Rachel Barenbaum, ATOMIC ANNA
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[2:29]Rachel Baronbaum is the author of Atomic Anna, an novel.
[2:32]Her debut novel, Abandon the Stars, was named in New York Times Summer Reading Selection, and a Barnes and Noble Discover Great New Writer selection.
[2:40]It was also a Boston Globe Bestseller.
[2:42]Rachel is a prolific writer and reviewer whose work has appeared in the L.A. Review of Books, the Tel Aviv Review of Books,
[2:49]Let Have, and Dead Darlings.
[2:51]She is an honorary research associate at the Hadasa Brandeis Institute at Brandeis University, and is a graduate of Grub Street's novel incubator.
[2:59]She is the founder of debut spotlight, and the debut editor at a mighty blaze.
[3:04]In a former life, she was a hedge fund manager and a spin instructor.
[3:08]She has degrees from Harvard and business, and literature, and philosophy she lives in Brooklyn, Massachusetts.
[3:13]Welcome, Rachel.
[3:15]Thanks for coming back on mom's.
[3:16]Don't have time to read books to discuss Atomic Anna.
[3:19]And I was actually just looking at a bend in the stars, or is it?
[3:22]Anyway, I was like, I'll just hold it up at the same time, but I didn't.
[3:25]But anyway, it's right behind me.
[3:26]I love talking to you about that book, and I'm excited to talk to you about this book.
[3:30]Thank you, Zippy.
[3:31]Thanks so much for having me back.
[3:32]I'm a huge fan.
[3:33]You know that.
[3:34]I'm a huge fan of yours.
[3:35]So there you go.
[3:36]There you go.
[3:37]Okay.
[3:38]Tell listeners what Atomic Anna is about, please.
[3:42]And how did you come up with the idea for this book?
[3:46]So Atomic Anna is the story of three generations of women from one family who work together and build a time machine to stop Chernobyl.
[3:54]That's the surface.
[3:55]But really what it's about is healing their family and going back to find a way forward.
[4:01]Very cool.
[4:02]Okay.
[4:03]The time machine element of the story.
[4:05]Yeah.
[4:06]Yeah.
[4:07]It's like back to the future sort of, you know, Chernobyl style, if you will.
[4:12]Yeah.
[4:13]And how did you come up with this?
[4:14]How did you keep it all straight when people were in which time zone?
[4:18]Then you had like different nicknames for people when they would go back and forth and Molly and
[4:23]Manya.
[4:24]Manya.
[4:25]Manya.
[4:26]Manya.
[4:27]Manya.
[4:28]Manya.
[4:29]And even the idea that someone could travel through space and see their child and granddaughter,
[4:33]and then like have to leave.
[4:35]Oh my gosh.
[4:36]Anyway, we're like explain.
[4:37]Please.
[4:38]I know.
[4:39]Okay.
[4:40]So there are a lot of questions in there.
[4:41]So I think I'll start.
[4:42]No, it's great.
[4:43]I love in the next half an hour answering them.
[4:44]That's fine.
[4:45]I love it.
[4:46]I don't because it means that you read it so carefully and I really appreciate it.
[4:49]So I guess the first question that I love to talk about is where the idea came from.
[4:53]So Chernobyl itself, the disaster happened when I was little.
[4:56]And yet I remember so clearly the moment that I was standing in front of the television.
[5:01]Right.
[5:02]That's how we got news then.
[5:04]I remember those days.
[5:06]Yeah.
[5:07]Exactly.
[5:08]So I just remember standing there looking at these pictures and hearing these stories.
[5:11]And it just it cut so deep.
[5:13]I was so upset.
[5:14]Even though I was little.
[5:15]So I've always sort of watched it from the side.
[5:17]And then at the 30th anniversary, lots of magazines, newspapers, right, news outlets.
[5:22]We're doing all kinds of retrospectives and looking back and where is Chernobyl today in Pripyat,
[5:27]the close city where people live to work to Chernobyl.
[5:30]And so that sort of just got into my brain.
[5:32]And I was thinking about that.
[5:33]And at the same time, I've always been obsessed with this question of time.
[5:37]What is time from bend in the stars.
[5:39]I'm the same obsession.
[5:41]Right.
[5:42]It's always there.
[5:43]It's a construct that we've invented.
[5:44]And Einstein very famously has said there's no difference between the past, the present and the future.
[5:49]So all that sort of jumbles together with back to the future.
[5:53]Right.
[5:54]That came out just a year before Chernobyl happened.
[5:57]And I don't know.
[5:58]I spit out atomic Anna.
