Debbie Millman, WHY DESIGN MATTERS
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[0:38]Enjoy the show.
[0:40]Debbie Millman is the author of Why Design Matters, Conversations with the world's most creative people.
[0:46]Named one of the most creative people in business herself by fast company
[0:50]and one of the most influential designers working today by graphic design USA.
[0:55]Debbie is also an author, educator, curator, and host of the podcast Design Matters,
[1:00]one of the world's first and longest-running podcasts.
[1:03]In the 16 years since its inception, that's 16, in case you didn't think you heard me right.
[1:07]1-6, Design Matters has garnered a Cooper Hewitt National Design Award,
[1:12]six webbing nominations, and an Apple Podcast's best overall podcast designation.
[1:17]In 2009, Debbie co-founded with Stephen Heller, the world's first graduate program in branding
[1:22]at the School of Visual Arts in New York City.
[1:25]She's the author of seven books, including her latest Why Design Matters,
[1:28]and has been published in over ten languages.
[1:31]Her writing and illustrations have appeared in The New York Times,
[1:33]the Washington Post, New York Magazine, print Magazine, Design Observer and Fast Company.
[1:38]Her artwork has also been included at prestigious universities and museums around the world.
[1:42]Debbie is president emeritus of AIGA and is a frequent speaker on design and branding.
[1:47]Her TED talk was ranked one of the best TED talks of 2020.
[1:51]She lives in New York and Los Angeles with her wife, Roxanne Gay.
[1:54]Welcome, Debbie.
[1:55]Thank you so much for coming.
[1:57]I'm Bob Stone.
[1:58]I'm time to read Bex to discuss yearbook.
[1:59]Why Design Matters?
[2:01]Conversations with the world's most creative people.
[2:04]Thank you.
[2:05]Thank you.
[2:06]Thank you.
[2:07]I'm so honored to be here.
[2:08]I love your podcast.
[2:09]Thank you.
[2:10]Oh my gosh.
[2:11]You're so sweet.
[2:12]It's so funny because a couple of years ago when I was nominated for the Webby Award,
[2:15]you were one of the people I was nominated against.
[2:17]And I was like, who is this woman?
[2:19]What's going on?
[2:20]And I did all this research on you.
[2:22]So I've been following everything you do since then.
[2:24]And now I'm like so delighted to be talking to you.
[2:27]Me too.
[2:28]Same here.
[2:29]That we can finally meet face-to-face.
[2:33]It's also so neat because you are this consummate interviewer, right?
[2:37]All the introduction to this book and everybody's talking about, you know,
[2:41]your wife, Roxanne Gay and Tim Ferriss and even your description of how you do things
[2:46]and how many episodes you've done over 400.
[2:49]Everybody's talking about your amazing interview style.
[2:51]So like here I am.
[2:53]That's my guess.
[2:54]I'm like, oh gosh.
[2:56]Anyway, I'm kidding.
[2:57]But it's like a little like, what did how did she do it?
[3:01]Oh, I'm happy to talk about it.
[3:03]It's just so easy for me to talk about.
[3:06]So please, if you want to talk about that, we can absolutely do that.
[3:09]Okay.
[3:10]Well, let's start with this absolutely gorgeous book.
[3:13]Why design matters?
[3:14]I'm so, first of all, as like a coffee table book.
[3:18]This is amazing.
[3:19]So for people listening, it's this, you know, square book white with red letters
[3:24]and this little squirrely, you know, squiggly black line.
[3:27]And it looks like something you just want to cuddle up with and read and delve into every
[3:31]picture.
[3:32]And then all the pictures inside are gorgeous of the different guesses.
[3:35]It's been on Debbie's first radio show and then podcast.
[3:38]Okay.
[3:39]So how, why this book, why this way to do this book?
[3:43]There were so many ways you could have gone to tell me about that.
[3:46]Well, initially, just a couple of years after the podcast started back in,
[3:51]I want to say 2007 or so.
[3:54]So two years after I started the podcast was actually talking to Stephen Heller, who
[3:58]is featured in the book, who's my mentor and was written about, I don't know,
[4:02]over 200 books about design and culture and every aspect of the creative practice.
[4:10]And I was, I hadn't published a book at that point.
[4:13]And I really wanted to.
