Catherine Price, THE POWER OF FUN: How to Feel Alive Again
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[0:41]Katherine Price is the author of The Power of Fun, How to Feel Alive Again.
[0:45]Dubbed the Marie Kondo of Brains by The New York Times,
[0:48]Katherine Price is an award-winning science journalist and speaker
[0:51]and the author of numerous books, including How to Break Up with Your Phone
[0:54]and Vitamania, How Vitaman's Revolutionized the Way We Think About Food.
[0:58]She is also the creator of Screen Life Balance,
[1:01]a resource hub dedicated to helping people scroll less and live more.
[1:04]Her work has appeared in various publications,
[1:06]including The Best American Science Writing, The New York Times,
[1:10]O The Oprah Magazine, Popular Science, Los Angeles Times,
[1:13]San Francisco Chronicle, The Washington Post Magazine's Slate Time,
[1:16]and Men's Journal Among Others.
[1:18]Welcome, Katherine.
[1:19]Thank you so much for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read books
[1:23]to discuss The Power of Fun, How to Feel Alive Again,
[1:26]and you were last on for How to Break Up with Your Fun.
[1:29]Thank you so much for having me, Zippy.
[1:30]This is so fun to do because we get to talk about fun the whole time.
[1:35]You totally convinced me about why this is important.
[1:39]Then you gave us really great actionable advice on how to incorporate in our live with quizzes
[1:44]and got questions.
[1:46]And I don't know.
[1:47]I finished and I was like, okay, I know what I need to do.
[1:50]I know how I'm going to do it.
[1:52]Thank you very much.
[1:53]And now I just hope I do it.
[1:56]That is really wonderful to hear.
[1:58]So tell listeners a little bit about this book and especially what you talked about in the introduction
[2:04]and how it came to be with your daughter and everything.
[2:07]Well, and it's kind of surprising way to me.
[2:10]The Power of Fun is a direct follow up to my last book that you and I spoke about,
[2:14]how to break up with your phone.
[2:16]And the reason there is that I had gone through all these steps to,
[2:19]quote, unquote, break up with my phone, which is, you know, doesn't mean totally dumping it.
[2:22]It's just about creating better boundaries with our devices.
[2:25]And I felt very good about myself.
[2:27]And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I have a healthier relationship.
[2:29]Not perfect.
[2:30]It's still not perfect because I think it's impossible.
[2:32]But it was healthier.
[2:33]But then I realized that I had forgotten something really important,
[2:36]which is that once you create more time for yourself,
[2:40]you're going to end up with a lot more time.
[2:42]And unless you figure out what you want to do with that time,
[2:44]you're going to end up right back on your device.
[2:47]So I ended up having this moment where my husband and I were taking,
[2:50]we're deliberately taking a break from our devices,
[2:53]kind of like a textured bot type thing.
[2:55]And I had this, what should have been like a glorious hour in front of me,
[2:59]where I was sitting in our living room and he was out and our daughter was taking a nap.
[3:03]And I could do whatever I wanted to for a whole hour.
[3:06]And as you know, in early parenthood, that's a pretty glorious opportunity.
[3:10]But I was sitting there and I realized I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do with that time
[3:15]because I got in so used to filling my time with stupid things on my phone,
[3:19]that I didn't know what I wanted to do anymore.
[3:21]And so I really had a bit of a crisis in that moment,
[3:25]because that was not the, I don't know, that went against myself definition
[3:29]as a self-aware kind of interested person.
[3:32]And so I asked myself a question that I had asked people when I was researching how to break up the other phone.
[3:37]And that was what something you always say you want to do,
[3:39]but supposedly don't have time for.
[3:41]And in my case, my answer to that question was,
[3:43]well, I always say I want to learn how to play guitar.
[3:45]Like I have a guitar, but I've never learned how to play it.
[3:48]And I ended up signing up for this guitar class.
[3:50]And I experienced this kind of magical feeling during the class.
[3:54]I was trying to figure out what the best word was to describe it.
[3:57]And the best word that came to mind was fun.
[3:59]And so that's how I got started on this project about writing a book about the power of fun.
[4:03]Who knew I should just pick up the extra guitar my daughter has.
[4:06]And you know, I mean,
[4:08]I think you had a great group of people in the class too.
