Chelsea Bieker, HEARTBROKE
[0:01]Hi, this is Ziggy Owens, and you're listening to the award-winning podcast,
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[2:19]info at zibbyowens.com, and you will be entered to win one of 10 exciting care packages. So go off
[2:27]in order. Thank you so much. Bye. Chelsea Beaker is the author of Heart Broke. She's also the author
[2:33]of the novel Godshot, which was a finalist for both the Oregon and California Book Award,
[2:37]long-listed for the Center for Fictions First Novel Prize, and named Abarne's Noble Pick
[2:42]of the Month. Her short story collection Heart Broke came out in April 2022. Her writing has appeared
[2:49]in the Paris Review, Grandtah, The Cut, McSweeney's Let Have, Electric Literature, and others. She
[2:55]is the recipient of a Rona Jaffe Writers Award and a McDowell Colony Fellowship, originally from
[3:01]California Central Valley, which by the way is where mostly stories take place. She lives in Portland,
[3:06]Oregon with her husband and two children, where she is at work adapting Godshot for the screen,
[3:11]and writing her third book, a novel about motherhood. All right, welcome Chelsea. Thanks so much
[3:16]for coming on Momstone. Have time to read books to discuss Heart Broke. Thank you so much,
[3:20]Sibi. It's such an honor to be here. I love your podcast and I'm just so inspired by all the things
[3:27]you do and how you're lifting up authors. So it's a joy. Oh, that's really nice. Thank you. Okay,
[3:33]I have to tell you that I was putting my son to bed the other night when I was reading your book,
[3:39]and right when I had started your book a few nights ago, and he was like, sometimes he asks me to
[3:44]read him what I'm about to read because usually I read to him. I put him to bed and then I sit
[3:48]by the side of his bed and I read. And this time he was like, read me your book and I was like,
[3:52]okay. Oh, no, this was not the book. I should be reading aloud. So next thing you know, I'm like
[3:58]skipping all of these words and like spider. I'm like, why is it going? Okay. Well, you know,
[4:04]and oh, my gosh, it was not the right book to do that, but it was delightful to read out loud.
[4:10]I'm shaking my head now. I'm like, that's not the book for me. Not the book. No, not the book for
[4:14]bedtime. Although he did fall red to sleep. So I don't know what that says. Okay. Well, why don't
[4:20]you tell listeners a little bit about what Heart Broke is about. Yeah, so this is a collection of
[4:26]stories. And they all take place in California Central Valley. That's the place that I grew up
[4:32]mostly. And it's really a place that I've returned to a lot in my fiction writing. I think that
[4:37]when people think about California, they are not thinking about the Central Valley. It's such an
[4:43]interesting place. It's a unique place. And it's also where so much of the world food comes from.
[4:49]But I think mostly people are like, yeah, I've passed through there on the 99 on my way to LA.
[4:54]You know, it's like this sort of scene is this kind of, I don't know, one cow town. That's what
[5:00]what exactly is. What is considered, like what towns from what to what is the Central Valley?
[5:05]I mean, I grew up in Fresno, which is really the center of it. It's almost directly in the
[5:11]middle of California. And then I always imagine like Sacramento being kind of this northern point of
[5:17]it all the way down to, I guess, like Bakersfield. So that's just off, like right in the middle.
[5:24]And so a lot of the stories are set there, most of them actually. And I've kind of tweaked it a
[5:30]little bit where they're kind of adjacent. They're often like, I'll use fictional names for towns.
[5:37]I really wanted the freedom to use that as my base and then make it my own. I did a similar
[5:43]thing with my novel Godshot, which came out in 2020. They kind of exist in the same world. And these
[5:49]stories I wrote at the same time as my novel. And there's even like some overlapping characters.
