Sarah Polley, RUN TOWARDS THE DANGER: Confrontations with a Body of Memory
[0:01]Hi, I'm Sivi Owens and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
[0:05]Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.
[0:07]If you like this podcast, you will love my new anthology called Moms Don't Have Time to Have Kids.
[0:12]Check it out and you'll hear from 49 authors about all sorts of things
[0:16]Moms Don't Have Time to Do. All the authors have been on this podcast.
[0:19]Also, check out my TikTok at with Sivi and Tracy.
[0:22]My other podcast, Sex Talk with Sivi and Tracy.
[0:25]Check out Moms Don't Have Time to Write on Medium.
[0:28]And of course, my new publishing company called Sivi Books.
[0:32]And now, back to our daily author interview site and a quick hello from some of my kids.
[0:36]Hi, hello.
[0:38]Enjoy the show.
[0:40]Sarah Polly is the author of Run Towards the Danger,
[0:44]Confrontations with the Body of Memory.
[0:46]Sarah Polly is an Academy Award nominated screenwriter, director, and actor.
[0:51]After making short films, Polly made her feature-length directorial debut
[0:55]with a drama film away from her in 2006.
[0:58]Polly received an Oscar nomination for the screenplay,
[1:01]which she adapted from the Alice Monroe story.
[1:03]The bear came over the mountain.
[1:05]Her other projects include the documentary film Stories We Tell,
[1:08]which won the New York Film Critics Circle Prize
[1:11]and the National Board of Review Award for Best Documentary.
[1:14]The mini-series adaptation of Margaret Atwood's novel,
[1:18]alias Grace, and the romantic comedy, Take This Walkes.
[1:21]Welcome, Sarah.
[1:22]Thank you so much for coming.
[1:24]I was at our time to read Vex to discuss Run Towards the Danger
[1:27]Confrontations with the Body of Memory.
[1:30]Thank you for having me.
[1:31]I love your podcast.
[1:32]Thank you.
[1:33]I appreciate that.
[1:34]Wow, your book.
[1:36]So good.
[1:37]So literary, so beautifully written, so much to discuss everything from your Alice
[1:44]Wonderland themed stage fright moment at the beginning,
[1:47]all the way to having your own children at the end.
[1:50]Your family, like, there was child acting, your Me Too moment,
[1:55]so to speak, and like the way you dug into everything so deeply.
[2:00]And like, I feel like it's like you're doing like a cat's cradle,
[2:04]like you were like peeling back into every little detail of everything.
[2:08]It was really, really well done.
[2:10]Thank you.
[2:11]I love that image.
[2:12]That's what it felt like.
[2:13]It felt like a really complicated game with string that I could easily get tangled
[2:17]up.
[2:18]And it's a good metaphor.
[2:19]So good.
[2:20]Thank you.
[2:21]Okay.
[2:22]I kind of summarized some of it.
[2:23]But how would you describe it?
[2:24]Let's say somebody's wondering what your book is about.
[2:27]How would you describe this?
[2:30]And why write it particularly one of the essays, which although I can hardly
[2:35]call it essay, because it's so meaty, but that you are open about the fact
[2:39]that you've been writing it and kind of rewriting it and not just being able to decide
[2:43]if you should tell it or not.
[2:44]Why now?
[2:45]I mean, if I was to describe the book to someone, I would say it's a collection
[2:50]of six personal essays that are all through the lens of or a meditation on memory
[2:55]and how memories filter through us and the relationship between our past
[3:00]and our present selves and the way that pivotal moments, traumatic moments,
[3:05]momentous moments in our life and our lives from the past can kind of find these
[3:10]photos in our present life.
[3:12]And when they go a different and better way in the present, it can actually change our
[3:17]relationship and on a molecular level what those memories are in me.
[3:21]So I think I've always been aware that my past experiences have informed
[3:26]who I am now.
[3:27]I've certainly been enough psychotherapy and someone else has to understand that.
[3:31]But I think for me, what became really interesting to explore and to discover was
[3:37]my present life was also impacting my past life that that it was as reciprocal
[3:42]relationship that the past and the present were in and they could kind of push on
[3:46]and move each other.
[3:47]And that felt like a big difference between how I used to think about the memory
[3:52]and what it meant and what I and how I sort of view it and experience it now.