[4:11]You're all like going for drinks and everything.
[4:12]So lucky you.
[4:13]That was so fun.
[4:14]It was such an interesting experience as it was at this,
[4:16]technically a children's music studio.
[4:17]So it's remember this guy named Mr. John.
[4:19]And what's funny is that because a lot of the people have found the studio through their children,
[4:23]the adults also refer to the head of the studio as Mr. John.
[4:26]We're all old enough to not have to do that.
[4:29]But it was very interesting because I realized it wasn't just about getting a new skill.
[4:33]I think that's something that people often are misled by when they think about fun.
[4:37]And they think, Oh, if I'm going to have fun, I have to just add more activities to my schedule.
[4:41]And we're all already as a mom.
[4:43]So I don't have time to have fun, right?
[4:45]Like we don't have time to add more things to our to do lists.
[4:48]So we feel really overwhelmed and then kind of almost angry about the concept that we should be even trying to prioritize fun.
[4:53]But I realized it wasn't about the skill and it wasn't about the activity per se.
[4:57]It was this feeling that I was getting this buoyant energy.
[5:00]And the important thing that I noticed was that that energy stayed with me through the week.
[5:05]And it ended up giving me more energy to do the other things in my life that were less fun.
[5:10]Like chores or getting my daughter ready for school.
[5:13]Even yesterday, I actually had an experience where I played music with some people and I came home.
[5:18]I had been super grumpy this weekend.
[5:20]I think it was because of a fun deficit honestly because I've been in such restricted mode, but I had an experience of fun yesterday.
[5:27]And I am in such a better mood today.
[5:29]So that was one of the most important takeaways for me was that it seems like yet another to do.
[5:34]but it shouldn't we shouldn't think about fun that way at all.
[5:37]Instead, we should think about it as a gift.
[5:39]We give ourselves that we will be better able to cope with all of the other things that are on our list.
[5:44]It's so true.
[5:45]I was a little concerned because you do have a passage that says don't turn your fun into work.
[5:50]I feel like I did that. So now I don't know what to do.
[5:53]Well, that's more about the feeling of it.
[5:56]I, the point of that is simply that if you start to resent fun, if you start to just feel like, just have fun and feel kind of angry about it, then you know that something's not right.
[6:08]And that's when I want you to back off because it should feel like something light and like a gift to yourself, not like another to do.
[6:15]So if you start feeling that way, chances are you should kind of shift your approach and experiment with different different ideas.
[6:22]So what does the sensation of true fun really do for us? Why is it so important?
[6:28]Well, first of all, the sensation of true fun is really when we feel joyfully alive.
[6:33]And I felt that myself and then I wanted to check that feeling to make sure I just wasn't overreacting because I was like, maybe I have just so starved for fun that I'm having this like life changing experience in my guitar class.
[6:46]Like, yeah, that's nice because if you look up fun in the dictionary, it just says lighthearted pleasure.
[6:50]But meanwhile, I'm like, you know, being moved to tears by the profound experience of this life affirming joy that I'm getting in my guitar class.
[6:56]So I ended up reaching out to, well, recruiting a new group of people off of my screen life balance email list.
[7:03]And I called them the fun squad and I asked people to share with me three experiences from their own lives that they would describe as having been quote unquote so fun.
[7:11]It was very technical. And I did this smack in the middle of like the lockdowns of the pandemic. I mean, it was in summer of 2020. So it was really interesting to ask people kind of awkward, but also interesting to ask people about fun when all of us were feeling pretty fun.
[7:25]And I read through these anecdotes and I noticed that the energy behind them was not unique to me at all. It was a really interesting experience where I'd read through these little stories people share with me one after the other.
[7:39]And I would feel so joyful but also nearly be moved to tears. I often actually did have tears in my eyes because people were just expressing these little moments from their lives where they felt alive.
[7:49]And so human and so connecting, you know, some anecdotal little anecdotes about like going out in high school and squishing mud through my toes with my friend Margaret or standing in the rain with my grandfather as a child deliberately getting soaked, you know, or just running into the ocean barefoot like it was just these small moments.
[8:08]It was how I confirmed that I was not totally off base. And then then realized I needed to come up with a better definition of fun than just lighthearted pleasure because clearly that was not all that was happening here.