[6:00]It just came to me.
[6:01]But although I'm spending a lot of time talking about Chernobyl now.
[6:04]And like, right.
[6:05]I talked about it when I pitch, give the log line.
[6:07]It's really only a few pages of the book.
[6:09]Because what it's really about is the question of if we can go back and change time.
[6:14]Should we.
[6:15]Should we do that.
[6:16]Right.
[6:17]That is a moral ethical question.
[6:18]And I talk about a time machine being the worst, you know, cruelest weapon ever built.
[6:23]right.
[6:24]Because nobody would even know if you've gone back and changed time and erased lives.
[6:28]So it's really about this question of should we.
[6:30]And then regret.
[6:31]Because you only think about changing the past because of regret.
[6:34]And you do that because you want to heal something in the future.
[6:37]So that's really what it's about.
[6:38]And what I really spent my time, you know, thinking about and working through and writing.
[6:43]So there is this really fun, you know, time travel and Chernobyl.
[6:46]Well, Chernobyl's not fun, but time travel element.
[6:49]But really the book is much heavier.
[6:51]And the sections are much more about how do you heal mother daughter relationship.
[6:56]You know, how do you find love and how do you find that future that you want.
[7:00]Well, there is also this moral question that you posed, which is.
[7:05]Should you save many lives or should you do what your daughter needs from you right in the moment.
[7:12]And how do you balance those.
[7:14]And what's more important. And like, how do you prioritize.
[7:18]The life that's sort of dependent on you versus the ones you are indirectly responsible for.
[7:23]What do you do in a scenario like that?
[7:25]Yeah.
[7:26]Yeah.
[7:27]I mean, I wrestle with that a lot, you know, thinking about that.
[7:29]I think that I wish we talked about it more because I think it is a real dilemma.
[7:32]Even when we're here in COVID, right, two years in.
[7:35]And we're talking about, you know, the benefit or the good that, you know, I can provide for my one child by doing X versus.
[7:42]what can we do for the greater good of why this is a bigger question.
[7:46]Do you do you save your immediate family versus, you know, millions of people.
[7:51]So my character struggles with that in terms of does she save her granddaughter and her daughter versus all the people who are at Chernobyl.
[7:58]And I pose that question.
[7:59]So I'm so glad you picked that up because I think it is a really important question.
[8:04]There is no right answer, of course.
[8:07]But it is something I think that we think we should think more about in terms of what we do every day.
[8:13]I mean, even on a smaller scale, right, I have twins.
[8:16]And you walk into the room when they're babies.
[8:18]And if both of them are crying, it's like, which one do you pick up first?
[8:22]Right.
[8:23]How do you judge which one needs you more?
[8:25]Because you physically can't like scoop them together, right.
[8:28]So I think that's on a smaller scale.
[8:31]The same question of which need do you tend to first.
[8:33]And it's, it's very hard.
[8:36]I, as a fellow mom of twins relate completely.
[8:40]And I think I usually just pick up the one screaming louder, which is probably the wrong answer.
[8:44]But I guess it's like what need seems even more pressing.
[8:48]Right.
[8:49]Right.
[8:50]And then sometimes you might look back or I do.
[8:51]And it's like, oh, I should have gotten the other one.
[8:53]Because actually the other one was really hurt.
[8:55]Yeah.
[8:56]And so again, there's that idea of regret.
[8:58]I think it's just natural for us to always think about, you know, relive what we had done and think about how could we change that.
[9:04]And that's really what my characters are struggling with.
[9:07]How could they have done something better and different in the past in order to make a better future?
[9:12]I also love how you give women so much agency, right.
[9:15]That there weren't comic books necessarily with women at the center of the story.
[9:19]And here comes Anna making this whole sort of marvel creatures line with atomic Anna as the superstar.
[9:25]And how that is the way that she finds to really exert control over some uncontrollable universe around her.
[9:32]So talk about about that.
[9:34]Yes.
[9:35]So one of the main characters sort of the middle generation is Molly and America.
[9:39]Her name is Molly.
[9:40]She was born in the Soviet Union as Manya.
[9:42]So there we go to the dual names.
[9:44]But she becomes a comic book artist.
[9:46]And I love writing strong women characters and folks with women at the center.
[9:51]Because that's what I love to read.
[9:53]I love to be around, right.
[9:55]I love strong women.
[9:56]So that's what I write.
[9:57]And you know, when I look around for things.
[9:59]and things.
[10:00]for my characters to do, I love comic books.
[10:02]And the comic book world is so deeply male.