[3:56]Interesting.
[3:57]And then, of course, in one of the final scenes, you have a fire extinguisher
[4:03]on your head.
[4:04]And your whole relationship with your with the brain, like the organ of memory itself
[4:09]becomes physically sort of impaired.
[4:12]And then you have this awakening at the end.
[4:14]And now we have the book.
[4:15]It's like it's like comes full circle.
[4:17]Yeah.
[4:18]I mean, I think that the whole process of diving in and deciding this would be a book
[4:22]really came out of that experience.
[4:24]I had a serious concussion for three and a half years.
[4:27]There were times in there where I was functioning better than others.
[4:30]But I wasn't myself really for three and a half years in terms of my ability
[4:35]to process things and function.
[4:37]And I ended up finally recovering completely from the concussion through this amazing program
[4:43]at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, where the treatment was basically
[4:49]not the opposite of everything I'd been told before, but certainly the opposite of a lot
[4:53]of what I'd been told and and very different in tone from what I'd experienced
[4:57]in terms of various treatments I've been through before, which was I had to for the specific kind of concussion
[5:03]I had, which I don't want to give this as, you know, prescription for everyone because
[5:06]I think he treats everybody differently.
[5:08]I had to sort of charge towards the activities that were hurting my brain, the boats.
[5:11]So the things that gave me headaches, the things I was avoiding because I knew I couldn't handle
[5:17]them.
[5:18]So loud noises, a lot of activity, multi-tasking.
[5:22]The things that made me feel like I was going to have to go to bed for three days.
[5:25]I had to just keep doing it.
[5:26]And you know, it was supported by a lot of specific physical and vestibular treatments and exercises
[5:33]to support, you know, charging in to that kind of stimulus that was so aggravating for me.
[5:40]But the whole idea that to get better, I had to do the things that were the hardest really did become
[5:49]this way of being in the world for me.
[5:51]It really sort of shifted a paradigm in terms of how I've been relating to my life.
[5:56]And what came to mind for me as part of that process was I have a lot of stories that I've
[6:01]half told or wanted to tell or written three quarters of or written a page of that I have
[6:07]feel this burning urge to tell at some point in my life, but I've been too scared.
[6:12]And there must be, you know, if we're talking about the brain responding well to running towards the danger,
[6:17]which is a quote run towards the danger as a quote from Dr. Mickey Collins at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.
[6:23]You know, then why would that not apply to a bunch of other things as well?
[6:27]And so I sort of went back to my computer and dug up these essays that I buried and decided to finish telling these stories that I was too scared to tell.
[6:37]And I did find that it did alleviate a lot to do this.
[6:43]It was also excruciatingly hard and but really transformative.
[6:48]So the essay in which you talk about your own sexual assault and you name the person and you go through what we know,
[7:00]what we don't see a lot in the media, which is what goes into the calculus of whether or not to come forward.
[7:07]It's not as simple as like, I'm brave. I'm going to do this or I'm not brave or whatever.
[7:12]But, you know, in your case, you got all this different advice, which as a new mom and a woman, you have to weigh right your personal life versus what are you sacrificing?
[7:23]And the most powerful one was the advice you got that, you know, it can make you almost want to take your own life at the end of it.
[7:30]Then you run into someone at the end to you were like, well, this is the advice I was given and why I didn't do it.
[7:36]And she was like, I wish I had been given that advice because I did come forward.
[7:40]And I don't know. This is such a, I don't want to like monopolize the conversation with this because I bet this is like in a draw the most a lot of attention.
[7:47]And I don't know if you feel like talking about it or not, but I found it incredibly sort of intellectually interesting the way you had to make that decision.
[7:56]And all the inputs you got from all the lawyers and, you know, everybody he went through the process, but also then how your body had to sort of metabolize all of that and then move forward in the world, especially with the outcome of what ended up happening in the case.
[8:11]I don't know, respond. Yeah, I mean, I mean, for me, I felt like what I can contribute at this late date having not come forward at the time to support those women, which obviously was very, very complicated decision to make.
[8:29]I was quite rigorous about I consulted many, many lawyers. I talked to everyone I knew I had a newborn baby had a two year old.
