters, born in Slovakia, carried. So Livy said, no, we're going and persuaded Magda
[11:23]to go with her and train in the forests and Czech Republic. And was Czechoslovakia then.
[11:29]I've got to try to remember the timelines when these countries change from Czechoslovakia to
[11:34]Czech Republic, so Slovakia. But it then be smuggled through the length of Slovakia, which,
[11:41]you know, I think that he's not a very big country. You've got a picture. It's communist rule.
[11:46]You can't move out of your town. And so for this group of young people to be smuggled through
[11:51]that country and to Romania, again, communist controlled, smuggled through there and to get to the
[11:59]black sea and step foot on a boat and step off that boat on the 28th of February 1949
[12:07]in high foot in Israel. And it's a pivotal moment in time when the nation's state of Israel
[12:15]has been created. So what I'm delighted about and telling this story is now sharing with readers
[12:22]what it was like for young people to be in that country and that state as it was being created
[12:29]and developed. Not through the eyes of the politicians, the United Nations and the other folks who
[12:35]they say they created the state. And I won't make comment on the right and the wrong
[12:41]of one state being created at the expense of another. But the girl survival there is again
[12:48]simple but extraordinary. That Nivi worked for the first president of the state of Israel
[12:58]homewisement and the friend at home and the first lady. And if you've seen in the back,
[13:04]the photos, the wedding photo of Livia and Ziggy, and that third person in that photo is
[13:10]Vera Wazeman, the first first lady of Israel, such was their friendship. So the story,
[13:17]which is once again there's way much more to it too of the maid and the president
[13:22]phenomenal how every dignitary leader of other countries heads of state that came to Israel to
[13:30]pay homage to Tawiseman and to meet him, he insisted they had to meet Nivi and say to them she is the
[13:39]reason we have created the state. She has more right to walk on the soil than I do. She and her
[13:46]sisters have paid the ultimate price and deserve to be here. And they had to meet her an
[13:53]acknowledge her for being represented if I suppose you could say of all those young people who fled
[13:59]to Israel. The Debingur and the prime minister, the first prime minister, when every came to the
[14:05]house, which was every week because Wazeman was actually quite sick and never left his home for
[14:11]until he died, he actually died while still president in the home. And Bingur and the prime minister
[14:16]had to visit her every week and Bingur and would immediately seek out Livia and he would kiss the
[14:22]numbers on her hand and hear Livia sort of joke about you think my numbers would be all gone by now
[14:28]because Bingur and would kiss them away so many times. So that folks as the story of these three
[14:35]amazing sisters that each had two children, to be two boys, make the two girls and Livia boy and
[14:42]a girl. And today, four generations of the legacy of their survival, their victory. Wow. Oh my
[14:51]gosh. Heather, you are just a master storyteller. I could just sit here and listen to you all day.
[14:58]I mean, and I know you write that way too from your book, but just even listening to you,
[15:03]I mean, wow. Well, I'm just so, so humbled to be telling these stories. I really am. And I don't
[15:10]say that I'm not likely and gallably, but they trust me to tell their stories. It's a huge thing.
[15:18]You know, like, I nearly got to know me over, you know, three years. I was with them. I've been
[15:22]taught two hours before he died, knowing he would not see the sun come up the next day. He met my
[15:28]family. He knew my family. He flirted with my daughter. She was with him. He was part of my family,
[15:35]but for these sisters. But not only Livia and Magda, Sibi died by way in 2014. So I haven't met her,
[15:43]but I've got his story, not only from her sisters, but from her two sons, but also both Sibi and
[15:51]Livia made showered tapes. And so I've been able to sit and not listen to Sibi's tape, watch her
[16:00]having read the translation because I don't speak Hebrew. And so I have her story from her mouth.
[16:07]Why read it as fiction? And writing a lovely story, I was told initially to write it as a memoir,
[16:12]and I tried to do that. You know, I even went to memoir school for a day. And it was a five day course
[16:18]because I knew after one day I couldn't tell it under the rules of a memoir or a biography.
[16:24]They're quite straight. You can't have conversations in them. It's been three years talking to Livia.
[16:30]How else can I tell her story if not through the conversations that he had shared with me?
[16:36]And so in making that decision, the publisher said, well, it has to become fiction
[16:41]because you are in some ways reimagining the conversations that you've had. Let me give you a good
[16:46]example of it with the sisters of what I do. And I'm going to give away at the beginning here,
[16:51]folks, but I don't think you're a little matter. Because if you picked up the book in the library
[16:55]or in the bookshop and you read the first two or three pages, you'd read this anyway.
[17:00]The whole premise of the story, and you're going to see this in a few weeks time when another
[17:05]video comes out that has been made about the family and all the families. Oh, I can't wait.
[17:10]You're going to learn that these girls, this survival, they attribute this survival to a promise
[17:16]they made to their father when they were little girls. They were three, five, and seven.
[17:22]And that promise was to stay together, look after each other, always be there for each other.
[17:27]And here's the spoiler. Their father died the next day.
[17:33]So I know that. They've told me that. And their whole life has all been about, remember,
[17:38]the promise to pop up. That's how they remind each other off.