[8:19]And the definition I came up with, which I checked with these people to me again, make sure that I was not just totally out on a limb myself, was that these moments of what I call true fun are the confluence of three states, which is playfulness connection and flow.
[8:34]So playfulness, you know, adults like really tense up when you say playfulness. So to clarify, I just mean a lighthearted attitude, not caring too much about the outcome of what you're doing.
[8:44]You know, even I would say like our conversation right now is playful because we're just at least I am enjoying your company.
[8:49]I'm enjoying it too. I'm right.
[8:51]Yes.
[8:52]Yeah. Yeah. So in other words, it doesn't need to be playing games or God forbid like charades or something like that.
[8:57]And then connection, you know, sometimes people described having true fun in moments where they felt truly connected to their physical body or to an activity or to their authentic selves.
[9:09]That was a very common theme is just when we're having fun. We are in touch with our authentic selves, which I think is part of the reason it can feel so powerful.
[9:16]As majority of anecdotes, there also was another person or sometimes a creature like a dog or cat, but some other living creature involved and that was true for introverts in addition to extroverts, which is really interesting.
[9:27]And then flow is the psychological state of getting so wrapped up in your present experience that you lose track of time.
[9:33]So not like losing track of time, bingeing Netflix, but more being actively engaged.
[9:39]So I think all of those states are great on their own, but when you put them together, you get true fun.
[9:44]So to answer your question, there's actually not a lot of research about fun per se.
[9:49]I think because we don't have a good definition of it and also because we typically think of fun as being frivolous.
[9:54]But if you look at it as the confluence of playfulness and connection and flow, it's actually a ton of research.
[10:00]and all those states.
[10:01]And just some of the things they do for us,
[10:02]that they really lower our stress levels,
[10:04]which is incredibly important,
[10:06]both for our mental health,
[10:07]but then also for our physical health.
[10:09]Because when we're chronically stressed,
[10:11]our cortisol levels are high
[10:12]and increase cortisol rates over time
[10:15]are associated with all sorts of negative health things,
[10:17]like heart attack, heart disease stroke,
[10:19]like bad, very bad.
[10:21]And also, I think we radically underestimate
[10:23]the importance of human connection as a health issue.
[10:26]So loneliness and isolation are so bad for us.
[10:29]You know, their health effects are,
[10:31]there's one big study that liken their effects
[10:33]to those of smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
[10:37]Like that's nuts.
[10:38]So anything we can do that brings us closer to other people
[10:41]is going to improve our physical health.
[10:43]You know, most importantly, it feels good.
[10:45]Like we always forget that part,
[10:47]but also just makes you more productive
[10:49]and more creative and happier.
[10:51]So I could go on.
[10:52]Sorry, I just like took a second on the table.
[10:53]No, it's so interesting.
[10:55]I recently interviewed Florence Williams about her,
[10:57]whoa, heartbreak.
[10:59]Did you talk heartbreak?
[11:00]Oh, I haven't, no, no, no, I'm thinking of a difficult.
[11:02]He has the new that coming out,
[11:03]or now it's out by the time this airs,
[11:04]but it's called Heartbreak, a personal and scientific journal
[11:07]and she's a science journalist writing about heartbreak,
[11:09]but we literally just had this conversation about loneliness
[11:12]and how she met with some doctors
[11:14]who could tell by your white blood cells how lonely you are.
[11:18]Oh my gosh, I have to get,
[11:19]I was looking over my shoulder
[11:20]because I have her book, The Nature Fix.
[11:22]Yeah, we want to have a floor on.
[11:24]It's great.
[11:25]It's great.
[11:26]She's really, she's like promo right here, read her books
[11:28]because they're so interesting.
[11:29]She does such a beautiful job, I think,
[11:31]weaving together her personal experience with science.
[11:34]She also wrote a book, I believe, called Breasts, didn't she?
[11:37]I don't, I don't know.
[11:39]I don't remember reading about that.
[11:40]That's a really, I am pretty sure she did
[11:42]and the book breasts, everyone out there, fellow moms is really good.
[11:48]I know she did an audible original breasts unbound, maybe?
[11:52]Yes, so she wrote an original book called Breasts.
[11:54]So obviously, to keep same breasts over there.