[10:06]And there's this one historian, Trina Robbins.
[10:09]She was also a comic book artist.
[10:11]She's sort of the mother of, I guess, comic books
[10:14]and the one who's done the most work
[10:16]on researching women in comics.
[10:18]And I've spoken to her and been in touch with her.
[10:20]And traditionally comics show women
[10:22]who are being saved by men,
[10:24]they're being thrown into refrigerators.
[10:26]I mean, I don't know where that comes from.
[10:29]But that seems to be a common show
[10:31]or they're fighting over men as the center.
[10:34]And so when I wrote it to Tom McAna,
[10:35]and I really dug into the comic book world for Molly,
[10:38]my character, who expresses herself through these comics,
[10:42]I really tried to break that mold
[10:44]and create these characters who were the kind of women
[10:46]that I wanted to see and that I think they wanted to be.
[10:50]And in terms of why she's a comic book artist,
[10:54]what I really wanted to show is
[10:55]so I have the first generation as Anna.
[10:57]And she is a scientist.
[10:59]And then I have, who actually I have her engineering
[11:02]and designing Chernobyl itself
[11:04]and the first atomic bomb for the Soviet Union.
[11:07]And then I have Molly, the artist.
[11:08]And then I have Molly's daughter, Reza,
[11:11]who is another scientist more on the math side,
[11:13]more of a physicist.
[11:14]And the three of them come together,
[11:16]but they're all three brilliant,
[11:18]but I show that they see the world in different ways.
[11:20]You can be brilliant as an artist
[11:22]because you see the way that light interacts
[11:25]or circles come together to form shapes
[11:27]versus if you're a mathematician,
[11:29]you see that in terms of numbers
[11:31]and define it with numbers versus colors.
[11:33]And so I really spend a lot of time focusing on
[11:36]those parts of the characters.
[11:38]Cause I love that idea that we all see the world so differently.
[11:41]And so that's why I tried to put that into the book.
[11:44]And yet you have to come together
[11:46]and like have a normal conversation.
[11:47]Right, I feel like this happens at every table
[11:49]with like a mom and a grandmother and a granddaughter
[11:52]and you're like, what?
[11:54]Like this is how you did things.
[11:55]This is like what?
[11:56]You know, yes, it says that my characters
[12:00]spend a lot of time fighting, right?
[12:01]Cause Molly's parents don't want her to be an artist.
[12:04]They want her doing math.
[12:05]And she's like, but I don't see the world that way.
[12:07]And then she doesn't want her daughter,
[12:09]Reza doing math because she thinks that's a waste
[12:12]and she hated having to do math.
[12:14]So I love those dynamics.
[12:16]And I love putting them in the same room and fighting
[12:19]cause I think that's so real, right?
[12:22]And how do you deal with that?
[12:23]And you have this whole inherited trauma situation, right?
[12:28]Where one of them, which characters sleep with their boots
[12:31]on because they're convinced that like
[12:33]programs are coming to America.
[12:35]And they don't want to celebrate.
[12:37]They didn't used to be able to celebrate Shabbat openly.
[12:39]And so now here they are in America.
[12:41]And finally, they're like bringing out the Holland
[12:43]lighting the candles.
[12:44]And it's almost like they're taking all of this Jewish history
[12:48]and persecution for religion and nationality
[12:51]and all of this and then trying to make sense of it
[12:54]through the new generations, which I also found fascinating.
[12:57]Yeah, I mean, really, I think trauma is inherited
[13:00]and passed down, right?
[13:01]I mean, I can think of things that my grandparents did
[13:04]that maybe sound crazy, but they're definitely still
[13:07]in my head, right?
[13:08]Like always having a passport ready to go
[13:10]and enough money in order to pay for ticket
[13:13]out of wherever you are, right?
[13:14]That was like ingrained in me for my entire life.
[13:17]And so that is inherited from two generations
[13:21]ago and yet we still talk about it in the family.
[13:24]And so I do have that in the book.
[13:26]Anna is the character of the first time we meet her.
[13:28]She's sleeping with her boots on because she's so terrified
[13:31]that she's going to have to run and she wears them
[13:33]her whole life.
[13:34]She won't take her boots off when she's sleeping.
[13:36]And it's just a, you know, a detail to bring out this idea
[13:39]that we don't really escape that past.
[13:42]But also I wanted my characters to find a way
[13:44]to move forward with it, right?
[13:46]So that her daughter and her granddaughter
[13:48]are saying to her, you could take your boots off.
[13:51]Like we could move forward, right?
[13:53]I acknowledge that you're still sleeping with them.