[8:38]And based on what I was told about how this would go down. I did not believe that I could handle it.
[8:45]So what I felt in writing this essay, I felt I could contribute was to shine a really harsh light and go into forensic detail about how and why women don't come forward in these cases.
[9:00]And I'm sure there are many women listening to this right now who have made a similar decision.
[9:06]There are thousands and thousands of thousands of women, far more women don't come forward than do come forward.
[9:12]And I think I wanted to give that a voice and to look at what that looks like to weigh what kind of impact, you know, that can have on a life to make that decision.
[9:27]And also, you know, the way that people behave after an experience like this, the kind of interactions they might have with the person who is responsible for an experience like this can be really confusing to the outside.
[9:44]I they've certainly been confusing to judges and juries and I kind of wanted to say everything I wanted to cross examine myself and go.
[9:53]This is how this is how we look on a stand. This is how we look when we speak and have.
[10:00]all of the embarrassing parts thrown back at us,
[10:02]there's a lot of things that are really hard for people
[10:05]to process in terms of how people react
[10:08]after an experience like this.
[10:11]So I kind of just wanted to talk about
[10:14]what it means to stay silent,
[10:17]why someone might choose to do that,
[10:19]how it feels to have done that.
[10:21]And it's, you know,
[10:22]this was the one I at least wanted to put out into the world
[10:26]but it's felt like a burning ethical obligation
[10:30]for many, many years.
[10:31]And one that, you know, it's, yeah,
[10:34]it'll be a complicated experience having it
[10:36]out in the world considering that I, you know,
[10:39]had kept it for many, many years.
[10:41]And I've considered publishing this for many, many years,
[10:45]you know, at many different junctures.
[10:47]So yeah, so here it is, I guess.
[10:50]So yeah,
[10:53]you know, it was interesting how you,
[10:56]as you were just saying in your examination
[10:58]of your behavior in the aftermath,
[11:00]how you were like, you know what?
[11:02]No, it didn't make sense.
[11:03]Like I don't know why I responded that way.
[11:05]I don't know why I just email it.
[11:06]I don't know why I joked this way.
[11:08]But so many people do that.
[11:09]And you can't predict necessarily the behavior.
[11:14]Like when you take the course of anyone's dialogue,
[11:18]it's if you take it apart, you'd be like,
[11:21]what, why did you that, but you know,
[11:23]you don't have every piece of communication
[11:26]with another person under a microscope,
[11:28]but in this case, you have to.
[11:29]And sometimes you just want to deflect, right?
[11:32]And by deflecting, it makes it seem like maybe
[11:34]you don't care, but that's not the case.
[11:36]So more people are trying to normalize things
[11:38]where people are behaving out of fear
[11:40]and that can come across as
[11:42]increasing or even flirty.
[11:44]Like I think that we can kind of interpret things
[11:47]through a lens that doesn't really fully understand trauma
[11:51]and the tremendous impact it has on behavior.
[11:55]And behavior that doesn't make sense
[11:58]unless you understand trauma.
[11:59]So I mean, I spent years thinking about every single word
[12:04]of this essay and exactly how to phrase it
[12:06]and talk about it and what I wanted to say.
[12:09]So it is a hard one to talk about
[12:10]because I feel like I had one sentence
[12:12]could undo all of that.
[12:13]We won't even talk about it.
[12:15]But I also don't want to avoid talking about it.
[12:19]So you know what?
[12:20]I have a lot of respect for you for putting it out there
[12:24]and knowing as you communicate there
[12:27]and now how much thought went into it.
[12:30]So hang in there.
[12:32]Thank you.
[12:34]Thank you.
[12:35]I mean, there really were so many things
[12:38]that happened to your body.
[12:40]I mean, not just the physical choking
[12:44]in that chapter, but your spine
[12:46]and how you had to correct that in the horrific surgery.
[12:50]Oh my gosh, that sounded like really difficult
[12:53]to straighten out your back
[12:54]and then your endometriosis and your placenta,
[12:58]previous and like all you've had so much
[13:01]and then the concussion too.
[13:05]I mean, your body has gone through a lot.
[13:07]Like I'm wondering now is I'm looking
[13:08]is this supposed to be like the spine?
[13:10]Is that what the cover is?
[13:11]Yeah, it is.