[11:56]Keep talking about it.
[11:57]But everyone should read that book, it's so good.
[12:00]I think there should be a panel with you and her
[12:04]and also Eve Rod scheme.
[12:05]Yes, because the three of you,
[12:07]and I was happy to see that you mentioned
[12:09]the unicorn space in the book because the whole time
[12:10]I was like, this is kind of like unicorn space
[12:13]although you guys are coming at it at different ways.
[12:15]And Florence is coming at it a different way
[12:17]but basically you're all trying to help us all live
[12:20]better and more fulfilling happier lives
[12:22]and feel more like connected and grounded
[12:24]and have a life of meaning.
[12:26]And there's all this science in different ways.
[12:28]But anyway, I'm happy to moderate or something.
[12:30]But that was really fun.
[12:31]Done, looks like make that happen.
[12:34]Make that happen, that would be really fun.
[12:36]Because ultimately, the things that you're espousing
[12:40]and them too, right, this is what life is all about.
[12:43]I mean, you have a whole chapter where you're like,
[12:45]okay, we're all gonna die, you know,
[12:47]and you're like, sorry to bring you down
[12:49]in this book about fun, but it's true.
[12:51]And I think about that all the time, right?
[12:53]We all have the set amount of finite time
[12:57]on certain how much, right?
[12:59]But we can guesstimate based on, you know, the max, right?
[13:04]Oh, I just, I just are wearing reading glasses
[13:06]and my dad was like, okay, well, you know,
[13:08]that's the leading indicator that your life is half over.
[13:11]That's the midpoint.
[13:12]He's like, out of all the studies, apparently.
[13:14]And I have nothing to back this up
[13:15]other than he said it's true.
[13:17]But you're dead.
[13:18]You're just with the grain of sauce.
[13:19]Although he doesn't tend to research things very well.
[13:21]when you get reading glasses,
[13:22]that's the best indicator that your life is halfway done.
[13:25]I'm like, okay, so I've got all 90
[13:27]and he's like, well, it's plus or minus five years.
[13:29]So I'm like, okay, I've got 85 to 95.
[13:31]So let's, so I've got like 40 years left on the low end
[13:35]if I'm lucky and I don't get a bike car tomorrow.
[13:37]I mean, that's also pretty funny
[13:38]because like technically to say to your dad,
[13:40]isn't that just generally like we could all say 85
[13:42]to 95 years is probably like, yeah.
[13:45]I know, it's not such,
[13:45]but he's saying some people get glasses earlier.
[13:48]Oh, dear, okay.
[13:49]That would, like if you get glasses at 40,
[13:51]your projected lifespan would actually be 75, yeah, 75 to 85.
[13:56]Okay.
[13:57]If you got glasses at 50, you can push it up again.
[14:00]Okay, all right, have you gotten reading glasses yet?
[14:04]I have not, but I'm just like so myopic
[14:07]that I've just basically been half blind since I was seven.
[14:09]So I'm just, I don't know.
[14:10]I don't know.
[14:11]I might just be that my eyes are slightly getting better
[14:12]at the distance.
[14:13]And in fact, I would need reading glasses,
[14:15]but for the fact that I can't see anything.
[14:17]I don't know.
[14:18]I've had perfect vision my whole life.
[14:20]This has been like slightly traumatic for me
[14:21]to have to like all of a sudden.
[14:23]I'm like, how does everybody else read shampoo bottles?
[14:25]Like, I don't understand.
[14:26]Like literally like in a whole new world here,
[14:28]which I'm not very happy about.
[14:30]I'm gonna write about too.
[14:31]But anyway, also say we are all gonna die.
[14:34]And that is no big secret.
[14:35]And yet we try to push it back and back and not think about it.
[14:38]And then we don't have it factor
[14:40]into our everyday decisions because if you live every day
[14:42]as if you're about to die,
[14:43]then you wouldn't get, you wouldn't be responsible first
[14:45]and you wouldn't like probably you're living
[14:47]and like, you know, you can't go every day eating like five
[14:50]Suzy cakes, marble cakes or whatever.
[14:51]But although that doesn't like fun,
[14:54]although there we got fun.
[14:55]But your whole notion of what do we do with this limited time?
[14:59]How do we fit it in?
[15:01]How can people not think of this as a waste of time?