[4:15]And so the thing that felt most credible to me was maybe doing something about the podcast
[4:22]or on the show that I was doing at that time, which he didn't think was a very good idea.
[4:28]And the reason was because he felt that everybody could just listen for free.
[4:34]There was no reason.
[4:36]And I decided I'm really, really glad to listen to him because two years after doing the podcast,
[4:41]I was still a pretty crumbly podcaster.
[4:44]In fact, I was in in time.
[4:46]No, I was it.
[4:47]I was, I've been doing this now for 17 years.
[4:50]And the first four.
[4:53]I did not know what the heck I was doing.
[4:55]I was terrible.
[4:56]I remember asking my second guest after we were finished.
[5:01]And she was a friend, a friend.
[5:03]And I said, so, how do you think I did expecting like backpads and high fives?
[5:08]And she paused and said, well, and you know, nothing good is coming after that word.
[5:15]It's heading quite that way.
[5:17]She said, well, it might be better if you listen to my answers before you started crafting your next questions in your head.
[5:29]And she was right.
[5:31]And over the over those first five years, even I would say I was constantly learning on the job.
[5:39]So to have come out with a book at that point would have been a disaster.
[5:44]And in fact, I really didn't think about it again, but it's at that point in 2017 when the book deal first came together.
[5:52]I had already published a number of books.
[5:54]So that the idea of doing that specific kind of book about the podcast.
[5:58]It's sort of long fallen by the wayside.
[6:00]But my agent, Charlie Cheetie, was really certain that at that point in time it would make a good.
[6:08]It would make a good artifact of nothing more about the history of the show, about the longevity of the show, what it was like in the early podcasting years, which was sort of, you know, the gold rush in a lot of ways.
[6:22]And so I reconsidered and thought about it. And at that point, pre pandemic, I was excited thinking about approaching this more from an editorial perspective.
[6:33]I went to go on a photo shoot. I was going to take photos of all the guests that were included.
[6:37]It was going to be a very creative, highly hands-on endeavor.
[6:41]And then of course the pandemic hit and I had to rethink everything I was doing about this book, which I had already gotten in advance for some of which I'd already spent.
[6:50]And so at that point I had to rethink, but now, and I got a year, a year extension because of all of the things that were happening in the world with the election is COVID.
[7:04]And now the book is finally coming out really almost five years later after the original idea first became a reality.
[7:14]And so it's a little bit hard. Despite the length of my answer, it's a little bit hard to say why now only in that I think that Charlotte really believed that there was something to be offered in a collection of some of the best conversations that I had.
[7:35]And I agree now that it's done and feel really grateful for her to her for helping me to make this happen.
[7:44]And also the format choices I'm interested in because I've always thought like, well, what should I do? I have all this kind of the hours of conversations.
[7:52]Right. Do with them like what so you've chosen to do this in such a gorgeous way. I mean, this is such a unique way to handle that. So why make it like a, I mean, I know your background is on design. So of course that makes sense for you and your brand and everything.
[8:06]But just speak to like how you came up with this format and the way to tell your, you know, tell your story through your conversations.
[8:13]Well, I did have, I don't say I rode the hotels a little bit of the great designer, Michael Beirut.
[8:20]Michael Beirut is a long time partner at pentagram and has really helped create the visual language of our world. Honestly, he's that he's that accomplished.
[8:32]And I was sitting in my editor's office as we were talking about my vision for the book and I knew that I wanted to do something square because of the format of the logo and the way that visual show up on
[8:46]Apple podcasts and Spotify and so forth, you know, that that little sort of square, which used to be, you know, a giant 12 by 12 album.
[8:53]And I was sitting in her office and Harper Collins also published Michael's book and Michael's book was 10 by 10 and gorgeous in the paper was gorgeous.
[9:05]The jacket was gorgeous. The case was gorgeous. Everything about it photography. And I said, well, I'd love it to have that sort of plunk value of of Michael's book.
[9:14]And so I ended up biting you a little bit in in the back only in that when I came to Charlotte with the first round of covers.
[9:25]I'm not sorry, not sure when I came to my editor with the first round of covers to say, well, they look a little bit too much like Michael Beirut and I'm like, well, Michael's book came out like five years ago and
[9:38]they really don't and it's a totally different title. And she's like, Oh, I don't know if I told you, but Michael's reissue and republished a book in a new edition coming out the same time yours is.