[5:55]There's a lot of similar themes. And sometimes I would take a break from writing my novel and I
[6:01]would write a story because the stories began to feel like this great escape for me. And stories
[6:07]are really my first love and what I started writing originally. So this book tracks, you know,
[6:14]the last 10 or 11 years of my writing, a lot of these I started just so long ago. So it's been
[6:20]interesting to walk with them over the last decade and do like one final revision last year and just
[6:27]see, I mean, a lot of it was like, wow, where did I think of that? You know, it's like you
[6:32]changed so much in that time. And I would say a lot of the stories really centered around this
[6:37]broken child's parent relationship. We're hearing a lot from mothers. We're hearing a lot from
[6:44]and fathers and also from children. And kind of I would say the connecting
[6:50]sin you hear is really what happens when the bonds of those relationships are broken and tested.
[6:56]So it's hard to say what the book is about because each story is about its own thing. But I think
[7:01]that's kind of what is uniting a lot of these pieces together. So basically this is the product
[7:06]of your procrastination from writing novels. This is what you did on the side.
[7:12]Yeah, I finished my novel and I was like, hey, wait, there's actually the second book too
[7:17]that I love just as much and and feels like just as close to me. So that was that was cool.
[7:23]That was amazing. I must have been very good news for your agent. Yeah, yeah.
[7:28]You're like, I also have this one just sitting here. I love it. Yeah. By the way, I love the cover
[7:34]of this and also of Godshot. Who is your cover designer? Do you know who it is? They're like,
[7:39]yes. Yeah, she's awesome. Her name's Nicole Caputo. And she does a lot of the catapult cover.
[7:45]She does covers for other houses too. But she really just had an immediate vision for both of
[7:50]the books. And I immediately was like, yes. So there really was no dancing around like
[7:56]tweaks or different covers. It was only really after the fact of the books kind of us confirming
[8:03]the covers that I would see like what the other options had been. And yeah, and these were always
[8:09]she kind of got it right on the first try. So I love the covers too. I think she had a real way
[8:14]of pinpointing a tiny, tiny detail in the book and blowing it up in a way that
[8:21]that is surprising, but also I think works. So thanks for saying that.
[8:25]It's funny. No, I love it. Maybe because I used to eat these candy things, candy necklaces.
[8:31]Yeah. Constantly is a child and all of that. So the first story at least,
[8:36]mamas don't let your babies go up to be minors. This story is, I mean, it's dark. It's hard.
[8:41]It's sort of, it's very sad about a minor and relationship with how an injury really affects
[8:46]the relationship. And, and that's something that I feel like is super relatable and applicable
[8:52]to so many situations, like even something as simple as like a knee injury or something
[8:56]today, right? It changes the dynamic, like everything that happens to each person in this
[9:00]unit really can throw off the whole thing in a way. So talk to me about that and how, you know,
[9:06]how it takes so little on us for a relationship to be stressed in this way and how did it
[9:11]how to repair it or maybe not, maybe not possible. But yeah, I think with this story,
[9:16]I was really wanting to examine kind of this, the narrator has grown up under her parents who
[9:23]had this kind of abusive controlling relationship. And she feels like because she's seen this
[9:28]and knows what it's about, she won't fall in the same trap. And then she kind of finds herself
[9:34]in the same trap. You know, yeah, the, the shiny veneer of the relationship is sabotaged by this
[9:40]injury where it's like that marks this moment where I think this minor that she's with, his,
[9:47]his true personality is true addictions. All of the, that darkness is able to really come out
[9:52]because he's been sort of couch rhythm. He, he's been taking, everything's taken away and he relies on
[9:59]her.
[10:00]in this extreme way.
[10:01]So it highlights, I think,
[10:03]what was always probably wrong in the relationship
[10:07]that she just wasn't quite seen.
[10:08]And so we watch her journey through this,
[10:12]often as it is an abusive relationship,
[10:14]you know, it is this journey of like reckoning
[10:17]with the truth that you really don't wanna look at.
[10:20]And so I wanted to examine that up close with this story.
[10:24]And it was just such a pattern
[10:25]that I would watch my own mother go through again and again
[10:29]with men, where as a child watching that,
[10:32]you're like, do you never learn?
[10:33]Do you, we know, we know logically the warning side.
[10:38]We know the red flags, but then when you're in it,
[10:41]something else takes over.