[13:12]Yeah, that's so cool.
[13:14]Like you're running towards the danger
[13:17]and trying to get it out and even your subtitle,
[13:20]like maybe that's why you talk about it
[13:22]as a body of memory, right?
[13:23]Because you are, maybe this is not
[13:26]some really astute observation as I see in the subtitle,
[13:29]but it is like all the things your personal body has gone through
[13:32]and here they come and they're written word.
[13:34]Like that must feel like this whole movement
[13:37]of your body keeps the score and all of that
[13:39]is like this is very of the moment.
[13:41]How do you feel you've like does your body
[13:44]and turn it like, I don't know,
[13:46]talk to me about the relationship between your body
[13:48]and all of these traumas and many different ways
[13:50]and how you see it now.
[13:53]Well, again, I do think this treatment I went through
[13:55]for my concussion recovery was so pivotal for me
[13:59]because you know, I feel really strong now
[14:02]and I feel like there's a lot of energy moving through my body
[14:04]and I haven't always felt like that.
[14:06]Like I have not felt like I've sort of been always
[14:09]kind of waiting for what is the next thing
[14:11]because I had really debilitating
[14:12]endometriosis for years and years.
[14:14]There was my spine and so I've never felt like part
[14:18]of my body and felt like there's been my head
[14:21]and my brain which is where I live
[14:22]and then there's this thing that hopefully
[14:24]won't inconvenience me again too soon
[14:26]and we've been very separate
[14:28]and I feel much more now like again,
[14:31]in order to get my brain better, I had to move my body
[14:34]and I had to develop a connection with my body
[14:37]that I hadn't had as much in the past
[14:39]and that's a really kind of exciting turning point for me
[14:44]that we're friends now, you know?
[14:46]And yes, I've been through all of these things
[14:48]but I do feel quite strong.
[14:52]But I do think that, you know, any amount of pain
[14:55]that you have in your life is an opening
[14:57]and opening an invitation to and potentially a lesson
[15:00]in empathy and I think physical pain may be even more so
[15:04]like I do tend to find the more empathetic people
[15:09]and either the ones who've been through the most.
[15:11]So it also feels like a bit of a gift.
[15:13]Like I've been softened by these things.
[15:16]I've been strengthened by them
[15:17]and I've also been softened by them.
[15:18]And I think empathy is always a work in progress with all of us
[15:22]but I do feel like the point of life is connection
[15:26]with other people
[15:27]and I do think the things that have happened
[15:28]we have been portals to that.
[15:30]That's a beautiful way to say that.
[15:32]Strength and softened, that's cool.
[15:35]You also wrote about being a child actor
[15:38]and how many parents, you had some quote.
[15:41]Let me see if I can find it.
[15:42]How, there are some quick to say, oh no,
[15:44]but like my son wants to do that
[15:46]and then they don't think about some of the ramifications
[15:50]of that, oh my gosh, and your mother too.
[15:52]Oh wait, hold on, let me find it.
[15:53]I've often, you said I've often been approached
[15:55]for advice by the parents of child actors
[15:57]as someone who came out of the experience successfully
[16:00]and therefore evidence that it may be a good direction
[16:02]for their own child.
[16:03]As soon as I begin to imply that the reason I came out
[16:05]of the experience without major addiction issues
[16:08]was sheer luck and privilege
[16:09]and that waiting until adulthood might be advisable
[16:11]for any profession or begin to recount some
[16:13]of the more damaging experiences I had as a child.
[16:16]I am met with combativeness, defensiveness,
[16:18]or a turning away, it has always given me a jolt
[16:20]to realize that most parents, that's better,
[16:23]of child actors really don't want to hear the truth
[16:25]from someone who has lived it.
[16:26]Only twice is this not been the case
[16:28]out of dozens of conversations with parents.
[16:30]The exchange usually goes something like this,
[16:32]but he loves it so much, he wants to do it,
[16:35]to which I reply something like yes
[16:37]and lots of kids want to be firefighters or doctors too,
[16:40]but they must wait until they are no longer children
[16:42]to assume the pressures and obligations of adult work.
[16:45]It's something our society made up its mind
[16:47]about a long time ago.
[16:48]Children shouldn't work.