[9:50]Like because of the size, we don't want people to get confused given that you're both, you know, in the design field and I was like, Oh my God.
[9:58]So we ended up.
[10:00]having to work around that.
[10:01]And I think ultimately didn't a beautiful way.
[10:02]Michael's book is black with white time,
[10:04]minus white with gray and red.
[10:06]And so, you know, that was a struggle
[10:09]for a little while and kind of a big disappointment.
[10:11]And I also didn't want Michael to think
[10:13]that I was copying him any more than I already was.
[10:16]And then in terms of the inside,
[10:20]in terms of who was featured,
[10:22]you have some authors have a big picture,
[10:25]which is gorgeous like Anne Lamott.
[10:27]And by the way, we have so many of the same guests
[10:29]by I wanted to make a whole list,
[10:30]but it was really exciting to see them.
[10:32]Anyway, Anne Lamott, who's one has like a full page,
[10:35]beautiful picture of herself,
[10:37]but then someone like Alyssa Altman,
[10:38]who I also adore, has like a quote,
[10:41]what you have like some quote pages that aren't.
[10:43]So how did you go about figuring that whole thing out?
[10:46]Who's getting a quote?
[10:47]Who's getting an excerpt from their interview
[10:49]and the picture and all of that?
[10:52]It was a challenge because I have interviewed
[10:54]over 400 people.
[10:56]I had a finite number of pages.
[10:58]I was originally supposed to submit 70,000 words.
[11:01]I submitted 150,000, thankfully,
[11:04]and I did a lot with the type to make it all work.
[11:07]And the interviews, if I transcribed any of my interviews,
[11:12]especially in the later years,
[11:13]I would say from 2015 to now,
[11:16]those interviews come in at about 10,000 words.
[11:19]There was no way I was gonna be able to include 10
[11:23]or 15 interviews that just wasn't going to work.
[11:26]So the biggest criteria for inclusion
[11:29]was can I pull out a part of the conversation,
[11:33]that could stand alone without a beginning
[11:36]and an end, sort of the well of the conversation
[11:39]does it stand up on its own?
[11:41]And in some cases, it didn't, in some cases,
[11:43]that well, that sort of significant aspect
[11:46]of what we were talking about
[11:48]was highly dependent on their backstory, their origin story.
[11:52]And so I couldn't take it out.
[11:53]I didn't wanna destroy the integrity of the interview
[11:57]by pulling something out.
[11:59]And so that became, the quotes became a way
[12:02]of still including people that I felt belonged in the book.
[12:06]Simply, the interviews themselves,
[12:09]not only did I feel like I could pull out something standalone
[12:12]25 to 4,000 words, it also felt like it needed
[12:16]to really be timely.
[12:18]There were some authors that I had on the book
[12:20]where I'll be talked about was the 2016 election.
[12:23]Well, I don't want to do that again in the book.
[12:26]It would feel really stale.
[12:28]Not that the topics aren't interesting,
[12:30]but the actual sort of specifics of the election
[12:33]would feel really overdone.
[12:36]And so I had to make some really, really hard choices.
[12:39]So the excerpt in the excerpt ability,
[12:43]the timeliness, and it being timeless.
[12:46]And then, as importantly, and I'm glad you mentioned it,
[12:49]the photography.
[12:50]Initially, I wanted to go on a photo tour,
[12:53]which would have been a blast and so much fun.
[12:56]But I couldn't do that, it was COVID times.
[12:58]I also didn't wanna do remote photography
[13:01]where I was directing somebody through the screen
[13:04]to feel like that was intimate enough.
[13:06]And so one of the things that I ended up having to do
[13:09]quite surprisingly, quite unexpectedly,
[13:12]was photo edit my own book.
[13:15]That gave me a real opportunity
[13:18]to do something that I hadn't done since college
[13:21]when I worked on my student newspaper.
[13:23]And that was to really become a photo editor
[13:26]and research and fine photos that I felt had the right
[13:32]energy and soul.
[13:34]One thing that I didn't want was a magazine type book
[13:40]where it looked like different articles
[13:43]from different writers and photographers.
[13:46]I really wanted there to be a thread
[13:48]that knitted all of the photographs together.