[13:55]But how about we move forward?
[13:57]And I think it does take a few generations
[14:00]to really push past and see where that, you know,
[14:03]where that can take you totally.
[14:06]This is so cinematic, right?
[14:08]I could just see it all unfolding.
[14:10]Have you started with the optioning process?
[14:13]Do you have any news or anything you can share
[14:15]because I feel like this is destined for screen adaptation?
[14:19]Thank you, thank you for saying that.
[14:21]It's like a dream, right?
[14:23]So if you know anyone or listeners,
[14:25]you know anyone, let me know.
[14:27]But I am working with WME.
[14:28]I have two film agents and it is beginning to make the rounds.
[14:32]So fingers crossed.
[14:34]We'll see what happens.
[14:35]I have very high hopes because it literally felt like,
[14:38]like I could just see it.
[14:39]It's almost like not the hunt for red October
[14:42]because I haven't seen that in probably 30 years or something.
[14:44]But it just makes me feel maybe the red or something.
[14:47]Here I cover that in Russia and I don't know something.
[14:51]So yeah, I love that you say that because in my head
[14:54]as I'm writing books, I see them, right?
[14:56]I see every scene like a movie.
[14:59]And I see every character and I know them.
[15:02]And I can describe them because I see it that way.
[15:04]So I'm so excited when readers say like it felt like a movie
[15:09]because I feel like then I was able to translate
[15:11]all these crazy ideas in my head, right?
[15:13]onto the page and to transmit them to you.
[15:16]So thank you.
[15:17]I'm glad you saw my scene.
[15:19]No problem.
[15:20]How did you deal with like, did you outline this whole progression?
[15:25]It seemed, it was complicated too.
[15:27]And a good, I mean, in a good, interesting way.
[15:29]But in a way where I was thinking like,
[15:31]how was you keeping all of this straight?
[15:32]Like this is a lot of interactions and twists and turns
[15:35]and all of that.
[15:36]So how do you set out to do it?
[15:38]How much did you know about the plot when you started it?
[15:42]Yeah, so this is a tough question to answer
[15:46]because the book started in one way, right?
[15:48]And I had it sort of outlined,
[15:50]but then it took on so many different iterations.
[15:53]So actually one of the very last scenes that I write
[15:56]where Anna goes back in time to the moment when her mom
[16:00]is arrested, she'd been protesting during their Russian
[16:03]revolution was one of the very first scenes that I ever wrote.
[16:06]And I thought that was where the book was going to start,
[16:08]actually.
[16:09]So I guess it's not a spoiler to say it is now one
[16:12]of the very last parts of the book.
[16:14]But it has just changed around so much.
[16:16]And when you're doing time travel, you can do that, right?
[16:18]You can show people around.
[16:20]So I started in finance, so I really love Excel.
[16:24]And spend a lot of time in Excel.
[16:26]So I have these Excel spreadsheets with character, date,
[16:31]event, right, and emotions, sort of my columns.
[16:34]And I moved them around a lot.
[16:36]It was very complicated getting wrapping my head around
[16:40]sort of the character growth as you go through time.
[16:43]And sometimes I had to write it as a straight arrow.
[16:47]And then I could break up the chapters
[16:48]and put them back into the pieces.
[16:52]So that was tough.
[16:53]I had a brilliant, brilliant editor,
[16:55]Sima Mahani and at Grand Central,
[16:57]who was very good at helping me keep track of where we were.
[17:01]And I think actually the hardest part was each of the chapter
[17:05]hadings starts with, you know, it will give you the time,
[17:08]like 11 months until Mahli dies on Mount Aragots.
[17:11]So you know from day, the very first page
[17:14]that this is the event the whole book is leading up to.
[17:16]And I actually struggled a lot with how to communicate that.
[17:19]Like at first, my chapters were, you know,
[17:22]11 months, three days, 56 hours, you know, 23 hours and 16 seconds.
[17:27]Right, I was like trying to calculate down to the second,
[17:31]the time until Mahli died.
[17:33]And it was just getting too complicated.
[17:35]So really, we just sort of shaved that down,
[17:38]shaved that down, made it easier and easier and just said,
[17:40]you know, 11 months, that's good enough until Mahli dies.
[17:44]Well, okay, if you could go back in time, where would you land?
[17:50]You know, people ask this a lot.
[17:52]And I have to say that I really, I don't want to go back.
[17:55]I can't ask any questions that people ask a lot.
[17:57]I'm sorry, I feel like, oh, you're not.
[17:59]Thank you.