[16:49]Why this principle doesn't apply to an industry,
[16:52]known for its exploitation and self-serving nature,
[16:54]he will nurse me.
[16:58]You're really killing me softly
[16:59]by reading that back to me right now
[17:00]because I happen to have a child who's desperate
[17:02]to be a child.
[17:03]I don't know.
[17:05]I last night I was like, how much longer
[17:07]can I withstand this pressure?
[17:09]I was like, okay, good, thank you for inviting me.
[17:12]I have a lot more empathy for the parents of child actors
[17:18]that I used to because I know what the pressure now feels like,
[17:21]but last night I was given an ultimatum,
[17:22]which was basically because we're resisting
[17:24]getting a dog as well and the last night was like,
[17:28]you have a choice, we can get a dog
[17:30]or I can be a child actor.
[17:32]Which would you choose if you had to choose?
[17:36]Is it the dog or the child like this?
[17:37]Like I guess it's the dog.
[17:39]But yeah, I definitely feel in all seriousness
[17:44]that in general, this is not a great position
[17:48]to put a child in to give them the pressures
[17:51]and obligations of an adult professional life.
[17:53]And now that I've had these conversations with my own kids
[17:56]so much, I've had to articulate it even more
[17:59]than I did in the book.
[18:00]And they were so determined to visit me
[18:03]on set the summer while I was making a film.
[18:05]And the only way we could with COVID rules
[18:07]was if they were background performers.
[18:08]So they kind of got their wish,
[18:10]which is to say they were suddenly on a set.
[18:14]And it was interesting for me
[18:16]because I did have a bunch of kids in the background
[18:18]in a tiny part on this.
[18:21]And I put every molecule of my being
[18:23]into making this a good experience for them.
[18:27]And I think for the most part,
[18:29]they would probably say it was.
[18:31]I haven't reconnected with all the kids yet.
[18:34]But I tried to make it as much of like a summer campus.
[18:36]I could, but the truth is I could not control every aspect
[18:40]of that environment, like even as the filmmaker.
[18:42]And so was it perfect?
[18:44]No.
[18:45]And I think they're probably were moments
[18:47]where they felt pressure.
[18:48]And that's someone who was traumatized
[18:52]by the impact of being a child actor,
[18:54]putting all of their energy into it.
[18:55]And I still couldn't make it what it probably should have been
[18:58]if it was designed around the experience of kids.
[19:01]And I just don't think it's,
[19:03]it's not an environment that's designed for kids.
[19:05]It's an adult professional environment
[19:08]that's designed either to make something creative
[19:10]or to make profit.
[19:11]And a kid's interests are never gonna be the main interest
[19:13]in that environment.
[19:14]And so I don't know, I can't quite figure out
[19:17]why we would put kids in that position.
[19:19]And at its best, it's not great, I think.
[19:22]And at its worst, it's really, really harmful.
[19:25]And kids are exposed to all kinds of things
[19:27]that we would rather protect them from.
[19:28]And they're with adults all day long who have no training
[19:33]or maybe from particular interest
[19:34]in being around children.
[19:35]So it's just sort of a ticking time bomb,
[19:39]I think before a kid has a really hard experience.
[19:43]And even just the pressure alone of 50 to 100 out standing
[19:47]around, making sure you get something right,
[19:49]otherwise you delay their work day.
[19:51]You know, again, that's at its best.
[19:53]I mean, experience I had work stream,
[19:55]but I think at its best, it's still an enormous load
[19:58]to put on the child.
[19:59]Whoa.
[20:00]was the movie, The Summer.
[20:02]So I made a movie called Women Talking,
[20:04]which is an adaptation of Miriam Teade's novel.
[20:07]Awesome.
[20:08]And are you working on another movie now?
[20:10]I'm editing that one as we speak.
[20:13]Exciting.
[20:14]Wow.
[20:15]What do you like to read?
[20:17]Like, you're obviously a great writer,
[20:19]very articulate, you're so thoughtful.
[20:21]So I'm curious about your reading stack.
[20:25]Thank you.
[20:26]I think that both I've loved the most
[20:28]over the last five years.
[20:29]I came to it really late.
[20:30]It was Gilead by Marilyn Robinson,
[20:32]which I've read more times than probably any other book.