[13:51]And for me, that became every photograph,
[13:55]had to reveal the author or interviews or write,
[13:59]it was author's interviews, musicians,
[14:01]you know, so many designers,
[14:04]it had to reveal their soul.
[14:06]And I really, really think I did that.
[14:08]I have to say it's one of the things
[14:10]that I'm proudest about in this book
[14:12]is the journey that people take through the book,
[14:15]looking at the artists and editors and writers
[14:19]and performers and so on and so forth.
[14:22]And so, some of them were really hard.
[14:24]And there were a few that I had to exclude
[14:27]because I couldn't get a photo that really said,
[14:31]this is who I am, look at me, see me.
[14:35]And then that was what I would include.
[14:38]Because the people that I want to include
[14:41]were really important to be every single person.
[14:43]You know, it's like Sophie's choice,
[14:44]picking interviews is ridiculous.
[14:47]And so that was a way for me to include a lot more people.
[14:51]I also was able to do that on the end pages.
[14:53]I did that as well.
[14:55]And then there's also a little surprise
[14:57]under the jacket on the case of words that I chose
[15:00]that if people explore enough, they'll find.
[15:05]Under the jacket, okay.
[15:07]On the case.
[15:08]Ah, oh, I'm glad you didn't see it.
[15:12]Reveal in real time.
[15:14]Wow, look at this.
[15:15]Oh my goodness.
[15:16]Very cool.
[15:19]Very cool.
[15:20]So neat.
[15:21]I love it.
[15:22]And these pictures, I mean, oh my gosh.
[15:23]Look at this.
[15:24]It's like, I feel like I'm like with some Albert.
[15:27]Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, yeah.
[15:28]I'm gonna have Albert.
[15:30]Watson and you have this mix of like,
[15:32]an on-jira dasi.
[15:34]Get your guard us, yeah.
[15:35]Your guard us.
[15:36]And these like close up, like smoldering looks
[15:40]and then I remember earlier I saw like Alanda Botone
[15:43]and he was like sort of farther away
[15:45]and like I'm trying to remember what other ones.
[15:47]Yeah, this one at Malcolm Gladwell.
[15:49]I mean, they're just, yeah, offensive and thinking.
[15:52]Anyway, beautiful.
[15:54]And then I believe it or not,
[15:55]this ended up becoming the part of the book
[15:57]that I had the most joy with.
[15:59]Wow.
[16:00]I was the photo editor of my yearbook back in high school.
[16:03]So I didn't know, you know, yes, right?
[16:05]I love me back to college.
[16:07]It was very normal back to the darkroom
[16:10]and you know, all of that, this dark camera layout
[16:13]and all that.
[16:14]Yeah, I love photography so much
[16:16]and seeing these pictures, you know,
[16:19]this is a work of art just in that.
[16:21]So thank you.
[16:22]Thank you.
[16:23]It was really neat.
[16:24]Let's talk a little bit about your interviewing.
[16:27]I love how it was described in the book,
[16:29]exactly what your studio looked like.
[16:31]Is that still how you do that with the?
[16:33]It is when I can do them in person.
[16:36]Yeah, but because of COVID times, it's much harder.
[16:40]It was a big adjustment to begin to do the interviews
[16:43]via Zoom like we're doing now.
[16:45]But I also sort of think there's something slightly more
[16:48]intimate about being a lot closer to a person.
[16:51]You know, when I'm in my studio,
[16:52]it's a very small studio.
[16:54]It's very intimate.
[16:55]It's dark, but we're still like three feet apart.
[16:59]Unzoom, you're really just like one foot apart.
[17:02]You know, then there's no barrier.
[17:04]You're just sort of looking right into someone's eyes.
[17:07]It really fulfills that really.
[17:08]Right?
[17:09]Yeah, but the process of doing the show in the studio,
[17:14]it feels a long time ago.
[17:16]I only done one since with one person.
[17:18]No, no, I'm sorry, two, two.
[17:20]It's since 2022 in the studio, everything else.
[17:24]And in 2021, I did a record.
[17:26]And we think it could 37 episodes.
[17:28]So that's a lot of Zoom time.
[17:31]And it's ad for me to not sort of have that
[17:33]physical presence.