[10:42]And it is this whole psychological thing
[10:45]that you could talk about for hours.
[10:46]But I think from the child's perspective
[10:47]or the young woman's perspective,
[10:49]it's more black and white.
[10:50]You're just like, well, you're stupid if you fall into that trap.
[10:54]I'll never do that.
[10:55]And then she finds herself right there.
[10:57]So I wanted to kind of look at that in this story.
[11:00]Well, I'm sorry, your mom went through that
[11:02]and that you're the child of this situation.
[11:06]Have you had moments where you had to fight against that
[11:10]in terms of your own choices of partner
[11:12]or has it come up or have you just like examined it to death?
[11:15]And now it's not even a fly in the horizon or whatever.
[11:20]It's really funny because I think people always say like,
[11:23]oh, you marry your father.
[11:25]And I was actually raised by primarily my grandparents
[11:29]from like age nine to 17.
[11:32]And I was like, well, I definitely did not marry my father.
[11:35]Like my husband is so different from my dad.
[11:38]He's different from this like stereotypes
[11:41]of the abuse of man or any of the control lead.
[11:44]I definitely went in this other direction.
[11:46]But then lately, I've been like,
[11:47]I think actually I married my grandmother.
[11:49]Oh.
[11:51]I was like, I still kind of did that,
[11:53]but not the way that you would think.
[11:55]So I mean, yeah, I continue to think about
[11:59]the domestic violence that I grew up around
[12:01]because I've really seen the ways in my adult life,
[12:04]the way that that trauma and that violence
[12:06]doesn't really just die out because it's over.
[12:10]I'm still affected by it.
[12:11]And I may not be affected by it
[12:13]in this like present relationship,
[12:15]but it's still sort of there.
[12:17]And I think that's kind of how trauma works.
[12:19]And so it's that daily work of unpacking that.
[12:23]And processing that and I think a lot of this book
[12:25]is my subconscious doing a lot of work around
[12:28]those kind of bigger questions.
[12:29]We don't have to talk about this if you don't want.
[12:31]Although you said you could talk about it for hours.
[12:33]So let's just give it like two minutes.
[12:34]It's totally, I don't have to talk about it.
[12:37]So what happened between age of zero and nine with your,
[12:40]and then winded, you end up living with your grandparents
[12:43]and like how much were you privy to
[12:44]and how much you remember or, you know, all that?
[12:50]From about zero to six, I lived in Hawaii with both parents.
[12:55]And there were some times where we would come back to Fresno
[12:59]and like leave my dad and then return.
[13:01]And there was some back and forth,
[13:02]but primarily those were like the solid years
[13:05]where my parents were still trying to go and have it.
[13:09]And then when I was six, my mom and I moved to Fresno
[13:13]and lived alone for six to nine.
[13:15]And those were some really dark years
[13:18]because she was very addicted to alcohol and drugs.
[13:21]And she was alone and it was just not, it was not good.
[13:26]And eventually I was taken away
[13:27]in place with my grandparents when she left.
[13:30]And then they raised me.
[13:32]So my grandfather had the lived in Fresno for most of his life.
[13:36]He founded the agriculture department at Fresno State.
[13:40]They were very, I don't know.
[13:42]I always think about how they really did save me
[13:44]from a lot more trauma
[13:46]than I would have acute if I'd stayed with my mom.
[13:49]But you know, my mom leading is still like
[13:51]this greatest heartbreak of my life.
[13:53]It's something that's always there.
[13:55]It's super difficult, especially when raising your own kids.
[13:59]As my daughter gets older, she's kind of reaching the ages
[14:02]that I was when so many of those things were happening.
[14:05]It's almost like I received, right?
[14:07]Cause you're like, oh my God, I can't believe
[14:10]that was going on in my life at her age.
[14:12]She's almost eight.
[14:14]And you almost have to like re-wrap your head around it.
[14:18]And that's why therapists exist.
[14:20]And I think that's also kind of why I've always been drawn
[14:26]to writing because you're asking like how much do I remember?
[14:29]Well, I think the truth was always skewed.