[15:06]But in fact, the most important time that they could spend.
[15:10]So talk a little bit about that.
[15:12]Yeah, because I think that is the most common
[15:13]misperception about fun is people can roll their eyes
[15:16]and say like, what do you have fun?
[15:17]I mean, seriously, you know,
[15:19]I've got all these other things to do.
[15:20]Or there's all these problems in the world.
[15:22]Like you want me to think about fun.
[15:24]Or isn't that something for just people who are privileged
[15:26]like other people can't have fun?
[15:27]And I think that yes, we need to have our basic needs met
[15:30]in order to think about anything
[15:31]beyond our basic survival.
[15:32]But I think it's really a misperception to think A
[15:35]that there are certain categories of people
[15:36]who can have fun and those who can't have fun.
[15:39]And then B, that it's not possible to be a quote-unquote
[15:42]serious person and also to prioritize fun.
[15:45]And I think that's a really important thing to think about
[15:47]is that far from being a frivolous, fun can help us
[15:51]with all these goals.
[15:52]So first and foremost, as we're talking about,
[15:54]fun will help us enjoy our own lives.
[15:56]And that should be enough.
[15:58]I think there's a really weird thing
[15:59]where especially in America, but elsewhere as well,
[16:02]we don't feel like we have permission to enjoy our own lives.
[16:06]And that's really messed up if you think about it
[16:07]because who is it doing any good for to not enjoy your life?
[16:11]I mean, you're not gonna go jet skiing every day
[16:14]and not take care of your children.
[16:16]I've actually never jet skied.
[16:17]So that's not gonna be a thing for me to work about anyway.
[16:19]But you know, it doesn't do anyone any good if you're suffering.
[16:23]And I think that just to continue with our existential
[16:26]conversation around the subject of fun,
[16:28]one thing I've been thinking about myself over the weekend
[16:30]is this book called, I think it's called
[16:32]the Top Five Regrets of the Dying.
[16:34]And it's written by a woman who works
[16:37]or worked in palliative care.
[16:39]And some of the top things
[16:41]where I wish I hadn't worked so hard.
[16:42]And then one of the last one is
[16:45]I wish I'd given myself permission to be happy, right?
[16:49]So I think that that's really important.
[16:52]But in terms of the other concerns,
[16:53]I think that it's interesting how we just think about things
[16:56]in such a black and white in zero some way.
[16:58]Like if you're caring about fun,
[17:00]then you can't also care about climate change.
[17:02]But you can.
[17:04]And in fact, the more fun you're having,
[17:06]the more energized you'll be to take action
[17:07]on some of the serious things in the world.
[17:10]And perhaps most importantly,
[17:11]the more connected you'll be with other people.
[17:13]So many of our problems these days
[17:14]have to do with political polarization
[17:16]and our inability to see each other as human beings.
[17:18]But when you're having fun with someone,
[17:20]you're connected with them on a human level.
[17:22]You're not thinking about your differences.
[17:24]You're thinking about what brings you together.
[17:26]So in fact, I think that fun can be an important tool
[17:29]to actually solve some problems.
[17:30]And just as an example, one that I got from this book
[17:33]called, Humor Seriously, which is great.
[17:35]And I highly recommend a beginning to these books
[17:37]you're talking about.
[17:38]Oh, yes.
[17:39]So Humor Seriously, it'd be fun to have the authors
[17:41]on the show, the Stanford professors who teach a class
[17:45]about humor in the business school.
[17:47]And they have this example, two examples in their book,
[17:49]but one is of Madeline Albright when she was Secretary of State.
[17:52]And she's at a conference in, it's in Asia, a major conference.
[17:57]And she's trying to negotiate with her Russian counterpart
[18:00]about some policy having to do with Myanmar.
[18:02]So many that's like heavy, right?
[18:04]It's like a big deal, right?
[18:05]America and Russia.
[18:06]And she finds out there's a tradition at this conference
[18:09]where you're supposed to be in a skip before dinner.
[18:11]And someone's like, OK, you have to sing.
[18:15]And she kind of at first was like what?
[18:17]And then anyway, long story short,
[18:19]there ends up being this thing where she teams up
[18:23]with her Russian counterpart who should be her adversary.