[17:35]And one of the bigger differences in one that I'm sad about
[17:39]is in the studio, I was able, after the interview,
[17:44]I was had a lot of studio audience,
[17:45]a little bit like inside the actor's studio.
[17:48]And but it wasn't televised.
[17:51]And when we've come out of the studio,
[17:53]my students, my grad students would have an opportunity
[17:56]to ask their own questions of my guest for about a half hour.
[18:00]And that's something I really do miss first
[18:03]because it gave them some access they would never have
[18:05]otherwise had, which they loved.
[18:08]And secondly, we just ask really good questions.
[18:11]They ask really good questions.
[18:13]And I always was learning from them
[18:15]about what they were curious about.
[18:17]So that's an aspect of the show that I'm sad about.
[18:20]You know, I did something sort of like,
[18:23]I might have a solve, but I have this virtual book club
[18:25]and what we, I talked to the book club about the book.
[18:28]And then I always had the author come for 30 minutes
[18:30]of Q&A afterwards.
[18:31]That's wonderful.
[18:32]I was thinking about, yeah, I'm thinking about doing something
[18:35]on club panels where I invite the guest back.
[18:38]And then, you know, a big audience could come.
[18:41]And because everything is audio,
[18:43]just I don't know that anybody would feel like they were
[18:45]missing anything by being able to join.
[18:48]But that would also require, I don't know how you've been
[18:50]able to ask people for more.
[18:52]I always feel so, I don't know, apprehensive about asking.
[18:56]And like, oh, we'd just like to do this too, you know,
[18:59]but I think I'm going to try it with people that are willing.
[19:01]I don't do it at the same time as the podcast.
[19:03]Yeah, I won't.
[19:04]It's a more like, hey, would you,
[19:06]I don't think it's such a big ask for 30 minutes
[19:08]of someone's time for Q&A.
[19:10]It's pretty easy.
[19:11]You know, they don't compare anything
[19:12]and they get exposed to some new people.
[19:14]And I haven't found that to be too hard.
[19:17]It's my, I feel, I feel worse.
[19:19]Well, I don't know.
[19:20]Anyway.
[19:21]It's a whole simple conversation with what we feel entitled
[19:23]to do and not to do it.
[19:24]I know exactly.
[19:25]I don't know.
[19:26]Like, no, I should stop right there.
[19:27]We can talk about that when I have you on my podcast.
[19:30]Oh my gosh.
[19:32]Oh, it's too funny.
[19:34]And your conversations though, are there in depth and long,
[19:37]right? And now we're in a half.
[19:39]Sometimes, I mean, there were usually an hour and a half,
[19:41]but me, my have a very, very intense editor who, you know,
[19:45]every now and then when we were in the studio,
[19:46]I'd see him walking at his clock.
[19:48]And I'd be thinking, oh, that's where he's cutting it.
[19:52]With my editor going to sleep, I know that my editor is bored.
[19:56]I don't have to sort of, you know,
[19:57]speed things up a little bit.
[19:59]I love.
[20:00]to talk. I love to hear what people have to say. I love to listen. You know, I love to just
[20:05]probe. And ultimately though, I think unless there are musicians where they're playing something
[20:11]for us, generally now they go about an hour, an hour, a little bit maybe over occasionally,
[20:16]but mostly about an hour, although I guess I'll keep talking to people until I sort of sense
[20:22]if I don't want to talk anymore. That's, I mean, that's a big, I feel like that's a bigger
[20:28]ask, to be honest, because that's a big chunk of time. Somebody could go watch a movie or
[20:32]something, not that they would true. But it makes your, your format so powerful, right? The,
[20:37]the intensity and how deep you are able to go. I mean, that's really such a gift, right? I'm,
[20:44]I can't. It must be really, I, I must be. I do love it. I do love it. I feel like I have one of the
[20:49]best jobs in the world being able to listen to people, especially, you know, now I'm getting into a
[20:54]a place where there are people that I'm interviewing that I have been fans of for like most of
[21:03]my life and certainly all of my adult life. I would interviewed with Julie Jones a couple of months
[21:08]ago and I've been kind of obsessed with her music since 1979 when she first came out and sort of
[21:15]had to be sitting, you know, face to face with her and at one point she started to sing
[21:21]or Microsoft from R&M, same timing, you know, thinking back to my younger self and imagining
[21:27]fantasizing at that point about being able to talk to them. It would have felt like,
[21:32]you know, you're talking about something else's life. And so it feels so extraordinary
[21:40]to be able to do something like this when these people mean so much to me. It's a gift.