[18:00]No, no, I mean, okay, it's a good question
[18:02]because I think we ask ourselves that all the time.
[18:04]But and I've obviously thought about it a lot.
[18:07]And my answers, I don't want to go back.
[18:09]I'm happy with my decisions,
[18:11]sure, there are things I regret,
[18:12]there are things I wish I had done better.
[18:14]But like my characters, I have come to the point in life
[18:18]where, you know, I think it's time to go forward
[18:21]and to say, I'm sorry if I need to say I'm sorry
[18:24]to change what I need to change and just keep going.
[18:28]So that's where I am.
[18:30]It took a long time to get there, by the way.
[18:32]That's right.
[18:35]I always, I used to wish that I lived in the time
[18:38]where like very like voluptuous sort of heavier women
[18:43]that was like praised, right?
[18:45]Like in the Rubens, I don't know.
[18:47]Back in the, I don't even know when that was 1800s.
[18:50]I was 1700s or that was like, you know, as opposed to,
[18:54]anyway, so I used to wish that I don't wish that anymore.
[18:57]Then I used to wish that I love that image of you
[18:59]when I'm painting, you know, right?
[19:01]Yeah, exactly.
[19:02]And that's not horrifying anybody by what I look like.
[19:05]And I also used to want to go back to like the 1950s
[19:09]because I really love a line skirts.
[19:11]And I feel like that would make my portrait
[19:14]really easy.
[19:15]Like I love all those outfits, right?
[19:17]This like button down like shirt dresses
[19:20]and, you know, maybe a little apron around my waist
[19:23]or something, just swishing around the kitchen.
[19:25]Like I feel like I would have done well back then
[19:27]without so much stimulation, you know?
[19:29]Like just read and, you know, do whatever, right?
[19:32]And, you know, pretend I'm like,
[19:34]I'm a bomb-backer, somebody.
[19:36]I hear you, I know, but then the problem is on my head,
[19:39]like I'll start to think, you know, I'll be like,
[19:41]yes, but that's only a flash second.
[19:43]Like the reality is, right?
[19:45]I wouldn't be able to work or I wouldn't be able to, right?
[19:48]Do anything or I don't know.
[19:50]Then I get caught up in my head
[19:51]and I'm always like, okay, I'm okay here.
[19:53]I know, I'm happy to be my age right now.
[19:57]Yes, yes, and it's hard.
[19:59]It is.
[20:00]It's hard, right?
[20:00]Because you think you can always look at other lives
[20:03]even in present day.
[20:04]I mean, wouldn't it be easier if I just did this, right?
[20:07]Or if I just did that, but then that it takes that work
[20:11]and I think it's worth it to say.
[20:12]But I am what I am and I have to take myself
[20:16]for who I am and who I've become and my decisions
[20:19]for better or for worse.
[20:21]So I just keep reminding myself that.
[20:24]So not only are you whipping out these very like dense
[20:29]in a good way, you know, plot, intensive, awesome,
[20:33]multi-time line books.
[20:36]But you're constantly interviewing authors
[20:38]and lifting them up and all of that too.
[20:40]So tell me about that aspect of your life.
[20:43]Yes, thank you.
[20:45]So like you, I love writers, right?
[20:48]I cannot get enough of talking to them,
[20:50]asking them for advice, hearing about their new books.
[20:53]And yeah, so I interviewed them.
[20:54]I started this podcast, Davey Spotlight,
[20:57]particularly to focus on Davey authors
[20:59]because there's so much energy in a debut, right?
[21:03]And sometimes I feel like I talk to authors
[21:05]who are on their sixth or seventh book
[21:06]and they're a little more jaded, you know,
[21:09]and I get it and they've earned their stripes
[21:11]and, you know, they know a lot.
[21:13]But the Davey authors, you know,
[21:14]it's also that struggle to get published.
[21:17]What did it take today is so different
[21:20]even from when I published my first book,
[21:21]which was only 2019, right?
[21:23]It's not that far long ago.
[21:24]So I love it.
[21:26]And I just love, you know,
[21:27]being a part of the whole book community
[21:29]and meeting all these authors and reading and reading
[21:33]and reading.
[21:34]I feel like the best way to learn how to write
[21:36]and to write better books is just to read everything
[21:38]you can from all over the world, right?
[21:41]Like all all over.
[21:42]And it's just, it's amazing.
[21:45]It's funny when you were talking about debut
[21:47]versus more established authors.
[21:48]It's just, it's so similar to first-time moms,
[21:51]versus moms of multiple kids, right?