[18:26]And they stay up late one night.
[18:28]And the Russians provide the vodka.
[18:30]And they rewrite the lyrics to the West Side Story
[18:33]song, I just met a girl named Maria,
[18:35]so that it is now East West Story.
[18:37]And it's I just met a girl named Madeline Albright.
[18:40]And they perform this at the dinner.
[18:43]Now, you might say that is ridiculous.
[18:46]What the hell are they doing?
[18:47]They're supposed to be there negotiating international policy.
[18:50]They're supposed to be adversaries.
[18:51]Like what this is a waste of money that should be ashamed.
[18:54]No, in fact, what happened is they connected on a human level,
[18:57]they actually started a friendship.
[18:59]They still had huge issues with each other.
[19:01]They were not, you know, going to agree on everything.
[19:04]But she said it completely changed the tenor of their negotiations
[19:07]because from that point forward,
[19:08]they were able to connect as human beings.
[19:10]So it actually helped international diplomacy.
[19:12]And I think that's a really important example to keep in mind.
[19:15]And, you know, in the book, they also,
[19:16]they include some examples from George W. Bush's cabinet as well
[19:20]where there was frequently this use of humor and levity
[19:22]and fun that from the outside might seem crazy.
[19:25]Like apparently they, they surround wrapped Karl Rove's car.
[19:28]But they made them feel this sense of camaraderie.
[19:33]All this is to say that I think we think about fun all wrong.
[19:36]We think about it as something that should be at the bottom of our priority list.
[19:39]Suddenly, we only get to have if everything else in life is going right.
[19:43]Where in fact, it's not the result of human flourishing.
[19:46]It's actually a cause.
[19:48]Mm-hmm, I love that.
[19:50]I'm thinking in my head, like if I were the president,
[19:52]I could, we could, you know, maybe we should run on this platform, you and me.
[19:56]On the ticket for an international fund day, right?
[20:00]Tuesday, whatever, Sunday, and then everybody would have to go just have fun all day with
[20:04]people that they didn't know very well. And what would happen if we all did that once
[20:07]a year, once a month?
[20:08]I mean, yes, they're actually in the UK. There is something called the Minister of loneliness,
[20:14]which is so Harry Potter sounding. I knew that for some reason, but yes, it put it in
[20:19]my book, but uh, maybe that's how I knew it. That's funny. You know, when I was laughing
[20:24]to myself, because I was like, what does that person's business cards look like, right?
[20:27]Why don't we have a minister of fun? Totally. I actually came up with an idea this
[20:32]weekend that I'm really excited about that. If anyone else out there is interested in trying
[20:35]this, because I was trying to figure out and I'm trying to figure out more and more ways
[20:39]to have fun in the middle of a global pandemic, and also in the middle of winter, just kind
[20:44]of a downtime. And I came up with this idea that I want to try going forward, which is that
[20:50]for other friends, sorry, let me back up. I feel like so many of our interactions as parents
[20:54]involved the parents standing around watching kids have fun. And then when you try to do
[20:59]something with other parents and the kids are there, it's just not really that fun for the grown-ups
[21:04]a lot of time. It's like we're constantly getting interrupted. And even though you love your kids
[21:08]and blah blah, you're kind of like, shut up, right? That ain't realized. I at least am a freelancer
[21:14]with a flexible schedule. And I also was thinking about how one of the common themes that came
[21:18]up when I asked people about their experiences of fun was rebellion. This feeling of playful
[21:24]doing things that were slightly deviant. I was thinking, what if, and then also I was trying to make
[21:30]plans with some friends to see each other, but they have three kids. They're all under five,
[21:36]really challenging. Then we came up with this realization that at the moment, all of our schedules
[21:40]are relatively flexible with like working from home and our chosen careers. So instead of trying to
[21:45]find a way to see each other in an evening, why don't we just see each other on a Wednesday
[21:50]morning? Why don't we just have a coffee date for adults? Woo, that's what I'm saying is,
[21:57]it does something. I am now owning the fact that I don't really like the nighttime. I don't like
[22:02]to do my house. I don't like the dark. I don't like to drive in the dark. I don't like to be outside
[22:06]in the dark. I don't know. I think I have like childhood issues. I don't know what my problem is,
[22:09]but I'm like, I would much rather, that's why a lot of time when I have salons here, whatever, it's