[14:31]And people were always there to kind of tell you like,
[14:33]well, that didn't really have better.
[14:35]It wasn't that bad.
[14:36]And I think from a young age, I just felt like
[14:39]I needed to write things down to make sense of them.
[14:43]I needed to see them on paper to see what was true.
[14:46]And that was really a driver, I think,
[14:49]from a super young age.
[14:50]They should really just pair you with a therapist
[14:52]when you like get an MFA or submit an article or an essay.
[14:56]Right? It should be a required part of 100%.
[15:00]Everybody's got stuff that needs to be worked through.
[15:03]So although maybe not.
[15:05]Cause maybe then the literature wouldn't be as good.
[15:07]And so I take it back.
[15:08]Yeah, maybe never know.
[15:10]Never know.
[15:11]Do you like it before and after or something?
[15:13]Could you?
[15:14]Experimental control group or something?
[15:16]Well, that is really, really hard.
[15:18]And I'm sorry that that happened.
[15:20]Are you in touch with your mom, is she?
[15:22]Yes, I am.
[15:23]I mean, we've had a full relationship mostly.
[15:26]I've only seen her a couple times since I was nine.
[15:30]And she lives in New Mexico.
[15:32]And as she gets older, it's ever more heartbreaking, right?
[15:37]To watch what does late stage alcoholism look like?
[15:41]Well, I can tell you it's really ugly.
[15:44]And there's nothing.
[15:45]I don't know.
[15:46]People, I think have a stereotype of the alcoholic.
[15:49]And in my mind, I was always like, well,
[15:52]some of those are cracked, but then some don't even
[15:55]begin to touch it, you know?
[15:57]And so it is really hard.
[15:59]I have to be boundary, especially through the pandemic
[16:03]and going through the stress, like my dad died,
[16:05]everything just seemed a hit in those two years.
[16:08]Everyone's had a really hard time.
[16:12]And then it's like compounded by loss and grief
[16:14]and all these different things.
[16:15]But I've had to really practice and learn
[16:19]just how much I can handle energetically with her.
[16:22]And really, how powerless I am with her choices.
[16:26]That's been a great lesson, especially in my early 20s,
[16:30]when I really wanted to save her.
[16:31]And I was willing to go on this road trip to New Mexico
[16:35]and do this intervention and do all these big gestures,
[16:38]thinking that it would be the only way I could sleep at night
[16:42]or feel guilt-free if I had just said everything I could.
[16:45]And so I do feel like in some way, I've done everything I could.
[16:49]And it's like no matter what, you're still
[16:51]going to feel bad about it.
[16:52]So my eyes will protect yourself at this point.
[16:54]And I just don't, yeah.
[16:56]So it's about boundaries.
[16:58]But on her good days, my mom is so funny.
[17:02]She's such a storyteller.
[17:03]Actually, the story you mentioned, the minor story,
[17:06]was totally inspired by her.
[17:07]And a college essay that she wrote
[17:09]that I found in our storage unit.
[17:11]She was such a good writer.
[17:13]She had many talents.
[17:14]And so I try really hard to look at those good parts
[17:19]of her when I can.
[17:20]There were many.
[17:22]Yeah.
[17:23]Her life was a sad life.
[17:25]What do you tell your daughter?
[17:26]Well, she's never met.
[17:28]My daughter, I will buy Christmas presents
[17:33]on behalf of my mom, things like that.
[17:35]My daughter has maybe a vague idea
[17:38]that a grandmother exists somewhere in the distance.
[17:41]But she hasn't asked too many questions.
[17:44]I'm kind of waiting for the questions to roll in.
[17:47]I'll tell her little anecdotes here and there
[17:50]when they see when it seems fitting.
[17:52]But yeah, I really wanted to not put too much of it on her.
[17:57]She did see me reading this Al-Anon day by day book
[18:01]the other day.
[18:02]She was like, I'm going to read it to you.
[18:04]And she read it.
[18:06]And she's like, I don't really get what they're saying.
[18:07]And I was like, yeah, well, it's kind of written for people
[18:09]who, and I tried to explain addiction.