[21:47]I feel the same way. This is what I'm always saying about this. Like books that I read as a kid
[21:53]or in my 20s or 30s or whatever during a really hard time of my life and that was the book that
[21:59]helped me through and then all of a sudden the author is like sitting next to me here or on Zoom
[22:03]and I get to talk to them like any other conversation I would have all day. It's like magic.
[22:08]It's just amazing. And even just to be able to thank someone for the profound effect they've
[22:12]had in your life. I know they probably get it all the time but I don't know. I feel exactly the
[22:20]same way. I feel like we also have so many. So I used to be, I started my whole career in branding
[22:25]and so I was really familiar with all the, you of course at the top of, went to the top of your
[22:30]field and ran your own company and everything else but I've always been really interested in
[22:36]understanding consumer behavior and consumer relationships. People's relationships with the brands
[22:42]that they love and I couldn't articulate exactly why but from a young age I was like I want to
[22:48]write a letter to Colgate. I mean I did this with authors too but like my mom would read me the
[22:53]back of the shampoo while I took a bath. I'm like read it to me again. I love that so much. I
[22:59]love that so much and what I would not give to see those letters. Right and they would send me
[23:05]form letters back you know. Thank you for writing us about how much you like Kleenex. I was like
[23:11]wow I got a letter from my company and then I worked in advertising and brand planning for a little
[23:16]bit and I got to be a part of that whole thing and I would sit in as like a college intern on
[23:22]the Maxwell House campaign things or the Pepperidge Farm desk or this or that. Oh my god look at those
[23:28]guys. I worked on all of those brands I've worked on. Oh my god we could have been in the same
[23:32]meetings. I think that you should write a story called letters to Colgate. Oh
[23:37]the question about your feelings about that time would be so I think so many people would really
[23:43]I love it. This is what I usually do is tell me what they should write about. It's like this is great
[23:49]but I feel like there's some overlap in this. There's something about the power of brands and brand
[23:55]relationships and and because it's really intimate honestly the feelings you have it's it's another
[24:01]relationship that you have in your life. Yes. If somebody you trust, if somebody you can feel betrayed
[24:06]by you can feel a loss like when when that something's discontinued like the the corn muffins
[24:12]and barefoot Contessa the shop like when that shop closed I felt like I grieved for that because
[24:18]that was like a brand for me and then of course she went and made all the cookbooks and it's very
[24:23]you know I'm new president at this point but there's something about that so I'm you're like the brand
[24:29]guru of all time and you were so funny in the book saying that you thought maybe you would go
[24:34]in the grocery and almost everything on the shelves you felt like you had done their branding for
[24:38]tell me a little bit about relationships between people and brands and then how that sort of
[24:44]gets translated into the sort of deep curiosity into people in general. It's a great question.