[22:13]at 11.30. I'm at my best at breakfast and I just go downhill all day. It's so funny. I can't do
[22:20]a podcast. When I have to do these things at seven eight at night, I'm like, okay, but I'm going to be
[22:25]either so tired. I'm not making any sense or I don't know. Right, exactly. So we made this plan and
[22:32]I realized I'm so looking forward to Wednesday morning because it feels so deviant in a way to be like,
[22:36]oh, I'm not just going to sit in front of my email inbox at 8.30 in the morning. I'm going to
[22:41]drop my daughter off from my husband, drop it off. And then we're going to come back and we're
[22:44]going to hang out and have grown up time in the middle of a work day. And then I was thinking,
[22:49]why don't I just do that regularly and call it like fun Fridays and have a once a month open invite
[22:55]for any friends who have a flexible schedule who want to have a coffee break and just come over
[23:00]and have like a bit of adult time in the middle of a weekday morning. And anyway, I'm really excited
[23:05]about it. Actually do this. Catherine, I do. Yeah. Really? People have fun Friday morning. People
[23:11]actually see friends were coffee at lunch during the day. Yeah, more sippy. I'll tell you my,
[23:17]one of the most fun days I've had in the last like 10 years probably was when a fellow mom,
[23:24]this is at a school, my kids don't even go to anymore, but she was turning 50 and she was older
[23:29]than me. Obviously she's or me. Yeah, she's anyway, it doesn't matter. She was turning 50 and she
[23:33]said what I really want is to go to the movies with a bunch of girlfriends. And so we went to like
[23:37]a 10 o'clock showing of best and she bought us all disposable like wine cups and got us all the
[23:46]biggest candy from the store. And we sat there and laughed so hard. And we'd left it was like
[23:53]12 30. You know, yeah, that's a best day. That's a perfect example. Oh, sorry, the next
[23:59]time I'm like, oh, I'm too busy. I can't go to your birthday this year. Now I feel terrible about
[24:03]it. But anyway, it was not interesting because it's like, Oh, I'm too busy. I can't go to your birthday
[24:07]even though, as you just told me that story, you totally lit up and said it was one of the most fun
[24:11]times you've had in the past 10 years, right? Like I think we do that too often to ourselves,
[24:15]even if we're intellectually aware, that was super fun. Here's an opportunity to do exactly the
[24:20]same thing. And you're like, yeah. No, it's not that I, I mean, I had stuff. I had like things
[24:27]planned. I would have had to cancel all these things and, you know, work stuff. I don't know.
[24:31]I know. No, I know. I know. It's it's hard. I'm also just laughing at the fact that apparently
[24:36]I'm so starved for, you know, human contact in the pandemic. I'm like, no, guys, we could get together
[24:42]and drink a hot. Let's call maybe coffee. We could have what would we call it? A coffee date. Yes,
[24:48]a coffee date. I can't do it at school. When I had more of a life, I used to be able to do that
[24:53]occasionally. In fact, that's what we do. Like our school has class coffees like for each grade
[24:59]once a year, which doesn't feel naughty, though. And I didn't go too naughty. I didn't
[25:04]even go. Oh, no. I know. I know. I know. I know. I'm standing less and less fun. I'm not making
[25:09]any time for fun. That's what I'm like. Sure. I liked your micro dosing section too, because I'm like,
[25:13]okay, I don't need to do this for a long time. But I think that's also like a good example,
[25:18]right? If the school, I do try to drag me with like, if my daughter's school does stuff like that,
[25:23]I do try to get myself to do it because I feel like she's only in first grade. We haven't met
[25:27]any of the other parents because of the pandemic. So I'm glad I did. But that's an example
[25:32]where, to me, it feels like a to do. If it's like, okay, I've got on my schedule that I have to go,
[25:36]and I'm going to make small talk with parents and hope that I find somebody that I gel with,
[25:42]and then I can have a conversation. And often that does happen, but it feels like a little bit of
[25:46]a hurdle to do that. Whereas to me, at least if I add this element of rebellion where I'm inviting
[25:51]people, I already know who are friends who I really do love seeing, but I don't have many opportunities
[25:57]to just see as grownups without our families involved. Like that feels fun to me. So I think it
[26:02]might differ by person, but there's like, it's interesting to think about it where it's exactly
[26:07]the same activity, although we might have Irish coffee on Wednesday at 10 o'clock in the morning.