[18:13]And she just kind of looked at me blankly
[18:15]and was like, whatever.
[18:16]And I'm like, oh, that's so wonderful
[18:21]that you don't even register with this means
[18:23]because already at your age, I've been to thousands
[18:27]of AA meetings crawling under everyone's chairs.
[18:32]So it's cool on one hand that she isn't tuned into it.
[18:35]That was the whole point of having good,
[18:38]so having a better life.
[18:39]But at the same time, I know there will come a day
[18:41]where I'll tell her the more of the story
[18:44]and more of her family with it's lineage.
[18:47]Have you thought about writing a memoir?
[18:50]Oh, yes.
[18:51]I've thought about it.
[18:52]I don't feel ready yet.
[18:54]I've written some essays that have been really amazing
[18:58]the feedback I've gotten from the essays
[19:00]that I've written.
[19:01]I mean, people just respond so much to those real stories
[19:05]and so many people would write, like, oh my God,
[19:08]like this is, I grew up like this too,
[19:10]or, you know, and that really felt like, okay,
[19:14]maybe there would be a time where I'd want to write a book
[19:17]about this, but right now, like fiction feels like
[19:21]the way that I can explore some of these things.
[19:24]And I don't know a way that feels more free for me
[19:28]at this time, but you never know.
[19:30]Maybe I just need a little more time
[19:32]to kind of process some things first.
[19:35]Just no rush.
[19:36]There's no rush.
[19:37]There's no rush.
[19:38]Yeah.
[19:39]I have a lot of friends who write memoir
[19:40]and I'm like, that looks hard.
[19:43]Like, I'll write it as hard,
[19:45]but a memoir is its own particular thing.
[19:49]It's very vulnerable.
[19:50]So I feel like fiction is much harder
[19:53]and I've tried to do that than, I don't know.
[19:55]I feel like I start trying to write fiction and I'm like,
[19:58]all right, well, like who can I?
[20:00]dress up but is really an actual person that I can not write because like
[20:04]conjuring up completely false people are like not false but just like making a
[20:10]person out of nothing. I'm not good at that. That's like a real gift. Like people
[20:16]are like, oh yeah, I know what she eats for breakfast. I'm like, how? How do you know
[20:21]this much about a person who doesn't exist? But it's true. And then you read
[20:24]novels and you get to know them just as well. So then I feel like people
[20:28]anyway, it's a gift. All I'm saying is I feel like that is the true gift. I
[20:31]shouldn't say that. Now I'm now I'm denigrating memoirs which I'm
[20:35]including myself in the sky. But anyway, they're beautiful memoirs. Everything is
[20:41]okay. Let me get myself out of this hole. Okay. All I'm saying is for me total
[20:47]fiction seems harder end of story. So yeah, I totally understand. I think it's
[20:53]there's something for me that feels scary or like entrapping with the
[20:58]details already said. It's like with a memoir, it's like, well, the details. Like
[21:02]the story is set. Like what happens has happened. It's already there. And I
[21:06]think some people are comforted by that and can really work with that
[21:09]structure. And then maybe someone like me is like, oh, that feels really
[21:13]confining. Like I actually want to be able to change the names of towns and
[21:17]like blend two people into one. And that feels more comforting to me. So I
[21:22]think, you know, many people do both. But there is sort of that inherent
[21:26]difference. Interesting. This is probably why I haven't like built a house from
[21:30]scratch. That's like so overwhelming to me. I would much prefer to like take a
[21:34]house and make like little tweaks and totally. Anyway, it's a very sorry. That was
[21:41]it. Anyway, okay. So what else are you working on now? Anything else you have
[21:45]stored up to delight your agents with? Yeah. So I am working on a new novel.
[21:52]And it's pretty different than these last two books. I would say that it's, I mean,
[21:57]it has an adult narrative perspective versus like a more adolescent perspective.
[22:03]And it's all about motherhood. And so it's sort of like looping back to how we
[22:08]started the interview. It's a lot about, you know, what does it mean to like
[22:12]mother your own children with this sort of haunting past behind you. And what
[22:18]is what are the effects of that? And most of the effects of that I think are not
[22:21]seen, you know, day to day. You just see this mother in the grocery store.