[24:49]I think early on I you know I had a really really as as we've all had but I had a very
[24:57]difficult upbringing and when I felt bad about myself I started to fantasize that if I had certain
[25:10]things that it would make me feel better about myself and my dad was a pharmacist and he had
[25:16]his own pharmacy and so I when I went to visit him after school first just had to hang out and
[25:25]play in the back of the store but then later in later years to actually work in the store and work
[25:29]the cashier and do a lot of these shelf setups and windows and so forth I began to sort of fantasize
[25:39]about what these things could do for me so my very first obsession were with goody breaths
[25:46]and he had this sort of magical when I thought was a magical sparkly shining wheel that spun
[25:54]and on on the hooks were all of these breaths and ponytail holders and headbands
[26:04]and I thought oh my god and every time I went to visit him I was like to take one thing and I would
[26:11]spend you know half an hour deciding should I take yellow ponytail holders or the red headband
[26:17]and I remember so desperately wanting one of my best friends who lived next door
[26:27]one of her ponytail holders that was a particular kind of pearlescent yellow that I couldn't find
[26:33]anywhere I stole it from her I wrote a whole story about it I stole her breath which you know I can't
[26:41]I wish that I could find her and apologize and center like 500 yellow ponytail holders
[26:47]but that's how desperately I wanted to feel better about myself and what I realized from a very
[26:54]early age was that whatever cashay these things were giving me I mean I couldn't have put it
[26:59]into words at that point at all probably not well into my thirties they were just replacing you
[27:05]you know it was really trying to fill up a very hollow center that had a lot of leaks in it
[27:13]so it kept kneading it was really geeky bucket so every you know goody breaths turned into Levi
[27:19]jeans turned into lacrosse shirts turned into Nike sneakers turned into you know a product jacket
[27:25]that doesn't ever last you know we metabolize our purchases very quickly we metabolize
[27:31]everything we metabolize our promotions we metabolize our our hunger I mean everything is
[27:36]metabolize that's that's part of the nature and the chemistry and biology of our bodies
[27:40]and our brains so that over the years has become harder and harder to balance with the
[27:50]need to responsibly manage the the way in which we manufacture products on the planet but also
[28:01]how we as as how corporations have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholder it's very hard
[28:09]to say that you're going to put the needs of the planet or the needs of the people first
[28:15]when Wall Street is managing your finances and looking very closely at your finances and
[28:20]the way that our capital system has been set up is problematic in that way
[28:25]well long answer oh can you tell me more about your childhood and why it was rough
[28:34]you don't have to know I mean you know trigger alert for publicity you know my parents got divorced
[28:39]when I was eight years old my mom went on to marry somebody that was physically mentally
[28:45]emotionally sexually abusive to me and to some of his other children that marriage lasted
[28:51]four years during that time I was not allowed to see my biological dad then I was he had
[29:00]he had some significant anger issues ended up marrying somebody that also just was very
[29:07]hard for me to be around of the lots and lots of reasons my dad was a super complicated person
[29:14]I loved him very much I wanted very much to make him proud of me was it was you know a great
[29:19]student an overachiever you know your classic people pleaser and yet it was almost impossible to
[29:25]please him and over the course of of our lives together he passed away in 2015 there were five
[29:31]significant estrangements that we had where you know for a decade or so we wouldn't speak to each
[29:37]other that was the longest one well he chose not to speak to me so that was really really hard
[29:43]my mom's been married four times she's now a trumper you know believe said trump is the prophecy
[29:50]thought things that if we should be wearing masks we should be born with them my therapist said
[29:55]when she heard that why about clothes? Yeah!
[30:00]My mother's also was seamstress and the whole thing is just batshit.
[30:05]So yeah, that gives you just some top line points.
[30:09]Oh my gosh.
[30:12]And I know I'm sure you've done the work on with your therapy and everything else as
[30:19]we all aspire to do all the time.
[30:21]You know, the consistency of a brand is a huge bomb, right?
[30:28]It's it's it's always there and it always when people get over that when things
[30:33]are changed.
[30:34]Yeah.
[30:35]I mean, it's quite astonishing to see that we're living in a day and age when a brand
[30:38]changes their identity, that change.org petitions are created demanding that they go back.
[30:45]And what they went back to is like 150 years old.
[30:49]But it's because people, you know, nobody likes change, change sets up all sorts of alarm
[30:56]bells and the reptilian brain, which wants to be safe and secure and certain and know it's
[31:01]coming next and beyond unsecure footing and any kind of significant change creates a sense
[31:08]of vulnerability and uncertainty in a person and that they don't know if it's the same
[31:12]product, the same ingredients, the same costs, the same content.
[31:16]And so that creates a sense of nervousness and trepidation, which people then respond to
[31:24]as you can see online with lots of anger and sometimes real vitriol.
[31:29]Wow.
[31:30]So in terms of visual translating the visual, because that's one piece I feel like you
[31:36]have down pat, right?
[31:39]I feel like I have the relationship piece, but I can't create necessarily.
[31:45]I know what I like, but I'm trying to get better at, you know, like I'm trying to teach
[31:49]myself Canva and like, I just want to be able to do the things that I know I like because
[31:55]it's so hard for me to explain it, you know, but I feel like you're more on the, you totally
[32:00]get it.
[32:01]I mean, you've started this whole school of visual arts program, like how comfortable are
[32:06]you with sort of the execution of all of it versus the instruction?
[32:11]I'm a wonderful art director and I am a wonderful strategist.