[26:12]I never actually even had Irish coffee. I might even hate it, but the idea feels so naughty. I
[26:16]just love it. Right. So I think it's like interesting to think about how the exact same activity
[26:22]in a different context feels very different. Yes. Very true. Interesting. All right. I'm
[26:29]getting all sorts of ideas on how to have more fun and why it's so important. You really need
[26:35]to block it off in your calendar, though. I mean, I feel like I just don't leave enough time.
[26:38]Right. To do it. Right. Like, oh, I, you know, well, that's that's the other thing. So I'm doing
[26:44]a fun intervention right now, which is going to be a rolling basis. So people can still join
[26:48]join it if they want to at a screenlife balance.com. But it's the first step of that, as you know,
[26:54]I've got this acronym in my book, Spark, and the SS for Make Space. And that's for exactly
[26:59]the reason you just said is that you do need to clear out some things in order to have
[27:04]mental and emotional space to even think about this. Because it will feel overwhelming and you
[27:09]will feel it's so ironic. You will feel resentful towards fun or fun. Right. If you don't have
[27:15]a bit of space and there's a number of ways to I think prioritize doing that. One is to create
[27:21]better boundaries with your devices because one of the primary sources of distraction and
[27:25]interruption in our lives right now is the constant dinghy from our phones. Actually, just yesterday
[27:31]was thinking, I don't want to call them notifications anymore. I want to call them interruptions
[27:34]because that's what is happening. So that's one thing. Then, as you mentioned, I wrote a bunch
[27:40]about Yiv Radsky's book Fair Play in my book because she who's, and he was amazing. I'm
[27:46]really happy. I've gotten to know her personally since her book came out. Her new book came out,
[27:50]find your unicorn space. But in her book Fair Play, she writes all about how do you actually
[27:56]identify all the emotional labor and the work that goes into running a household that's not
[28:02]often acknowledged and therefore it's not shared equitably. And that's another really crucial way
[28:09]to make space for fun is to really talk with your partner whoever you're running a household with
[28:14]about everything that goes into it and make sure it feels fair because if someone's carrying
[28:18]resentment, then they're not going to have much fun themselves. And then also, they're going to
[28:22]feel resentful towards their partner for having fun. That's not what we want. Ideally, you want
[28:26]both people to be having enough opportunities for fun either on their own or together,
[28:31]that they're not resentful about the other person getting to have a bit of that. So there's a lot
[28:36]of ways in which we can and should make space for fun. Yeah, that I think is the important first step.
[28:43]I'll see what's happened is like he said, we have connection and meaning and flow because I've
[28:49]already gone over our time and didn't even realize it because I love talking about it. I have no idea
[28:53]what time. Well, I wish you had to New York so I could join your Irish coffee date, although I
[28:58]probably would say no because I'm too busy and then, but anyway, but I want to go and I would have
[29:02]fun. So anyway, well, you know what? Let's use it as a metaphor for whatever Irish coffee dates
[29:07]prevent them, present themselves to you next just or bad moms. I mean, that just sounds very
[29:14]fun. Like that is so many elements of just great. I wish I maybe I'll do that again. So anyway,
[29:20]I maybe I'll organize a big screening or something. I don't know. Anyway, I gotta go. You gotta go
[29:25]bye. This is really fun. Exactly what we're saying. And I'm going to come back to you about doing
[29:30]a panel because I really want to hear all three of you together. I would love to do that. And I
[29:34]love both of them even Florence are fantastic. So that would be just such a treat. So thank you.
[29:39]Thank you for all you do to bring writers together and support writers and just spread writing
[29:44]etc. etc. It's so appreciated. It's fun for me. Okay, bye gathered. Take care.
[29:53]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. Don't
[29:56]forget to follow me on Instagram at zebi Owens and at
[30:00]Moms don't have time to read books.
[30:01]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibbowens.com
[30:04]and sign up for my virtual book club
[30:06]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[30:08]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Texturesound
[30:11]for the Sound Editing.
[30:12]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[30:14]for providing this fantastic intro and outro music.