[21:53]The first-time mom needs all this support
[21:55]and it takes a lot to get there and all this anxiety
[21:58]and you're not sure what's gonna happen.
[22:00]And then by the time you get to like your fourth kid,
[22:02]you're like, okay, I got it.
[22:04]I know what I need to do and not that each one
[22:07]isn't exciting and amazing and unique, right?
[22:09]Just like it, but the way you come at it
[22:12]is a little bit different.
[22:13]And of course, you keep getting better
[22:15]the more experience you have in any, in any area.
[22:18]So yeah, you get better,
[22:19]but also sometimes I just find that this energy is missing,
[22:23]right? This pure gratefulness that the world
[22:27]is finally listening to my words
[22:29]and my crazy ideas, right?
[22:31]And I just love that about Dave Hughes and that,
[22:34]although I love, love, love, the ideas
[22:37]that some of the more established authors are putting out,
[22:39]right? Like I devoured their books.
[22:41]Yes.
[22:41]Sometimes just don't see it as much in the interview itself.
[22:45]So that's why I'm really focused on Dave Hughes
[22:47]and I just, I love them and I wanna see more voices out there,
[22:52]more diverse books, more new ideas.
[22:54]And yeah, so I'm hooked.
[22:57]See, you get it, but you're not in debut author now
[23:00]and you still have all the energy, all the fields,
[23:02]everything. So, you know, there are exceptions to the rule.
[23:06]I think I soak it up from the debut authors
[23:08]that I talk to, right?
[23:09]Yeah. Maybe you could lunge a second one,
[23:11]like stuff more, stuff more.
[23:14]I don't know something with an S, right?
[23:16]It's funny you say that because, you know,
[23:17]now a bunch of the authors are coming out
[23:19]with their second books and they're all coming back to me
[23:21]and sending them and I'm like, oh yeah,
[23:23]I loved your first book.
[23:24]Of course I want to interview you again.
[23:27]So, yeah, I don't know. We'll see what happens.
[23:29]I struggled with what to do about that too
[23:32]on my podcast because at first I was like,
[23:35]oh no, I'm only gonna have people on once
[23:36]because I wanna get to know them.
[23:38]But then everyone's like, well, here's my next book
[23:39]and I'm like, well, I don't wanna not help you
[23:41]on your next book.
[23:42]Right.
[23:43]So anyway, I decided that was a stupid rule
[23:45]and I got rid of it.
[23:46]And I started having people back on
[23:48]because they kept writing really great books.
[23:50]So I'm trying to do like a, you know, 75% new,
[23:54]15% or 25% old repeat authors
[23:58]and generally that of course none of the math
[24:00]really translates but that is true.
[24:03]I mean, I feel like there's also a huge difference
[24:05]between authors who have it more as like a,
[24:09]like this is what I do when I write a book a year.
[24:12]Authors versus like, here's my second book
[24:15]and this one took me seven and a half years.
[24:16]And I mean, like there's a slight difference
[24:19]for the people who take it like a,
[24:22]you know, just like another job
[24:23]and this is what they do and they crank.
[24:25]Not that the books are any less good necessarily
[24:28]but just it's a different approach.
[24:30]Yeah, I'm in awe and I love talking to them too
[24:33]because they're like machines, right?
[24:35]And they have these big, brilliant ideas
[24:38]but then they just, you know, they're like,
[24:40]this is how I earn my living
[24:42]because this is how I'm gonna pay my rent
[24:43]and I'm gonna sit down and write this book every year.
[24:45]And you know, I think some people don't realize
[24:48]that writers also need to pay our rent or mortgage
[24:51]or whatever, right?
[24:53]For Nanny's babysitters, whatever it is
[24:56]and, you know, it is a business
[24:57]and we have to make money.
[24:58]And, you know, I think that a lot of those writers
[25:01]who are doing a book a year
[25:03]have that unspoken pressure of, you know,
[25:05]I need to make the money
[25:06]and they still write these brilliant books.
[25:08]And it's amazing.
[25:09]That does say writers that are doing every seven years
[25:11]don't need the money in the same way
[25:13]but, you know, I find that a lot of them,
[25:15]you know, putting books out a lot, you know,
[25:18]we end up talking about that
[25:20]in the life of a writer.
[25:21]It's been a, somebody, my co-founder of Zippy Book,
[25:24]Selenium and we were talking about,
[25:26]I think it was an aspiring author,
[25:27]somebody would put, I don't know if somebody
[25:29]and they said, are these, like,
[25:31]which of your authors are just authors
[25:33]and I remember leaving like, nobody is just an author anymore.