[22:26]She looks like a normal mother or whatever. But, but what's behind that? And
[22:30]like what's in four means a lot of that. And so it's really inspired by after
[22:35]I weaned my daughter from breastfeeding when she was two, I had like weaning
[22:40]induced anxiety and depression, which I didn't even know could happen. I
[22:45]hadn't really had traditional like postpartum depression. And I just, it
[22:51]really hit me unexpected. I was like, what is going on? And then come to find
[22:55]out it's a, it's a semi-common thing that happens. So I was like, I really want to
[22:59]write about that too. So it's still a lot about that experience of motherhood.
[23:04]All the things that nobody tells us. And, and then, you know, this character
[23:09]who's really dealing with some extreme past secrets, there's kind of a twist in
[23:15]there. So it's been a really fun book to write. Still in the midst of writing it.
[23:20]Sounds amazing. Is this where you write? Like, where you're doing this now?
[23:25]It is. I got this little corner in here. We've moved into this house in July. So
[23:30]still kind of figure anything about, but where are you in the world? Are you still
[23:34]in California? No, I'm in Portland, Oregon. Oh, nice. Awesome. Yeah. Well, we should be
[23:39]a beautiful light. A beautiful light in there. And yeah, we had some sun yesterday, but
[23:44]today it's where you can get. And when you're working on a novel or when you're working on
[23:50]short stories or whatever, do you get up? Like, do you, are you very structured with your time?
[23:54]Or do you just sort of, like, how do you do it? How do you approach it?
[23:59]Well, when I was writing these two books, I have two children. My son is almost four.
[24:03]You know, when I started this, I had no children. And so my work approach was so different than
[24:12]and then a lot of it was written when my daughter was born and in those first years where
[24:18]I was just so scared. I think of losing that practice that it was like any minute she had her
[24:25]eyes closed asleep. I was like a keyboard obsessively. And I really developed this pretty
[24:31]exhausting productivity where it was like, anytime she was asleep, I felt that I had to be writing.
[24:37]And I think that served me well for many years. But after the birth of my son,
[24:44]my body was just like, I'm tired. But like, I need more balance. And so now it's sort of this
[24:51]question. I'm like, how do I get a little more balance? I don't want to only use their sleep time
[24:57]for work, you know, and they get older and your time changes and you get more space, which is
[25:02]slowly now happening for me with my son being back in school. But I think it's just now I'm shifting
[25:08]into wanting those longer stretches a little bit. And so now I kind of now it's like if he's in
[25:14]school and I'm paying for preschool, like that has to be my fiction writing time. So it's kind of
[25:20]the same like pressure I'm putting myself, but a little bit, I guess a little bit different. But
[25:25]yeah, it's just like I've always said like never underestimate 30 minutes. Truly, like I can really
[25:33]you can get a lot done in 30 minutes. You can really crack open a scene in 30 minutes. You can figure
[25:39]out one detail of a character that's going to carry you for the next writing session. So for me,
[25:43]it's all about just taking advantage of the time that I do have. And PC is a lot of piecing
[25:50]together. And honestly, it doesn't look graceful at all. I am like ridiculously impressed
[25:56]that you got it done with such little kids. But that's all this work. It's really awesome.
[26:01]So that's off. That's off to you. Look at all the things you're doing. I mean,
[26:05]my kids are older now. I mean, my littleest one is seven. So okay, yeah, it's just I look up to
[26:13]mothers who have like their youngest is like seven or eight. And I'm like wow, you've really
[26:17]injured a different dementia, right? Because my son is still like walking into traffic. Like
[26:23]he's still like a baby. You know, we're still in that moment where there's a lot of just like
[26:28]his accountability that goes on. But now with my daughter, I'm like, oh, you're just like a
[26:32]disperson in the world. Like it's a totally different not that we don't have a lot of
[26:38]things with her. It's but it's more emotional, right? It's like less like
[26:43]picking you up from the slide and all that like intense watching isn't. Yes.