[20:37]I love the middle of March.
[20:38]I've been loving Deborah Levby's essays recently.
[20:42]I think they're amazing.
[20:43]Let me think.
[20:45]What else have I loved lately?
[20:47]I'm loving Matrix so much.
[20:50]I learned growth.
[20:51]Yeah.
[20:52]She was on this podcast.
[20:53]Was she?
[20:54]I didn't get that episode.
[20:56]How do I miss that episode?
[20:57]What was that?
[20:58]Mm.
[20:59]I have to look.
[21:01]Oh, my God, I'm excited.
[21:03]She was amazing.
[21:04]Oh, she's just something.
[21:06]I also love Florida.
[21:08]Like, I didn't read Florida.
[21:10]Oh, my God.
[21:12]I know, I have to get good.
[21:13]It was on September 8th, 2021.
[21:16]OK, so I'm like, OK.
[21:18]Yeah, that's a long ago.
[21:20]But anyway, yes.
[21:22]Very cool.
[21:22]Where are you?
[21:23]What part of the country are you at?
[21:25]I'm in New York.
[21:26]OK.
[21:27]Where are you?
[21:28]Are you still in Canada?
[21:29]I'm in Toronto.
[21:30]Yeah.
[21:31]I'm in Toronto.
[21:32]Awesome.
[21:33]My kids had said, for some reason, that's like the number one
[21:34]on the wish list.
[21:35]Well, after China and Japan, because I was like, well,
[21:38]that's kind of far.
[21:39]That's funny.
[21:40]You're like, OK, how about Canada?
[21:42]That's where we should go.
[21:42]Let's go to Canada.
[21:43]I'm like, OK.
[21:44]Sure.
[21:45]That's it.
[21:46]That's it anyway.
[21:47]OK, so with this book, what could happen
[21:51]that you're going to be like, it was all worth it?
[21:55]Or has that already happened at that moment?
[21:57]I love hearing other people's stories.
[22:00]So I think that if people feel that it resonates
[22:04]with some of their stories and I get to hear theirs back,
[22:07]that for me is all I could ever ask for.
[22:10]It happened with one film I made with stories we tell,
[22:12]like my whole release of that.
[22:14]And usually I don't like the release of things.
[22:15]I like doing the things.
[22:16]I don't like the, like dealing with other people's responses,
[22:19]even if they're positive.
[22:20]But I remember the release of that film
[22:22]was like one of the best experiences of my life,
[22:24]but those people would just come up to me
[22:25]and tell me their family histories.
[22:27]And it was amazing.
[22:29]So I would love that.
[22:30]But also I just think, you know,
[22:31]I think some of the things that I write about in this book
[22:34]are really intimate and vulnerable and difficult to talk about.
[22:39]And so I think if it makes anybody, if any of the essays
[22:44]make anyone feel a little bit like it's easier
[22:46]to articulate words around some of their own experiences
[22:49]that might resonate, that that would be a huge, a huge triumph,
[22:53]I think.
[22:54]And I, yeah, I just hope that it's a service in some way.
[22:57]That's so nice.
[22:59]Amazing.
[23:00]And by the way, I couldn't believe you were writing
[23:01]Little Women when this helpful thing happened.
[23:04]Yeah.
[23:05]Greta grew again at a party.
[23:06]I can't believe it.
[23:07]It's like, oh my gosh, she did such a great job though.
[23:10]I have never been around such a good job.
[23:12]My kids love that movie.
[23:14]I do.
[23:15]Yes.
[23:16]All right. Well, thank you.
[23:17]Thank you for this.
[23:17]Thank you so much.
[23:18]I really, really enjoyed it.
[23:19]And yeah, she's really well done.
[23:21]I really appreciate it.
[23:22]Thank you for having me on.
[23:23]My pleasure.
[23:24]Good luck.
[23:25]OK, you too.
[23:26]Bye-bye.
[23:28]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[23:30]Don't have time to read books.
[23:31]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at ZB Owens
[23:34]and at Moms.
[23:35]Don't have time to read books.
[23:37]Also sign up for my newsletter at ZB Owens.com
[23:39]and sign up for my virtual book club
[23:41]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[23:43]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[23:46]for the Sound Editing.
[23:47]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[23:49]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.