[25:37]Like, nobody can afford to do that.
[25:38]Like, everybody teaches, everybody, you know,
[25:41]does something else or freelances or something
[25:44]because it's very hard to cobble it together
[25:47]with just that.
[25:48]So, right, it is, right,
[25:50]because you've got to do a book a year
[25:52]is if you're not publishing, you're not getting paid.
[25:54]So, it's, you know, that is hard to do a book a year.
[25:58]I don't know that I could do that.
[26:00]Yeah, I mean, each book is so much,
[26:02]it's just the time to write it is one thing.
[26:05]Like, you could whip it out in three months even,
[26:07]but then you have all the editing
[26:09]and then all the marketing and the publicity
[26:11]and all that, I don't know, it's a lot.
[26:14]But just copy edits.
[26:15]I feel like I spent three months
[26:16]on a copy edits, right?
[26:18]Finding things like I send my character to the bathroom
[26:21]two times in one paragraph, right?
[26:24]These little details that you just can't have
[26:26]in a final draft, they just go to like a lot of time.
[26:28]I literally think I just did my like 18th round
[26:31]or something for my memoir.
[26:32]I'm like, this is like never gonna,
[26:34]I'm like, and they're finally like,
[26:35]we can't do any more changes.
[26:37]And I'm like, you know, like, wait, just add this over there.
[26:40]Yeah, it's like the endless,
[26:41]but ultimately that's why each book is like a team effort,
[26:45]right?
[26:46]And yes, that's why some of the aspiring authors
[26:49]feel discouraged because they're like,
[26:50]whoa, it comes out just like this
[26:52]and you're like, well, this is not my first draft, right?
[26:55]This is 500.
[26:57]Actually, so I had one of a more junior editor,
[26:59]Carmel Shaka at Grand Central,
[27:01]who went through a time again, an earlier draft.
[27:04]And she just went like line by line by line.
[27:07]This is the wrong time period, right?
[27:09]They don't, this happened five years after this happened, right?
[27:13]And she wouldn't have been wearing this skirt in 1990.
[27:17]You do these little details that you just need help with,
[27:19]you know, this team effort to get,
[27:21]even though I as the author have the big idea
[27:24]and the big characters, you could say, right?
[27:26]It still takes this whole group of people
[27:28]to shepherd me through to say like,
[27:30]no, your character went to the bathroom twice
[27:32]in this paragraph, like that can't happen.
[27:36]Yeah.
[27:36]I'm just, this last person just came in and edited mine.
[27:40]And I was like, oh, this person is good, like, she's right.
[27:43]Like this wasn't supposed to be here.
[27:45]And, you know, that wasn't the right book
[27:47]or whatever.
[27:48]I'm like, thank God for other people helping.
[27:50]Yes, yes, and copy editors.
[27:52]I swear they are amazing.
[27:54]Amazing.
[27:55]Under or celebrated, but so essential.
[27:57]Yes.
[27:58]So what's your, what's your next book?
[28:00]I'm assuming you're not on the one book of your train,
[28:02]but what do I know?
[28:03]Maybe you just think of the face
[28:04]and there's another one coming around the corner.
[28:06]I'm not on the one book of your train,
[28:08]but I am finishing up a draft of my third book.
[28:11]So we will see what happens,
[28:14]but that again, of course, has a very smart woman
[28:17]in the middle who is very good with numbers
[28:19]and actually is headed to Wall Street.
[28:22]And she will be a stock trader,
[28:23]but then is thrown off course.
[28:25]So, yes.
[28:27]What would Eric, it's about the year 2000, it starts.
[28:31]Okay, getting closer and closer.
[28:33]Yes, yes, getting closer.
[28:35]And yet I still find myself reaching back to mothers
[28:39]and grandmothers, right?
[28:40]I don't know.
[28:41]She still is very much in touch with her, great grandmother.
[28:45]And I think because I had such a strong, great aunt,
[28:48]my own grandmother died when I was very young
[28:50]and her sister was sort of like my grandmother
[28:52]and that great aunt was such a strong presence in my life.
[28:55]She was there all the time.
[28:57]And I feel like I, I find that I can't write a character
[28:59]without thinking about her, like having her in there
[29:02]because those women's voices are in my head, right?
[29:06]And go out there and be strong, be a strong woman
[29:09]and, you know, make your way in the world.
[29:12]And that's what I want for my daughter, for my characters.
[29:16]Right, for my books.
[29:17]So, I'll be there again.
[29:19]Well, it's amazing, I love it.