[26:48]The fear shifts. The fear shifts. So there's some ways but it shifts. Yeah. I'm not worried
[26:56]they're going to fall down the stairs if I turn right. Which is nice. I think so matically
[27:01]to let that go a little bit because that's like, that is where I carry a lot of my stress is
[27:05]that constant worry. Yep. It's like this evolutionary imperative to be alert. You know, what you're
[27:11]saying about post weaning anxiety. And I'm like, I feel like I have had those more than
[27:16]anxiety for 15 years of it. Yeah. It may be true. I didn't get it. Mine like predated my kids too.
[27:23]So I can't really set us an excuse. But yeah, there's a lot to be nervous about, you know,
[27:28]well, anyway, that sounded depressing. But I don't think I realized just how much
[27:35]better it would get when all the kids were seven and up. I think seven is the big turning point.
[27:39]That's my two cents. I thought I would be kindergarten and it wasn't.
[27:44]Sorry. Sorry to talk to both of us for anybody. I think we're in kindergarten to be the saving
[27:48]grace, but give it a little more time. I agree with you. Five was still right. Yeah.
[27:56]I think seven is the turning point. Okay. Last question and you've kind of answered this already,
[28:01]but for advice for aspiring authors. Yeah. So I did talk about, you know, taking advantage of
[28:07]the shorter times, but I would also really say that I would, I hope, what I hope for aspiring
[28:13]writers is that they can really love their own writing. One thing about writing that I go back to
[28:19]is that it's a joyful practice. Like, I'm having a lot of fun writing. I'm laughing out loud. I'm
[28:25]like rereading what I wrote and dying laughing. Like, sometimes I'm crying when I'm writing. Like,
[28:30]it's this whole body to experience. But at the end of the day, I love my own work. Like, if you
[28:36]don't really love your own work, why would you expect somebody else to want to read it or love it?
[28:40]Like, I think it's important to try. You know, as writers were so self critical, there's this stereotype
[28:47]of the writer who's just like, you know, embedded with nothing but doubt. And there's a lot of
[28:52]talking about a hard writing is. And it is hard. I'm not saying it's not, but I'm saying there's also a
[28:57]room for another perspective where actually it's joyful and actually you love what you're doing.
[29:05]and you have that confidence. And I think that can help you see through the difficult parts of writing,
[29:10]like rejection and times where it doesn't feel easy and really hone in on those moments where
[29:16]where it's by and your loving the project that you're working on. So have the confidence,
[29:22]I would say, or aspire to. Yeah, aspire to confidence. Yeah, aspire to confidence.
[29:29]And you don't have to answer this either. But is that your natural hair color? Are you naturally
[29:33]blonde like that? As a child, I probably was more of a shade. I definitely have some highlights
[29:39]going on. But it was never like brown. No, no, always kind of, I guess my natural color,
[29:46]which I did see during the pandemic finally, which grew out to like my years or my chin,
[29:53]is sort of like this strawberry blonde, I guess. There's a lot of red in it I didn't know about.
[30:00]Cool. Yeah, but as soon as I could, I got into that salon. It was like brighten me up, baby. Yeah, so
[30:07]I get it. I get it. My hair has turned like black as I've gotten older. So, you know, yeah, it changes to the texture changes. All of that.
[30:16]Anyway, but obviously these are the good problems to have
[30:20]Absolutely. Yeah.
[30:22]Well, thank you. Thank you for being so open and honest and letting me sort of dig into your past and being so kind about it.
[30:29]So thank you. Yeah, it's my joy to talk to you, Zippy. Thank you. Okay. Thanks a lot. Bye. Bye
[30:37]Thanks for listening to this episode of moms don't have time to read books.
[30:40]Don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens and at moms don't have time to read books
[30:45]Also sign up for my newsletter at zippyowans.com and sign up for my virtual book club and meet lots of authors on Zoom every other week
[30:52]Thanks so much to Steve and Ryan in fact texture sound for the sound editing and
[30:56]Thank you to morning moon productions for providing this fantastic intro and out trim music