[17:42]Now, I'm told this by the girls, Olivia and Magda, I call them the girls. I know, okay,
[17:47]sit and then my sister say nearly 100, they tell me that. And then I said to them, what do you
[17:53]remember? How much do you remember about the promise other than the fact that you remember it
[17:59]all your life? What were the circumstances? And Olivia tried to say something and Magda looked
[18:06]you were three. You don't remember it at all. You just remember us because we were
[18:10]reminded you we'd be day of your life. And there's this lovely banter that goes on between these
[18:16]two beautiful sisters. And Magda said to me, you know, I can't remember the details.
[18:23]And like, okay, it doesn't matter. And now I said to them, okay, tell me about your home and
[18:28]slop up here and run off. And because they left there, then there's teenagers the same home,
[18:33]both of them start telling me, well, that's the house we had one bedroom and we slept shed,
[18:38]that was mama. And their grandfather, who came to live with the mother, their father died.
[18:45]They joked and said, he lived in a broom closet, they'd be saying, he'd just poor grandfather,
[18:49]he'd skipped in the broom closet. I said, it wasn't really a broom closet and she said,
[18:54]well, no, but it was so small it should have been. Okay, and then they describe a tiny little
[18:59]kitchen area and with two chairs with the grandmother and the grandfather set an under table.
[19:05]And that's pretty much it. And like, okay, I've now got a visual of the home they lived in.
[19:12]But then Magda piped up with, remember the only industry out in the backyard,
[19:17]and she said, of course, and Magda said, every year, the only industry wanted to die and
[19:24]mama wouldn't let her. And that's the memory that this teenage girl has has. Of course, it really
[19:31]was a matter of every winter, the tree dying off, but to Magda, even now at 98, that tree was
[19:38]wanting to die and her mother bought her back to life and wouldn't have let her.
[19:41]And and then he piped in and she said, and the gate on the back fence that was never fixed
[19:48]and it used to bang when the wind blew and it skied me at night. So when you're sitting with these
[19:53]women well into their 90s and that's their memory, well, my job now is to tell you about the
[19:59]promise to them.
[20:00]father, and I get to decide where to set it. So I reimagined and set it out in the backyard with
[20:08]their father around the early industry. So that's why it's fiction because we don't know for
[20:14]a fact that's where that conversation happened. And so everything, well, the majority of my
[20:20]stories, of course, they tell me the vignette, they tell me what happened. And I, through research,
[20:27]of what, yeah, the makeup of Auschwitz Birkenau, researching the death marches and where they
[20:33]were and how they were. I can reimagine and put the girls into it for that reason, published a science
[20:39]fiction. Wow. What a story. And you told that seemed beautifully. And the father was, was this true
[20:47]too that he died of the bullet that was lodged in for the first war? Yeah. Oh my gosh.
[20:52]And it caused some problems for years. Yeah. It might be debilitating and a doctor and
[20:57]coshata, which is the nearest sort of large town to run off. It persuaded him that he could
[21:02]operate and remove it and he never made it off the table. After all this work that you've done so
[21:10]far and that clearly you're still right in the middle of doing, what does it inspire you to do?
[21:16]Now that you know all this, right, you, you came from a position of not knowing that much
[21:20]about the Holocaust other than, you know, broad strokes and Frank. And now you're deep in it.
[21:25]And like the ultimate researcher really of the entire thing. And of course our last
[21:32]survivors are on their, you know, are elderly at this point. So do you feel a big responsibility
[21:39]at this? I mean, you're sharing obviously the story is far and wide in your fiction. But I don't
[21:43]know above and beyond that, do you, are you getting involved in Jewish organizations? Or is there,
[21:48]like do you feel this now ownership to some extent of, you know, do you know what I'm trying to say?
[21:54]I look, I do. Very clear, there may be my books that never my stories.
[21:59]In terms of responsibility, the only responsibility I actually feel is to Lali and Gita
[22:07]to silk up into the three sisters and their families. I am not an academic or historian.
[22:13]And, you know, we just are so grateful that for the decades since the Holocaust,
[22:17]they have kept that alive. And they will continue. And absolutely.
[22:22]But is your place for the individual stories that are now coming out? Absolutely. I believe so.
[22:29]Along with every survivor, I've met, you know, who they pay homage to, who they actually revere.
[22:36]Steven Spielberg. He who made that amazing movie Schindler's list, who when he completed that
[22:45]sent a videographer's all around the world, find survivors, record their testimonies.
[22:52]Yeah, Lali and Gita and Melbourne made a show at a video, Olivia and Sippy did.
[22:59]And I believe that he has some 50,000 plus testimonies, which will endure. And the stories are there.
[23:08]Yes, we're not going to have the same access to get them first hand anymore. But for a lot of
[23:13]them, they've been told. Are you ready to rate 50,000 books? It's not obvious, honey. I haven't
[23:19]got the years on me left to do that. He's in terms of where I sit with regard to the Jewish
[23:27]people, the religion, the culture, the race, any other title you wish to give yourselves,
[23:34]absolutely privileged to be accepted into Jewish communities all around the world.