[29:21]Well, I feel like we've already given lots of advice
[29:23]for aspiring authors,
[29:24]but is there one parting piece of advice
[29:27]or this is my favorite question to ask authors, by the way,
[29:30]because it's amazing the range of answers that you get, right?
[29:33]I agree.
[29:34]I learned something every single time.
[29:36]Exactly, exactly.
[29:38]So, I always tell people my advice is you should write
[29:41]six days a week and writing could include time
[29:43]where you're taking a walk,
[29:45]thinking through a conversation, right?
[29:47]How is this going to work?
[29:48]It doesn't actually mean sitting at your computer.
[29:51]Although I do think you should at least open your file, right?
[29:54]At least five days a week and look at that book.
[29:57]And then I just think everyone should read seven days a week
[30:00]want to be a writer.
[30:01]Don't tell me you don't have time to read,
[30:03]because if you're not reading, like who's reading, right?
[30:07]Yeah.
[30:08]So before we go, I just want to show you
[30:09]because this is my first interview for this book.
[30:12]Oh, yeah, my new, yeah, I know.
[30:13]I'm going to take out my new pictures behind me.
[30:15]So this, in the top, this is actually the cosmic race
[30:19]station, the real one.
[30:21]That's all about air guts.
[30:22]Yeah.
[30:23]And this amazing National Geographic photographer
[30:26]did this whole special.
[30:27]And I was actually in touch with him.
[30:28]And he gave me permission to put his pictures on my website.
[30:32]This is his at the top there.
[30:33]And so when I talk about Anna being in her tower
[30:37]around the cosmic race station,
[30:39]this is what inspired them.
[30:40]It's a real place.
[30:41]Like, do you believe the Soviet Union built that
[30:44]and put people up in those towers to study cosmic raids?
[30:48]It's like unbelievable.
[30:50]So I have this picture.
[30:51]And then also, I'll move over even further,
[30:53]these are the computers that Anna was using
[30:56]to build her time machine.
[30:57]Unbelievable.
[30:58]I showed this to my kids.
[30:59]I was like, can you imagine?
[31:00]That was like a really super powerful computer.
[31:03]And it's probably not as powerful as the calculator
[31:05]you have right now.
[31:06]And yet, this is what Anna used to build her time machine.
[31:13]Like, this is what she had.
[31:14]And this is actually taken from inside the cosmic race
[31:17]station.
[31:18]This is the computing power that they had.
[31:20]So I just love these photos.
[31:22]And I do a lot of research through looking
[31:24]through archives and old photos.
[31:25]So I just wanted to show them to you.
[31:27]Because I think they're awesome.
[31:28]More powerful than the calculator
[31:30]that my daughter dropped this morning
[31:31]and went skittering in all these different pieces
[31:33]across the kitchen floor.
[31:34]And she's like, it's fine.
[31:35]I was like, I cannot order you another calculator.
[31:39]You know, these calculators are like,
[31:40]it's ridiculous, but anyway.
[31:42]Yes, I know.
[31:43]Right.
[31:44]And yet, look at this whole room of computers.
[31:46]And it could not do what that calculator did
[31:49]and say the broke on your kitchen floor.
[31:51]Yeah, hopefully not.
[31:53]We'll see.
[31:54]OK, Rachel, thank you.
[31:56]So this was so fun.
[31:57]I'm so excited for you for this book.
[31:59]I mean, it's bold and awesome
[32:02]and that covers awesome.
[32:04]And it's just really exciting.
[32:06]So my first Kirk is star.
[32:09]Yeah.
[32:11]I can't wait to see what happens with launch
[32:13]and everything I'll be following closely.
[32:15]And can't wait to see them.
[32:16]So thank you so much for having me.
[32:17]I always love chatting with you.
[32:19]And I just love how much you support authors and books
[32:23]and how you built this amazing community.
[32:24]So thank you for letting me be a part of it.
[32:26]I could say the same for you.
[32:28]So thank you.
[32:29]All right.
[32:30]Have a great day, Rachel.
[32:31]Thanks.
[32:31]You too.
[32:32]Bye, Zibi.
[32:33]Bye.
[32:35]Thanks for listening to this episode of Moms.
[32:37]Don't have time to read books.
[32:38]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram, at Zibi Owens.
[32:41]And at Moms, don't have time to read books.
[32:43]Also sign up for my newsletter at zibiowens.com
[32:46]and sign up for my virtual book club
[32:47]and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week.
[32:50]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan at Textures Sound
[32:53]for the Sound Editing.
[32:54]And thank you to Morning Moon Productions
[32:56]for providing this fantastic intro and now trim music.