[32:17]I can say that with great confidence and I have a great eye, those are things I know
[32:23]I do well.
[32:24]You know, it's always good to know what you do well.
[32:25]It's also really important to know what you don't do well.
[32:28]So like I'm not great on all of the Adobe programs, though I respect them and use them.
[32:35]I'm not by any means an expert.
[32:37]And so I know I need help there, you know, the bigger issues for me are the things that
[32:41]I don't know that I don't know like, obviously I do know Canva, but you could have said
[32:45]anything and I would have been like, oh, what's that, you know, whatever, anything
[32:49]new comes in.
[32:50]Oh, what's TikTok?
[32:51]Oh, what's Vine?
[32:52]Oh, what's, I mean, then I learned them, but I'm not an early adopter by any means.
[32:57]And my wife often jokes that I have such a complicated relationship with technology that
[33:04]it's hard for me sometimes to figure out how to turn on the TV.
[33:07]It is hard.
[33:08]Yeah.
[33:09]I'm so annoyed at the TV.
[33:10]I'm so annoyed at all the things, but that's another, you know, I want a boombox back
[33:13]or I press one button.
[33:14]Right.
[33:15]Right.
[33:16]Yeah.
[33:17]WPLJ and Z100.
[33:18]Like that was it.
[33:19]There were two choices.
[33:20]No.
[33:21]Yeah.
[33:22]Anyway, I know you've written more than this, of course, but unless I missed it, I didn't
[33:28]see if you'd written a whole memoir.
[33:29]Have you written a memoir?
[33:30]No.
[33:32]I've done a lot of visual essays that are memoir-ish in nature, but short, and I'm very
[33:40]tentatively taking steps to thinking that that might be what I do next.
[33:44]Well, I started this publishing company called ZIVI Books, and we're doing 12 books a year.
[33:49]Fiction and memoir.
[33:50]We just announced this book.
[33:51]We're doing with Claire Vidwell Smith, who wrote the Roseman Heritage, called The
[33:55]Rose of the Roodles for Goodness.
[33:56]And we're really trying to do books just like what I would imagine your memoir would be.
[34:01]So I'm just putting it out there.
[34:03]If you have any interest in working together on it, I think it would be amazing.
[34:06]Oh my god.
[34:07]Thank you.
[34:08]That would be amazing.
[34:09]Yeah.
[34:10]Really, it would be very visual.
[34:11]That's, you know, I do a lot of drawing.
[34:14]And so probably more in the vein of the book of illustrated essays that I did called Self
[34:20]Portrait as your trader.
[34:22]But that was not a memoir.
[34:23]It was just reflections.
[34:25]If you want to talk after, I think that would be so cool.
[34:30]I mean, your story and how you've come out of this.
[34:34]And I mean, I just want to hear more and more and more.
[34:36]I'm like totally over the time.
[34:38]Like usually I never lose track of time.
[34:40]This might be the only time I've lost track of time.
[34:42]Thank you.
[34:43]Thank you.
[34:44]Thank you.
[34:45]So anyway, last question, do you have any advice for aspiring authors?
[34:49]Oof, aspiring authors draw your words.
[34:54]It opens up different parts of your brain, at least to get started, especially if you have
[34:59]some writers' black draw the words.
[35:01]I love that.
[35:02]Wow.
[35:03]I cannot draw it to save my life.
[35:05]But that's also why it's, you know, you don't have as much expectation for excellence.
[35:09]That's just the exercise of drawing the words sort of opens up different neural pathways.
[35:14]Well, I'm sorry.
[35:16]I took extra bits of your time here today.
[35:18]I'm so sorry.
[35:19]So much fun.
[35:20]So much fun.
[35:21]It was great to get to know you and I'm in New York too.
[35:25]So let's definitely have a coffee when I'm back in time.
[35:27]That was great.
[35:28]Yeah.
[35:29]Okay.
[35:30]All right.
[35:31]Thank you.
[35:32]Okay.
[35:33]Bye.
[35:34]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[35:37]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at Moms Don't Have Time to Read
[35:41]Books.
[35:42]Also sign up for my newsletter at zebiowens.com and sign up for my virtual book club and
[35:46]meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[35:48]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texture Sound for the Sound Editing.
[35:53]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.
[35:57]Thank you.