[23:39]And speak at them from South Africa, to the London synagogue, and of course the New York Holocaust
[23:45]Museum, and everywhere in between. I am because it's not obvious. I don't mind speaking.
[23:51]I am really bummed about the pandemic, which has kept me from traveling. And when I can,
[23:57]I will get back on the road and be traveling more. This is now what I've, it's not even a calling,
[24:02]that's sort of being blubbed to. I'm very, very happy to speak to any organization
[24:10]who wants me to. So I don't use the word proud with me very often. But one thing I'm very proud of
[24:17]is that in Australia, in particular the largest state, the New South Wales, and about two weeks
[24:23]time, the children there, this will return to school. They're on their summer break.
[24:29]And for the two years, what are called year seven and eight, the tattoos of Auschwitz is required
[24:35]reading. And there are many schools in Australia already, and in the UK, in New Zealand,
[24:43]that because on the curriculum. And I speak to schools, I used to go and do a lot in person, of
[24:50]course it's now zooming. But for me, being able to have young students now read another
[24:57]story out of the Holocaust. Yes, I had Anne Frank starry and the boy in striped pajamas.
[25:02]And now they've got Nani and Geisha's story. The wonderful thing is that these kids actually
[25:07]seem to relate to it. And I know that from the thousands and thousands who have written to me,
[25:12]and even thousands more than I've met and spoken to kids, teenagers, as young as nine,
[25:19]have written to men saying, I get it. Well, it's amazing. You're doing a bit of that, honestly.
[25:28]Many years I pick my every good story. These people involved were just ordinary people.
[25:34]Yeah, but they lived and survived extraordinary times. And they, none of these survivors that I've
[25:41]met and I've met them all around the world, many of them. None of them want to be in any way
[25:46]singled out or praised or in any way revered for what they did. It really is a matter of tell
[25:51]my story so that it doesn't happen again. I guess. Heather, what advice would you have
[25:58]for an aspiring author, particularly perhaps somebody who's trying to do this brand of historical
[26:04]fiction, if you will? Look, find a snippet in your newspaper. Go back to old media and look at
[26:11]something and see what catches your attention. There'll be something there. If you've got an interest
[26:18]in the weather or in military or whatever, it's a matter of find this little gem of which
[26:25]they are there every day in front of you. You just got to open your eyes or listen and then start
[26:31]looking into it. Now, here's the thing about research, which has got me into a little bit of
[26:37]strife occasionally. I don't get me wrong. I do research and I have paid professional researchers
[26:42]as well as much as we can. But when it comes down to telling a story and research
[26:51]through the history and the memory of the person I know, don't walk side by side,
[26:58]I have to choose, well, what am I going to go with? And every time I'm going to go with the
[27:03]memory because I'm not sure if you can confirm this, but I was told several years ago by a rabbi
[27:09]in Sydney that in Hebrew, there is no word for history that all your stories must come from the
[27:17]memories of those who lived, survived, were part of witnessed, experienced. That's where the stories
[27:24]come from. And if they're flawed and their memory is not 100%, does it matter? To some people
[27:31]it does to me. It doesn't. Their memory, their story. And the number of survivors I have
[27:39]met and I get quite sort of a motion about this, who think me for writing and telling Lally
[27:44]and Gita's story in particular? And they say in telling their story, you've told mine.
[27:51]And they often will qualify that with I now can rest easy. I now don't have to keep trying to
[27:58]persuade others to remember. Well, Heather, wow. Thank you. Thank you for talking to me. Thank
[28:06]you on behalf of all the listeners who are hearing your story and the stories that you're pulling
[28:11]out and shining light on that could have just as easily been forgotten and instead are going to
[28:17]change lives. So it's really powerful work that you do and really meaningful and it's just
[28:23]amazing to hear it right from you. So thank you. Oh, look, thank you so much. And the story of
[28:30]Livy and Magda and Sibi, it really focuses one worth knowing because they were just as young girls
[28:39]and that pack, that sibling in love. And Lally and Gita's story is romantic love. And this is
[28:45]what I like about these stories is that we've gone from romantic love to the unconditional
[28:51]love of siblings and that bond, which for the majority of us, I hope, and I presume is unbreakable.
[29:00]And look, I'm here in California. I flew here from Australia and this in 48 hours ago.
[29:07]I've been locked out, locked in so much to the world, but I'm here to be with my brother and my
[29:13]sister-in-law because it's all about family. Oh, wow. Thank you. Well, enjoy your
[29:21]time in the States. Get home with no incident. It needs to be seen. Yeah, exactly. You and
[29:29]you and Djokovic may be hanging out at the hotel. Okay, I won't go there. Okay.
[29:37]Anyway, all right, well, thank you so much for spending the time with me and for sharing
[29:41]all of your work. I'm just so excited to follow everything and to watch the new video that you
[29:45]'ll be releasing soon too. Yeah, it's not a couple of weeks time. Okay. All right. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you.
[29:52]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms. Don't have time to read books. Don't forget to
[29:56]follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and at Moms.
[30:00]Don't have time to read books.
[30:01]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com
[30:04]and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:05]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:08]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan,
[30:09]in fact, Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[30:12]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:14]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.